Could Redcloak be redeemed?

[The Pale King]

I've just read Start of Darkness, and I've been wondering something. Could Redcloak ever seek Redemption? I hope so, at least, if only to see Xykon get what he deserves for the end of SoD. But, personally, I don't know. I have a feeling that Redcloak may be destined to be a tragic character, and won't survive the comic. What do you guys think?

[Cracklord]

He killed his brother. A pep talk ain't going to cut it.

I want him to die, but I want him to die by being unmade by the Snarl, whith Xykon dying beside him. Bonus points if Redcloak is laughing as it happens.

[Sewblon]

Unlikely, Redcloak has never expressed interest in redemption.


He killed his brother. A pep talk ain't going to cut it.

I want him to die, but I want him to die by being unmade by the Snarl, whith Xykon dying beside him. Bonus points if Redcloak is laughing as it happens.

You seem want the Snarl to unmake allot of characters.

[CrazySopher]

Redcloak is pretty knee deep here, it's hard to tell. But I think you can definitely tell this change is coming over him when he's commanding the armies and fighting the siege against the Azure City (when he starts getting on the summoned elephant, to be more exact). Redcloak, I think, isn't really all that Evil. Angry, yes. Vengeful, yes. But I don't think these are static so much as... I dunno, emotional status effects.

He does, admittedly, pull a whole bunch of stuff for Xykon that rings of Asmodeus welcoming him home with open arms once he kicks the bucket... if he dies right now. Redcloak is starting to realize just how much leeway is being afforded him as far as dealing with Xykon, and I think he's eventually going to try and either get the old man out of power, or simply abandon the "cause" as it were. He's got plenty cause for redemption.

[The Blackbird]

I think it's likely that Redcloak will betray Xykon, Redcloak's goals and Xykon's goals don't mix well.

To redeem, I hope for, but am uncertain of.

[Cracklord]

You seem want the Snarl to unmake allot of characters.

I think that would be the best ending for the two of them, thats all.

I don't want the Snarl to unmake anyone, particularly Belkar, as then he would miss out on his eternal reward, i.e being sent to the fourth layer of hell to meet Bael, or the Abyss to meet Gra'zzt. And he better hope they don't find him attractive...

[Querzis]

You know, while SoD apparently made lots of people like Redcloak more, it did the opposite to me. Before I thought he could be redeemed and I thought he was sympathetic. But now? No way. He killed his freaking brother and doomed his people before admitting he could be wrong or before trying to change. There is no redemption for Redcloak and there shoudnt be. Betrayal? Yes he could betray Xykon (betraying Xykon at the end as always been part of the Plan after all) but redemption? No freaking way. Hes as bad as Xykon in his own way and even if its mostly through anger and following his god, it doesnt change anything as far as I'm concerned.

And by the way, if he betray Xykon, he will fail. Xykon is a lot more dangerous then Redcloak could ever hope to be and, unlike what some think, Xykon as proved lots of time that its actually really hard to outsmart him. Dont confuse not knowing with not caring.

[Sewblon]

I think that would be the best ending for the two of them, thats all.

I don't want the Snarl to unmake anyone, particularly Belkar, as then he would miss out on his eternal reward, i.e being sent to the fourth layer of hell to meet Bael, or the Abyss to meet Gra'zzt. And he better hope they don't find him attractive...

Belkar might eventually get into that last part, with the rumors about him and Mr.Scruffy being an item...

[CrazySopher]

And by the way, if he betray Xykon, he will fail. Xykon is a lot more dangerous then Redcloak could ever hope to be and, unlike what some think, Xykon as proved lots of time that its actually really hard to outsmart him. Dont confuse not knowing with not caring.

Perhaps. In fact, maybe even likely. Xykon will pretend to be stupid for a while, let Redcloak feel more secure, draw him in. At the same time though, I don't think that the Order is gonna be able to knock him off either without at least suitably ambushing him beforehand, or at least some sort of pre-emptive strike after a LOT of preparation. If Redcloak turns the tables and suddenly makes it 7 against 1, then Xykon has a lot to deal with at once.

[Mystic Muse]

I think he can be redeemed. Mainly due to personal beliefs.

as for if he wants to be redeemed. I doubt that. I think in the end he'll betray Xykon and get a redemption is death ending. Joining the goodguys is highly unlikely though.

[CrazySopher]

Oh no, he wouldn't form any sort of alliance with the Order. But if he's looking for a good time to kill Xykon, there won't be a better one than when he's got his hands full with the Order. Unless Redcloak can somehow sneak himself something that Xykon absolutely needs, or has some sort of secret or piece of information that Xykon is going to try and grab, I can't think of any other opportunity.

[alegollama]

I don't see Redcloak ever being redeemed, and here's why:
Although he does exhibit a measure of conscience in regard to sending goblins and hobgoblins to their deaths, he still, absolutely hates humans/elves! Wouldn't a requirement for redemption be "not being... speciesist?

[Mystic Muse]

I don't see Redcloak ever being redeemed, and here's why:
Although he does exhibit a measure of conscience in regard to sending goblins and hobgoblins to their deaths, he still, absolutely hates humans/elves! Wouldn't a requirement for redemption be "not being... speciesist?

If so then something's wrong with the gods from what I've heard.

[CrazySopher]

I don't see Redcloak ever being redeemed, and here's why:
Although he does exhibit a measure of conscience in regard to sending goblins and hobgoblins to their deaths, he still, absolutely hates humans/elves! Wouldn't a requirement for redemption be "not being... speciesist?

How many good-aligned characters do you think completely hate Goblins and Hobgoblins and still make it to Celestia? Quitting on his speciesist tendencies will earn him major Good points, I think, and would get him to leave (or attempt to leave) Xykon a whole lot quicker, but even if he gets nothing more than a grudging respect for the Order and humankind in general, it would be major headway towards Redcloak's redemption.

[The Extinguisher]

Redcloak will never be redeemed. Ever.

He'll probably end up betraying Xykon near the end of and fail. Miserably. Redcloak cannot stand up to him, and he's proven time and time again just how much of Xykon's **** he will take. He killed his own brother just to convince himself that every goblin that Xykon has killed wasn't his fault.

[Bibliomancer]

It depends on who is assigning morality: the gods, DnD rules, or some grand OotS alignment system. The gods seem to have made the goblins evil by definition (according to the goblins, anyways) and so there wouldn't be much that Redcloak could do to break out of that. Under DnD rules, he still falls under the evil category, but more narrowly. He is reluctant to engage in unnecessary acts of cruelty but will use torture and slavery when they are useful. Under the more gray OotS rules as shown so far, he has a fighting chance of saving himself, especially if the dynamic between him and Xykon continues to change.

[David Argall]

Of course Redcloak can be redeemed. The cliche is called the heel face turn [or something like that] over at tropes. The villain turning into Mr. Wonderful at a moment's notice happens in all sorts of stories. And we have a few hints of how it might happen to Redcloak.
Personally I deem it unlikely and not desirable, but that is what I thought of the split party idea too.

[veti]

What David said. Anyone can be redeemed. Even Xykon could be redeemed, though I can't easily imagine what it would take. In Redcloak's case it's quite easily imaginable. Which is one reason why it probably won't happen.

"Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone." And I'm pretty sure it's not for Redcloak.

Besides, what would he want to be redeemed from, exactly? He's been a loyal servant of the Dark One, why wouldn't he want to be judged by Him in death?

[Zevox]

Besides, what would he want to be redeemed from, exactly? He's been a loyal servant of the Dark One, why wouldn't he want to be judged by Him in death?
Actually, we don't know what role, if any, the gods play in judging the dead. Roy's judgment seems to indicate they're non-essential, but he of course wasn't really religious, which could make a big difference in that matter.

Zevox

[Thanatosia]

Redcloak went over the moral event horizon sadly IMO, and I for one will be very disapointed if he was 'redeemed'. That is not to say i'm unsympathetic to his character, he makes me sad... but he crossed the line way too far with Righteye. Not so much even in killing him IMO, but by giving into Xykons order to Reanimate him. That was his last chance to balls up and face the hard truth of what he had become, and Xykon rubed his nose right into it so roughly that there could never ever be any doubt that it was his last chance to ever turn from the path. He may betray Xykon in the end, but I think he's beyond Redemption.

This thread should probably be tagged as SOD spoilers btw.

[FoE]

The cliche is called the heel face turn [or something like that] over at tropes.

I take exception to you calling it a "cliche". Redemption is hardly an overused storytelling device.


Besides, what would he want to be redeemed from, exactly? He's been a loyal servant of the Dark One, why wouldn't he want to be judged by Him in death?

Exactly. What is he to be redeemed from? Serving the interests of the goblin people?

