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oxinabox
2009-10-04, 08:01 AM
What builds (build parts) work so well yet make almost no sense?

for example
4e rogue.
One of the Best Feats is Mounted Combat. (gain access to abilities of your mount)
You then Put your Rogue on a Giant Ant
You can now Shift 2 as a move action. (req lvl 4+)
So assuming team member, shifts 1, you can always flank in on round. (assuming no barriers)
And since your speed is now 9.
when you win inititive, you should always make it to the victem to get you flat footed sneak attack.
Thus you should always get you sneak attack on.

Also the ant can use your Stealth, acrobatics, athletic and endurance checks?
That's right! you good at being sneaky? well you can do it just as well when mounted on a giant ant!

the ant can also use it's bite attack(as your standard action) to make the target fall prone, (+9vs AC).
unfortunately the victem will prably standup on his turn. so no sneak attack there...

total cost: 1200gp + 1 feat

What wierd, yet powerful things have you found in varios RPing systems?

Myshlaevsky
2009-10-04, 08:10 AM
I've not been following 4e for a while now but that doesn't really "not make sense" to me. It sounds completely awesome.

Is the ant not relatively easy to take down as the game goes on, anyway?

Sir_Elderberry
2009-10-04, 08:18 AM
I've not been following 4e for a while now but that doesn't really "not make sense" to me. It sounds completely awesome.

Is the ant not relatively easy to take down as the game goes on, anyway?

I think the bit he's calling "not make sense on" is that the Stealth check doesn't take a penalty. Which is, I suppose, true, but I'd wager most DMs are going to give your enemies a circumstance bonus to Perception. (For seeing, at least. In a world where giant ants make biological sense, I'm willing to accept that they might actually be very quiet.)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-04, 08:20 AM
Drowning to heal yourself back to -1 HP?
No penalty on actions while dead?
D&D 3.5

But these don't really work well.

Temet Nosce
2009-10-04, 08:45 AM
Tripping in 3.5, ala Jack B. Quick.

oxinabox
2009-10-04, 08:54 AM
I've not been following 4e for a while now but that doesn't really "not make sense" to me. It sounds completely awesome.

Is the ant not relatively easy to take down as the game goes on, anyway?

Giant ant: (1200 gp)
HP 54;
AC 18; Fortitude 17, Reflex 17, Will 14
Speed 9:

Riding Horse (75 gp)
HP 36;
AC 14; Fortitude 15, Refl ex 13, Will 10
Speed 10 (by MM0) or 8 (by Adventures vault)

Warhorse (200gp)
HP 58; Bloodied 29
AC 17; Fortitude 16, Reflex 14, Will 14
Speed 8

Giant ant is beats Warhorse for toughness, just.
I think it's fine. if your worried about your best class feature (sneak attack giving wonder) dying, bring 2.

Entertaininly it apears that at paragon lvls the intended basic mount might just be the riding lizard.

you can + 1 ac from light barding for 75gp (no penatly to anything)
or +2 for -2 chk (wich doesn't matter since we're using PC's check) and -1 speed

there is the requirement of lvl 4 for the shifting (i forgot to mention)

I've always maintained 4e rogues were so very breakble.
My first attempted had me on max 45 damage at lvl 1.
I've being fiddling with it on and off.
and it now includes things like the giant ant.
and also: "your surican's do d4? mine do d8's"

BritishBill
2009-10-04, 08:57 AM
In modern only certain classes can be trained in spot and listen, it makes no sense...and it doesnt work that well... aww :smallfrown:

Riffington
2009-10-04, 09:02 AM
Hit Points.

Myshlaevsky
2009-10-04, 09:07 AM
So yes, it is quite easy to take down later on then?

I don't understand why this works "too well". It allows the Rogue to move faster and get CA more often, but Rogues are usually capable of both those things anyway.

I can sort of understand your point about there being no mechanical stealth penalty by default, but if there was people probably would never take it.

oxinabox
2009-10-04, 09:19 AM
I don't understand why this works "too well"..
It's not too good
it just makes no sense that one of the best things you can do to your sneaky backstabber is mount him on a giant insect.

