Did Lord Shojo let Azure City fall?

[DBJack]

In summary, yes. Lord Shojo was a leading factor in Azure City's loss to the forces of evil.

Azure City lost that big battle for a lot of reasons. The watchtowers failed their purpose, the catapults were destroyed by Julio, the walls were breached by elementals, the high leveled paladins were tied up defending a throne, and there also happened to be some hobgoblins and an epic lich riding a dragon.

But the battle could have been won. Resources that could have turned the tide were lost forever, and that is entirely Lord Shojo's fault for being dead.

No, it's not his fault for dying. Miko absolutely killed him dead, and while he could have maybe parlayed with Roy with the door closed, we can't blame Shojo for not surviving Miko. But then the clerics were called. Diamonds were produced and the spell was cast. And Lord Shojo was not resurrected. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html) Lord Shojo was close to dying a real death anyways. But dying minutes after hearing that his city was going to be attacked, he had a moral responsibility to return to his city and oversee its preparations for war. And he did not.

Hinjo was left in charge, distrusted by the nobles and a good portion of the people. How much time was wasted telling the population that its beloved leader had been killed for good under circumstances they could not know? How much time was spent making the nobles sit and listen to Hinjo? Far too much, when an army of 30,000 hobgoblins is 24 hours away.

Then the nobles sailed away. Shojo probably knew they would. He had to fake senility in order to avoid being assassinated. How would Hinjo get them to obey him in just a day's time, under mysterious circumstances? As these nobles sailed away, they took hundreds, maybe a few thousand, personal guards and servants, and then some civilians loyal to them. Civilians that might have been encouraged to pick up a sword if their noble was staying. These extra men would have certainly helped. And then at least a few of these nobles would probably have high level wizards to advise them. Remember V's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html) contribution to the battle? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) V was almost the only reason the breach was held, at least until the entire army charged it. What if there were 3 Vs on the battlefield? Five? Ten? V was the only decently leveled spellcaster in the battle besides Sangwan that we saw. A bundle more would have turned the tide.

And then these nobles had armies of ninjas at their disposal. What if these ninjas were used to take out the leaders of the hobgoblins? Redcloak wouldn't have ordered the army to storm the breach with a sword in his back. The general could have been taken out too, leaving the hobgoblins leaderless.

These nobles and their valuable resources were lost because Shojo wasn't there to convince them to stay. Some of them at the very least would have stayed if they had a leader they had confidence in, instead of a paladin that gained power for reasons he couldn't explain. The troops themselves point this out. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html)

Of course, there is one event that would have probably occurred with or without Shojo's presence. Xykon would have still killed Roy, and he would have probably still made it to the throne room. There, the same fight would occur. And then Lord Shojo would probably be in some kind of safe room with paladins defending him. In the battle of the throne room, every last paladin counted. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) With one or two less, Redcloak would have helped Xykon take on Soon, and they might not have been defeated by him. However, if there were enough noble-sponsored wizards on the field, Xykon might have been held up by some and burned some of his more powerful spells, making him more likely to be defeated before Redcloak arrives, and heck, Redcloak might not even had made it to the room if he was stopped by the ninja, meaning he wouldn't have been there to turn the ghost martyrs and help Xykon.

Lord Shojo's cowardice was a leading factor in the fall of Azure City. Because he was scared of Hinjo's reaction, and because he was, according to Belkar, having a good time in the afterlife, his beloved city fell. Lord Shojo's refusal to return lost time to prepare, valuable resources and men the nobles could have provided, and drained troop moral. The troops were fighting for a paladin they didn't entirely trust, especially when they couldn't know how he gained power over them. Lord Shojo's final words (besides that snark to Miko) were "Everything I did, I did for my people." No, not everyone. One thing he did helped to cause the deaths of ten thousand soldiers and helped to cause the survivors to sail on a fleet in exile for almost a year. Lord Shojo hid from his duties as ruler, and possibly because of it, his city was destroyed.

[Mystic Muse]

I think you're being a little overly criitcal of lord Shojo. Also, one thing you're forgetting. He would have been arrested. He would not have been able to do anything since he would have been in jail and Hinjo would now be the emperor. They still wouldn't have trusted Hinjo Even if Shojo gave Hinjo his own reccomendation.

You also can't really blame him for not wanting to come back. He was goign to die in a few years easy and He probably wouldn't have done much good in that time. His nephew would have exposed him and then he'd be rotting in a jail cell. (Probably a nice one since he is Hinjo's uncle and he did have good intentions but still.)

[Katana_Geldar]

Shojo hardly had any time to prepare for the attack, Miko came in and told him then killed him less than a minute later. You cannot blame him for causing something he did not know about.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Shojo hardly had any time to prepare for the attack, Miko came in and told him then killed him less than a minute later. You cannot blame him for causing something he did not know about.

The attack wasn't something Shojo didn't know about. I'd have to partly agree with the OP. Yes, Shojo may have been arrested, but there was also the possibility that Hinjo would decide to wait until the attack was over.

No matter how small that chance would be, it would have been better to let himself be ressed and give it a shot instead of staying dead because he just didn't trust Hinjo to listen to him.

[Turkish Delight]

Also, one thing you're forgetting. He would have been arrested. He would not have been able to do anything since he would have been in jail and Hinjo would now be the emperor.

Hinjo arresting Shojo would have been a crucial test for his Paladinhood. On the one hand, his uncle clearly broke the law and should probably go to jail according to a standard 'Lawful' outlook. On the other hand, to do so when there are 30,000 Hobgoblins led by an epic Lich Sorcerer about to storm the city and Shojo is the glue keeping it all together is downright irresponsible.

Would he see the city sacked for the sake of the letter of the law, or would he do the sane, responsible thing and only bring charges when the battle is over? Shojo should have accepted his resurrection, and Hinjo should have set the matter of his past actions aside until the victory had been won.

[Tijne]

The Battle for Azure City was not close at all. -- Xykon won by a landslide.
Here's the proof, in terms of troops. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html)

Having 'one more paladin' guarding the gate would not have changed anything either. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html) Xykon epically out classed all the living paladins very easily.

Even if the Azurites had another thousand ninjas and whatever-else (Assuming he could convince the aristrocrats, which I doubt "Mr. Scruffy needs your ninjas!" would work...); Xykon still would have ended up victorious. He had too many too strong troops in terms of his army, and he had all the highest level creatures on his side of the playing field (Himself, Redcloak, MitD). They weren't about to lose.



The only real thing Shojo could do that would have impacted the plot would have been him getting captured by Xykon, similarly to how O'Chul was captured. The only difference being, Shojo isn't comparable to Chuck Noris; and Shojo wasn't bound by the oath so he actually may have information on the other gates..

[spargel]

Getting raised wouldn't have changed anything. If he was faking senility to avoid being assassinated, the nobles wouldn't listen to him anyways.

[CrazySopher]

Hinjo arresting Shojo would have been a crucial test for his Paladinhood. On the one hand, his uncle clearly broke the law and should probably go to jail according to a standard 'Lawful' outlook. On the other hand, to do so when there are 30,000 Hobgoblins led by an epic Lich Sorcerer about to storm the city and Shojo is the glue keeping it all together is downright irresponsible.

Would he see the city sacked for the sake of the letter of the law, or would he do the sane, responsible thing and only bring charges when the battle is over? Shojo should have accepted his resurrection, and Hinjo should have set the matter of his past actions aside until the victory had been won.

At the same time though, I'm curious as to what Shojo could have possibly done anyways, had he been brought back. Would it have been a bit of a moral boost for the soldiers? Yeah, perhaps it coulda been. But the fact of the matter is that the only reason he had any control over the populace was by faking senility. The bickering nobles thought they had true power and control anyways, and so did their loyal subjects, or at least those amongst them who were privy to said information. What we have, then, are a few possibilities, assuming that Shojo is resurrected.

1.) Shojo breaks character. He reveals himself as the brilliant, manipulative, wise, just ruler who might not exactly follow Lawful Good principles, but follows Good ones nonetheless. What sort of role does he play? He cannot possibly command the battle, having no martial class to speak of, or even levels in anything other than commoner classes. His control over the nobles slips completely as they realize he's been playing them the fool, and might even go so far as to temporarily band together for the sake of taking out their greatest obstacle. They certainly won't have any hand in participating in the plans of a liar and a cheat. The nobles would LOVE to spread this information throughout the populace, sowing mistrust in the overall government and winning over soldiers, commoners.. hell, maybe even some of the paladins. In either case, before we get to all that, Hinjo still sees this as a terrible enough offense to jail him, giving the Nobles all the ammunition they need anyways and even possibly casting Hinjo as a usurper to the throne, a tactic they'd already utilized, to a much greater effect.

Either way, I don't see Shojo having any authority. His lifespan would be increased by a few years, if he's not quickly and efficiently killed by any of their ninjas anyways.

2.) Shojo returns and once more plays senile. He still lacks any authority or commanding presence over the people. The nobles are still unwilling to submit to the will of a senile fool, one they have tolerated only so far as they have needed to. He still cannot command the Guard, having to play senile in order to even remain breathing. More soldiers are actually cut off from the main forces to actually help protect Shojo, weakening forces (perhaps by a less-than-marginal amount, but their best and brightest would be following him anyways.) Hinjo, the real battle commander, wouldn't listen to him anyway, especially if he's threatened to throw Shojo in jail regardless of whether or not Shojo tries to convince him to play senile otherwise.

Shojo is dead, yes... and this provides the people with Hinjo, a leader who actually has many qualities that Shojo lacks. Hinjo is a military strategist and skilled warrior. He can better martial the defenses of the City, and afterwards is better able to stand the seafaring life until they can find something to do. He can assist the Order and work with them without needing to throw on the senility ploy again. The Sapphire Guard and the general populace are absolutely under his rule and follow his whim, disregarding Kubota and the other nobles along with their devoted lackeys. Once the nobles are reigned in, or even if they aren't, the Azurites have a just, honest, brilliant, and compassionate leader to follow who knows how to defend them from any sort of attack an enemy would martial, one who can keep the people together. If Shojo was still around at that point, the Nobles would have much more support, and any one of them would have much greater incentive of grabbing the throne while the going was good, starting a multi-sided civil war that would end the Azurites, or at least diminish them to the point of being unable to assist the Order or continue as a civilization.

[Turkish Delight]

At the same time though, I'm curious as to what Shojo could have possibly done anyways, had he been brought back. Would it have been a bit of a moral boost for the soldiers? Yeah, perhaps it coulda been.

No 'could've been' about it. He was the monarch of Azure City for 40 years. After that long a time, you become more than just a ruler, you become almost an institution. Witness Queen Victoria in Britain during the late 19th century.

Now, with a massive army just outside their gates, not only do they have to announce that Shojo is dead, but they have to announce that they can't reveal the circumstances behind his death. The result is predictable: look at how many Azurites who seem to immediately assume Hinjo was responsible and they are now being led by a usurper. Such news hits morale and it hits hard at the absolute worst possible moment.


1.) Shojo breaks character. He reveals himself as the brilliant, manipulative, wise, just ruler who might not exactly follow Lawful Good principles, but follows Good ones nonetheless. What sort of role does he play?

Symbolic. He would always be just a symbol, given his NPC class and his obvious emphasis on scheming over military strategy. Regardless of Shojo's life or death, Hinjo would always necessarily be in charge of the defense of the city, and I'm sure Shojo himself would be perfectly happy to be the one to announce this, giving him the legitimacy of the perceived rightful ruler's blessing rather than the perceived implication that Hinjo himself was responsible for Shojo's death. If he were to announce his 'act', though, it would probably be the wrong choice; as you say, he'd likely lose most of the nobles when they figure out how they'd been duped.

This leads to him continuing his senile charade, which puts the noble class in a bit more of a bind. In the case of Shojo's death, they have a perfect 'out' for not participating in the battle; they can claim they don't trust Hinjo under the shady circumstances of Shojo's death and use that as an excuse to not participate. What is the excuse with Shojo in power? They can withdraw their troops, but it will appear more blatantly than ever like the craven and self-serving act it is. Unlike Hinjo, Shojo seems manipulative and shrewd enough that even through his senile act he would be able to play this card against them masterfully.

Perhaps the Kubota-style nobles, the absolutely and completely selfish who have no interest in anything save seizing power, would still not participate. But we mustn't assume that all the nobles are of a similar mindset, and Shojo living means there is no longer any trace of controversy over the rulership of the city. Very likely, then, if not all the nobles, certainly more of them would have actively participated in the city's defense.

Would all of this have turned the tide and won the battle for Azure City, setting aside the plot-induced inevitablity of it's defeat? Probably not. It would have certainly made for tougher resistance on Azure City's part, however, and that should have been obvious even at the time.

Shojo failed in his duty to the city when he didn't come back. Hinjo would have failed in his duty to the city if he had carried on with his orders to arrest Shojo if Shojo had come back.

[factotum]

Would he see the city sacked for the sake of the letter of the law, or would he do the sane, responsible thing and only bring charges when the battle is over?

On the evidence we've seen, Hinjo would quite clearly have arrested his uncle and be damned to the consequences. Just look at his reaction in strip #406, which I point out was AFTER he knew there was a massive hobgoblin army on the way--he was still determined to arrest his uncle and let the magistrate sort it out.

Further evidence: he didn't remove the Mark of Justice from Belkar prior to the battle, despite the fact that effectively neutered one of his more powerful allies. It took several people to persuade him that yes, now was the time to leave the city and look after his people rather than dying in a pointless onslaught against twenty thousand hobgoblins. Even after he'd been persuaded of that, he still tried to solo attack Redcloak, despite the fact that the goblin was standing on a dock surrounded by troops and undead.

Fact is, Hinjo was not a good leader at the time of the Battle of Azure City, and I don't think the approaching hobgoblin army would have changed his adherence to the law one iota.

[Turkish Delight]

Fact is, Hinjo was not a good leader at the time of the Battle of Azure City, and I don't think the approaching hobgoblin army would have changed his adherence to the law one iota.

If we see further character development of Hinjo, I'd wager it will be in this vein: Hinjo increasingly realizing that his uncle was right and maybe, just maybe, being an effective ruler of his people means having to occasionally play dirty, lie and bend the rules.

One cannot rule guiltlessly. Politics is a dirty business and not really cut out for 100% Pure-all-the-time Paladins.

[Thanatosia]

I can't see any plausable way for Shojo to have had any significant sway in the outcome of the battle. Sapphire City and the OOTS were simply vastly outmatched.

[Allan Surgite]

Anything that Shojo could have done for Azure City would have been worth nothing.

Miko still would have stopped Soon defeating Xykon, Xykon could probably take out most of the Azure City army by himself after the gate has been destroyed, thus rendering any advantage given by having a trusted monarch on the throne is meaningless. And if you give the argument that Xykon didn't have that many high level spells, he can always rest a while and recover them. 30,000 hobgoblins won't be easily killed :)

[King of Nowhere]

I don't think Shojo considered all this when he got the chance of being rezzed. It was a normal day, then suddenly happened all that happened... then he find himself in the upper planes being judged by a deva (I don't think he was already in the afterlife, judgment of a whole life takes time). Then somebody offered to resurrect him.
He probably just tought "nahh, Hinjo would put me in jail, and I'm going to die of old age soon anyway. Not worth it" and failed to consider the consequences.
Anyway, given that Hinjo didin't remove the mark of justice from Belkar, I doubt he would have kept Shojo in charge of the battle.
He would have had Shojo arrested, and then he would have to explain the nobles and population why the ruler was imprisoned on secret charges (remember, the existance of the sapphire guard, much less the gate, is a secret). Not a big improvement.

[theinsulabot]

azure city was never winnable from the start. had azure city had every man on the walls, twice as strong walls, and every resource it could possible hope to have in a war other then an epic level group of mercenaries, it still would of lost. xykon would of just ended it with more hob goblin zombies and less hob goblins. if the fragmented order could kill several hundred members of xykon's army, as hinjo stated, then xykon and RC could kill several THOUSAND members of the resistance. as soon as xykon decided to enter the field of battle himself, azure city was lost. ironically, with hinjo in charge, more azurites survived because the noble left with them early and more warriors were ready to desert, escaping with their lives, if not their pride

[DBJack]

Having 'one more paladin' guarding the gate would not have changed anything either. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html) Xykon epically out classed all the living paladins very easily.


I was talking about the effects of the ghost paladins, not the living ones. The last two or three paladins stopped Redcloak from teaming with Xykon to take out Soon.

But that wasn't the point of that paragraph. My point was that with even just a little bit of resistance, Redcloack would not have made it to the throne room in time to save Xykon. Redcloak got there just in time to stop him from being destroyed, and Xykon would not have had defeated the ghost martyrs without Redcloak there to turn them.

Now, Hinjo was going to arrest Shojo, probably. I did remember that wrong, I thought Hinjo said they would sort it out after the battle. But he did say that it would be up to the magistrate. Any magistrate would see the need for a ruler during the conflict over some laws being upheld.

Shojo didn't have much time to think this over, but he had at least ten minutes to think about it and say, "forget my people, I'm going to the afterlife." He might have even had twenty minutes if the second panel of 410 is a second casting of Resurrection, not just the cleric repeating one sentence.

Next, I come to the issue of the hobgoblins. Yes, there were a lot. But how have hobgoblins been characterized in the comic? Certainly stronly disciplined, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) maybe too much, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) even. They seem to follow a very strict ranking system. If Redcloak was removed from the battle (either by being killed/routed by ninjas) and the general was removed from the picture, who would be next in line? Eventually these leaders could be thinned to someone willing to sound the retreat, or pull back for the night. If ninjas could hide behind Hinjo for four hours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) then they could sneak accross a battlefield and take out a hobgoblin general.

And like Turkish Delight said, the nobles wouldn't retreat. They're trying to become rulers of these people. They're smart enough to know that a blatant act of cowardice would seriously dampen their chances. I don't think even Kubota would retreat. He was pretty proud of being 'beloved by the people.'

And again, I'd like to point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) out V's contribution (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) to the battle. Notice the bodies? One wizard and some low level fighters did that. In the second link you can see Belkar's pile of corpses, which is dwarfed by those at the breach, a good distance away. If there were ten wizards manning that breach, and they had access to some decent spells, the and then a bunch of area affect spells would seriously cramp the Hobgoblin assualt, and assuming each one hits, say ten, the wizards would have almost a thousand hobgoblins taken out by the time the goblins start getting in melee range. A different hobgoblin running the army would see the losses incurred, and he might just pull the army back to stop such casualties. As the Azurite General said, "They wouldn't continure an attack that was meeting with such failure." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html)

[hamishspence]

On the evidence we've seen, Hinjo would quite clearly have arrested his uncle and be damned to the consequences. Just look at his reaction in strip #406, which I point out was AFTER he knew there was a massive hobgoblin army on the way--he was still determined to arrest his uncle and let the magistrate sort it out.

"it will be up to the magistrates to decide what happens next" can be interpreted as:

"it will be up to the magistrates to decide what crimes Shojo may have committed, and if there is enough evidence of them to press charges, and suspend Shojo's authority"

Even after Miko alleges that Shojo committed treason, Hinjos words are not "I will place Shojo under arrest" but:

"Look, we have the magistrates place Shojo under arrest"

Once Roy convinced Hinjo that Shojo did not, in fact, commit treason, and that Shojo had not done real harm (Which Hinjo's decision not to press any charges against Roy, but recruit him as his bodyguard, suggests) then it is possible that Hinjo might have decided to suspend the charges.

Not all that likely, but possible.

Belkar does think the Sapphire Guard would have placed Shojo under arrest the moment Hinjo resurrected him if he had succeeded, though.

[Mugen Nightgale]

"Is Shojo's death morally justified?"

Two words for you. "Chaotic Good"

[Ozymandias9]

No, it's not his fault for dying. Miko absolutely killed him dead, and while he could have maybe parlayed with Roy with the door closed, we can't blame Shojo for not surviving Miko. But then the clerics were called. Diamonds were produced and the spell was cast. And Lord Shojo was not resurrected. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html) Lord Shojo was close to dying a real death anyways. But dying minutes after hearing that his city was going to be attacked, he had a moral responsibility to return to his city and oversee its preparations for war. And he did not.

You seem to presume that duty and obligation continue after death. The examples we have of that being the case in OotS's alignment/morality system are very specific, very limited, and driven by magical oaths taken by lawful characters.

[hamishspence]

And even then, those characters often have a view that some obligations end:

Eugene: "Hey- it said "till death do us part.""

[DBJack]

You seem to presume that duty and obligation continue after death. The examples we have of that being the case in OotS's alignment/morality system are very specific, very limited, and driven by magical oaths taken by lawful characters.

Those that didn't follow their duties were small-timers, people living their lives as they saw fit. This is the leader of a city of hundreds of thousands of people. He was running this city for much of his life, 47 years to be exact. This is a world where death is something you can be done with in the morning. If his people had known that he was going to wimp out on them when he had the chance to come back and help them, he would have been dethroned quickly. They want him running them to protect them at all times, not when he sees fit. Alive, or dead.


"Is Shojo's death morally justified?"

Two words for you. "Chaotic Good"

Two words for you. "Chaotic Good"

[veti]

DBJack makes a good case. A fake-senile Shojo could quite possibly have kept a good many of the nobles in the city, and their forces might have made the crucial difference in the battle. It was a close-run thing, and we specifically saw several points where a couple of ninjas (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), or just slightly better morale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html), could have made a difference. And we know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) Shojo's death played a major part in setting that morale so low.

But it's also possible that his coming back wouldn't have had that effect. Hinjo might have arrested him then and there, with very much the same net effect as if he were just killed. His trial, if the city survived long enough, might have opened all sorts of cans-of-worms that would make the city tear itself apart anyway. Or the news that Shojo had been murdered in the first place by one of his own trusted paladins, even if he had come back, might have been enough to destroy what authority he had over the nobles. We really can't know - and if it comes to guessing, Shojo is better placed to make that judgment call than any of us.

And everything Belkar says of Shojo is true. He had nothing to look forward to, coming back. My guess is, ambling peacefully into Arborea, he realises he's clung on to power far too long and it's past time to hand over to Hinjo anyway. He can't really foresee all the consequences of his death, any more than we can accurately know what would have happened if he had been raised. To that, add very considerable disincentives in the form of arrest and imprisonment facing him on his return. I find it hard to blame him.

[hamishspence]

Ysgard is another possible candidate, if you see Shojo as much more Chaotic, than he is Good.

Home of trickster deity Olidammara (CN with mild Good tendencies), other deities might reside there using the OoTS pantheons.

Thor, Odin, etc would fit quite well, since Ysgard is basically close to being a D&D version of Asgard.

And I think way back when every pantheon existed on the Great Wheel (Olympus was on Arborea) Asgard was where Ysgard is now.

The Elven deities might be expected to reside in Arborea in OoTS, as they do in the standard D&D cosmologies.

[spargel]

Those that didn't follow their duties were small-timers, people living their lives as they saw fit. This is the leader of a city of hundreds of thousands of people. He was running this city for much of his life, 47 years to be exact. This is a world where death is something you can be done with in the morning. If his people had known that he was going to wimp out on them when he had the chance to come back and help them, he would have been dethroned quickly. They want him running them to protect them at all times, not when he sees fit. Alive, or dead.


So, are you ever going to tell us exactly how Shojo would be able to convince the nobles to help him and change the tide of the battle?

[ericgrau]

You can't lead from jail.

[Lvl45DM!]

Nobles wouldve always retreated...cos they are nobles thats what they do, they dont stand and fight when someone else can do it fore them, and they dont get their loyal samurai or their loyal ninjas to fight when theirs an army coming.
If Shojo had been in charge its even possible that the nobles wouldve tried reasoning with Xykon...how would THAT turn out?
And its more likely that warrior troops would be bolstered morally by their leader running around smiting evil whilst riding his massive wolf that has silver teeth, than the crazy old guy in the castle

[DukeGod]

aniway,Xykon and Redcloak were pretty much dead.If Miko had not destroyed the gate Soon's Ghost would have killed both and said someone how to destroy the philactery

[David Argall]

You can't lead from jail.

Essentially the point. Everything we know says that Shojo would have gone straight to jail after being raised. And from jail he would have caused loads of trouble merely by existing. As far as the political situation was concerned, Miko may have done the city a favor by dicing Shojo and avoiding any fight over who should be ruling.

Shojo's big mistake was in not realizing that Azure City was a possible target. By the time he was being raised, everything was already way messed up.

[Turkish Delight]

For the record, Shojo was not the determining factor in victory or defeat. It all came down to the battle in the throne room. If Soon had finished off Xykon and Redcloak, Azure city wins, even with the massive numerical advantage of the Hobgoblins; without effective, high-level leadership, even if the city had fallen that day, retaking it wouldn't have been all that difficulty, and under such circumstances the Hobgoblins might have even retreated on their own.

If Xykon and Redcloak are in any shape to effect the battle, the battle is lost, Shojo or no. Epic level sorcerers can screw a battle royally for whichever side the sorcerer happens to be fighting against and Shojo was in no position to do anything to solve that particular problem.

So no, Shojo didn't lose the battle for Azure City by not coming back. Azure City would have been stronger with his continued presence, with morale more secure and with more nobles likely to participate, but Shojo or no Azure City was pretty royally screwed, with a victory by Soon it's only real hope. As such, Miko ultimately lost the battle for Azure City more than anyone.

[hamishspence]

Remember that Hinjo's "look, we have the magistrates place him under arrest" was in response to Miko's accusation of treason.

If Hinjo chooses to interpret the gods' rather spectacular reaction as proof that the accusation was incorrect,

(there are people who suggest that the only reason Miko Fell for killing Shojo was that she was incorrect in her accusation)

then Shojo might not have gone to jail immediately after being ressurrected.

All that said, I would be surprised if ressurecting him had made things any better.

[Teddy]

Why would they resurrect Shojo if the only thing they would do with him is throwing him in jail at the spot. It could be because he's still the ruler until proven guilty, but it still seems like a waste of resources to resurrect him for the sole purpose to have him go through a trial.

But on the other hand, I'm pretty sure Shojo believed that that was exactly the reasons why to resurrect him, so I'm not really blaming him for refusing.

[David Argall]

Why resurrect Shojo?

"He's my uncle." Hinjo doesn't need more reason.

[hamishspence]

"He was murdered- and this is a Wrong that needs to be Righted" is a reason.

[spargel]

Well, there's probably still many questions Hinjo would like to ask him.

[Sewblon]

Shojo wasn't just murdered, he was murdered by his highest ranking paladin. Like Belkar said he was going to die in a few years anyway and they wear going to put him in jail. Maybe Shojo just figured that Hinjo would be equally effective at rallying the city now that members of his own government new that he was a criminal and one of them saw fit to summarily execute him.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Maybe Shojo just figured that Hinjo would be equally effective at rallying the city now that members of his own government knew that he was a criminal and one of them saw fit to summarily execute him.

That is a good point. Shojo lived most of his life in paranoia that led him to involve Miko in a convoluted scheme when a simple job offer would have worked. He probably saw death as a sweet relief from the constant fear that came with a life as the rule of a city filled with power struggles.

He did, underneath all the neuroses, want the best for his city however, so he probably saw Hinjo's competence as a justification and is able to look back and regret not being ressed and at least TRYING to get Hinjo to put the house arrest off for the time being and rally the nobles.

[warrl]

"Is Shojo's death morally justified?"

Two words for you. "Chaotic Good"

By the way, in 4E there's no such thing. All Lawful are Lawful Good, and all Chaotic are Chaotic Evil.

(It's also impossible to be dedicated to the balance - the True Neutral of the 1st-edition Druid doesn't exist. There is "Unaligned", which is basically "don't care". So effectively half of all alignments are gone. But they didn't change the alignment system, they just augmented its inherent weaknesses and limitations with a few gaping holes.)

[hamishspence]

You can be dedicated to "the wild" though (Melora).

And druids still exist.

And 4E Good is almost indistinguishable from 3.5 CG.

Unaligned means you can be anything you want, as long as you are not behaving in a seriously evil (or good) fashion.

And "dedicated to the balance" as interpreted in 2nd ed True Neutral, gave TN characters "Chronic Backstabbing Disorder."

Most people who speak of it seem very pleased it's gone.

That said, this isn't a 4E thread, but a OoTS (3.5) thread.

You can always put up a thead on "why removing TN was a bad thing" over on the roleplayeing games part of the board, if you like.

[Kish]

Further evidence: he didn't remove the Mark of Justice from Belkar prior to the battle, despite the fact that effectively neutered one of his more powerful allies.
If Hinjo had removed the Mark of Justice from Belkar prior to the battle, Belkar would have had no reason to stop the assassin from killing Hinjo and Hinjo would be dead now. If you want to criticize Hinjo's actions toward the prisoners, criticize him letting any of them out. (Yes, including Belkar.)

[Bago!!!]

In summary, yes. Lord Shojo was a leading factor in Azure City's loss to the forces of evil.Interesting....


Azure City lost that big battle for a lot of reasons. The watchtowers failed their purpose, the catapults were destroyed by Julio, the walls were breached by elementals, the high leveled paladins were tied up defending a throne, and there also happened to be some hobgoblins and an epic lich riding a dragon. True, true, also true...


But the battle could have been won. Resources that could have turned the tide were lost forever, and that is entirely Lord Shojo's fault for being dead.Any battle could be won if applied properly. The only difference are the chances of such success. As it stands, they weren't particularly too grand (though it almost worked! Redcloak and Xykon almost died!)


No, it's not his fault for dying. Miko absolutely killed him dead, and while he could have maybe parlayed with Roy with the door closed, we can't blame Shojo for not surviving Miko. But then the clerics were called. Diamonds were produced and the spell was cast. And Lord Shojo was not resurrected. Lord Shojo was close to dying a real death anyways. But dying minutes after hearing that his city was going to be attacked, he had a moral responsibility to return to his city and oversee its preparations for war. And he did not.I disagree over here. Its true that he was not resurrected. Its true that he did answer the call. But that doesn't mean he had a moral responsibility. Would it have been nice? Maybe, but I doubt that there was much that he could have done.


Hinjo was left in charge, distrusted by the nobles and a good portion of the people. How much time was wasted telling the population that its beloved leader had been killed for good under circumstances they could not know? How much time was spent making the nobles sit and listen to Hinjo? Far too much, when an army of 30,000 hobgoblins is 24 hours away.
As if Shojo could have retaken the throne or assumed any sort of command. The most he could have supplied was war advice or political advice. The former I doubt he has much experiance (but he could, he is pretty old so may have lived through some wars) and the later he could have given, even from beyond the grave if asked. (Speak with the Dead! FTW?)


Then the nobles sailed away. Shojo probably knew they would. He had to fake senility in order to avoid being assassinated. How would Hinjo get them to obey him in just a day's time, under mysterious circumstances? As these nobles sailed away, they took hundreds, maybe a few thousand, personal guards and servants, and then some civilians loyal to them. Civilians that might have been encouraged to pick up a sword if their noble was staying. These extra men would have certainly helped.
Kobuto was probably the most influential noble and probably controlled most of the strings with them. He would of tried to take the throne one way or the other. If Shojo was jailed, one way or the other, he was not going to get the throne back. Kobuto was gonna try to take the throne and either kill Shojo (if he didn't stop pretending to be senile) or get rid of Hinjo under the pretenses. And you know what? Most of the nobles would have supported this. Rather to have Kubota to take the throne than a paladin. The former can be bargained with. The later, not so much.
My point is, even if Shojo was alive, there was nothing that could have changed with the nobles.


And then at least a few of these nobles would probably have high level wizards to advise them. Remember V's contribution to the battle? V was almost the only reason the breach was held, at least until the entire army charged it. What if there were 3 Vs on the battlefield? Five? Ten? V was the only decently leveled spellcaster in the battle besides Sangwan that we saw. A bundle more would have turned the tide.If the nobles were given enough incentives to do so (which they probably wouldn't have) to risk their d4 hit die mages. Doing so seems unlikely. Even the chance of it happening, I admit, would have needed Shojo's advice, which he could have gained if he truly desired it.
The point here is, the mages will only make a difference (as well the soldiers in general) if the nobles had something to gain from it. And keeping the status quo isn't a real incentive to do things. THey would be looking for favors or wealth or power or elevation or what not.


And then these nobles had armies of ninjas at their disposal. What if these ninjas were used to take out the leaders of the hobgoblins? Redcloak wouldn't have ordered the army to storm the breach with a sword in his back. The general could have been taken out too, leaving the hobgoblins leaderless.If the nobles were given enough incentive you to do this you mean.


These nobles and their valuable resources were lost because Shojo wasn't there to convince them to stay. Some of them at the very least would have stayed if they had a leader they had confidence in, instead of a paladin that gained power for reasons he couldn't explain. The troops themselves point this out.Most of them would have stayed if they felt they could have turned this to an advantage for them.


Of course, there is one event that would have probably occurred with or without Shojo's presence. Xykon would have still killed Roy, and he would have probably still made it to the throne room. There, the same fight would occur. And then Lord Shojo would probably be in some kind of safe room with paladins defending him.I doubt that would have happened but who knows. Thats kinda hard to prove or disprove.


In the battle of the throne room, every last paladin counted. With one or two less, Redcloak would have helped Xykon take on Soon, and they might not have been defeated by him. However, if there were enough noble-sponsored wizards on the field, Xykon might have been held up by some and burned some of his more powerful spells, making him more likely to be defeated before Redcloak arrives, and heck, Redcloak might not even had made it to the room if he was stopped by the ninja, meaning he wouldn't have been there to turn the ghost martyrs and help Xykon.Mages in that would have gone rather quickly. Why? Xykon is immune to fire damage, cold damage, and lightning damage. And most of those mages would have died rather quickly to fire balls or lightning bolts of death coming from an epic level sorcerer, or insane paladins rampaging around like crazy.
And Xykon was hardly doing any damage to the ghosts. And since Xykon is a sorcerer, its not like he's gonna run out of spells rather quickly.
Point is, the defense of the throne room would have probably gone the same way.


Lord Shojo's cowardice was a leading factor in the fall of Azure City. Because he was scared of Hinjo's reaction, and because he was, according to Belkar, having a good time in the afterlife, his beloved city fell. Lord Shojo's refusal to return lost time to prepare, valuable resources and men the nobles could have provided, and drained troop moral. Thats assuming that the nobles would have helped out.


The troops were fighting for a paladin they didn't entirely trust, especially when they couldn't know how he gained power over them. Lord Shojo's final words (besides that snark to Miko) were "Everything I did, I did for my people." No, not everyone.Shojo may have been stretching the last bit but I am sure that every action he had was heavily weighed by his consience.


One thing he did helped to cause the deaths of ten thousand soldiers and helped to cause the survivors to sail on a fleet in exile for almost a year. Lord Shojo hid from his duties as ruler, and possibly because of it, his city was destroyed. The moment that his senality was revealed, he was no longer the ruler. He was a old man sitting on the throne caught in his web of lies. He didn't hide. He just couldn't have helped.


In short, Shojo couldn't have been of any help.

[factotum]

If Hinjo had removed the Mark of Justice from Belkar prior to the battle, Belkar would have had no reason to stop the assassin from killing Hinjo and Hinjo would be dead now.

So you're basically telling me that Hinjo could see into the future and knew Belkar would betray him, so that's why he kept the Mark on? Then he was even more of an idiot for letting him out, wasn't he?

Simple fact is, Hinjo hit on the idea of letting the high level prisoners fight for the city, so he obviously wanted them to be effective otherwise there's no point in releasing them at all--it is thus still a boneheaded move to NOT remove the Mark from Belkar immediately, regardless of what happened subsequently.

[Kish]

So you're basically telling me that Hinjo could see into the future and knew Belkar would betray him, so that's why he kept the Mark on?

No. On the other hand, Belkar wasn't "neutered" as soon as he left the city. And no one onstage ever suggested to him that he shouldn't have left the city.

Then he was even more of an idiot for letting him out, wasn't he?

Yes. :smalltongue:


Simple fact is, Hinjo hit on the idea of letting the high level prisoners fight for the city, so he obviously wanted them to be effective otherwise there's no point in releasing them at all--it is thus still a boneheaded move to NOT remove the Mark from Belkar immediately, regardless of what happened subsequently.
Meh. If Hinjo had actually directed Belkar to the front lines (outside the city, where the Mark didn't restrain him at all), I'd disagree with your conclusion completely. As it is, keeping a Marked Belkar inside the city was certainly...bizarre. How Hinjo seems to view Belkar makes very little sense to me on any level.

[hamishspence]

one of the advantages of combining Marked Belkar with him being inside the city- he can attack undead (zombies, ghouls, etc) without problems, but he can't attack the soldiers or Hinjo.

On the other hand- he can still "Not Help" at critical moments- luckily, he chose not to do that when Hinjo was in danger.

[tomandtish]

Actually, don't forget that it is possible that Shojo wanted to return and couldn't. The guidelines for Raise Dead (carried over to Resurrection) indicate that the soul must be free AND want to return. Many DMs (myself included) have always interpreted the first part to also mean that whatever power has jurisdiction over soul can make the call whether to allow it to return.

Case in point: Durkon is killed and the party locates another priest to Raise him. In order for him to be successfully raised, Durkon must want to be raised AND Thor (or Hel or however Rich has it work in his specific version of the mythos) must be willing to allow him to be raised.

In short, without knowing where Shojo's soul is or who has jurisdiction over it, his willingness or lack thereof to be raised may not be the deciding factor. (I suspect Belkar's explanation is probably correct, but there is certainly room to say that it's not Shojo's fault he didn't return).

[Gametime]

I think it's worth noting that whatever advantages Shojo being alive might have given the city in defending itself against hobgoblins, Xykon could probably have taken the entire city by himself if he was willing to take several days to do so.

The entirety of the Sapphire Guard (minus two) couldn't even touch him, and the OOTS isn't too great with ranged combat. Xykon could massacre hundreds of troops a day with an Overland Flight spell, and not a single person would be able to significantly threaten him or prevent him from retreating. The only thing that would present any difficulty would be the throne room, but Shojo being alive or dead had nothing to do with that.

So, no, Shojo didn't let Azure City fall, since absolutely nothing within his power could have made a difference. Stopping the hobgoblins wouldn't have saved the city.

[DBJack]

Actually, don't forget that it is possible that Shojo wanted to return and couldn't. The guidelines for Raise Dead (carried over to Resurrection) indicate that the soul must be free AND want to return. Many DMs (myself included) have always interpreted the first part to also mean that whatever power has jurisdiction over soul can make the call whether to allow it to return.


Shojo's religion is governed by 12 gods. Each one seems to have a different allignment (Rat seems to be more evilish, Dragon is Lawful Neutral (You can't help your clerics in the south because of my rules even if it means the deaths of my people) so it isn't unreasonable to assume that wherever Shojo, went, one of his gods is helping to govern the afterlife. All twelve gods were present to strip Miko of her powers when she struck down Shojo, so I think they would've helped him out if he wanted to go back to his kingdom

[marcelopvf]

Everything could be different if Shojo was ressurected and stood on the throne. But THAT is the problem: if Hinjo let that happen, then he wouldn't be different from his uncle, doing what is NOT right for the good of people.

But I have to agree: even though he was in jail, Shojo could give good advice to Hinjo. =/

Now I have the feeling that the city could somehow be saved. =(

[derfenrirwolv]

Given what we now know of xykons actual level, Azure city was doomed from the start. The gate may have held, but the nobles personal guards wouldn't have been able to hold against the hobgoblin hoards once the walls fell.

[Bago!!!]

Everything could be different if Shojo was ressurected and stood on the throne. But THAT is the problem: if Hinjo let that happen, then he wouldn't be different from his uncle, doing what is NOT right for the good of people.

But I have to agree: even though he was in jail, Shojo could give good advice to Hinjo. =/

Now I have the feeling that the city could somehow be saved. =(

Advice on what exactly?

And you do realize that he could have given advice from beyond the grave right? They got spells for that.

[Bibliomancer]

Given what we now know of xykons actual level, Azure city was doomed from the start. The gate may have held, but the nobles personal guards wouldn't have been able to hold against the hobgoblin hoards once the walls fell.

Not so. Assuming Shojo managed to maneuver the nobles into staying (by, say, accidentally ordering all the ships to go fishing for 2 weeks and sealing the outer wall), the extra troops could have sealed the breach. For that matter, one of the nobles probably had a court wizard who knew Wall of Stone (5th level wizard spell), thus closing the hole in the defenses. Without that, Redcloak would not have been able to help Xykon, and Soon would have killed Xykon and come looking for Redcloak.

For that matter, Shojo might have trapped Miko behind an inescapable forcecage/cube of walls of force before the battle, thus preventing the castle from exploding.

However, Shojo was told/advised by the eladrins not to come back because if Xykon fell the comic would end the IFCC would have been able to take over the gates at their leisure after the Order disbanded.

Shojo had to sacrifice part of his city's population to save the world (including all of the city). A logical decision.

[Bago!!!]

Assuming he knew that of course.

But I still stand by what I said before, even if Shojo was risen back, there is no way the nobles would aid in the defense of the city. Not with Hinjo on the throne.

[spargel]

However, Shojo was told/advised by the eladrins not to come back because if Xykon fell the comic would end the IFCC would have been able to take over the gates at their leisure after the Order disbanded.

Shojo had to sacrifice part of his city's population to save the world (including all of the city). A logical decision.

I'm not even going to try to guess on how you came to this conclusion.

[DBJack]

Assuming he knew that of course.

But I still stand by what I said before, even if Shojo was risen back, there is no way the nobles would aid in the defense of the city. Not with Hinjo on the throne.

Hinjo said something like 'let's let the magistrate sort this out and figure this all out later.' The magistrates would have probably chosen to let Shojo lead the defense of the city and have a trial later. And also, what was Shojo guilty of that he could be arrested for? Hiring adventurers to do secret dirty work in the name of the state? Pretending to be senile so he wouldn't be killed? It's not like letting him rule the city until the invasion is stopped would be more dangerous than letting someone with no experience in real leadership take control of half a million civillians.



And the IFCC, Biblio? If Roy's deva didn't give him the heads up about them, Shojo probably wouldn't have been told it in the ten minutes he was in the afterlife

[spargel]

Hinjo said something like 'let's let the magistrate sort this out and figure this all out later.' The magistrates would have probably chosen to let Shojo lead the defense of the city and have a trial later. And also, what was Shojo guilty of that he could be arrested for? Hiring adventurers to do secret dirty work in the name of the state? Pretending to be senile so he wouldn't be killed? It's not like letting him rule the city until the invasion is stopped would be more dangerous than letting someone with no experience in real leadership take control of half a million civillians.


Everyone except a few people thought Shojo was insane for most of the time. And then he was revealed to be a deceiver who ended up putting the city in a horrible situation, even without dying. Why would the magistrates choose him? I doubt he even has the kind of leadership that would help in that battle, considering that he was pretending to be insane the entire time.

By the way, he'd be arrested for faking the trial and corruption (Letting Belkar go, even if it's with an MoJ).

[Acero]

short answer: NO

long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[derfenrirwolv]

Not so. Assuming Shojo managed to maneuver the nobles into staying (by, say, accidentally ordering all the ships to go fishing for 2 weeks and sealing the outer wall), the extra troops could have sealed the breach. For that matter, one of the nobles probably had a court wizard who knew Wall of Stone (5th level wizard spell)

And thus a 9th level caster. That rates well above a nobles guard. SHojos own personal wizard was probably about that, and he didn't have a back up, indicating that wizards that level are fairly rare.



thus closing the hole in the defenses. Without that, Redcloak would not have been able to help Xykon, and Soon would have killed Xykon and come looking for Redcloak.

We saw redcloak use.. 2? Spells to get into the walls. He's standing back in reserve watching for his opening. It doesn't matter how many 5th level fighters you pack into the breach, another titanium elemental followed by a trampling elephant is going to reopen it.

[Lvl45DM!]

look if youre in a battle which yould bolster your confidence? a senile old man hiding in his castle or on the boats?
or a young black katana wielding evil smiting wolf riding paladin?
and shojo controlling the nobles into fighting? this is the man who fakes senility to avoid ninjas?
Azure city was doomed even if xykon and RC had died the 20000 remaining hobbos wouldve destroyed it

[factotum]

Hinjo said something like 'let's let the magistrate sort this out and figure this all out later.' The magistrates would have probably chosen to let Shojo lead the defense of the city and have a trial later.

I don't think they would have been given the option. Hinjo would have been far too busy with preparations for the defence of the city to worry about starting up a trial--Shojo would have been in the jail, and since he was only an Aristocrat (and a venerable one at that) he wouldn't have been much use in the fight, so he wouldn't have been part of Hinjo's work-release program.

[Larkspur]

A) I think it's very unlikely that Shojo had the power to keep the nobles in the city. If people did what he wanted, he wouldn't have needed to spend the past decade pretending to be senile.
B) Even if he had, I don't see how Kubato could have prevented Redcloak from blasting through that breach. Redcloak took out the head Azurite cleric in like five minutes, why would Kubato's pet wizard fare any better?

Honestly, the only useful thing Shojo could accomplish by being alive would be to distract fellow jailbird Miko from running into the throne room before Soon finished off Xykon and Redcloak.