[Elfey]

I want Redcloak to get his deepest wish. His real wish, where Goblins and Hobgoblins, and all other goblinoids are granted equality.

I think his own redemption is impossible, even at death. It is not his specisism, but his own tendencies for violence and hatred, his own willingness to send the world to hell if only give a better chance for his people that damns him. I think it's pretty clear Redcloak knows this and is ok with it. He will realize how petty and cruel it's been. I suspect Elan may write a tragic opera about him.

Some may say his death will redeem him. I think his death will only give him peace, and perhaps his goal, but not true redemption. Redcloak is a tragic hero, and his is a tragic dream.

[factotum]

Oh no, he wouldn't form any sort of alliance with the Order. But if he's looking for a good time to kill Xykon, there won't be a better one than when he's got his hands full with the Order.

Well, the crucial part there is "if he's looking for a good time to kill Xykon". He isn't. He needs a high level arcane caster to finish the Plan, and after all Redcloak has done in the name of that, he isn't going to get rid of the only high level caster who believes in it as much as he does. (Albeit he lied about it to Xykon in the first place, but that was when Xykon was human and thus down a few points on Int and Wis compared to how he is now).

[B. Dandelion]

Well, hell. I guess I'm gonna have to stand against the majority here and say yes.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for redemption stories in general. I often find things to sympathize with even in characters I'd freely call unlikable if not outright evil (or both). I'm not always on the redemption bandwagon for those guys though. There are characters I can find it in myself to pity but don't think could make the turn. Some of those "unlikable" characters are those I'd just rather not see turn just because I selfishly don't want to see more of 'em, or see something so good happen to them as to get redemption, although I wouldn't blame their fans for wanting it.

Some characters are just misguided and deserve redemption because they've just made honest screwups that they can at least mostly make amends for. Redcloak, as much as I like him, is not one of those. I mean, he IS misguided. But he's too aware that his mistakes ARE mistakes, and he KEEPS making them with his eyes open. He's dug himself in a hole and his solution is to keep digging because he reasons he's gone too far already.

But on the other hand, I think redemption ultimately isn't about "buying back" your transgressions. You can't ever totally undo your mistakes. The best you can do is beg forgiveness and try to make things better in the future. I think he can do that -- I think that was exactly the point of his line in 451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html):

I may not be able to change the fact that I ordered them to their deaths, but I can damn well make certain they weren't in vain.

So yes I do think there's hope for him. I'd even rather he DIDN'T die in a blaze of glory while killing Xykon and thus being sort of forgiven after his death now that nobody has to look at him and remember everything that happened while he was around -- and what happened before that. It's not just that it's been done a million times and it'd be cool to see it subverted. It's too goddamn easy. The rest of us have to stay and work at redemption, but we're all going to die in the end already too, I think that's a lot harder than dying heroically to get your slate wiped clean.

[Conuly]

Well, the crucial part there is "if he's looking for a good time to kill Xykon". He isn't. He needs a high level arcane caster to finish the Plan, and after all Redcloak has done in the name of that, he isn't going to get rid of the only high level caster who believes in it as much as he does. (Albeit he lied about it to Xykon in the first place, but that was when Xykon was human and thus down a few points on Int and Wis compared to how he is now).

That's about the only way he could gain redemption - if he smartens up and realizes that what he's doing now? It's not, in fact, actually good for the goblins, and that being committed to a course doesn't mean you can't change.

I mean, his plan is crazy. It's *been* crazy from the beginning - even the "blackmail" version of it compared to the "destroy everything and start anew" version. I can think of dozens of ways it could fail miserably, and every one of them seems more likely than how it could succeed. (And even if it did succeed, so what? He'd just be selling out a new (or existing old) species for his own. Sooner or later that'd be sure to come back at him and his own in a BIG way. You don't fix problems by shoving them onto others, that just makes things worse.)

But if he could just realize this and give up already and come up with a new plan that's at least marginally within the realm of sanity... that's good enough for me.


So yes I do think there's hope for him. I'd even rather he DIDN'T die in a blaze of glory while killing Xykon and thus being sort of forgiven after his death now that nobody has to look at him and remember everything that happened while he was around -- and what happened before that. It's not just that it's been done a million times and it'd be cool to see it subverted. It's too goddamn easy. The rest of us have to stay and work at redemption, but we're all going to die in the end already too, I think that's a lot harder than dying heroically to get your slate wiped clean.

It's a lot harder to live for a cause than to die for one. If he had spent any of the time he's spent on, as it's been said, petty revenge building and rebuilding villages, taking care of the orphaned and widowed and old, training his own to defend one small bit of land - how much better off would the goblins be today? If he had to sit and spend his life paying back others (or even just his own people) for the stupid stuff he's caused, that'd be a good start.

[B. Dandelion]

It's a lot harder to live for a cause than to die for one. If he had spent any of the time he's spent on, as it's been said, petty revenge building and rebuilding villages, taking care of the orphaned and widowed and old, training his own to defend one small bit of land - how much better off would the goblins be today? If he had to sit and spend his life paying back others (or even just his own people) for the stupid stuff he's caused, that'd be a good start.

Exactly, thank you! That's the lesson Right-Eye was there to show us, and that's more of a happy ending in his style.

[King of Nowhere]

I think he can make it. I can't even really think of someone who is willing to being killed - to being UNMADE - for selfless reasons as evil, despite Redcloak is.
It is easy to act so high and mighty and judge him, and forget how crappy is the situation of the goblin people.
Redcloak killed his brother, and if he hadn't his brother would be dead anyway, and with him every single goblin that were wuth Xykon at the time.
Redcloak DECIDED to give up the plan, but Xykon forced him to come back to it.
And if Redcloak has tryed to build the goblin people from the rubbish it was at the time, as he had decided to do before Xykon appeared and forced him to do otherwise, I still don't think it would work. Even assuming some random band of adventurers didn't show up and kill the goblins on sight, at the first bad winter some goblins would have come to the human lands to steal some food, and would have got caught, and repercussion would follow.
I can excuse Redcloak because each and every action he took WAS reasonable at the time, seemed the best course of events at the time, and I'm not sure it wasn't the best course of the events given the alternatives.
The worst part is that while everyone points out at the evil redcloak and how is so wicked and it's hard or impossible for him to redeem, and can't be forgiven and must be undone by the snarl, very little people talk ill of the paladins killing goblin children, many even justify them.
And even fewer blaim the gods, who made sentient creatures to be killed for training. They are the ones deserving the snarl, not Redcloak.

Not that I'm completely assolving Redcloak. He's still got his faults.

[Katana_Geldar]

I've always seen Redcloak as the tragic hero of OOTS, rather in the same way Darth Vader is of the Star Wars Saga. Redcloak teamed up with Xykon with the best of intentions, planning to betray him as soon as it was convenient, yet realised after Xykon became a Lich that it was not going to work that way. The deal could not be backed out of now, Xykon was too dangerous.

Redcloak killing his brother was not just his proving Xykon's loyalty to him, Redcloak knew that he was in it deep and there could be no going back without giving up on his quest for his people, and if he was not going to work with Xykon then he was going to work against him.

It is, rather too late, for him to be redeemed. And redemption also requires him thinking that he might have been wrong, at least according to Soon. Redcloak might think some of his actions are wrong, but his goal is rather noble, or so he thinks, and he cannot be swayed from it.

[Turkish Delight]

He could only possibly be redeemed if another way were found to get fair treatment for the goblins of the world, outside of the Gate blackmail plan. I suspect such an alternate and more benevolent plan will open up during the course of the story, at which point Redcloak will do his level best to reject it, ignore it, bury it, etc., up until the absolute last moment, at which time he may or may not finally redeem himself...naturally dying in the process, of course, either way.

He seems to be a big fan of the Sunk Cost fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_ fallacy) and will do whatever he can to avoid having to admit that everything he's done has been needless. If he is ever 'redeemed', it will almost certainly only be at the very, very end and be at the expense of his continued breathing.

[Killer Angel]

But... he has been redeemed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)!
Now he know his true mission, now he's no more blinded by inter-goblin hate.
He's a true villain with a sympathetic position, ala mother black dragon.