Currently it's much much better to put your rogue on a Ant than it is to do anything else with any mount.
(that i can find, Maybe Lance has been released with PHB3?)

I'm totally going to use it next time i play:
So you see i was a Giant ant Farmer, and then i stole this ant from the farm and set out on an adventure.
I use my ant to get behind people so i can stab them.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-04, 09:24 AM
I've always maintained 4e rogues were so very breakble.
Really?

We can do so much worse with the ranger. There's a mount that gets a free attack whenever you attack; combine this with Twin Strike and go to town...

Myshlaevsky
2009-10-04, 09:26 AM
It's not too good
it just makes no sense that one of the best things you can do to your sneaky backstabber is mount him on a giant insect.

Currently it's much much better to put your rogue on a Ant than it is to do anything else with any mount.
(that i can find, Maybe Lance has been released with PHB3?)

I'm totally going to use it next time i play:
So you see i was a Giant ant Farmer, and then i stole this ant from the farm and set out on an adventure.
I use my ant to get behind people so i can stab them.

Eh, it's not that jarring to me. As Sir Elderberry says, in a world with Giant Ants I am pretty okay with them being particularly silent or agile as mounts.

oxinabox
2009-10-04, 09:30 AM
Really?

We can do so much worse with the ranger. There's a mount that gets a free attack whenever you attack; combine this with Twin Strike and go to town...

oh! don't get me started with the Ranger!
I ban ranger straight out.
I've seen one played by someone how's never player before, it's just so much better than most things.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-04, 09:32 AM
Eh, it's not that jarring to me. As Sir Elderberry says, in a world with Giant Ants I am pretty okay with them being particularly silent or agile as mounts.

That's a point.

Regarding things that work well yet make no sense, let me present the level-1 rogue power, Blinding Barrage.

Yes, I can throw daggers with such precision that they cut nine enemies right above the eye, so that they get blood in their eyes! Yes, I can do that even against enemies that have no blood, or have no eyes. No, I can't do it more than once per day, not even against one enemy. Yes, I can do it with only a single dagger, or even with a sling stone. No, I can't hit them in the eyes instead, because that would be overpowered. Yes, this is much easier than just throwing sand at their face, and no, I can't teach this to an equal-leveled fighter because rogues are so much better with weapons than fighters are...

Jalor
2009-10-04, 09:35 AM
The 4e Rogue power Bloody Path. You run past the demons, and... they hit themselves?

Kurald Galain
2009-10-04, 09:39 AM
The 4e Rogue power Bloody Path. You run past the demons, and... they hit themselves?

The fighter power Come And Get It. I use my magical powers to charm everyone into moving forward, so that I can hit them... except that I don't have any magical powers since I'm a fighter! Yes, even cowardly, artillery, or mindless enemies will come forward, but invisibile enemies will not, since to taunt people I have to be able to see them...

oxinabox
2009-10-04, 09:48 AM
The fighter power Come And Get It. I use my magical powers to charm everyone into moving forward, so that I can hit them... except that I don't have any magical powers since I'm a fighter! Yes, even cowardly, artillery, or mindless enemies will come forward, but invisibile enemies will not, since to taunt people I have to be able to see them...
Yet it works Sooo Well, something that Cleave fighters Love!

lesser_minion
2009-10-04, 10:21 AM
That's a point.

Regarding things that work well yet make no sense, let me present the level-1 rogue power, Blinding Barrage.

Yes, I can throw daggers with such precision that they cut nine enemies right above the eye, so that they get blood in their eyes! Yes, I can do that even against enemies that have no blood, or have no eyes. No, I can't do it more than once per day, not even against one enemy. Yes, I can do it with only a single dagger, or even with a sling stone. No, I can't hit them in the eyes instead, because that would be overpowered. Yes, this is much easier than just throwing sand at their face, and no, I can't teach this to an equal-leveled fighter because rogues are so much better with weapons than fighters are...

You can also use it with a crossbow. I know the things reload faster now, but it is still mildly ridiculous.

Paulus
2009-10-04, 11:00 AM
*reads the thread*

huh...

Apparently 4E works so well yet makes no sense...

Zeta Kai
2009-10-04, 11:31 AM
Apparently 4E works so well yet makes no sense...

That's what I've been trying to tell people, but they still cling to their broken, goofy system. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to DM some 3.5E... :smalltongue:

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-04, 11:33 AM
Giant ant: (1200 gp)
HP 54;
AC 18; Fortitude 17, Reflex 17, Will 14
Speed 9:

Riding Horse (75 gp)
HP 36;
AC 14; Fortitude 15, Refl ex 13, Will 10
Speed 10 (by MM0) or 8 (by Adventures vault)

Warhorse (200gp)
HP 58; Bloodied 29
AC 17; Fortitude 16, Reflex 14, Will 14
Speed 8

Giant ant is beats Warhorse for toughness, just.
I think it's fine. if your worried about your best class feature (sneak attack giving wonder) dying, bring 2.


Um.

Dire Wolf?
lvl 5 skirmisher.
HP 67,
Ac; 19, Fort 18, ref 17, will 16.
Speed 6.

But now look at it's mount ability...

Combat Advantage

The dire wolf gains combat advantage against a target that has one or more of the dire wolf’s allies adjacent to it. If the dire wolf has combat advantage against the target, the target is also knocked prone on a hit.

Pack Hunter (while mounted by a friendly rider of 5th level or higher, at-will) Mount

The dire wolf’s rider gains combat advantage against an enemy if it has at least one ally other than its mount adjacent to the target.

With the giant ant actually showing at 1,800gp, and the dire wolf actually 800gp LESS than that, well.

No wonder all those goblin sneakies are riding Wolves. :)

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-04, 11:41 AM
No penalty on actions while dead?

You're automatically unconscious while dead, since your nonlethal damage (a non-negative number) will exceed your current hit points (a negative number). Being immune to nonlethal damage does not change that, since 0 is still larger than a negative number.

hiryuu
2009-10-04, 12:08 PM
In modern only certain classes can be trained in spot and listen, it makes no sense...and it doesnt work that well... aww :smallfrown:

Until you start taking into account occupations, advanced classes, and so on, (in addition to the fact that the classes get Hide and Move Silently are just about as abundant) then start to think to yourself how many normal people in the modern world are completely oblivious to their surroundings.

Seriously, how many people have to take 20 on Search to find their own car keys? Now imagine them looking for something they don't even know is there.

What I think what doesn't make sense but works so well is taking a hit by a Barret light fifty and still standing, or the ability to batter down a bank vault door with your fists or answer the hardest physics questions in the world by level 3.

ZeroNumerous
2009-10-04, 02:02 PM
You're automatically unconscious while dead, since your nonlethal damage (a non-negative number) will exceed your current hit points (a negative number). Being immune to nonlethal damage does not change that, since 0 is still larger than a negative number.

So if you're immune to unconsciousness and aren't instantly destroyed at 0 HP(..Eh.. Warforged?) you can continue acting.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-04, 02:06 PM
What about Diehard? Epic Autohypnosis? Beastland Ferocity? Some of these specify that you're not unconscious, but not all. Since at -1 HP, your nonlethal damage is supposedly greater than your HP and you're unconscious anyway, being able to act means nothing.

Naturally, all these abilities only apply when you're dieing. But honestly, contriving a ruling just to deal with an issue that would only come up due to inhuman stupid seems a waste of effort.


So if you're immune to unconsciousness
Immune to unconsciousness? Is that an ability?

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-04, 02:06 PM
I don't have Monster Manual III at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that "immunity to unconsciousness" is not a Warforged trait. They are immune to a lot of effects that cause being Unconscious as a result, but not unconsciousness itself.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-04, 02:37 PM
3.5 Wizard. Hell, Magic in general doesn't make sense (at least from a scientific standpoint).


The PHB has Alchemist's Fire and Acid, but not Frost or Shock (both of which were printed in the Arms and Equipment Guide).

hamishspence
2009-10-04, 02:44 PM
I don't know if even "constructs" are immune to unconsciousness- but virtually every effect that causes it, they are immune to.

Living constructs do not have most of those immunities. In Races of Eberron it mentioned that some warforged deliberately inflict small amounts of nonlethal damage on themselves, so that when they are reduced to slightly above 0 hp, they fall unconscious- and wake up a short time later.

Their commanders apparently disapproved of this trick though.

BritishBill
2009-10-04, 04:49 PM
Until you start taking into account occupations, advanced classes, and so on, (in addition to the fact that the classes get Hide and Move Silently are just about as abundant) then start to think to yourself how many normal people in the modern world are completely oblivious to their surroundings.

Seriously, how many people have to take 20 on Search to find their own car keys? Now imagine them looking for something they don't even know is there.

What I think what doesn't make sense but works so well is taking a hit by a Barret light fifty and still standing, or the ability to batter down a bank vault door with your fists or answer the hardest physics questions in the world by level 3.
The only people oblivious to their surroundings are people in mental asylums. Im saying just because your a certain class you should not be able to spot and listen for anything thats absurd. Just because my character may be a tough doesnt mean he cant have hobbies such as hunting to raise his perception of the world around him.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-04, 04:57 PM
Im saying just because your a certain class you should not be able to spot and listen for anything thats absurd. Just because my character may be a tough doesnt mean he cant have hobbies such as hunting to raise his perception of the world around him.

You spot and listen by using basic wisdom modifiers. You represent those hobbies by multiclassing (which is quite easy and encouraged, because being a monolithic tough guy tends to restrict you IRL) or by using professions.

oxinabox
2009-10-04, 06:34 PM
Um.

Dire Wolf?
lvl 5 skirmisher.
HP 67,
Ac; 19, Fort 18, ref 17, will 16.
Speed 6.

But now look at it's mount ability...

Combat Advantage

The dire wolf gains combat advantage against a target that has one or more of the dire wolf’s allies adjacent to it. If the dire wolf has combat advantage against the target, the target is also knocked prone on a hit.

Pack Hunter (while mounted by a friendly rider of 5th level or higher, at-will) Mount

The dire wolf’s rider gains combat advantage against an enemy if it has at least one ally other than its mount adjacent to the target.

With the giant ant actually showing at 1,800gp, and the dire wolf actually 800gp LESS than that, well.

No wonder all those goblin sneakies are riding Wolves. :)
WOW, that even better!

Also You can (with mounted combat) use your sneak check for an elephant!

hewhosaysfish
2009-10-05, 10:23 AM
You're automatically unconscious while dead, since your nonlethal damage (a non-negative number) will exceed your current hit points (a negative number). Being immune to nonlethal damage does not change that, since 0 is still larger than a negative number.

Being unconscious doesn't explicitly prevent you from taking actions any more than being dead does.

That said, being unconscious makes you helpless; being helpless makes your Dex drop to 0; having a Dex of 0 makes you paralyzed; being paralyzed makes you unable to take any physical actions.

So - being dead prevents you from taking physical actions. But not mental ones. DEAD PSION FTW!

Draz74
2009-10-05, 11:06 AM
So I think, rather than rules that just don't make verisimilar sense themselves, the OP was looking more for fighting styles that are frankly odd, yet have become rather commonplace because they were optimal.

In that light, 3e Tripping is the best answer that has been put forward.

Others are abundant, though. Clerics who worship the concepts of Planning and Undeath? Explorers who carry large arrays of packets of flour with them into dungeons? Warriors who eschew shields, fighting with a greatsword? Knife-fighters who fight with two knives instead of one?

Kurald Galain
2009-10-05, 11:08 AM
So I think, rather than rules that just don't make verisimilar sense themselves, the OP was looking more for fighting styles that are frankly odd, yet have become rather commonplace because they were optimal.

In that case, two words: spiked chain.

Two more words: double sword. I suppose Star Wars is to blame for that one, but ask any SCA'er about double swords and they'll laugh at you.

Draz74
2009-10-05, 11:16 AM
In that case, two words: spiked chain.
Amen!


Two more words: double sword. I suppose Star Wars is to blame for that one, but ask any SCA'er about double swords and they'll laugh at you.
Yeah, although it didn't actually get popular in 3e, just in 4e.

Funny, though, how Darth Maul's weapon was really more of a quarterstaff than a sword. Sure it could cut things, because that's how lightsabers are. But the reason he was able to make it an effective (-looking) fighting style was because he was basing it on real-life staff martial arts.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-05, 11:32 AM
In that case, two words: spiked chain.

Two more words: double sword. I suppose Star Wars is to blame for that one, but ask any SCA'er about double swords and they'll laugh at you.

The original Two-Bladed Sword was more like the one from Advent Children (the blades were parallel instead of opposing). 3rd party publishers also noted this. WotC's change isn't exactly unheard of, but they are not intended to be used (decoration only). SW Ep1 can be viewed as responsible for the mainstream version of it.

And the Spiked Chain was likely derived from the Meteor Hammer.

Oslecamo
2009-10-05, 11:38 AM
And the Spiked Chain was likely derived from the Meteor Hammer.

Really? Because I can remember chains with pointy things being a demonic weapon for some time before that.

endoperez
2009-10-05, 12:08 PM
Really? Because I can remember chains with pointy things being a demonic weapon for some time before that.

Most probably, he didn't mean the meteor hammer you're thinking of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_hammer
"The Meteor hammer (流星錘, liúxīng chuí), often referred to simply as 'meteor', is an ancient Chinese weapon, consisting at its most basic level of two weights connected by a rope or chain."

If you did mean that meteor hammer, where do you live, O Wise Ancient One, and do you take apprentices? :smallbiggrin: Have these been used in any recent media?

Xenogears
2009-10-05, 12:41 PM
Clerics who worship the concepts of Planning and Undeath?

Whats so wierd about Clerics of Vecna now?

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-10-05, 01:02 PM
Most probably, he didn't mean the meteor hammer you're thinking of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_hammer
"The Meteor hammer (流星錘, liúxīng chuí), often referred to simply as 'meteor', is an ancient Chinese weapon, consisting at its most basic level of two weights connected by a rope or chain."

If you did mean that meteor hammer, where do you live, O Wise Ancient One, and do you take apprentices? :smallbiggrin: Have these been used in any recent media?

The schoolgirl in Kill Bill Vol. 1 used a kind of meteor hammer against The Bride. I'm not sure if the actual weapon is as effective (or awesome-looking) as the one she used, but it was pretty bad-ass.

-JM

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-05, 01:43 PM
Whats so wierd about Clerics of Vecna now?

It's not too unusual, and neither is a two-handed swordfighter. It's just that it's more common than it logically "should" be due to its mechanical efficiacy.

Sebastian
2009-10-05, 03:42 PM
So I think, rather than rules that just don't make verisimilar sense themselves, the OP was looking more for fighting styles that are frankly odd, yet have become rather commonplace because they were optimal.


What about 5' step + spellcasting?

It make no sense, you are in melee with someone and you just step back and cast a spell and he stand there like a moron with no way to stop you. I can't be the only one that think it is absurd.

Dixieboy
2009-10-05, 03:50 PM
3.5 Wizard. Hell, Magic in general doesn't make sense (at least from a scientific standpoint).


The PHB has Alchemist's Fire and Acid, but not Frost or Shock (both of which were printed in the Arms and Equipment Guide).

When i think of stuff you throw at people I think of stuff that explodes and acid before I think of liquid nitrogen.

But as for the subject at hand:
Any cheesy build, ever. :smallannoyed:

Oslecamo
2009-10-05, 03:53 PM
Most probably, he didn't mean the meteor hammer you're thinking of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_hammer
"The Meteor hammer (流星錘, liúxīng chuí), often referred to simply as 'meteor', is an ancient Chinese weapon, consisting at its most basic level of two weights connected by a rope or chain."

Indeed I was refering to that one, but unfortenely there really isn't much precise data about when people started tying up rocks on a rope and swinging it at their enemies like that.

But I could swear that at least some ancient greek legends had some gods/monsters with chains wich would use them as an improvised weapon, but I can't remember exactly who.




If you did mean that meteor hammer, where do you live, O Wise Ancient One, and do you take apprentices?:smallbiggrin:
Now now, if I told it here people would flood the place where I live and I wouldn't be able to finish my studies properly.:smalltongue:




Have these been used in any recent media?

Unfortenely, exotic melee weapons have fallen out of popularity nowadays. It's all about pistols and special powers.

But I do remember a movie some years ago where there was a laser chain!:smallbiggrin: