PDA

View Full Version : Gestalt Full-Casters...with a difference (3.5)



JellyPooga
2009-10-03, 07:00 AM
I often hear people complaining about certain Prestige Classes not being worth it because they lose spellcasting progression in exchange for class features...which pretty much encompasses most of the interesting PrCs from Complete Arcane; Argent Savant, Elemental Savant, Green Star Adept and Mindbender, to mention but a few from that one source. However, by using Gestalt it suddenly becomes possible to utilise these classes without losing those precious spellcasting levels by alternating levels of full caster with levels of these half-caster PrCs.

So, given the option to play Gestalt, which of these PrCs become viable and which stay relegated to the ranks of trash? What builds might you be tempted to play or think might be cool under these circumstances?

NB - Gestalt rules recommend steering clear of dual-caster PrCs (like Mystic Theurge) or PrCs that otherwise combine the features of two base classes (such as Arcane Trickster). Note also that you cannot combine two PrCs at the same level (so you couldn't choose to level up as an Archmage//Horizon Walker, for example).

Melamoto
2009-10-03, 07:30 AM
Keep in mind, that even if you don't lose casting levels, you lose whatever features you would normally have gotten with the class normally on the other side of the gestalt. So if you did it with the Mindbender, then if you had ranger on the other side, then you would lose a Favoured Enemy bonus, along with whatever other features 5 levels in Ranger would have pulled you.

BobVosh
2009-10-03, 07:35 AM
Keep in mind, that even if you don't lose casting levels, you lose whatever features you would normally have gotten with the class normally on the other side of the gestalt. So if you did it with the Mindbender, then if you had ranger on the other side, then you would lose a Favoured Enemy bonus, along with whatever other features 5 levels in Ranger would have pulled you.

What? No:


Class Features

A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid’s prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)

Greenstar adept stays bad. Rage Mage could be fun.

Melamoto
2009-10-03, 07:43 AM
What? No:

You seem to have misinterprated me.

Say you were a Sorc//Ranger, who went to Mindbender later on the Sorc side. This would have you at Ranger 20//Sorc 10/Mindbender 10, with 15th level Sorc casting. If you wanted to do this trick and get 20th level casting by placing Sorc on the other side, then you would have to end up with Ranger 15/Sorc 5//Sorc 10/Mindbender 10. This means that you would miss all Ranger benefits gained above 15th level.

Fortunately, high levels in Base classes usually suck, and rarely have good capstones. But if they do happen to have decent capstones, or features towards the end, you have to ask yourself if the Casting level is worth it.

Grumman
2009-10-03, 07:46 AM
Personally, I love the combination of Wu Jen, Incantatrix and Flux Adept. Doing it in gestalt lets you create more Persistent Body Outside Body clones, and gives you a spare 17 levels to make those clones more powerful. The character I made for Mantid's game was going to be one of these, ending up with around a hundred Spellwarped, regenerating Knight/Warblades in superheavy plate under her command.


What? No:
I assume he is referring to the fact that you need to take Ranger 5 / Wizard 5 // Half Caster PrC 10 instead of just Ranger 10 // Full Caster PrC 10.

JellyPooga
2009-10-03, 07:47 AM
What? No

Er yeah, Melamoto's right...what I'm suggesting is taking levels in your full-caster class on the other side of the Gestalt to the half-caster PrC to offset the caster level loss...which means that if you were playing a Ranger//Wizard and took Mindbender, it would look something like

1 - Ranger//Wizard
2 - Ranger//Wizard
3 - Ranger//Wizard
4 - Ranger//Wizard
5 - Ranger//Wizard
6 - Ranger//Mindbender
7 - Wizard//Mindbender
8 - Ranger//Mindbender
etc.

So you would be losing out on Ranger progression in Favoured Enemy etc.

Is there a particular reason you think Green Star Adept stays bad? I think it might work for a Gish build of some description...DR:10/Adamantine, +6 Strength and Construct Immunities sound good for a Fighter//Wizard (or similar).

The_Pyre
2009-10-03, 08:00 AM
Well, the Con loss would still sting a lot, I presume...

Melamoto
2009-10-03, 08:08 AM
Well, the Con loss would still sting a lot, I presume...

An Artificier in the group makes everything better. Bonus points if you are an Artificier.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-03, 08:22 AM
Well, the Con loss would still sting a lot, I presume...

Then take finish. Problem solved.

ZeroNumerous
2009-10-03, 08:51 AM
DR:10/Adamantine, +6 Strength and Construct Immunities sound good for a Fighter//Wizard (or similar).

For -3 DEX, no CON and half of your class features(Unnatural Metabolism, Natural Attack and Fortification) being useless. Funny thing is: You can get Strength bonuses easily, DR/10 is meaningless and most of the Construct immunities can be picked up with three magic items(Heavy Fortification armor, Ring of Sustenance and Necklace of Adaptation).

If you want to be a construct gish, be a Warforged. You get all the useful stuff of Green Star Adept without being saddled with the incredibly useless levels.

Korivan
2009-10-03, 09:29 AM
Alot of PrC's that are bad arn't bad just because they lose out on caster levels. Things like the Green Star Adept is always bad cause it takes 10,000 gold and over 2 weeks preparing to make you what you could have just done by being a Warforge or casting Iron Body.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-03, 09:32 AM
The prob with dual progression out of gestalt is that, without early entry, you're a spell level behind.

The prob with it IN gestalt is that you're a bit more versatile, but you're still limited to your single actions.

That said, bad caster base combinations: Multi Stat (Wizard/Cleric), non-fullcast (bard/ranger)...

Of those left, ranked in my overall opinion:

Archivist/Psion (Action economy, and a killer list of divine spells to use it with)
Cleric/Ardent (You can give up levels in Ardent, and still come out solid, with Practiced manifester. This is a battleboat.)
Wizard/Psion (Earlier spells, int focus, and free access to one specialty, combined with psionics action economy)
Sorceror/Wilder (TONS of action economy, two tightly focused classes yields a bit more variety, and lets you accomplish a variety of different things)
Sorceror/Favored Soul (Can Arcane Fusion, so it's got action economy, but enters spell levels a level later than other classes)
Wizard/Archivist (quite flexible on the cleric side, but has trouble breaking action economy)

JellyPooga
2009-10-03, 09:49 AM
stuff

You appear to have misinterpreted my intention...I'm not looking for Dual-caster Gestalts, I'm looking for Full-Caster (single class) progression but using some of those Prestige Classes that are normally avoided because they only give half-caster or 3/4 caster level progression (like Mindbender or Elemental Savant).

Essentially, I'm asking what classes (other than the casting class that grants you entry to those PrCs) might complent these, oft maligned, PrCs.

woodenbandman
2009-10-03, 10:04 AM
Master Transmogrifist got really good. Shapechange into a Choker/Hydra hybrid for 22 bite attacks per round, rather than 11? Heck yeah!

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-03, 12:47 PM
You appear to have misinterpreted my intention...I'm not looking for Dual-caster Gestalts, I'm looking for Full-Caster (single class) progression but using some of those Prestige Classes that are normally avoided because they only give half-caster or 3/4 caster level progression (like Mindbender or Elemental Savant).

Essentially, I'm asking what classes (other than the casting class that grants you entry to those PrCs) might complent these, oft maligned, PrCs.
Oh.

OH.

Gotcha.
In that case, my recommendation:

Druid 20
...
Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1 (Pounce Lion ACF) / Master of Many Forms 10 / Warshaper 5

There. A PrC for druid that's oft maligned for not advancing caster progression, and you have it. The raw power of a druid, and the raw power of a druid. Specialized both ways.