Oh.. do you mean becoming good? :smallcool:

[xocist]

The possibility of redemption implies he's done something to NEED redemption. Are you talking about turning from Evil to Good? That's more of an alignment change than anything. Most people are pointing out the usual: hatred of humans, the Plan, teaming up with Xykon... oh, and the whole killing his brother thing.
Well, the hatred of humans isn't exactly completely random, is it? And speciesism is in no way just linked to him. The sapphire guard seem to be speciesist against goblins, at least it's heavily implied from what we hear a couple of them say. As for the Plan, so what? He's not planning to take over the world, or even destroy it. In SoD he clearly states that he just wants a level playing field for his people. Just because he's going to extremes to get it, doesn't mean he's a bad person. The sapphire guard went to some great extremes to keep the Gates a secret... Even if it did involve the slaughter of defenceless children (on a quasi-related note, i doubt they'd have done that to human children).
Teaming up with Xykon. A big mistake, but not exactly his idea. His mistake, one that you could have a go at him for, is for sticking with Xykon. However, he seems to be working to undermine the lich, so he's not exactly going along with it fully, is he? A betrayal seems inevitable. Also, as some have pointed out he DID try to leave the lich, to quit the Plan, and that lasted for all of five seconds before Xykon showed up again. Then there was the whole ordeal with his brother. Redcloak isn't a monster. He didn't do it out of hatred, or malice. He panicked and in that moment, he took his brother's life. Tragic more than anything Additionaly, there's the whole issue of him not knowing when to quit, when to cut his losses, but that's more a case of stupidity on his part.
Point is, he's not evil, not properly anyway. Yes he's done a lot of wrong. Ok, a LOT of wrong. But he's not Xykon, he's not Belkar, he's not Nale, he's not evil in the conventional sense. Everything he does is for the greater good (with a little bit of vengeance, i guess). I just... I just think redemption isn't something he needs. Maybe the sense to cut his losses before it kills him, but not redemption.

[Ancalagon]

!SPOILERALERT!


I've just read Start of Darkness, and I've been wondering something. Could Redcloak ever seek Redemption? I hope so, at least, if only to see Xykon get what he deserves for the end of SoD. But, personally, I don't know. I have a feeling that Redcloak may be destined to be a tragic character, and won't survive the comic. What do you guys think?

Redemption? In whose eyes?

His god? His brother? All the people who died for nothing?

His god is tricky, as we do not know the real Dark One or how he sees Redcloak's plan and how many goblins died needlessly in it (check Right-Eyes last speech on that).

In his brother's eyes? Tricky. Have you noticed that Redcloak says "Goodbye, brother" and his brother answers with "Goodbye, Redcloak" (not saying "brother", he does not even use "Redcloaks" real name).
I guess he won't find redemption there, even if he should betray Xykon in the end. After Redcloak became Left-Eye, I bet that Right-Eye is going to play SOME role until the end (as metaphor or person).

All the goblins and people who needlessly (due to the siding with Xykon) died? Unlikely, if they knew what was happening.

Redcloak is the same angry kid that put on that cloak years ago, I think he'll see that his brother was right all those years (as he already once saw!) but it's too late for redemption.

[whitelaughter]

But... he has been redeemed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)!

Back to his true alignment: LAWFUL Evil. Redcloak is quite happy to point out when other people are being evil; his eyes are quite open to what he is doing. It was when he realised that he wasn't being Lawful that he changed; he was failing in his duty to Goblinkind. He's never hesitated to be casually evil, and is smart enough to know exactly what he's doing.

I can't see Redcloak ceasing to be Lawful, and while he could turn on Xkyon, I can't see him betraying the Dark One or what he percieves as the needs of Goblinkind (which is not necessarily what goblins need, as One-eye understood).
The only thing I can see really throwing him for a loop is a Reincarnate spell. The conflicting loyalties to his new and old species might shake him up enough to allow some change. Of course, Reincarnate requires the target to be willing, so Redcloak might refuse expressly to prevent such a clash of loyalties (or out of hatred of demi-humans).

[Optimystik]

While I can't see any thread on Redcloak not involving SoD in some way, I think it would still be courteous to put a spoiler warning in the thread title.



The only thing I can see really throwing him for a loop is a Reincarnate spell. The conflicting loyalties to his new and old species might shake him up enough to allow some change. Of course, Reincarnate requires the target to be willing, so Redcloak might refuse expressly to prevent such a clash of loyalties (or out of hatred of demi-humans).

If you want to really throw him for a loop, such a contrivance is unnecessary. Instead, simply have the goblins themselves rebel against him and ask him to stop making their lives worse. Right-Eye alone stopped him in his tracks for awhile, having the entire goblin people side with him (or at least, with Right-Eye's point of view) would surely cause a BSOD.

[Dark Faun]

I always wondered if Soon's "redemption is not for everyone" was foreshadowing for Redcloak's own end or if Redcloak was going to contrast Miko...

[Big Hungry Joe]

There is nothing Redcloak needs redemption for. He has faithfully served the Dark One, and not merely as an expendable servant -- he has been the Dark One's right hand on earth. I never ran the numbers, but my impression from SOD onwards is that Redcloak has also vastly surpassed in both accomplishments and lifespan even the other high priests that came before him. As I understand it, he's worn the red cloak for decades when prior owners dropped like flies, and he's also managed to crush the historical oppressors of Azure City with a giant goblinoid army -- something reminiscent of the Dark One's own mortal accomplishments. (Indeed, although Xykon brought much of the firepower, it was obviously Redcloak's strategies that ultimately carried the day). Not only is there nothing needing redemption, in fact it's hard to think of any place Redcloak has dropped the ball for his deity. Presumably the Dark One could withhold his powers/magic from Redcloak if he were displeased with Redcloak's activities, including pairing up with Xykon. My opinion is that upon his eventual demise Redcloak is deserving of a place of honor in the Dark One's afterlife for what he has already accomplished, let alone anything else he may pull off in the mean time. He may be evil, but he has been extremely good at it.

[BillyJimBoBob]

[snippage]Betrayal? Yes he could betray Xykon (betraying Xykon at the end as always been part of the Plan after all) [more snippage]
And by the way, if he betray Xykon, he will fail. Xykon is a lot more dangerous then Redcloak could ever hope to be and, unlike what some think, Xykon as proved lots of time that its actually really hard to outsmart him. Dont confuse not knowing with not caring.
Agreed. No matter how much it may be a part of the Plan, Xykon is an epic level caster, and Redcloak isn't. Xykon should know every dirty little secret of Redcloak's by now, unless he is a complete imbecile. And while he may be shown as disliking the tedious details of campaign planning, he hasn't been shown to be an overly trusting fool who would be unaware of a carefully planned treachery on the part of one of his lieutenants.

[whitelaughter]

While I can't see any thread on Redcloak not involving SoD in some way, I think it would still be courteous to put a spoiler warning in the thread title.
Good point.



If you want to really throw him for a loop, such a contrivance is unnecessary. Instead, simply have the goblins themselves rebel against him and ask him to stop making their lives worse. Right-Eye alone stopped him in his tracks for awhile, having the entire goblin people side with him (or at least, with Right-Eye's point of view) would surely cause a BSOD.
Ummm...Right-Eye is the one who got stopped in his tracks....permanently.

And when Redcloak considers the Snarl obliterating reality a win, since the Dark One will be involved in creating the new universe? That he is prepared to commit genocide on his own race in the name of their welfare, indicates just how uninterested he is in his people as people, rather than as a concept.

I think Redcloak would be happy to quote Linus Van pelt: "I love humanity, it's people I can't stand!" (Replacing 'humanity' with 'goblinkind' of course).

[Turkish Delight]

There is nothing Redcloak needs redemption for. He has faithfully served the Dark One, and not merely as an expendable servant -- he has been the Dark One's right hand on earth. I never ran the numbers, but my impression from SOD onwards is that Redcloak has also vastly surpassed in both accomplishments and lifespan even the other high priests that came before him. As I understand it, he's worn the red cloak for decades when prior owners dropped like flies, and he's also managed to crush the historical oppressors of Azure City with a giant goblinoid army -- something reminiscent of the Dark One's own mortal accomplishments. (Indeed, although Xykon brought much of the firepower, it was obviously Redcloak's strategies that ultimately carried the day). Not only is there nothing needing redemption, in fact it's hard to think of any place Redcloak has dropped the ball for his deity. Presumably the Dark One could withhold his powers/magic from Redcloak if he were displeased with Redcloak's activities, including pairing up with Xykon. My opinion is that upon his eventual demise Redcloak is deserving of a place of honor in the Dark One's afterlife for what he has already accomplished, let alone anything else he may pull off in the mean time. He may be evil, but he has been extremely good at it.

You're reading redemption as 'redeemed in the eyes of the Dark one' rather than 'redeemed for undertaking a scheme that could very well end in the annihilation of everything in existence or the world being ruled by a vicious, tyrannical, terminally bored Chaotic Evil Lich Sorcerer.' I'm thinking the thread starter and most others are reading 'redemption' in terms of the latter; I mean, going by the standards you're using, we could say a priest who eats babies is in no need or redemption if he worships the God of Baby Eating.

[Turkish Delight]

Point is, he's not evil, not properly anyway. Yes he's done a lot of wrong. Ok, a LOT of wrong. But he's not Xykon, he's not Belkar, he's not Nale, he's not evil in the conventional sense. Everything he does is for the greater good (with a little bit of vengeance, i guess). I just... I just think redemption isn't something he needs. Maybe the sense to cut his losses before it kills him, but not redemption.

It doesn't work like that. Threatening the entire world and every living thing in it with utter annihilation (yes, that includes everyone in his own species) with a plan that could go horrible wrong in any number of ways is not justified behavior, no matter how theoretically noble your cause. It is evil, plan and simple.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No matter how fine your goals, if your actions are evil, you are evil. So yes, despite the fact that the aim he's striving for makes him more sympathetic than a Belkar or a Xykon, he is in need of redemption, no question.

[hamishspence]

Pretty much, yes.

It can apply to other Stick characters though.

Every time I've said "no, a desire to protect others does not justify the murder of small children," I've gotten replies of:

"it does if they are goblins".

[Larkspur]

Several points:

1. The Plan, rather like democracy or airplanes, is only a crazy ridiculous idea if it doesn't work. Since Redcloak's definition of "working" encompasses the annihilation of the planet, there's actually a wide range of ways in which he could "win." And so far Team Evil has been fairly successful.

Plus, he just took out the Sapphire Guard. That's more than anyone else managed to do, and half his battle was won right there.

2. Ultimate victory may not matter to him much anyway, because Redcloak appears to be more emotionally invested in being a revolutionary than in the actual success of the revolution.

SoDDid anyone notice how odd his reaction was after the destruction of Lirian's Gate? It took him panels and panels to reach the correct emotional state of "Holy crap! I've just (as far as I know) permanently destroyed my species' hopes for equality!" His first impulse is to try to duck the blame for setting the gate on fire. It's his role in the execution of the Plan that he's most concerned with, not the success of the Plan itself.

He doesn't flip out over the destruction of Dorukan's Gate, even though Xykon just squandered a captured gate and months of their work through sheer laziness and self-indulgence. In Azure City Xykon is more upset about the destruction of the gate than he is. Yet let Redcloak realize he's sent some hobgoblins needlessly to their deaths and he flips out. His concern is always for how well he's doing his job, not whether the job gets done.

3. For whatever reason, Redcloak really doesn't seem to hold grudges against Xykon. He gets irritated with him, but it's nowhere near the level of vengeful hatred you'd expect given the crap Xykon pulls on him. We'll see how he reacts to the regeneration moratorium, but I'm predicting much less resentment than most people seem to be anticipating. I think the chances of him betraying Xykon to get revenge (rather than out of pragmatism, because if he gets a better offer he'll be out of there like a rocket) are extremely remote.

SoD
My pet theory is that Redcloak figured out exactly what Xykon when he was zapping the lizard folk along with the Sapphire Guard, and accepted a certain degree of sociopathy related collateral damage as an inevitable cost to working with him. He doesn't expect decency from Xykon and so he never feels betrayed by Xykon's crimes, just annoyed. Whereas Right-Eye gets caught by surprise every time, and reacts with corresponding fury.

Added all together, these three things mean that from Redcloak's perspective he has nothing to repent for- not the Plan itself, because it might just work and anyway his god told him to do it, and if it does work any collateral damage is acceptable, not any defeat that doesn't arise through his own fault, because he's more invested in knowing that he tried than in actually succeeding, and not Xykon's depredations, because he accepted that cost the day they teamed up.

Unless the Dark One utterly betrays the goblinoid races at the last minute, I see no reason for Redcloak to switch sides. (Xykon might try to replace him with Tsukiko and prompt a duel, but that would be Xykon switching sides, not him.)

[King of Nowhere]

I suppose Redcloak shows less emotive response to the destruction of the gate because he's a less emotive guy than Xykon.
I also think he doesn't show much hatred towards Xykon becuase, really, what would be the point? He'd only risk getting things worse.
I've read a saying that can be translated like "if you're taking it in the ass, stand still. If you don't, the other guy enjoys more". If Redcloak showed more anger at Xykon, it would either a) amuse Xykon, and do no good to Redcloak, or b) Xykon decides he can't trusts Redcloak and kills him.
It's a loss-loss situation.

[BillyJimBoBob]

So yes I do think there's hope for him. I'd even rather he DIDN'T die in a blaze of glory while killing Xykon and thus being sort of forgiven after his death now that nobody has to look at him and remember everything that happened while he was around -- and what happened before that. It's not just that it's been done a million times and it'd be cool to see it subverted. It's too goddamn easy. The rest of us have to stay and work at redemption, but we're all going to die in the end already too, I think that's a lot harder than dying heroically to get your slate wiped clean.I agree with this 100%. IF Redcloak is to be redeemed, and I don't think that it is likely or even necessarily a good thing story wise, but if it is done then he should live, be left with the consequences of his acts, and have to continue to work to make amends. Nothing like picking up the Emperor Xykon and throwing him into the Death Star reactor a Gate and suddenly being welcome into the Light Side of the Force Celestia. That would be lame. And besides, Roy already tried the Gate thing and it didn't stick.

[CrazySopher]

So... a few things I'd like to say to Larkspur's stuff.


Several points:

1. The Plan, rather like democracy or airplanes, is only a crazy ridiculous idea if it doesn't work. Since Redcloak's definition of "working" encompasses the annihilation of the planet, there's actually a wide range of ways in which he could "win." And so far Team Evil has been fairly successful.

Plus, he just took out the Sapphire Guard. That's more than anyone else managed to do, and half his battle was won right there.
Well, Larkspur, it appears that we are disagreeing to a point as to what our "Plan" is. As far as I can remember, Redcloak wants to betray Xykon or skip out before the whole "destroying the planet" part comes to fruition. He wants the Goblinoids to "win", when it comes down to it, perhaps for them to gain the same sort of control and ownership of the land that Humans and their allies have. This is a little bit difficult to pull off when the planet explodes.

Attaching his goals to Xykon's is a mistake then. And if that is true, then ultimately enough, calling him a part of "Team Evil" is just as big a mistake. Xykon is not his friend or ideological equal. Means to an end? Maybe even a bargain he can't get out of? Yeah, quite. But not his friend, and we're going to see a betrayal or attempt thereof before the end.


2. Ultimate victory may not matter to him much anyway, because Redcloak appears to be more emotionally invested in being a revolutionary than in the actual success of the revolution.

SoDDid anyone notice how odd his reaction was after the destruction of Lirian's Gate? It took him panels and panels to reach the correct emotional state of "Holy crap! I've just (as far as I know) permanently destroyed my species' hopes for equality!" His first impulse is to try to duck the blame for setting the gate on fire. It's his role in the execution of the Plan that he's most concerned with, not the success of the Plan itself.

He doesn't flip out over the destruction of Dorukan's Gate, even though Xykon just squandered a captured gate and months of their work through sheer laziness and self-indulgence. In Azure City Xykon is more upset about the destruction of the gate than he is. Yet let Redcloak realize he's sent some hobgoblins needlessly to their deaths and he flips out. His concern is always for how well he's doing his job, not whether the job gets done.
What you said up there about Redcloak and the idea of the "revolutionary" is sort of correct, but not without context. As said before, Redcloak's and Xykon's goals are not alike, and this started out as an alliance of nothing more than convenience, and the real reason Redcloak is hanging around is similarly linked. This also feeds into his concern for what you call "how well he's doing his job". His goal is the freedom and success of the Goblinoid races. Look at this from his perspective, especially if you've read the Paladin Blues. He sees the core race humanoids as evil! Redcloak's "job" isn't to follow Xykon (or at least he doesn't see it that way. That's room for another thread.). It's to accomplish the overthrow of the "evil" human empires and bring about the rise of his people, who have been raided and abused by these "evil" empires for centuries, and he's willing to sacrifice everything for this.

The hobgoblin sacrifice thing is actually far more important than his realization of "I havn't been doing my job very well", though that's a big part of it if we assume his "job" is what I said up there. The big thing he said that clues everything in is when he said "Oh my god, I've been turning into Xykon!" But that comes up later.


3.For whatever reason, Redcloak really doesn't seem to hold grudges against Xykon. He gets irritated with him, but it's nowhere near the level of vengeful hatred you'd expect given the crap Xykon pulls on him. We'll see how he reacts to the regeneration moratorium, but I'm predicting much less resentment than most people seem to be anticipating. I think the chances of him betraying Xykon to get revenge (rather than out of pragmatism, because if he gets a better offer he'll be out of there like a rocket) are extremely remote.

