Fixing Epic.

[Tyndmyr]

Everyone's been looking at level 20 as the endgame...because once you hit Epic, things get frankly ridiculous. Especially with divine ranks and epic spellcasting.

This seems a wee bit odd...a level 23 should be more powerful than a level 20, sure, but not indefinitely so. How can this be fixed?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Ban epic spellcasting. SRSLY. I'm playing an epic cleric ATM and Improved Spell Capacity is just fine. But then again, I'm CoDzilla anyway...

[Tyndmyr]

Well, I like the idea of spellcasters getting something in epic...tenth level spells or what have you. And open-ended systems are lovely, but whenever things like "infinite" began being taken seriously, there are some significant issues.

Are certain seeds more problematic than others, or is it inherent in the mitigation allowed?

[Sinfire Titan]

Well, I like the idea of spellcasters getting something in epic...tenth level spells or what have you. And open-ended systems are lovely, but whenever things like "infinite" began being taken seriously, there are some significant issues.

Are certain seeds more problematic than others, or is it inherent in the mitigation allowed?

The problem is two-fold here:

1: Epic Spell Creation itself is broken. Either you use it the way it was intended, and it sucks because it takes too long to be practical, or you use it the optimal way, and it breaks the campaign. Mitigation is too powerful, but the process to create the spells is too weak without it.

2: Magic-based classes are the only ones who get decent abilities in Epic. Meldshapers, Binders, Psions, and Spellcasters are the only ones who have an Epic progression worth playing. Fighters, Rogues, and other classes become nearly obsolete above 21st level because their abilities do not improve (seriously, look at the Epic Fighter Bonus feats, and tell me half of those are level-appropriate feats). So many things in Epic play are immune ot crits or have an AC that is absurdly high that only the casters are able to mess with them (spell resistance be damned).

[Tyndmyr]

Dump epic spell creation entirely then? Expanding magic slots to 10th level, etc is probably sufficient. Even if the supply of actual 10th level spells is low, it provides easier access to metamagic, which is plenty valuable.

How to give more toys to the melee types? Hmm, better feats is obvious. Easier access to templates?

[Sinfire Titan]

Dump epic spell creation entirely then? Expanding magic slots to 10th level, etc is probably sufficient. Even if the supply of actual 10th level spells is low, it provides easier access to metamagic, which is plenty valuable.

How to give more toys to the melee types? Hmm, better feats is obvious. Easier access to templates?

More options for their Standard action helps. At Epic play, they will have a hard time keeping enemies in Full Attack range. Give them more powerful uses for their Standard actions and Move actions (such as natural Fly speeds for high Jump ranks).

[JeenLeen]

From my experience: when our party was level 18-20, we were fighting epic level characters. No epic spellcasting that we noticed, so probably no epic spellcasting; but epic nonetheless. 10th or 11th level spells, Multispell, epic feats, etc.

We handled it okay. I admit we were all playing casters in a rather optimized campaign, and thus CR-appropriate foes would be too easy, but the epic enemies were just strong enough more than us to be a challenging foe.

I do admit, for PCs, it might differ drastically, but I think it's more because of wealth than feats (assuming no Epic Spellcasting). A level 21 PC has drastically more wealth than a level 19 or 20, and that could make a large difference.


We did have Epic Spellcasting, but the DM limited mitigating factors a lot. No one besides party members could contribute to a Ritual spell, and the rods that helped (one that contribues xp and one that gives +10 Spellcraft) were banned, so the epic spells we could get didn't seem worth it.

[Cyclocone]

Epic spellcasting is rotten to the core. Just look at it, it reeks of being designed in a hurry.
It's not just that mitigation is broken, it's also that it's skill based, and skills are so retardedly easy to pump. Increasing duration is also laughably easy.
Even without ritual-abuse, it's very easy to make spells that raise your casting attribute to Tainted Scholar-esqu efficiency levels, and lasts a week. The only thing you need is time and money, and Epic WBL is Epic

And yes, some seeds are better than others. Mythal, Fortify, Summon and Reflect for instance are waaay better than Compell, Energy, Slay and Afflict.
The problem is that the broken seeds are also the the only ones worth a damn.
Everything else is either replicated easily by normal spells or has a restrictive sub-type like [Mind-Affecting] or [Death] that everything in Epic is immune to anyway.
Also, due to the nature of the system, it's very difficult to make a spell that can be used in combat effiently.


Oh, and by the way, Multispell is stupid as well. One feat for an extra action every round? and it's incremental? WTF??
Although it's actually not that bad if you limit it to a one time only feat.

[Shinizak]

I House rule that an epic spell is for story purposes only, and thus one time use. So if you wanted to create a spell to give you a divine rank and use it 5 times, you'd have to craft it 5 times, meaning you lose the required XP and money required, and there is no Mitigating Factor (mitigating factor only applies to the DC AFTER you pay for it) at all for this. This ensures no chain gate madness to make the god maker spell free, and it also ensures that the god maker spell can't be used again and again once the player has it.

Player's should have to pay for the power that they demand to wield.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd be more interested in an actual system for designing standard spells. Bigby, move over, wizard x is designing a differerent line of spells.

Strikes me as a way to involve the character in the world and get creative without being ridiculously powerful. After all, the standard spells came from somewhere, right? High level casters getting creative is the logical source, and when designing spells, it seems logical that you'd start small, not at epic proportions.

[Shinizak]

Ah, I see. Well then it'd probably have to be a line of spell feats. Say you wanted to make a new spell you'd have to get X number of feats (lets say 3) plus a number of feats equal to the spell level (for right now lets say it's a level 4 spell). So you'd need 7 feat slots just to make one spell.

[JeenLeen]

I'd be more interested in an actual system for designing standard spells. Bigby, move over, wizard x is designing a differerent line of spells.

Strikes me as a way to involve the character in the world and get creative without being ridiculously powerful. After all, the standard spells came from somewhere, right? High level casters getting creative is the logical source, and when designing spells, it seems logical that you'd start small, not at epic proportions.

I believe there's a very vague (without rules) mention of making new level 0-9 spells in the PHB or DMG. However, there are no mechanics for it. Just that the character takes time and money to research (and maybe xp; don't remember), and then can make a spell that is equivalent to other spells of that level.
Sadly, this assumes that all spells of the same level are equal and thus that you have a baseline that is perfectly comprehensible.

I would make it just one epic feat, if you don't allow it pre-epic. Craft Original Spell, or some such.

[industrious]

I think there were rules for making spells in Tome and Blood (back in 3.0). Correct me if I'm wrong, though; I lost my copy ages ago.

[JeminiZero]

As mentioned, part of the problem is ritual casting shenanigans. On the other hand, even with reasonably boosted spellcraft DC, an Epic Caster finds their Epic spells to be relatively ineffective.

Several things you could try is:
1) Ban all mitigation factors, force the epic spell to be cast "as is".

2) To prevent the epic spell from being ineffective, remove the spellcraft casting check. Instead, the Caster can automatically cast the spell if his base caster level (i.e. class features + feats, not including CL boosting spells and items) modified by some formula (multiply by 3 or 4 is probably a good starting point) equals or exceeds what was originally the spellcraft DC.

Making it automatic from a formula, based on caster level (and banning mitigation) makes the power of epic casting more tightly controlled for a particular level. If your multiplier is just right, the caster should still be able to devise and throw out reasonably powerful spells (without any mitigation), without being completely broken.

Adjust said formula as you play.

[Cyclocone]

Letting players make their own spells is half the problem with Epic Spellcasting anyway, because not everyone is going to pull a Tenser and make nothing but useless junk.
Obviously the DM should have the final say; but with custom spells, you either get OP sh*t or just plain sh*t. All the good spells are really already made.

