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Choco
2009-10-02, 12:27 PM
Was just wondering what are the various ways a sorcerer can apply metamagic to spells without extending the duration to 1 full round without using metamagic rods? Preferably some variant that allows this all the time if such a thing exists.

Also, any way that the various different casters can acquire spells on other caster's spell lists?

Octopus Jack
2009-10-02, 12:31 PM
If Archivists find a divine scroll they can copy it into their prayerbook but thats the only way i know of aquiring spells not on your list

TheThan
2009-10-02, 12:36 PM
There are Sudden meta-magic feats in complete arcane, they’re like normal meta-magic feats only they apply to spontaneous casters (sorcerers, bards a few others). Their not quite as good as they can only be used once per day, but oh well.

HereticNox
2009-10-02, 12:41 PM
Of course you could always trade away your cute familiar for the metamagic specialist variant in the Players handbook 2. Lets you apply any metamagic 3 + your Int modifier a day, even quicken.

Keld Denar
2009-10-02, 12:42 PM
There is an Alt Class Feature in PHBII that gives up your familiar for the ability to do this a small number of times per day based on int. Why int, I have no idea, but yea.

There is also a feat in Complete Mage called Rapid Metamagic, that allows you to do this all day long. Due to skill prereqs, you can't take it until level 9 though...

Also note that the delay is actually good if you are gonna be abusing Arcane Spellsurge (Races of the Dragon, IIRC). Since Arcane Spellsurge reduces the casting time of most spells down to a swift action, applying metamagic is really the only way to take advantage of your standard action. Combine with the tactical feat Residual Metamagic and you'll be bringing some oomph with Arcane Spellsurge!

Sliver
2009-10-02, 12:42 PM
PHB2, variant that gives you just that. No familiar tho.. Metamagic Specialist.

Edit: Darn ninjas and my need to check the info first..

Douglas
2009-10-02, 12:42 PM
There is an alternate class feature in PHBII where you give up your familiar for the ability to use metamagic without increasing casting time 3+int modifier (I think) times per day.

The Rapid Metamagic feat from Complete Mage completely removes the increased casting time for metamagic, with no use limit. Its prerequisites prevent taking it before level 9, though.

The Arcane Preparation feat from Complete Arcane allows you to prepare metamagic spells like a wizard does. This negates the increased casting time at the cost of losing some of your on-the-spot flexibility because the spell slot is fixed as the spell prepared in it and is no longer available for spontaneous casting.

There are a number of PrCs (and a very few feats) that add spells to your class list and/or spells known, but I don't know many of them offhand. Two that I think I remember as doing something like that are Recaster and Wyrm Wizard.

Logalmier
2009-10-02, 12:43 PM
Of course you could always trade away your cute familiar for the metamagic specialist variant in the Players handbook 2. Lets you apply any metamagic 3 + your Int modifier a day, even quicken.

So, so cheesy...:smallsigh:

Keld Denar
2009-10-02, 12:44 PM
So, so cheesy...:smallsigh:

Why? I think its dumb in most cases....

Douglas
2009-10-02, 12:45 PM
So, so cheesy...:smallsigh:
Not really. You still have to pay the spell level cost, you just don't have to give up your move action to do it. Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Wu Jen, Archivists, Ur-Priests, and every other prepared caster in the game can already do that, why not Sorcerers too? It's really not that big a benefit.

Draken
2009-10-02, 12:47 PM
Not really all that cheesy.

Complete Mage has Rapid Metamagic, a feat that allows a spontaneous spellcaster to apply metamagic feats without increasing cast time.

There is also the Residual Magic tactical feat in the same book (in the same page even). That one is considered cheesy. It allows you to apply a metamagic effect for free on a spell, if you used that same spell on the previous round, affected by that same metamagic effect.

HereticNox
2009-10-02, 12:52 PM
Plus it isn't even based of your casting stat...

Trodon
2009-10-02, 12:57 PM
Of course you could always trade away your cute familiar for the metamagic specialist variant in the Players handbook 2. Lets you apply any metamagic 3 + your Int modifier a day, even quicken.

This is the best way I have found to do it.

Logalmier
2009-10-02, 01:02 PM
Not really. You still have to pay the spell level cost, you just don't have to give up your move action to do it. Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Wu Jen, Archivists, Ur-Priests, and every other prepared caster in the game can already do that, why not Sorcerers too? It's really not that big a benefit.

Oh, I thought he meant without having to pay the metamagic cost. Oops.:smallredface:

Violet Octopus
2009-10-02, 01:05 PM
regarding wider spell access, Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine) allows you to learn spells from the Air, Good and Law domains, ant at level 10, any cleric spell. However, since you lose 4 spellcasting levels, you might as well go mystic theurge. Unless you enter through beguiler or warmage.

The Arcane Disciple feat (same book) grants you access to a domain of your choice, but the spellcasting works off Wis.

Eldariel
2009-10-02, 01:05 PM
This is the best way I have found to do it.

Rapid Metamagic is still definitely better. But it's good to get you by until you qualify.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-02, 01:06 PM
There are Sudden meta-magic feats in complete arcane, they’re like normal meta-magic feats only they apply to spontaneous casters (sorcerers, bards a few others). Their not quite as good as they can only be used once per day, but oh well.

They can be applied to both spontaneous and memorized spells, and as metamagic feats they do increase the casting time for spontaneous casters.
The text of all of them is short and clear, and contains no exception, even for warmages who get them as bonus feats.

Sad, but that is how they wrote them.

Stick with Rapid Metamagic.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-02, 01:19 PM
regarding wider spell access, Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine) allows you to learn spells from the Air, Good and Law domains, ant at level 10, any cleric spell. However, since you lose 4 spellcasting levels, you might as well go mystic theurge. Unless you enter through beguiler or warmage.
Well, if all you have is Complete Divine, text-trumps-table says that the Rainbow Servant actually has full progression; the text says you gain spells per day/known as if you'd gained a level of an existing class at each level. This was not changed in any errata. On the other hand, translations of CDiv have apparently fixed this?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-02, 01:35 PM
There's also a feat in Races of the Dragon that's exclusive to Dragonblooded Sorcerers that reduces casting time for metamagiced spells. Also, another feat in there reduces the spell slot adjustment by 1.

valadil
2009-10-02, 01:44 PM
I played a couple PHB2 variant sorcerers. I was very happy with them. The only way I'd play a sorc without that variant is if we started at high enough level that I could start with rapid metamagic AND didn't have a shortage of feats.

I should point out that I don't really like familiars all that much to begin with. They can be cool, but most of the time they're either neglected or exploited with no middle ground.

Choco
2009-10-02, 01:45 PM
Well thanks guys, thats all some good info! Now that I know I will probably go with Rapid Metamagic (character will start at lvl 8, so I THINK I can wait till 9 to be able to get this..) what would you guys say is the best benefit I can get for ditching my familiar?


Well, if all you have is Complete Divine, text-trumps-table says that the Rainbow Servant actually has full progression; the text says you gain spells per day/known as if you'd gained a level of an existing class at each level. This was not changed in any errata. On the other hand, translations of CDiv have apparently fixed this?

I have noticed that, and in plenty of other classes among the other books the text uses the name of the class above the one it applies to, which makes it obvious that they copy/paste it and modify it to save time. Seems they forget to change some things, with name being the most obvious!

So, what would a DM do in this situation? It's obvious that the table is intended to be the correct one, but text trumps tables... do you abide by a "rule" you know is flawed in this case, or do you use your common sense/judgement/DM powers to overrule the rule?

jiriku
2009-10-02, 02:06 PM
What would you guys say is the best benefit I can get for ditching my familiar?


As a sorcerer? Probably a bonus feat.

PirateMonk
2009-10-02, 02:38 PM
Also, any way that the various different casters can acquire spells on other caster's spell lists?

Sorcerers might be able to do it:


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

valadil
2009-10-02, 03:22 PM
Sorcerers might be able to do it:

Mmm, GM fiat. I wouldn't rely on this, but it's certainly worth asking about.

HereticNox
2009-10-02, 05:01 PM
What is the definition of an unusual spell, a spell from off another arcane caster list? I always wanted to make a sorcerer that was like a druid, might have to look at domains.

I also wanted his familiar to be a plant.

good_lookin_gus
2009-10-02, 05:10 PM
As a sorcerer? Probably bonus feats.

fixed:smallbiggrin:

Douglas
2009-10-02, 05:17 PM
What is the definition of an unusual spell, a spell from off another arcane caster list?
I take that to mean a new spell specially researched by the character (requires DM approval of the spell), a homebrewed spell by the DM (requires the DM make the spell and allow the character to acquire information about it), or a spell from a splatbook (by some fairly common standards, only core spells are considered "normal" and "common"). Under no circumstances would I ever interpret it to mean spells not on the sorcerer/wizard class list. If that is really what it means, then the sorcerer/wizard class list is really just the wizard class list, and the sorcerer list consists of every spell in the game.

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-10-02, 07:11 PM
...Also, any way that the various different casters can acquire spells on other caster's spell lists?

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list... These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. [my emphasis]

... or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spell book detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell... [my emphasis]

I've always assumed that this means one can, with DM permission, invent spells - which could duplicate another class's spells. It's not a big jump to imagine the sorcerer using some bard spells, or even clerical spells with an appropriate level change.

(Of course, with DM permission, you can do anything in D&D - but the quote above are big shiny keys to open the discussion with the DM. :smallbiggrin:)

Kylarra
2009-10-02, 07:23 PM
by RAW a wizard is better at it, since they can actually "research" spells.


Independent Research

A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm

DragoonWraith
2009-10-02, 07:28 PM
I have noticed that, and in plenty of other classes among the other books the text uses the name of the class above the one it applies to, which makes it obvious that they copy/paste it and modify it to save time. Seems they forget to change some things, with name being the most obvious!

So, what would a DM do in this situation? It's obvious that the table is intended to be the correct one, but text trumps tables... do you abide by a "rule" you know is flawed in this case, or do you use your common sense/judgement/DM powers to overrule the rule?
You use common sense. At the same time, I suspect with a 6/10 casting progression, Rainbow Servant goes from "amazingly incredible" to "worthless" pretty quick. You could do the same thing better as a Mystic Theurge - never a good source of comparison. So I'd up it, probably to 8/10. This matches the spell loss by an early entry Mystic Theurge (still often considered a poor trade). That seems reasonable. I'd have the lost levels at 1st and 10th, probably, because the entry requirements are way too easy to allow a 1-3 level dip to get the Good domain with no loss.