SoD
My pet theory is that Redcloak figured out exactly what Xykon when he was zapping the lizard folk along with the Sapphire Guard, and accepted a certain degree of sociopathy related collateral damage as an inevitable cost to working with him. He doesn't expect decency from Xykon and so he never feels betrayed by Xykon's crimes, just annoyed. Whereas Right-Eye gets caught by surprise every time, and reacts with corresponding fury.

Added all together, these three things mean that from Redcloak's perspective he has nothing to repent for- not the Plan itself, because it might just work and anyway his god told him to do it, and if it does work any collateral damage is acceptable, not any defeat that doesn't arise through his own fault, because he's more invested in knowing that he tried than in actually succeeding, and not Xykon's depredations, because he accepted that cost the day they teamed up.

Unless the Dark One utterly betrays the goblinoid races at the last minute, I see no reason for Redcloak to switch sides. (Xykon might try to replace him with Tsukiko and prompt a duel, but that would be Xykon switching sides, not him.)

Now here is where we start to agree. I not only agree with what you said in the spoiler, but I think you said it better than I could have. I think Redcloak admits that a level of sociopathy has to happen if his goals are going to get completed. Hell, I think some of it rubbed off on him; look at the episode when he got Xykon to talk about tactics by saying "I've got two Hobgoblins here with poisonous swarm-filled pies. They will pie eachother if you listen." And up to that very point, we can definitely see his slow change from "It's all for the plan, it's all for the plan" to a more sadistic Redcloak, whether or not he himself realizes it.

The issue here, and also what may be the biggest point of contention, is that he does.

Let's quickly revisit Redcloak's scene of realization, when he comes to the conclusion that "Oh god, I've been sending these things to their death" in relation to the Hobgoblins. His huge realization isn't quite "I haven't been doing my job", as important as that may be, nor is it exactly "I've been squandering all these lives!" Both of these ARE things he realizes, but these are important because they culminate in his realization that "Oh my god, I've been turning into Xykon." As soon as he realizes this, he charges! He very quickly turns into an action-oriented, dynamic, "I HAVE to solve this!" character instead of a waiter, denier. He actually accepts responsibility for his actions and realizes the horror of what he's done. This is extremely important, because Redcloak's habits up to this point have been to deny, to excuse himself. "It's Xykon's fault. It's all for the plan. I can't do anything else," and as a result, he's been the passive lackey who steps to the side up to this very point.

Will he ultimately come around and realize how much responsibility he has for the events that have thusly occurred? I don't know. He's never going to share intense feelings of kinship and affection with core humanoid races. But we've seen that he can, and we've seen a major self-image shift towards something much more mature and accountable. I think we can say he's got himself a damn good fighting shot.

EDIT: Killer Angel posted the comic in question at the bottom of page 1 of this thread. Props to him for that!

[Larkspur]

If Redcloak showed more anger at Xykon, it would either a) amuse Xykon, and do no good to Redcloak, or b) Xykon decides he can't trusts Redcloak and kills him.
It's a loss-loss situation.

Oh definitely- Redcloak isn't stupid enough to openly defy him. But he's had a lot of good opportunities to seethe in private, especially in SoD, and he never takes them. He just kind of rolls his eyes and moves on. I don't think his self control is good enough to conceal his hatred in private; he's not just not feeling it.

SoDHe also doesn't seem to resent Right-Eye for walking out on him, either when it happens or in the future. I get the impression he used up all his hatred on the Sapphire Guard and doesn't have much left over for anyone else

Sopher- you strike me as someone who hasn't read SoD. If so, this rebuttal is not going to make much sense, but here it is for the record.


As far as I can remember, Redcloak wants to betray Xykon or skip out before the whole "destroying the planet" part comes to fruition. He wants the Goblinoids to "win", when it comes down to it, perhaps for them to gain the same sort of control and ownership of the land that Humans and their allies have. This is a little bit difficult to pull off when the planet explodes.

SoDPlan A is for the Goblinoids to win- ie. for the gods to stop considering them undermenschen and give them some deceny territory.

Destroying the planet is Plan B, if the ritual misfires and they release the Snarl. Redcloak clearly views it as a positive outcome, just not the optimal one. Of course, the whole Plan is a betrayal of Xykon, because capturing a gate won't achieve what Xykon thinks it will (or in fact help him at all). Redcloak doesn't have to do anything specific to betray Xykon, he just has to complete the ritual. Both Plan A and Plan B screw Xykon.


Attaching his goals to Xykon's is a mistake then.

Only on Xykon's part. Redcloak is getting exactly what he needs from the partnership; an arcane caster and a powerhouse. He just has to put up with a lot of crap.

They're still a team, though. Belkar's long-term goals may not be consonant with Roy's, but that doesn't mean he isn't in the party.

From the absorption/rejection of Xykon's sociopathy standpoint, I think we can consider that he has already redeemed himself- that unnecessary duel with the Azurite cleric, where he senselessly risked his own life to spare the mooks, was the turning point.

And perhaps that marked his realization that the Plan is not the be and end all of goblinoid liberation- but this is Redcloak, so I doubt it. I think he was just too overwrought to make sound tactical decisions at that point, and also he's never really valued his own life as much as he ought to; I don't think he properly understands what an exceptional strategist he is.

So yes, in the future he may push back harder against Xykon in terms of the collateral damage stuff (although I do think there's a big difference between committing murder himself without noticing and Xykon murdering allies- I'm not sure the latter would much faze him even now), but that's hardly a repudiation of the Plan, which is what most people on the thread seem to consider a baseline for redemption.

(It's also worth pointing out that Redcloak has always bitched Xykon out for collateral damage even when he was in his meekest post-SoD "your evilness" mode. The sending hobgoblins to their deaths thing was an aberration which he recovered from, not a habit he changed for the better.)

[Optimystik]

Ummm...Right-Eye is the one who got stopped in his tracks....permanently.

And when Redcloak considers the Snarl obliterating reality a win, since the Dark One will be involved in creating the new universe? That he is prepared to commit genocide on his own race in the name of their welfare, indicates just how uninterested he is in his people as people, rather than as a concept.

I think Redcloak would be happy to quote Linus Van pelt: "I love humanity, it's people I can't stand!" (Replacing 'humanity' with 'goblinkind' of course).

He is willing to take such measures because he really believes his people would be better off as a result. So far, the ONLY goblin to try and stand up to him on that point was Right-Eye. Being his brother, RE was fighting an uphill battle in that regard; every argument he made was responded to with ad hominems by Redcloak. "You, admitting error?" "You're always getting impatient, always running away." "Lets talk this out before you do something hasty, as usual." Redcloak, in his own mind, had valid reasons not to listen to his brother's advice; he had a preconceived perception of his brother as having poor judgment and hasty decision-making.

What Redcloak didn't take into account was the fact that his brother matured far more than he himself had in the same period of time. Throughout SoD, Redcloak never raised a family, never lived in or led a peaceful community of goblins, and above all never even tried to coexist with humans. Ever. Whatever reasons he had for not wanting to try, they don't make his summary dismissal of his brother's POV valid.

[CrazySopher]

Hmm... lots of things to consider here.

Firstly, though, before I continue, I did a little research (as much as one can do on the plot of a copyrighted, sellable work) as a refresher soon as I read your post, Larkspur, and you're absolutely correct about a few things I've said in relation to stuff that SoD, and I'm terribly sorry about all that. Anything in previous posts about this are right out, and I've been forced to re-look at my old ideas on all this jazz. Thanks for actually bringing that to my attention, or else I would have looked like a complete ass further than I already have. >_>

It does look a lot darker for Redcloak now that I've been corrected. But I still think that he has a fighting shot, as infintesimal as it may be. As he matures through the series, though, he becomes more open minded, and with each change becomes less passive and more responsible for his actions. The race, then, is whether or not Redcloak and Xykon will complete what they need to before he fully matures and overcomes his strict species radicalism.

Given his nature, the problem is that this would leave him empty. It's been his purpose, his thing. He'd need to be able to find something else to hold on to, or at least a different way of accomplishing his goals, but his recent and total victory over the Azurite empire could very well push him in that direction, if vaguely. Something will need to make him realize this, of course, because if Redcloak remains the way he is for now, then there won't be any sort of shift. However, there is so much room between now and the Last Gate that something is bound to happen. I doubt his maturation will randomly halt before then, and an evolving viewpoint will bring him different perspectives that he might analyze differently... or actually analyze at all. If his continuing maturity actually leads him to seriously re-examine his means and ends before he completes his objective, then he may very well come to a different conclusion.