That's the dilemma, it's either not worth it or always worth it.:smallfrown:

[Ravens_cry]

On the other hand, your freaking EPIC, only a hair short of a God, and sometimes not even that hair. World shattering feats of featatude should be par for the course. You're not just creatures of legend anymore, you're the kind of beings MYTHS are made of. You really ARE 7 feet tall and lightning bolts fly out of your arse. Of course, once you attain God-hood, you're in a completely different playing field. It's like (for a certain value of 'like') going from high school to collage, you're a stripling again. Now your enemies are creatures who may have been in existence since the creation of the universe, or before.
It's level one all over again.

[Curmudgeon]

Ban Epic spell seeds and everything that goes with them. Use the rules for higher-level spell slots as stated, so spellcasters can still keep ramping up the power, though more slowly. New spells should use the standard "spell research" method, which means time and DM approval for every one.

[Zeta Kai]

Ah, I see. Well then it'd probably have to be a line of spell feats. Say you wanted to make a new spell you'd have to get X number of feats (lets say 3) plus a number of feats equal to the spell level (for right now lets say it's a level 4 spell). So you'd need 7 feat slots just to make one spell.

Um, feats are far too precious to be blowing a half-dozen on spellcrafting. How many feats do you have? And what do the first 3 feats do? A human wizard 22 has 12 feats (7 level feats, 1 racial bonus, & 4 class bonus), can only replace replace one of them now with an epic feat, & can't do that again until 3 levels later. Under your system, it would take an epic human wizard until 30th level before they could craft a new 1st level spell. Ergo, nobody will ever do it, which makes no sense in or out of a game where wizards were making their own personal demiplanes 20 levels ago.

The feat idea isn't horrible, but it should cost a lot fewer feats to do so. Say, one epic feat to craft new spells for each school of magic. So, if you wanna make new spells in your chosen school (of any level), you could take that feat at 21st level. But if you wanna make spells in all schools, it'll take you a lot longer. Which is as it should be.

Alternateively, you could make one feat to craft 0th-level spells, & then take additional feats to craft higher level spells in a cumulative fashion. It still requires a 48th level wizard to make 9th-level spells, but your not wasting 3 feats to do so.


Ban Epic spell seeds and everything that goes with them. Use the rules for higher-level spell slots as stated, so spellcasters can still keep ramping up the power, though more slowly. New spells should use the standard "spell research" method, which means time and DM approval for every one.

Considering that spell-creation rules already exist, & they are not known for balance issues (IE they are not really seen as worth it), what Curmudgeon said is probably a better solution than spellcrafting feats.

[Shinizak]

I see, I do think if A person wants to be creating a spell, he'd better be willing to spend something for it.

(mostly I had a player who tried to take advantage of spell creation way back when, he didn't last long...)

[Myou]

See my sig for my personal fix.

[Sliver]

I believe there's a very vague (without rules) mention of making new level 0-9 spells in the PHB or DMG. However, there are no mechanics for it. Just that the character takes time and money to research (and maybe xp; don't remember), and then can make a spell that is equivalent to other spells of that level.
Sadly, this assumes that all spells of the same level are equal and thus that you have a baseline that is perfectly comprehensible.

I would make it just one epic feat, if you don't allow it pre-epic. Craft Original Spell, or some such.

I saw before some guidelines about making new spells.. It says that you should decide on the spell level, adjusting to fit in the powers of existing spells.. It said that, for example, no 1st level spell should be stronger than the strongest 1st level spell, magic missile.

[Tequila Sunrise]

My epic fix (http://lukebuchanan.com/TS_Epic_Level_Handbook_3e.pdf) involves:

1. Cutting out epic spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity and Multispell and replacing them with continued spell slots.

2. Writing clear guidelines for how many and how powerful magical items should be.

3. Removing emphasis on epic feats, because with so many to choose from it only widens the gap between optimizers and everyone else. Epic feats are tamer and epic characters get most of their power from their class abilities.

4. And installing a more gradual, balanced and all-around-better system for ascending to godhood.

[Milskidasith]

How do you base epic characters off their class abilities when all fighters get is feats? Hell, even stuff with class abilities (rogue, barbarian, ranger, monk) doesn't actually have anything nearly epic in it's basic class abilities.

[Glimbur]

I saw before some guidelines about making new spells.. It says that you should decide on the spell level, adjusting to fit in the powers of existing spells.. It said that, for example, no 1st level spell should be stronger than the strongest 1st level spell, magic missile.

Magic Missile is the strongest first level spell?

I agree that it's very difficult to write hard and fast rules for spell creation and that general guidelines interpreted by DM's are better... but without clear RAW we on the internet have less to argue about.

[Tyndmyr]

I believe there's a very vague (without rules) mention of making new level 0-9 spells in the PHB or DMG. However, there are no mechanics for it. Just that the character takes time and money to research (and maybe xp; don't remember), and then can make a spell that is equivalent to other spells of that level.
Sadly, this assumes that all spells of the same level are equal and thus that you have a baseline that is perfectly comprehensible.

I would make it just one epic feat, if you don't allow it pre-epic. Craft Original Spell, or some such.

I've seen that...it basically says "use existing spells as a guideline" and "run it by your DM". While, yes, you should do those, it's terribly vague.

I'd like to see some sort of a point buy system...where more points result in higher level spells. Obviously, mitigation through external means would have no place in this.

Hmmm...
(list of traditional primary and secondary effects by school)
If something has an effect that is primary for school other than it is in, +2 levels.
If something has an effect that is secondary for school other than the one it is, +1 level.
If the damage is force, decrease the damage die by one step. Must be evocation.

For starters...obviously, more is needed.

[Tyndmyr]

Also, I like the idea of tying spell creation to school-specific feats. Obviously, can't make spells for banned schools.

[Shpadoinkle]

Ban epic spellcasting. SRSLY. I'm playing an epic cleric ATM and Improved Spell Capacity is just fine. But then again, I'm CoDzilla anyway...

/thread

Keep giving spellcasters new spell slots beyond 9th level that they can fill with metamagiced spells or whatever, but there are no "real" 10th+ level spells available to PCs. If a character somehow gains access to spells of that level without it being a one-use gift from a deity or an archfiend or something equallly powerful, then the character has essentially become an (extremely minor) deity and should become an NPC.

Spellcasters still beat the **** out of core warriors and still have a significant edge over ToB classes without epic spellcasting at that level, but at least the other classes don't become literally obsolete at that point.

[ericgrau]

What if instead of banning epic spells you just ban mitigation factors except those specifically listed in the seeds? Sure the spells aren't the greatest thing in the world, but I mean you only pay a feat one time and half a level in xp per epic spell. Maybe just to leave it open as an option that some people might still want, but others will skip.

[Tyndmyr]

At that point, everyone will skip them. Because without mitigation, epic spells blow chunks.

[Mongoose87]

Perhaps something in order of metamagic reliance is necessary? Say, you continue to gain spell slots at a similar rate, above 9th level, but you are only able to fill them with metamagic'd lower level spells. This of course, would require the addition of more Epic level Metamagic Feats.

[ericgrau]

At that point, everyone will skip them. Because without mitigation, epic spells blow chunks.

Maybe once you hit 40th level? And there are some existing epic spells that don't use any nonstandard mitigation factors. Or you could allow custom mitigation factors only with DM approval.

[tyckspoon]

What if instead of banning epic spells you just ban mitigation factors except those specifically listed in the seeds? Sure the spells aren't the greatest thing in the world, but I mean you only pay a feat one time and half a level in xp per epic spell. Maybe just to leave it open as an option that some people might still want, but others will skip.

I'm not sure quite what you mean here- there *aren't* any mitigation factors listed in the seeds themselves (except Animate, where you can lower the base DC by using 'weaker' undead types), so this is the same as banning mitigation entirely. There are some ad-hoc extra abilities in the example spells, but Epic Spell abuse doesn't need to use those at all; the listed increase factors in the seeds already allow for being a Force Dragon with ability scores in the hundreds that is immune to everything it wants.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, but those spells tend to be rather poor, and I believe most of them used mitigation of some sort, often the damage. Massive amounts of self-damage pretty much negates any possibility of it being a combat spell.

[ericgrau]

I'm not sure quite what you mean here- there *aren't* any mitigation factors listed in the seeds themselves (except Animate, where you can lower the base DC by using 'weaker' undead types), so this is the same as banning mitigation entirely. There are some ad-hoc extra abilities in the example spells, but Epic Spell abuse doesn't need to use those at all; the listed increase factors in the seeds already allow for being a Force Dragon with ability scores in the hundreds that is immune to everything it wants.

D'oh. Then I suppose you need to write your own fixed list of allowable general purpose DC modifiers.

And like I said it's only a feat and some gold/xp. Eventually you should be at high enough level where it'll at least be worth the gold / xp cost and then it's a matter of a feat for getting all those spells vs. getting another maximized empowered energy drain.

[Oslecamo]

Yes, epic spellcasting is too epic.

Mind you, epic spellcasters should in theory be raping reality, since we're talking god-level power by now, but for a gaming perspective it isn't pretty.

So, I guess the player and DM should sit down, design sane 10th level spells, then go and ask the noncaster dudes what they would like in their epic progression, and be done with it.

This is, how common is for your characters to breack the 20th level barrier?

[Zeta Kai]

It said that, for example, no 1st level spell should be stronger than the strongest 1st level spell, magic missile.

So, who got to break the rules & craft all the spells that are demonstrably "stronger" than magic missile (IE more effective, more versatile, & more efficient), such as grease, sleep, true strike, command, etc? As a DM, I give NPC casters magic missile when they need to be more flashy than powerful. As a player, I only pick magic missile when I'm feeling sporting.

[tyckspoon]

So, who got to break the rules & craft all the spells that are demonstrably "stronger" than magic missile (IE more effective, more versatile, & more efficient), such as grease, sleep, true strike, command, etc? As a DM, I give NPC casters magic missile when they need to be more flashy than powerful. As a player, I only pick magic missile when I'm feeling sporting.

A lot of the existing guidelines on writing new spells are only concerned with damage output (for example, the only really concrete guides I can remember in any books are about where the dice caps should be for various level arcane spells, and that divine spells should have about half that unless they're hitting undead/evil/outsiders.) In that perspective, Magic Missile has some good things going for it; it always always hits and force damage is nigh impossible to resist. Its biggest flaw is that it scales very poorly. You should not create a first level spell that is a more effective damage-dealer than Magic Missile. That doesn't mean you can't make one that does bigger dice or scales more rapidly; it just has to fail more easily (with a save, touch attack, or even regular attack roll) or be of a less useful energy type. You're allowed to make a spell that would be objectively better than Magic Missile as long as it isn't competing with Magic Missile in direct damage. (Of course, that conceit has been broken several times as well, with various new 1st level spells that do decent damage and scale well, or are AoEs or have various other nice things. I suspect this is because somebody realized that Magic Missile really wasn't all that good, just like they eventually figured out that it was ok to give a race a Strength bonus without crippling counter"balancing" penalties.)

[ericgrau]

Magic missile is utterly awesome for everything except dealing damage against regular foes. Incorporeal creatures, mirror images (1 missile per image), foes with improved cover (+8 touch AC, +4 reflex saves, etc.), multiple mooks (just empower the magic missile and use 1 per target), etc. A better 1st level spell for comparison would be a single target fire damage ray, with damage in between acid orb x2 (since acid ~ 1/2 fire damage) and scorching ray. Maybe 1d4 per caster level capping at 5d4 at level 5. Like burning hands but a ranged touch instead of a save.

[Mongoose87]

Magic missile is utterly awesome for everything except dealing damage against regular foes. Incorporeal creatures, mirror images, foes with improved cover (+8 touch AC, +4 reflex saves, etc.), multiple mooks (just empower the magic missile), etc. A better 1st level spell for comparison would be a single target fire damage ray, with damage in between acid orb x2 (since acid ~ 1/2 fire damage) and scorching ray. Maybe 1d4 per caster level capping at 5d4 at level 5. Like burning hands but a ranged touch instead of a save.

Like Orb of Sound?

[taltamir]

On the other hand, your freaking EPIC, only a hair short of a God, and sometimes not even that hair. World shattering feats of featatude should be par for the course. You're not just creatures of legend anymore, you're the kind of beings MYTHS are made of. You really ARE 7 feet tall and lightning bolts fly out of your arse. Of course, once you attain God-hood, you're in a completely different playing field. It's like (for a certain value of 'like') going from high school to collage, you're a stripling again. Now your enemies are creatures who may have been in existence since the creation of the universe, or before.
It's level one all over again.

exactly... I say, when you reach epic, convert to an "epic" gaming system (i hear exhalted is very "epicish") if you want to fight gods.

DnD is just not built right... you can stretch, but it breaks really quickly.

But you absolutely must make DnD epic. Then I say, no such thing as an epic spell.. instead:
1. when something calls for an opposing level roll between two casters. And one of them is epic and one is not. The epic gains +3. - might want to ignore that one
2. you gain spell slots as usualy for spell levels 10+ to use with metamagic
3. you gain more metamagic feats more often to make use of those extra spell levels.
4. martial characters were always using magic, they were just using specialized magic to empower their attacks and protect their body. Now they are more overt about it and can do appropriately amazing things. (aka, develop serious resistances and immunities, hit ridiculously large amounts of times, add raw magic damage to their strikes, bypass specific damage reductions by empowering their blades, etc).

Frankly, make things simpler. dump the stupid vanacian system altogether... casters get spell points pool like psionic, casting / preparing a spell of any sort takes points. You are limited to spending as many "points" as your caster level. And they progress normally beyond level 20.

[Volkov]

On the other hand, your freaking EPIC, only a hair short of a God, and sometimes not even that hair. World shattering feats of featatude should be par for the course. You're not just creatures of legend anymore, you're the kind of beings MYTHS are made of. You really ARE 7 feet tall and lightning bolts fly out of your arse. Of course, once you attain God-hood, you're in a completely different playing field. It's like (for a certain value of 'like') going from high school to collage, you're a stripling again. Now your enemies are creatures who may have been in existence since the creation of the universe, or before.
It's level one all over again.

Level 21 fighters typically get their butts whupped easily by gods.....

[taltamir]

Level 21 fighters typically get their butts whupped easily by gods.....

one of the many ways epic is broken... my solution for fighters was to say they are mages who applied magic to themselves throughout their career to toughen themselves and boost strength and con etc... and now at epic they get REAL ultimate power TM type of boosting.

[Volkov]

Heck, I've seen level 21 wizards get defeated by gods who outsmarted them at their game.

[Akal Saris]

Well, a level 21 wizard is pretty much the raw beginnings of epic level after all.

I think the easiest and best solution for epic is simply to limit spellcasters to 9th level spells and creating new spells within the borderlines of 9th level spells, and create new feats and class abilities to quickly bring the non-magical types up to par with them, as opposed to the junk epic feats and their ridiculous skills requirements that currently exist.

[taltamir]

creating brand new classes, feats, and spells and making sure they are all balanced is hardly the "easiest" way of going about it.

[FatR]

Everyone's been looking at level 20 as the endgame...because once you hit Epic, things get frankly ridiculous. Especially with divine ranks and epic spellcasting.

This seems a wee bit odd...a level 23 should be more powerful than a level 20, sure, but not indefinitely so. How can this be fixed?
Rename levels 13+ "epic" and plan the campaign accordingly. Downgrading of certain super-high DC entities might be in order, unless PCs optimize hardcore (you might want to do so anyway, to avoid breaking the setting in half), but otherwize there is still more crazy stuff at these levels than in 95-99% of fantasy literature.

Otherwise, ban epic spellcasting and write high-level feats for martial characters yourself.

[bosssmiley]

I do like FatR's idea. 'Epic' is a state of mind, not a function of levels. Heck, by any non-DBZ/Exalted fantasy benchmark L20 in D&D is epic. You characters have been flying around on dragonback and visiting other planes for half their level total by then!

If you really want to fix Epic though, you can start by opening the window and defenestrating your copy of the Epic Level Jokebook. It is nothing but several hundred pages of gas-huffing, poorly edited, unplaytested, unusable gobbledeguk.

Having stepped away from the crack-fuelled scat-hurlery that is the ELH, you can then:

Fix Core. You can't build something worthwhile on bad foundations. Specifically:

Let the non-casters have level-appropriate skill uses, feats and abilities above 10th level or so.
sifting away from the utter dependence on magic items and effects that ruins levels 10+. Sufficiently awesome mundane abilities should be indistinguishable from magic. ToB was a good start here.
Scale back DCs and fix the bonus stacking and "X to Y ability" paradigms so that +220 ability checks aren't possible or necessary at lvl 20.

Can Epic spellcasting. Replace it with either enhanced (10th+) metamagic slots, or with the old 10th level/realm/quest spells (that worked in Dark Sun, Faerun, Birthright and Player's Option 2E). These were spells that did (big, impressive) set things, at a set cost, with set requirements.
No absolute abilities. Immunity should be replaced with larger resistances, that scale-by-level in a sane manner. Every 'immunity' can be beaten by sufficient damage/CL check/etc.
Virtual HD/scaling bonus HP for monsters. Being a big, dumb meat wall shouldn't give you saves in the stratosphere simply because the designer has system-induced tunnel vision.

[Oslecamo]

Fix Core. You can't build something worthwhile on bad foundations.
If you consider that D&D foundations are so bad, why don't you go play some of the other dozens of systems out there? Seems a lot easier than redesigning the system from scratch mind you.



Specifically:

Let the non-casters have level-appropriate abilities above 10th level or so by shifting away from their utter dependence on magic items.

Because we all know that casters don't also rely in magic items. Tell a wizard that there's no scroll'rus and laugh as he cries himself to sleep.



Scale back DCs and fix the bonus stacking and "X to Y ability" paradigms so that +220 ability checks aren't possible or necessary at lvl 20.
Well, actually a good idea, it's too easy to stack multiple stuff on D&D. But mind you, that's mostly a noncore problem. The only thing that stacks easily in core is aid another.



Can Epic spellcasting. Replace it with either enhanced (10th+) metamagic slots, or with the old 10th level/realm/quest spells (that worked in Dark Sun, Faerun, Birthright and Player's Option 2E). These were spells that did (big, impressive) set things, at a set cost, with set requirements.

Except that it's kinda harder to get stronger effects that several 9th and 8th level spells whitout being horribly broken.



No absolute abilities. Immunity should be replaced with larger resistances, that scale-by-level in a sane manner. Every 'immunity' can be beaten by sufficient damage/CL check/etc.

And then we have even more focus on super-specialization. The fact that monsters have immunities is the only reason casters are forced to prepare multiple kinds of threats.



Virtual HD/scaling bonus HP for monsters. Being a big, dumb meat wall shouldn't give you saves in the stratosphere simply because the designer has system-induced tunnel vision.

It should, precisely because you're a big dumb meat wall. If you don't have stratospheric saves togheter with stratospheric HP, you're just a big dumb sheet of paper.

[Tyndmyr]

So, who got to break the rules & craft all the spells that are demonstrably "stronger" than magic missile (IE more effective, more versatile, & more efficient), such as grease, sleep, true strike, command, etc? As a DM, I give NPC casters magic missile when they need to be more flashy than powerful. As a player, I only pick magic missile when I'm feeling sporting.

Now, now, magic missile isn't that bad in itself.

However, as mentioned by others, damage was considered the kingpin ability, and things tended to get balanced around that. Of course, at first level, using a magic missile for raw damage isn't usually that impressive compared to sleep or grease.

Damage is actually the easiest thing to build guidelines for players. Use damage dice based off comparable spells, add modifiers for nifty things like SR:No, touch, etc. That's pretty straightforward.

Various stun/disables are probably next easiest, assign a value to each type of effect based on how dehabilitating it is, and how easy it is to negate, and adjust for number of rounds.

What's really hard to balance are the utility spells. Prestidigitation has not particularily numerically measurable traits.

[woodenbandman]

New Game +:

you revert to 1 hit die, but keep all your abilities and items, and fight monsters 7 CR higher than you.

[Jack_Simth]

Dump epic spell creation entirely then? Expanding magic slots to 10th level, etc is probably sufficient. Even if the supply of actual 10th level spells is low, it provides easier access to metamagic, which is plenty valuable.
The ways to actually break it basically boil down to mitigating to 0 DC - which means no GP, no time, and no XP to research. Fixing it amounts to limiting that; one or more of:

1) A % cap on Mitigation (e.g., you cannot Mitigate an Epic spell below 25% of the pre-mitigation DC)
2) Make the time to research the Epic spell based on the Pre-Mitigation DC
3) Make the monetary cost to research the Epic spell based on the Pre-Mitigation DC
4) Make the XP cost to research the Epic spell based on the Pre-Mitigation DC
5) Actually reading through the bit that says "all Epic spells require DM approval" and having the DM put some sanity filters in place.

[Milskidasith]

If you consider that D&D foundations are so bad, why don't you go play some of the other dozens of systems out there? Seems a lot easier than redesigning the system from scratch mind you.


I believe, along with everybody else, that he meant that core was badly balanced, not that D&D in general was a bad system.


Because we all know that casters don't also rely in magic items. Tell a wizard that there's no scroll'rus and laugh as he cries himself to sleep.


See, the thing is, a Fighter needs an item that lets him fly, items that let him hit ethereal creatures, items that let him escape from various situations (grapples, trip attempts, etc.), items that keep him from being hit by death or mind affecting effects, and more just to get what a wizard can get with spells (and to beat CR appropriate encounters.) A wizard without scrolls is still a wizard that knows every spell, and the wizard can still prepare good spells. They don't need scrolls to function, they're a convenience.


Well, actually a good idea, it's too easy to stack multiple stuff on D&D. But mind you, that's mostly a noncore problem. The only thing that stacks easily in core is aid another.

Epic spellcasting is what allows you to stack a bunch of two-three month casting time permanent epic spells with different bonus types. Even if it is a non-core only problem, this is a discussion on fixing epic, not fixing core.



Except that it's kinda harder to get stronger effects that several 9th and 8th level spells whitout being horribly broken.

Which would tie in with the "fix the balance of core" thing. Besides, he also suggested 10th level metamagic slots, which just means you can, without any abuse, empower your time stops or maximize your meteor swarms (after a while, anyway.)


And then we have even more focus on super-specialization. The fact that monsters have immunities is the only reason casters are forced to prepare multiple kinds of threats.

Super specialization isn't even focused on at all for wizards... their whole point is that they can do whatever is necessary. Besides, if "immunity to mind affecting" is replaced with "+20 to saves against mind affecting" then they'd still find it practically impossible to beat. Still, I dislike the whole "no immunities" thing as well, just saying it wouldn't lead to super specialization.




It should, precisely because you're a big dumb meat wall. If you don't have stratospheric saves togheter with stratospheric HP, you're just a big dumb sheet of paper.

I see no problem with this, although I don't see too many monsters with absurd amounts of HP and absurdly high saves.

[Oslecamo]

I believe, along with everybody else, that he meant that core was badly balanced, not that D&D in general was a bad system.

There's a diference between bad system and balance. In most systems out there, balance is dependant of the players don't abusing holes they may find and the DM keeping a watchfull eye.

Now epic spellcasting is both unbalanced and badly designed, because everything is either it's too expensive or too good, but plenty of people play core and are fine with it because they aren't actively trying to breack the game, since there's plenty of middle ground to play in.



See, the thing is, a Fighter needs an item that lets him fly, items that let him hit ethereal creatures, items that let him escape from various situations (grapples, trip attempts, etc.), items that keep him from being hit by death or mind affecting effects, and more just to get what a wizard can get with spells (and to beat CR appropriate encounters.) A wizard without scrolls is still a wizard that knows every spell, and the wizard can still prepare good spells. They don't need scrolls to function, they're a convenience.

No, a wizard has no way of learning more spells if he doesn't find other scrolls/spellbooks(the later wich aren't even sold), and if he's limited to the 2/level, then his power level drops like a rock.

Plus half the things you mentioned up there can be done with feats, and the other half assumes the party is, well, working as a party, and not as a bunch of individualists.




Epic spellcasting is what allows you to stack a bunch of two-three month casting time permanent epic spells with different bonus types. Even if it is a non-core only problem, this is a discussion on fixing epic, not fixing core.
Well, tell that to bossmiley would you?



Which would tie in with the "fix the balance of core" thing. Besides, he also suggested 10th level metamagic slots, which just means you can, without any abuse, empower your time stops or maximize your meteor swarms (after a while, anyway.)

Make up your mind. You're asking to change core or not? Plus, well, metamagic reducers are one of the most broken things you can find in D&D.



Super specialization isn't even focused on at all for wizards... their whole point is that they can do whatever is necessary. Besides, if "immunity to mind affecting" is replaced with "+20 to saves against mind affecting" then they'd still find it practically impossible to beat. Still, I dislike the whole "no immunities" thing as well, just saying it wouldn't lead to super specialization.

Here's the catch:

Monster with immunity:caster sucks it up and must use a nonbroken way of killing the monster(normally magic missile).
Monster with +9000 to save: caster finds a way to spam the spell untill the monster rolls a 1, or gets a way to lower his saves(negative levels are popular for this) or just finds a spell that doesn't allow save at all (as the dreaded orbs).



I see no problem with this, although I don't see too many monsters with absurd amounts of HP and absurdly high saves.
A monster whose only defense is high HP is pathetically easy to lock down with a variety of effects, and then you simply coup de grace it untill it dies. That's the problem.

High saves are derived from how many HDs you have, and many epic "brute" monsters have butloads of HD for their CR.

Plus advancement rules. The "weaker" races only increase 1 CR for each 4HD. This means they get +1.3 to their weak saves for each +1 CR. Plus 1.3 feats, and skill points, and HP. This piles up quickly, and so you can turn normally weak brute monsters into mighty big brute monsters.

[ericgrau]

Like Orb of Sound?
No, that's why I said it specifically must be fire damage. Sonic and acid damage should be reduced, and the spell should allow SR. No SR should do less damage. And the spell should be evocation. Mechanics aside, purely roleplaying now, how do you create a non-magical ball of sound to throw at your enemies?!?!? This is why the orb spells are so broken.

So the next question is whether or not to have 10th level spells (beyond metamagic), and what's appropriate for them both for damage and non-damage.

And I'll second that if you think the base system is utterly horrible , go play another system or else or spend months and months starting from scratch. I think it's best to assume everyone is using the same core as a baseline and build rules off of that, then if anyone wants to add house rules on their own they can do so.

[Zeta Kai]

New Game +:

you revert to 1 hit die, but keep all your abilities and items, and fight monsters 7 CR higher than you.

Now that sounds like a fun idea. It also sounds like rocket tag: you hit them, & your nigh-epic powers/items atomize the competition; they hit you, & your 1HD is inverted into negative paste.

[Shinizak]

Now that sounds like a fun idea. It also sounds like rocket tag: you hit them, & your nigh-epic powers/items atomize the competition; they hit you, & your 1HD is inverted into negative paste.

I imagine that it would keep the players on their toes...

[Milskidasith]

There's a diference between bad system and balance. In most systems out there, balance is dependant of the players don't abusing holes they may find and the DM keeping a watchfull eye.


That's what I said. Are you actually reading what I post, or just reading two words and then deciding to argue against me? You are the one who said "Play something else" when somebody mentioned core wasn't balanced and now you say that balance and being a bad system are different? Anyway, you shouldn't invoke rule 0 (DM can change things) to prove the system is balanced, and even with Rule 0 spellcasting requires absurd amounts of changes to be fixed (in both epic and nonepic.)


Now epic spellcasting is both unbalanced and badly designed, because everything is either it's too expensive or too good, but plenty of people play core and are fine with it because they aren't actively trying to breack the game, since there's plenty of middle ground to play in.

Again, using Rules -1 (don't be a jerk) and rule 0 (DM > RAW) aren't a good way of arguing for balance.


No, a wizard has no way of learning more spells if he doesn't find other scrolls/spellbooks(the later wich aren't even sold), and if he's limited to the 2/level, then his power level drops like a rock.

Once again, rule 0ing the ability to buy spells to copy from other spellbooks (which is in the rules) is not a good way to argue things. In an unrelated note, if you let Fighters naturally gain the ability to fly, there's no need for them to get a magic item!


Plus half the things you mentioned up there can be done with feats, and the other half assumes the party is, well, working as a party, and not as a bunch of individualists.

Ok, give me the feat that gives you: Natural flying ability, immunity to all death spells, immunity to all mind affecting spells, the ability to hit incorporeal creatures, the ability to automatically see through all illusions, or hell, anything along the lines of getting around immunities like those. As for the second part... just because the wizard can cast fly on the fighter doesn't mean the fighter is worth something, and to go to epic, just because the wizard can give the fighter +AN to everything doesn't mean the fighter is good in epic.


Make up your mind. You're asking to change core or not? Plus, well, metamagic reducers are one of the most broken things you can find in D&D.

False dichotomy. I am for fixing both core (epic and nonepic), and non core. You can do both, you know. I never said not to fix core.


Monster with immunity:caster sucks it up and must use a nonbroken way of killing the monster(normally magic missile).

You honestly think Magic Missile is used as a standby spell at epic? It's good, but... not great at epic, and it's really unlikely anything at lower levels is immune to everything you can cast.


Monster with +9000 to save: caster finds a way to spam the spell untill the monster rolls a 1, or gets a way to lower his saves(negative levels are popular for this) or just finds a spell that doesn't allow save at all (as the dreaded orbs).

Ok, so you burn 20 spell slots to spam something a monster has almost effective immunity to. That's still a pretty long amount of time spamming spells when even magic missile (which isn't that great) would have done the job quicker. As for the orbs... you do realize one of the suggestions was giving monsters high resistances in place of immunity, right? Resistance = Absurd is effectively immunity.



A monster whose only defense is high HP is pathetically easy to lock down with a variety of effects, and then you simply coup de grace it untill it dies. That's the problem.

I didn't say it wasn't. It seems you are intent on misreading my posts to argue points I'm not making. Everything is pathetically easy to lock down for a wizard, in fact, and at epic it's even worse.


High saves are derived from how many HDs you have, and many epic "brute" monsters have butloads of HD for their CR.

Yes, many brute force epic monsters have high saves. Let's look at the tarrasque. +20 as his lowest save, at CR 20. Pretty impressive... except he can't fly. Bye bye, tarrasque. Saves aren't the big issue; it's that wizards can do everything and anything without spellcasting will always have a weakness a wizard can exploit, and the wizard will always have a way of being invulnerable. Brute force meat walls with high HD and saves are a good concept, but they're terrible past maybe level 11.


Plus advancement rules. The "weaker" races only increase 1 CR for each 4HD. This means they get +1.3 to their weak saves for each +1 CR. Plus 1.3 feats, and skill points, and HP. This piles up quickly, and so you can turn normally weak brute monsters into mighty big brute monsters.

Yes, because we all know that a 80 HD Viper can use it's high saves to get around invisibility and flight.

[ericgrau]

Out of curiosity, what do you hit the tarrasque with after you fly away?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Dominate Monster/Monstrous Thrall/etc. SR might be a problem, but not particularly.

[Milskidasith]

Or just heavily metamagic'd orbs for no SR. You only have to float directly above his reach, which isn't particularly hard.

[ericgrau]

Dominate Monster/Monstrous Thrall/etc. SR might be a problem, but not particularly.

15% chance of succeeding against both will save and SR each round, assuming standard rolled stats, magic items and int increases by level. And a party level at which a CR 20 challenge isn't just a random encounter. Splatbook abilities & spells, higher stats, etc. make it easier of course, but then the DM should bolster all monsters to match. So three questions:

1. Where do you get your 4th, 5th and 6th 9th level spell slot?
2. Do you tag your party with fly, or do you just leave them to engage the tarrasque. And if you do tag them with fly a) why did you have that many prepared and b) do you just let them and yourself engage Mr T during the 3 rounds you spend casting it?
3. How do you kill the dominated tarrasque?

[Milskidasith]

15% chance of succeeding against both will save and SR each round, assuming standard rolled stats, magic items and int increases by level. And a party level at which a CR 20 challenge isn't just a random encounter. Splatbook abilities & spells, higher stats, etc. make it easier of course, but then the DM should bolster all monsters to match. So two questions:

1. Where do you get your 4th, 5th and 6th 9th level spell slot?
2. Do you tag your party with fly, or do you just leave them to engage the tarrasque. And if you do tag them with fly a) how did you have that many prepared and b) do you just let them and yourself engage Mr T during the 3 rounds you spend casting it?

Who needs a party? Hell, you don't even need to cast it, a graft of flying is like 10k and everybody who can't use magic should get one.

[taltamir]

Who needs a party? Hell, you don't even need to cast it, a graft of flying is like 10k and everybody who can't use magic should get one.

what is that and where do i find it?

and on that note... phantasmal steed...
Or you can just get the horseshoes of flying for real horses... or nail them to your own boots!

DMG p257: Figurine of Wondrous Power – Obsidian Steed

Then there is this item which just boggles my mind: DMG p260: Horseshoes of a
Zephyr.
4 Horseshoes.
When all 4 are worn by an appropriate
creature, it travels at 4” above the surface.
This allows it to walk / run over water,
snow, mud, etc., at normal speed without
leaving tracks.

So clearly, it flies, but only 4 inches above the ground...

[Foryn Gilnith]

Splatbook abilities & spells, higher stats, etc. make it easier of course, but then the DM should bolster all monsters to match.
Well, yes, in theory; DM should. But too few DMs I see actually do, making the Tarrasque a relatively pitiful beast. Key word "relatively" here - if we're using your assumptions, it's still a higher-power-level challenge.



1. Where do you get your 4th, 5th and 6th 9th level spell slot?

As this point sort of demonstrates, the tactic chosen is a bit iffy; primarily because there's no guarantee of being 17th level when your GM decides to pull out the massive Tarrasque boss fight. But it was concocted on short notice, after noticing Tarrasque's non-immunity to mind-affecting effects.



2. Do you tag your party with fly, or do you just leave them to engage the tarrasque. And if you do tag them with fly a) why did you have that many prepared and b) do you just let them and yourself engage Mr T during the 3 rounds you spend casting it?

If, for whatever reason, your party lacks flying items, you tag them all. You have them all prepared because the Tarrasque isn't the only enemy where Mass Fly would be quite helpful. Or, alternatively, you have items or a secondary caster to help. And because Fly has a neat little duration, you don't need to waste rounds. The tarrasque doesn't exactly sneak up on you.



3. How do you kill the dominated tarrasque?
Plane Shift into the Elemental Plane of Water. Or just don't kill it - you have plenty of things to do with a dominated tarrasque. When the duration is in danger of expiring, spam Dominate Monster again. But this isn't necessarily the best tactic. You could try orbs, which are neither rays nor lines. Or you could just try to snipe it for more than 40 hp/round. Difficult, but doable.


Why are we discussing this again? :P

[taltamir]

you don't get XP for killing something, but for overcoming an encounter (and a there is always exactly 1 terrasque, so killing it just means another is created)... dominating it into fighting your enemies seems like overcoming to me... enjoy your XP. which you can repeat as it is conveniently in your grasp (instead of hunting for it), and docile, and predictable duration of enslavement.

[Tyndmyr]

The ways to actually break it basically boil down to mitigating to 0 DC - which means no GP, no time, and no XP to research. Fixing it amounts to limiting that; one or more of:

1) A % cap on Mitigation (e.g., you cannot Mitigate an Epic spell below 25% of the pre-mitigation DC)
2) Make the time to research the Epic spell based on the Pre-Mitigation DC
3) Make the monetary cost to research the Epic spell based on the Pre-Mitigation DC
4) Make the XP cost to research the Epic spell based on the Pre-Mitigation DC
5) Actually reading through the bit that says "all Epic spells require DM approval" and having the DM put some sanity filters in place.

Time can be negated almost effortlessly by a demiplane with a different rate of time flow. Honestly, you're going to be doing all touchy work on your own private demiplane anyhow, why *wouldn't* you make the time flow extremely fast there compared to outside?

Money can be negated in a wild variety of means at epic levels. This isn't much more than an annoying hassle, and if necessary, they could first craft an easier spell to create money. Once created, see above regarding time.

XP is an actual cost. Well, if you must pay it. If you can get others to pay it, you simply don't care.

You can dump anything on the DM, but that doesn't actually fix the ruleset, it just avoids fixing it by shifting the responsibility elsewhere. IMO, DMs have enough to worry about without sifting through epic spells in detail.

A cap on mitigation seems interesting...I'd prefer something a bit more natural and intuitive than an actual hard cap...I just need to figure out how.


On the core vs epic issue...core may not be perfect, but it's much better than epic balance-wise. I'd be happy if epic was about as balanced as core, and declare it a massive improvement.

[Xenogears]

what is that and where do i find it?

They are talking about the feathered wings graft from the Fiend Folio. You graft a pair of evil/demonic feathered wings to your back. This lets you fly at twice your normal speed with good manuverability. It also turns nuetral characters evil (okay a will save per day or do an evil act but eventually it will turn you evil just from Nat 1's unless you have mettle) and Wis Drains good characters. Even if you are evil it gives everyone a -6 penalty on all cha-based skill checks with good NPC's so not even all evil characters will want one.

So assuming you are a evil character who is either insanely good at social skills or doesn't care about them then they are just about the best means to gain flight there is since they are cheap, permanent, always active, and non-magical.

[taltamir]

They are talking about the feathered wings graft from the Fiend Folio. You graft a pair of evil/demonic feathered wings to your back. This lets you fly at twice your normal speed with good manuverability. It also turns nuetral characters evil (okay a will save per day or do an evil act but eventually it will turn you evil just from Nat 1's unless you have mettle) and Wis Drains good characters. Even if you are evil it gives everyone a -6 penalty on all cha-based skill checks with good NPC's so not even all evil characters will want one.

So assuming you are a evil character who is either insanely good at social skills or doesn't care about them then they are just about the best means to gain flight there is since they are cheap, permanent, always active, and non-magical.

Nice...
and the bolded part made me laugh.

[Xenogears]

Nice...
and the bolded part made me laugh.

Yes the fact that magically grafting a creature made out of magic's body onto someone is somehow non-magical is just one more example of craziness in the rules.

I want to someday make a magic hating paladin who is immune to stat drain who has this grafted onto him...

[Oslecamo]

and docile, and predictable duration of enslavement.

Actually, wotc has stated that even if you dominate the tarrasque, his nature is still to destroy everything in view, so either you direct his rampage somewhere else, or he'll get more saves against the dominate monster spell, and end up breaking out of it.

Of course, if you direct his rampage somewhere else, there will be people pissed off about it. Congratulations, you became the new public enemy #1.

[Milskidasith]

Actually, wotc has stated that even if you dominate the tarrasque, his nature is still to destroy everything in view, so either you direct his rampage somewhere else, or he'll get more saves against the dominate monster spell, and end up breaking out of it.

Of course, if you direct his rampage somewhere else, there will be people pissed off about it. Congratulations, you became the new public enemy #1.

Which, as a wizard who can cast 9th level spells, means little unless the other high level wizards feel like bothering with you. Besides, the Tarrasque can actually be killed by direct damage if you want to; orbs can be fairly easily metamagic'd. It isn't a very difficult encounter, really.

[Grumman]

Of course, if you direct his rampage somewhere else, there will be people pissed off about it. Congratulations, you became the new public enemy #1.
What, you've run out of acceptable targets? Why not let the orcs play the "Aaah! Gojira!" game for a while?

[Oslecamo]

Which, as a wizard who can cast 9th level spells, means little unless the other high level wizards feel like bothering with you. Besides, the Tarrasque can actually be killed by direct damage if you want to; orbs can be fairly easily metamagic'd. It isn't a very difficult encounter, really.

The other wizards may let you away with it, but enough angry clerics will bring down a wizard, and clerics really don't like you killing their worshipers.

Anyway puting the tarrasque into an open area is as smart DM move as puting an abolet inside an antimagic cage in the midle of the desert, or a fire element inside water.

The tarrasque is suposed to fight you inside a big cave, where he'll be able to reach everyone and anyone. Part of his treasure will be an amulet of mighty blows so he can hurt ethereals, the rest of the treasure is up to the DM's imagination. Also swap several of the uselss feats for more usefull stuff. With ToB you can even make the tarrasque fly giving him the right stance!

If the party is optimizing the classes, it's only fair the DM optimizes the monsters.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Of course, if you direct his rampage somewhere else, there will be people pissed off about it. Congratulations, you became the new public enemy #1.
Well...

What, you've run out of acceptable targets? Why not let the orcs play the "Aaah! Gojira!" game for a while?


The world is not unified. There will not be a United Nations out to get you. And, as a good, patriotic feudal ex-peasant, I have a kingdom to be loyal to. A kingdom with many enemies, which my king would not object to seeing destroyed. Dominate the Tarrasque to annihilate an enemy kingdom, preferably one that's oppressive/evil/etc. Then, when you're all done and everything in sight is wrecked, offer to teleport the Tarrasque somewhere else. Somewhere else to destroy. Then cast planeshift on the willing target and watch it flounder in the elemental water plane.

[Oslecamo]

Then cast planeshift on the willing target and watch it flounder in the elemental water plane.

Why would he be willing? Dominate monster clearly states that suicidical orders never work.

Plus wizards still need to sleep. What do you do once you wake up from your dimension hole and you discover your pet tarrasque ate the king and razed the capital since there was nothing else nearby?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Why would he be willing? Dominate monster clearly states that suicidical orders never work.
The Tarrasque has no ranks in Spellcraft. For all he knows, his friend and master is teleporting him to a new, fresh area to slaughter.



Plus wizards still need to sleep. What do you do once you wake up from your dimension hole and you discover your pet tarrasque ate the king and razed the capital since there was nothing else nearby?

Drat. Foiled. Tag-team? Pull an all-nighter? Heward's Fortifying Bedroll?

Use Monstrous Thrall so that suicidal and counter-intuitive commands only get one save, and that at a penalty?

Tarrasques only wake for 1d3 days. Pull an all-nighter the first day, Heward's Fortifying Bedroll the second day (you can keep it an hour away from any crucial targets), and just suck it up the third day, if you have a third day.

But again, I'm not sure how this is relevant to fixing epic.

PS: Because I didn't notice...

The tarrasque is suposed to fight you inside a big cave, where he'll be able to reach everyone and anyone.

If the tarrasque is in a cave, why do you give a damn? It's only a problem if it's outside. If he's guarding a McGuffin, stealth in.

[Tyndmyr]

...stuff... With ToB you can even make the tarrasque fly giving him the right stance!

If the party is optimizing the classes, it's only fair the DM optimizes the monsters.

Optimizing is done within the rules. Sure, you can optimize monsters within the rules too, but I have a difficult time seeing how the Terrasque could end up using ToB stances.

[PId6]

To bring it back on topic...

Myou made a nice set of epic fixes that does help a lot with balance. Of course, it's built upon the inherently flawed core classes, so the balance is far from perfect, but it's certainly much better than the ELH. Epic Spellcasting is completely done away with, and in its place the spellcasting classes receive epic level slots. There are numerous new metamagic feats to make the existing spells usable in these epic slots, as well as a more balanced list of epic feats (including some ToB ones). Most of the epic feats at least try to be useful, so no more +1 natural armor disguised as an epic feat.

You can find the epic ruleset here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124588) and the feat list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122765), though I think it's not completely done yet. I'm sure he'd welcome any and all suggestions/critiques.

[ericgrau]

That seems like a fairly level headed approach to the situation, which I'm glad to finally see. But it seems to give more spell slots to wizards without as much of a boost to fighters.

[taltamir]

Drat. Foiled. Tag-team? Pull an all-nighter? Heward's Fortifying Bedroll?

1. Demiplane (level 9 spell) where time flows faster.
2. Heward's fortifying bedroll (sleep one hour, regain spells as if slept 8).

You sleep one hour in your own private demiplane (Even gods cannot breach it without your consent)... while in the prime material plane only minutes pass.

[Foryn Gilnith]

1. Demiplane (level 9 spell) where time flows faster.
1) Time is arguably not one of the factors you can manipulate on your demiplane.
2) "Limited access" is vague and many not be insurmountable.
3) Given the conditions of the original scenario (tarrasque is a "challenge", and "not just a random encounter"), you might not have 9th-level spells.

And since even one of these factors is enough for a potential plan to be struck down, having three makes it rather unstable.

[hamishspence]

yes- its based on the "if it doesn't specifically mention it as disallowed, its not" argument.

the Psionic version of the spell- also 9th level, explicitly does state "no time-trait changing allowed- normal time only"

the slightly more powerful Planeshifter Prestige class version of demiplane creating (Manual of the planes) also states- "normal time only" -

it says you can create "bucolic forests" whereas the standard Genesis spell/power states- "nonliving matter only"

[Paulus]

How to fix Epic? Kill the Tarrasque!

But seriously folks, I agree with the game + idea, let the character restart with all of their hard earned abilities and class features. Just take away all their goodies. If the argument against it is "optimizers broke it", well, guess that's the optimizers fault and not the game eh? All the power would just make it boring anyway eh? Reminds me of the Carl Denim quote from King Kong, "His unfailing ability to Destroy what he Loves most." Sort of thing. So, basically limit optimization and it should be all good yes? Makes all classes worth playing yes?

Could be wrong though, I dislike game breaking myself. Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to be effective, but I don't think sacrificing fun is wroth it. Having a weakness is the point of being in a party after all. But then I've never played epic so I can't comment beyond such. Still. epic feats sure look handy to have at these low levels...

[Milskidasith]

Even if you limit optimizing, the wizard is still going to be better than the fighter... just with core only, it takes a highly optimized fighter to even get close to being as good as a straight Generalist Wizard who just casts non direct damage spells.

[Oslecamo]

yes- its based on the "if it doesn't specifically mention it as disallowed, its not" argument.


Wich, thanks to the gods, it's not RAW, or even RAI, but just pure munchkunery.

Magic missile doesn't say that you cannot use it to get divine ranks, yet I have to see anyone claiming that casting magic missile will make them a greater deity.

The first step in trying to have a enjoyable game is definetely not pretending to be a lawyer and rape the english language itself.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Rules lawyers FTW... (http://photos1.blogger.com/photoInclude/blogger/3146/213/1600/Rules%20Lawyers.jpg)

Also, sorry to bring back the Tarrasque debate, but Greater Bestow Curse (SC 27) is a great way to deal with it. Yes, it's splatbook, so you shouldn't expect to use it against an unoptimized tarrasque. Yes, it needs a touch attack and allows a Will save. But it has no descriptors, and, without dealing damage, reduces the target's Con to 1 (regardless of what it was earlier). Tarrasque now has an average of 96 HP before Toughness feats. Much easier to handle.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, the thing of it is, you are creating a plane, which inherently has a time attribute.

The spell description also specifically says "The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain". To me, that does not look like an inclusive list, especially given that it is followed by restrictions, such as the inability to create life with it. Given that life isn't in the list, it's clear that the list is a guideline.

Also, time is a factor such as temperature and terrain.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If it were, in fact, clear; this debate wouldn't be here.
IMO, it comes down to interpretation. And my view is that the less "broken" interpretation, even if not the most immediately evident one through semantics, is proper. And if we're here to "fix" epic, that usually means nerfing spellcasters - and fast time demiplanes is a decent place to start.

[Tyndmyr]

At least a limit on the attributes possible(starting with the time one) is reasonable. Thats not an epic problem per se, though, since it's merely a ninth level spell.

Fixing epic through changing core seems to be a bit awkward.

[Sophismata]

If you ignore the requirement of wish/miracle, the Tarrasque can be defeated by four level 6 wizards.

Each crafts or buys a 6CL Wand of Acid Arrow. The fight will last just over 4 minutes, with 2 minutes spare on the Fly spell.

[Xenogears]

If you ignore the requirement of wish/miracle, the Tarrasque can be defeated by four level 6 wizards.

Each crafts or buys a 6CL Wand of Acid Arrow. The fight will last just over 4 minutes, with 2 minutes spare on the Fly spell.

Yeah but then you hafta crawl inside it's carapace and then Chrono and his friends discover that the Tarrasque manipulated the evolution of humanity all along.... Oh wait wrong game. Lavos was cooler anyway.

[Oslecamo]

Each crafts or buys a 6CL Wand of Acid Arrow. The fight will last just over 4 minutes, with 2 minutes spare on the Fly spell.

Since the wizards don't have enough ranks to knowledge how high the tarrasque can jump, it goes up and eats one of them, then proceeds to run away untill one the fly ends, then goes back and eats the remaining ones.

[lsfreak]

Since the wizards don't have enough ranks to knowledge how high the tarrasque can jump, it goes up and eats one of them, then proceeds to run away untill one the fly ends, then goes back and eats the remaining ones.

Maybe you have a different definition of 18 Intelligence, but when I think of someone that smart I think of someone smart enough not to guess how high the tarrasque can jump, but instead chooses to fly 400 feet up where the tarrasque can't touch them.

[tyckspoon]

Since the wizards don't have enough ranks to knowledge how high the tarrasque can jump, it goes up and eats one of them, then proceeds to run away untill one the fly ends, then goes back and eats the remaining ones.

Really? Acid Arrow is a Long range spell. Minimum CL wand gives it 520 (640 at the specified CL 6) feet. A Tarrasque, if it's not using the Rush ability, can get a maximum Jump check of..
Rolled 20
+17 Strength
-6 base speed slower than 20...

31. Which is enough for a High Jump of 7 feet, assuming it used a running start. Which would eat up all of its normal move for that round, so it must use a double move (or be making a run or a charge) to actually make that jump. If it's not using a running start, the DCs double, and that best-case 31 won't even make it 4 feet into the air. Combine that with the reach of the Tarrasque's attacks and you're normally safe even if you're only 30 feet over its head.

If it is using Rush, it instead gets +48 to Jump for that round. Gives us a maximum Jump check of 85, which can reach 21 feet with a running High Jump. Safe zone is *still* at a mere 50+ feet over it, with 400+ feet of play where you can still shoot the Tarrasque when/if it tries to run away from you (oh, and since it can't possibly make the Jump DC to get to where you are, and is not trained in Jump, it'll fall prone when it hits the ground.)

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah....if your range is X, you fly at X height...or somewhere close to that, rather than seeing how close you can get to the hungry, hungry monster of doom and destruction.

I suppose a group of level 5's could probably do with magic missile wand abuse too. Really, once you have fly, the rest is just a function of time.

[taltamir]

and terrain, hard to hit it at max range if it is in a cave.

[Tyndmyr]

If he's in the cave, seal the cave. Boom, encounter defeated.

[Oslecamo]

If it is using Rush, it instead gets +48 to Jump for that round. Gives us a maximum Jump check of 85, which can reach 21 feet with a running High Jump. Safe zone is *still* at a mere 50+ feet over it, with 400+ feet of play where you can still shoot the Tarrasque when/if it tries to run away from you (oh, and since it can't possibly make the Jump DC to get to where you are, and is not trained in Jump, it'll fall prone when it hits the ground.)

Yoh, check out the jump rules:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm

The tarrasque, being a colossal bipedal, can reach 128 feets up whitout even needing a check.

And even if he can't do it, the tarrasque can still easily run away from the wizards, making them burn charges and spells all day long until they're worn out. The tarrasque has infinite regeneration. The wizards have limited wands and spells per day.

[tyckspoon]

Yoh, check out the jump rules:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm

The tarrasque, being a colossal bipedal, can reach 128 feets up whitout even needing a check.

And even if he can't do it, the tarrasque can still easily run away from the wizards, making them burn charges and spells all day long until they're worn out. The tarrasque has infinite regeneration. The wizards have limited wands and spells per day.

I'd give it the reach of a quadruped, since it's using a quadruped's shape for pretty much everything else. And it's 'vertical reach' is irrelevant in terms of combat, as its actual reach, being the area it can attack into, is only 20 feet. The vertical reach chart is of use if you want to know if the Tarrasque can get you something from off a shelf. It has nothing to do with combat.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'd give it a biped's reach. It can certainly stand on its legs.

The tarrasque can reach 20 feet from its body. Its body is 70 feet long. With jump, that's 140 feet or so. Not good enough, but still something.

Why are people suggesting putting the tarrasque in a cave or making it run away? If it's running, you've won. If it's in a cave, you've doubly won. The goal in a tarrasque encounter is to keep it from destroying everything for the 1d3 days it's awake. If it's running away, it's not destroying things - mission accomplished. Even if the tarrasque is somehow permanently awake, if it's in a cave nobody wirth half a mind would fight it inside.

[Myrmex]

2. Do you tag your party with fly, or do you just leave them to engage the tarrasque. And if you do tag them with fly a) why did you have that many prepared and b) do you just let them and yourself engage Mr T during the 3 rounds you spend casting it?

If your party hasn't figured out how to fly by level 20, they deserve getting et by the tarrasque.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd give it the reach of a quadruped, since it's using a quadruped's shape for pretty much everything else. And it's 'vertical reach' is irrelevant in terms of combat, as its actual reach, being the area it can attack into, is only 20 feet. The vertical reach chart is of use if you want to know if the Tarrasque can get you something from off a shelf. It has nothing to do with combat.

This, plus the fact that the 520 ft range specified on the wand is sufficient to happily ignore this amount of reach even if the Tarrasque could stand up straight.

As for keeping it dead, there are a number of ways to ensure ongoing damage to keep it dead. Traps. Large vat of acid.

They may not work forever, but they're certainly enough to ensure that the encounter is a win.