Along with Redcloak's growth in maturity is his growth in confidence. Larkspur is very correct when he says that Redcloak underestimates himself, and that he's incredibly talented, if not brilliant, and a powerful leader. As Redcloak comes to a greater realization of his potential and begins to fill it, it's more than possible that he could realize how less risky it would be to simply marshal his armies and conquer. The issue, then, are his ties to Xykon, who could very easily one-shot Redcloak if an attempt at betrayal occurs (because it would of course need to happen, in order to pull off any scheme other than the Gates). It's unlikely given what we've seen so far, and we have to imagine a much more mature, independent Redcloak than the one we've got now, so it's difficult to determine... and if his lack of independence continues, even as other parts of him grow, he'll still follow Xykon if only because he doesn't think he could make it on his own.

Of course, it could easily swing in the other direction if he marshals enough independence, giving him a greater determination to pull off The Plan as is, or at least give him a much greater chance of threatening the Gods with the Snarl instead of simply losing control over it. It's certainly more plausible with things as they are at the moment. But even then, challenging the Gods by controlling the Snarl... it seems like a rather immature idea, like rebelling against a grand childhood bully. It's the dream that every skinny little kid who grew up angry at the world has, but he's maturing rather quickly. I mean hell, the fact that Xykon cut out his right eye is strong evidence as far as I can tell that he'd definitely wrestle with the Plan, if not grow out of it, due to the huge risk factor involved.

He... might. Might pull it off. But he'll need more pushing, and he'll need to grow rather quickly, even given the time afforded him. It's within the realm of possibility for sure, but I'm nowhere near comfortable enough to bet on his success unless he survives through the Gate incident.

[Water-Smurf]

There's something that we should keep in mind here: Redcloak is a kid. He's nineteen years old, his mind and body frozen in that age by the Crimson Mantle. I don't care what anyone says to me about how 'goblin age is different from human age'--he's still only had nineteen years to mature and grow before he was given the Mantle. As far as I'm concerned, he barely even constitutes an adult, biologically. Mentally is far more subjective.

Redemption is a hard word to define. Who grants him this redemption? The Gods? The Dark One? The Giant? Well, the Gods are part of the reason he is so bitter. They abandoned the goblins to their lot in life and hold just as much prejudice as he does. The Dark One, I think, would be very sympathetic towards Redcloak and the mere fact that he's slowly starting to realize the magnitude of his mistakes would probably redeem any wrongdoing in the Dark One's eyes. As for Rich, I don't pretend to speak for him.

He killed his little brother. That is something that he'll always remember and always carry with him. We'd be fools to think that he didn't regret it. He was still a kid who was angry with the world for everything he and his species had to suffer simply because they were goblins and therefore labeled 'evil' arbitrarily. Right-Eye grew up unhampered by the Mantle. He had a family and had a town. Redcloak didn't understand that his little brother changed while he did not, so he never really took Right-Eye's opinions into account. And that ended in Right-Eye's death.

He's a bitter kid blinded by his own anger with way too much power and smarts for his own good. He's an intellectual. He knows how to do things. He's a kid. He doesn't know the implications of the things he does. He has to think that what he's doing is for the best for his species He has to. Otherwise, all would have been for naught. He would have caused the death of thousands of goblinoids for no reason. He would have sent all of reality on the path of destruction for no reason. He would have killed his baby brother for no reason. That's a possibility that Redcloak can't face, so he continues making the same mistakes.

We would condemn a man for doing it. Adults should know better. And since Redcloak acts like an adult, we think of him as one. But he's not. Not by a long shot. He's an intelligent teenager, mature for his age, who was thrown responsibility over his whole species and his species' cousins way before he was ready for it and tried to do the best he could to uphold it and, misguided by anger, he resorts to dangerous means to do his best.

He's a tragic character. He has no family save for one niece who he hasn't seen for years and who may be dead. His only 'friends' are one childlike monster and one complete sociopath. No one outside of goblins will try to understand his cause after all the destruction he made. His own brother condemned him very specifically right before he died, something that, though I completely understand why he did it, I don't think Right-Eye should have done. Most of all, Redcloak bears the responsibility of his brother's death, his niece's father, his parents' child, the only person who he should have unequivocally protected, on his shoulders. And he has to deal with all of this alone. So, as any other teenager, he deals with it through denial and throwing himself in the self-destructive path he has sent his entire species on.

I should probably cut my rambling off.

I think that a character is beyond redemption only when they prove incapable of guilt, even in the face of their own true evil, or they are sadistic beyond the bounds of those of us who call ourselves decent (the doctor who forced Sophie to make the titular choice in Sophie's Choice comes to mind *desperately tries to resist urge to flip off mental image of said doctor*). Redcloak really is neither. That is not to say that he carries no sins--he does--but he does it because he is misguided and convinced that he couldn't possibly be fooling himself with his own anger and grief. After all, he was chosen by the Dark One himself! He has to be old enough to handle everything that's been thrown at him!

[Larkspur]

@Op:

"You have no sense of perspective because your mental development is suspended by your clothing and you never raised a family" is an equally ad hominem attack. It may be true, but it has no bearing on the discussion. Right-Eye never presented a coherent argument against the Plan beyond "It's too risky and unpleasant," "Xykon is a bastard" and "I don't think you can pull it off." Since Redcloak is willing to put up with not having a life and with Xykon, and the Plan is actually going pretty well, none of those arguments have much weight.

Also, he was coexisting fine with the humans until some of them murdered his entire village. No one is obligated to try to make nice to people who murdered their mother. He's wrong to see the humans as some monolithic group that all deserve to be hated over the actions of a small paramilitary organization, but going and killing the crap out of the Sapphire Guard was exactly the appropriate response to their actions.


I'm terribly sorry about all that. Anything in previous posts about this are right out, and I've been forced to re-look at my old ideas on all this jazz.

Dude, you don't have to apologize. The level of scholarship on this forum is astoundingly high, but we're talking about a frickin' webcomic. You're not obligated to remember it perfectly.


The issue, then, are his ties to Xykon, who could very easily one-shot Redcloak if an attempt at betrayal occurs (because it would of course need to happen, in order to pull off any scheme other than the Gates)

Xykon won't know until it's too late, though; that's the brilliant part of Redcloak's recruitment strategy.

Unless of course he can extrapolate the inevitable betrayal from the fact that Redcloak is willing to follow him now. Given his general insight about people it seems like he ought to be able to do this, but it also seems like he hasn't, because his Hannibal lecture from the end of SoD makes no sense if he understands Redcloak's real strategy. So I'm not really sure how much Xykon knows. We'll see if they ever get to perform the ritual, I guess.


he'll still follow Xykon if only because he doesn't think he could make it on his own.

He can't. They were nowhere before Xykon joined them, and he needs an arcane caster. Redcloak is awesome, but being awesome isn't enough by itself. Without Xykon the Plan is a non-starter.


The fact that Xykon cut out his right eye is strong evidence as far as I can tell that he'd definitely wrestle with the Plan, if not grow out of it, due to the huge risk factor involved.

Hey, be fair. Xykon didn't cut it out, he just refused to let Redcloak regen it. Which by the terms of their agreement was kind of fair- the rule was no mention of Right-Eye if Redcloak remained loyal, and his loyalty was wavering, so Xykon sort-of-but-not-really reminds him of Right-Eye.

And I really don't think he's going to be all that bothered over the eye. He gave up his name the second he met Xykon, he gave up his brother- what's one eye more or less, at this point?

And the risk doesn't faze him. Whatever his vices, Redcloak is not a physical coward. He thought from the very beginning trying to implement the Plan would get him killed; he just never cared. That's what I meant about him caring more about trying to do the job than anything else- he'd like to win, but he'll happily settle for martyrdom.

But you know, Sopher, I think you convinced me. He's not going to abandon the Plan over the niece; he didn't mind Xykon cracking up over her brothers' deaths and he killed Right-Eye; the fate of some kid he hardly knows won't be an overriding concern to him.

But in a way the hobgoblins are his version of Right-Eye's village. Abandoning the Plan would leave him hollow, but he finally has something in this world that he cares about, something that he might be unwilling to risk on a slim chance of victory. He doesn't value his own life or Right-Eye's enough to forestall the apocalypse, but after all the love and respect they've offered him he might come to value theirs.

It's a slim chance, and he's not there yet, but he might get there someday.

@Water-smurf: where are you getting nineteen? That seems way high to me; Ridi is fourteen when they meet and he says Redcloak looks about the same age- and that's after thirty years. I'd guess he was probably twelve or thirteen when he got the cloak- he was an acolyte; it's like an apprenticeship, not a real job. So yeah. he's still a kid.

That said, he's a pretty freaky kid, and he always has been. I mean, he stops, in the middle of a pogrom, when he's about to take up the most holy relic of his order from the hands of his dead mentor, to fold the cloak he was wearing before putting it on the ground. That is some insane Lawfulness right there.

I think that's actually part of his problem; he's dutiful to the point where saying no to a Plan that he thinks is very likely to kill him doesn't even occur to him as an option. But it does mean he doesn't react like a normal teenager; his emotions are tightly controlled to the point where it can be kind of unnerving. He killed his brother in cold blood, for one thing, with no extenuating motive whatsoever. (Xykon was safe; he could have just healed Right-Eye. Instead he just sat back and let him die.) I don't think I'd try him as a minor for that one.

The Plan is an obscene burden to place on a child, but if ever a child was up to coping with it, he's the one. (And honestly I'm not sure implementing it is wrong, under the circumstances).


*desperately tries to resist urge to flip off mental image of said doctor*).

Why resist? *flips the bastard off*

[Renrik]

I don't see Redcloak ever being redeemed, and here's why:
Although he does exhibit a measure of conscience in regard to sending goblins and hobgoblins to their deaths, he still, absolutely hates humans/elves! Wouldn't a requirement for redemption be "not being... speciesist?

Then almost no elf or human would ever be considered good. They hate goblins.

[the_tick_rules]

maybe he might repent in his last breathes.

[TheBST]

Why would he want to? Redcloak's justified everything he's done as unfortunate but necessary for the greater goal of making his entire species safer from humans and giving them the same opportunities as the player races. He's done some awful things, but as he sees it, in service of a noble goal- and there's some weight to his argument.

Things that would make Redcloak want to repent:

1. Right Eye. See above.

2. He was wrong all along- Goblins have always had the same opportunities
as other races. We should take the Dark One's story with a hefty dose of
salt, but there's nothing to counter the point that Goblins were created to
be cannon fodder, and Goblins attaining Stat levels as high as the Dark
or Redcloaks are extremely rare. The universal order is decidedly against
them.

3. Ultimate failure of his plan. It's more likely, given what he's attempting,
that Redcloak will justify it to himself as 'at least I tried'- this seemed to
be his attitude when, as far as he knew, Soon Kim was about to kebab
him with a katana.

Redcloak's never going to want 'redemption' for most of his actions. Maybe individual ones (such as Right Eye), but not for his overall plan.

[Conuly]

2. He was wrong all along- Goblins have always had the same opportunities
as other races. We should take the Dark One's story with a hefty dose of
salt, but there's nothing to counter the point that Goblins were created to
be cannon fodder, and Goblins attaining Stat levels as high as the Dark
or Redcloaks are extremely rare. The universal order is decidedly against
them.

3. Ultimate failure of his plan. It's more likely, given what he's attempting,
that Redcloak will justify it to himself as 'at least I tried'- this seemed to
be his attitude when, as far as he knew, Soon Kim was about to kebab
him with a katana.

Or, 2.5 (somewhere between your points 2 and 3, naturally) he was wrong all along about the PLAN and ditches it because, finally, he sees a better one, whatever that might be.

I mean, here on earth there've been zillions of oppressed people time and time again, but none of them has plotted to destroy the whole planet to redress their grievances.

[TheBST]

Or, 2.5 (somewhere between your points 2 and 3, naturally) he was wrong all along about the PLAN and ditches it because, finally, he sees a better one, whatever that might be.

I mean, here on earth there've been zillions of oppressed people time and time again, but none of them has plotted to destroy the whole planet to redress their grievances.

No one on earth was put here by God specifically so anyone else could kill them for practice.

But even if he finds a 'better plan', Redcloak will be saddened by what he's done but can justify himself because, in his mind, he still had noble intentions.

[Teddy]

I could see one thing that possibly could make him reevaluate what exactly he's doing for the goblinkind, and that is him losing the crimson mantle. That red tattered piece of cloth is pretty much his identity: his ideals, his authority, his safety, his strongest connection to his god, and even his name. If Xykon would take away the mantle, he would see that he had sacrificed everything to gain nothing, and that everything he's ever done for the goblinkind has been a downer. He would be a Left-Eye, without hope and future, and he would be forced to depend on anyone willing to help him, and there are few people out there who are willing to help an evil goblin cleric of an evil deity. It would be a lot of possible character development, but the story needs someone who belives that every evil action is for the best of his people as a contrast to Xykon's "evil because I'm bored". But if Rich finds someone to fill his position, then it would be a pretty nice turn of events.

[Zevox]

Or, 2.5 (somewhere between your points 2 and 3, naturally) he was wrong all along about the PLAN and ditches it because, finally, he sees a better one, whatever that might be.
This, I think, is the most likely scenario for him to be "redeemed." If, upon the failure of The Plan, he is left alive, but something has caused him to reconsider it and, say, instead pursue peaceful means of attaining Goblin equality with the other Humanoids - perhaps via constructing a city of his own and establishing an alliance with Azure City or something of the sort - he might be considered "redeemed." I could even see an excellent way to symbolize this at the end of the comic - him willingly setting aside the Crimson Mantle itself (and perhaps us learning his real name at the end).


I mean, here on earth there've been zillions of oppressed people time and time again, but none of them has plotted to destroy the whole planet to redress their grievances.
Neither is Redcloak. The destruction of the planet is simply a possible side-effect if he messes up the ritual to gain control of the gate and accidentally releases the Snarl, it is not what he plans to do.

(Besides, in our world, we have no means of destroying the entire planet so easily as releasing the Snarl would destroy the OotS's. Closest we've got is using a whole lot of nukes, and technically that would just destroy most or all life on the planet, not the planet itself.)

Zevox

[Conuly]

No one on earth was put here by God specifically so anyone else could kill them for practice.

Well, that's one man's opinion, anyway :smalltongue:

[Larkspur]

I mean, here on earth there've been zillions of oppressed people time and time again, but none of them has plotted to destroy the whole planet to redress their grievances.

No one's ever had the opportunity. And remember, it's not a plot just to destroy the world; it's a plot to wipe the slate clean and start over properly.

If you could- there's nothing really analogous to Redcloak's situation, but let's say, if you could restart history with universal disease prevalence, so people in the tropics didn't carry the burden of most of the really vile diseases and the Amerindians already had resistance to Eurasian diseases like smallpox, would you do it? I don't know that I wouldn't- sure it would erase me and my country from history, but it would also erase so many genocides, the trans-Atlantic slave trade, possibly most of colonialism.

Teddy's thought exercise is an interesting one, but perhaps not quite the right question. Cloak or no cloak, Redcloak would have loads of followers and support; the hobgoblins don't follow him because of the Mantle, and he'd still be brilliant and retain all his class abilities. The question is whether he would continue to help Xykon, and I rather think he would, if Xykon allowed it. He wouldn't be very happy with Xykon and he'd probably feel like an utter loser for sticking by him despite the betrayal, but I think he'd still want to lend his support to the Plan in whatever capacity he could. Whether it's him or Jirix wearing the Mantle, the Plan is still the Plan, and if he abandons it his sunk cost issues flare up and he loses his identity.

A better question might be, what does Redcloak do if either a) all the gates are destroyed, permanently axing the Plan or b) he and Xykon actually manage to complete the ritual but the results are unexpected, and he somehow outlives the Plan? He's got the new hobgoblin nation as a fallback position, but that does nothing to resolve the overall Goblinoid Problem. I wonder what his next step would be? (Well, aside from killing Xykon, which would instantly become essential.)

[TheBST]

A better question might be, what does Redcloak do if either a) all the gates are destroyed, permanently axing the Plan or b) he and Xykon actually manage to complete the ritual but the results are unexpected, and he somehow outlives the Plan? He's got the new hobgoblin nation as a fallback position, but that does nothing to resolve the overall Goblinoid Problem. I wonder what his next step would be? (Well, aside from killing Xykon, which would instantly become essential.)

a) The world wil be destroyed.
b) Xykon will decided to conquer the world the old fashioned way and the new Goblin Civilisation will probably be destroyed in the process. And that's if the Gods don't get wise to their plan once it's failed.

[Zevox]

And remember, it's not a plot just to destroy the world; it's a plot to wipe the slate clean and start over properly.
No, it isn't. As I mentioned a few posts up, that's merely a possible side-effect if something goes wrong with The Plan. Redcloak's actual Plan is to acquire control of a Gate for the Dark One and then let him use it to threaten the other gods into giving Goblinoids a fair shake. He doesn't want to destroy the world and start from scratch, he's just resigned to the possibility that that may happen if he screws up and pleased to know that even if that happens, at least the next world will be better for Goblinoids.

Zevox

[Conuly]

Larkspur, you ever read Pastwatch? Sounds like it might be up your alley.


No one's ever had the opportunity. And remember, it's not a plot just to destroy the world; it's a plot to wipe the slate clean and start over properly.

I'd love to see how the Dark One envisions starting over "properly" without putting another group in the same position to do the same thing with the Snarl sooner or later. But wow, that's not topical of me. Sorry.

[Zxo]

Redcloak's madness started when he

put on the Crimson Mantle. Before that, he was modest, not too ambitious and wanted to serve his community in some small way. Sounds very much like his brother. Till now, the Crimson Mantle was worn by mature, high-level clerics, Redcloak was a young graduate when he put it on and I think its effects were too much for his young mind to handle.

The question is, did Redcloak understand The Dark One's intentions right? The Dark One wants equality for goblins and has a plan which involves Snarl, but does he support allying with an evil lich, killing other goblins and everything else Redcloak did? Maybe The Dark One does not want to do it regardless of the cost.

[CrazySopher]

No, it isn't. As I mentioned a few posts up, that's merely a possible side-effect if something goes wrong with The Plan. Redcloak's actual Plan is to acquire control of a Gate for the Dark One and then let him use it to threaten the other gods into giving Goblinoids a fair shake. He doesn't want to destroy the world and start from scratch, he's just resigned to the possibility that that may happen if he screws up and pleased to know that even if that happens, at least the next world will be better for Goblinoids.

Zevox

Mmm, was gonna say something like that but couldn't find the words. Not that it requires great literary prose or something; my sleep scheduale has been absolute crap these past few days. >_>

@ Larkspur: Sorry about the apology. :smalltongue: It's built into me at this point, given the institution I used to attend. Look up St. John's College in Annapolis if you like. It'll give you an idea.

A note about the eye: Xykon didn't cut it out, once again another mistake I made by memory. But I don't think we can look past the implications of it. Whether or not Xykon left his right eye cut out intentionally as a tongue-in-cheek reminder about his brother, you've got a pretty hard sell to make if you're going to try and say that getting his right eye cut out isn't a sign/omen/"whathaveyou" in that regard.

Post-Plan though... O_o that's... that's a pretty damn interesting idea, actually. I don't quite know how much farther I've looked than The Plan for that sort of thing, and I commend you for the idea. I'm.. not quite sure, actually. You're right about having his own nation to fall back on, at least initially. But the danger for Redcloak here is the same that every revolutionary faces once faced with the success of conquest. If his initial plan doesn't work, we'll say, does he lose his drive? He's not going to go to war if only to conquer, I don't think, and I can't see him simply growing old and depressed ruling over a stagnant Goblinoid country. Maybe he'll make some attempts to civilize it, make it hospitable and societal? That would involve accepting "human" customs and technology without either making himself sick or realizing that he's becoming that which he hates, and if he loses his hatred for Humans then one of his major driving factors is gone... and if not, then maybe diplomacy goes into the works? I doubt they're gonna let him off the hook ("They" being either the Order or other civilized races in general). Redcloak's actions are following the assumption that either he wins at The Plan, loses and dies as a result, or wins and then gets killed regardless. He's not factoring anything into post-Plan living, win or lose (due either to his Revolutionary nature, or his current lack of self-worth).

And then there's Xykon... that's a whole other can of worms. All the above assumes that Xykon is, for some reason, out of the way. If Xykon is still around after the fact, and decides to keep Redcloak around, then Redcloak has two options. He could try to get rid of Xykon and find another way, give up, what have you. This would most likely involve some act of subterfuge, possibly total war, probably an alliance-of-necessity with the Order, assuming it's still around (though this "alliance" might be the equivalent of Redcloak betraying Xykon in a fight between teams Good and Evil). If that doesn't happen, then most likely Redcloak would still hang around Xykon, frustrated but still vigilant in trying to find a Plan B. Being around Xykon would lend protection from the Order, while allowing access to an equally powerful Arcane caster should he need it. Also, there's the whole "betray me and I'm going to make you wish you were dead" bit. Though, if Xykon "lets him go", either to grab him when needed or because he's found someone better or different plan, Redcloak is going to be screwed. Between The Order, Xykon, and every other living Core Race on the planet, he'll have too many enemies and too few allies to keep his empire rolling.

Actually, now that I think of it, there is the possibility of Xykon letting Redcloak go before they get to control a gate, either because he found someone he thinks is more suitable/trustworthy, because he thinks that Redcloak will betray him, or because he thinks he's found an easier plan to follow. If that happens, Redcloak would need to find a way to either keep the Plan working by grabbing another Arcane caster of great power, find a different way, or (and perhaps most interestingly), find a way to stop Xykon from ending the planet, perhaps betraying those he allies with to do so in order to try and accomplish The Plan after Xykon dies. I wonder just who he could ally with... :wink:

@Zxo: That's an interesting theory all its own. What if he tries to bargain... and loses? What if the Dark One says "This is a terrible idea"? Does he go "Oh, ok man, I'll go put the Snarl back if that's all chill"?

This thread has turned Redcloak into my favorite OoTS character, at this point. o_o

[King of Nowhere]

I mean, here on earth there've been zillions of oppressed people time and time again, but none of them has plotted to destroy the whole planet to redress their grievances.

I bet some of them WOULD have if they ever had the opportunity. In fact, most of the oppressed people would have been the oppressors if only they were stronger. But I'm derailing topic here.

I think "redemption" for redcloak would be leave the plan and start a goblinoid civilization and try to live peacefully with the humans. Something he already agreed to do before Xykon put him on another path.

[Larkspur]

Larkspur, you ever read Pastwatch? Sounds like it might be up your alley.

Never heard of it. I'll have to check it out; thanks for the rec.


I'd love to see how the Dark One envisions starting over "properly" without putting another group in the same position to do the same thing with the Snarl sooner or later.

Well, people could get XP from nonsentient adversaries. I'd love to see why the heck he thinks the other gods will listen to him and let him do what he wants with the new world, but maybe he's hoping that even if they kill him in revenge, they'll still try to prevent this crap from recurring by not making undermenschen in OotS World 3.0.


The question is, did Redcloak understand The Dark One's intentions right? The Dark One wants equality for goblins and has a plan which involves Snarl, but does he support allying with an evil lich, killing other goblins and everything else Redcloak did? Maybe The Dark One does not want to do it regardless of the cost.

The Dark One can strip him of his class abilities at any time; every morning Redcloak has to request his spells from the Dark One. So we have to assume he approves of Operation Xykon. (And why not, really? So far Xykon has gotten two villages worth of goblins killed, plus some hobgoblins. As collateral damage for solving the Goblinoid Problem goes, that's nothing. The Sapphire Guard probably wiped out that many in a week.)


But the danger for Redcloak here is the same that every revolutionary faces once faced with the success of conquest. If his initial plan doesn't work, we'll say, does he lose his drive? He's not going to go to war if only to conquer, I don't think, and I can't see him simply growing old and depressed ruling over a stagnant Goblinoid country. Maybe he'll make some attempts to civilize it, make it hospitable and societal?

He's so Lawful that the lack of action might not bother him, honestly. He seems pretty happy to keep the evil trains running on time; I think he'd make a swell Supreme Leader.

The problem I foresee is that without the quest to drive him, all the bad stuff he's got buried in the back of his mind *cough*pointless murder of his brother*cough* would come creeping back to the surface, and I don't know he could handle that psychologically. And he's not preparing for it at all, because as you point out he's expecting martyrdom. (And given Xykon's probable reaction to the results of the ritual, that's not an unreasonable expectation.)

Re: Xykon- I think Xykon is in the Plan for the long haul. It's something to do, and Xykon doesn't really care about winning either, so he's not going to start shopping around for alternative world takeover strategies.

And as long as Xykon is working on the Plan, Redcloak is an irreplacably valuable ally. His loyalty is guaranteed by a number of factors, he's a reasonably strong caster in his own right, and he's a tactical genius. There's no percentage in dumping him.

Post-Plan, Xykon is going to be pretty annoyed. If he doesn't kill Redcloak outright, he might try to keep him on (it's embarrassing to have no minions, after all) but I suspect Redcloak will be having none of it. Post-Plan Xykon becomes a liability rather than an asset, and Redcloak will start looking for some way to dispose of him. (Presumably a less risky way than Right-Eye found.)


Between The Order, Xykon, and every other living Core Race on the planet, he'll have too many enemies and too few allies to keep his empire rolling.

Well, Xykon is a deadly and implacable foe, but it's not clear Redcloak and the hobgoblins couldn't handle the rest of them. He's pretty competent, and he's cautious enough not to make their civilization obnoxious to everyone by trying to conquer anything else until they're ready to defend themselves. Nobody has been leaping to retake Azure City.

Post Xykon allies... hm. There's always the IFCC. He'd totally accept a soul-splice, too. XD


This thread has turned Redcloak into my favorite OoTS character, at this point. o_o

He had me at "They're not called reactionals, you know." :smallsmile: