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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Potential Issues in a Racing-Based Campaign?



OracleofWuffing
2009-10-04, 03:10 PM
Maybe I fell on my head one too many times whilst watching Wacky Races as a child, but I somehow got this crazy notion in my head that having some sort of crazy footrace as a campaign (or part of a campaign) could get some interesting results. The idea being that the players collectively don't want the bad guys to win, and at the same time, each individual player has his or her reason that he or she needs to win the race. So, you'd get situations where everyone's trying to out-dirty-trick everyone else, immediately followed up by situations where people need to work together to get around some huge monster that's roadblocking the way to the finish line. Meanwhile, while the people in the lead are taking out said monster, it'd be viable for those in the back ranks to start getting a lead, and maybe sneak by ahead of the action.

The thing is, that sort of idea sounds pretty fragile. I am guessing that there are at least three ways to break the speed of light in a vaccuum, and at least twice as many ways to break the speed of sound. The simplest houserule would be, "Hey, guys, you're going to race, but don't break anything with your characters," but there's just a handful of things that'll just break the idea over the character's knee. Any thought-out use of flight, for example, just opens the door to flying over the dang race and avoiding everything. Anything that even smells like teleporation is going to be an unfair advantage to that character. That's not even touching what sort of things Travel Devotion can do.

So, besides what I've already thought out aloud, what other sort of rules should be in place to prevent giving someone an "instant win" button in this sort of scenario? Just hand out a blanket no-go for anyone that wants to go mounted? Give everyone the Endurance feat for free? Should there just be a ceiling as to how many feet a character can move in a single round, and if so, how far should that be? Anything to fear from the burrowing front?

For bookkeeping, assume that any official splatbook is usable.

If anyone else has tried this sort of thing (even outside of D&D), I'm interested in hearing how it went.

zagan
2009-10-04, 03:22 PM
The idea could be interesting I think but to avoid to much cheese it would be best implement in an existing campaign that way the player must use their existing character and not create one just for it.
As for flying, teleporting or mount just make it a foot race with a reglement forbiding that sort of thing if the player do so they are disqualified.

Starsinger
2009-10-04, 03:37 PM
Finally, a campaign where being a monk is a wondrous thing!

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-04, 03:57 PM
Finally, a campaign where being a monk is a wondrous thing!

Incarnate>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Monk. Or Totemist with the Dread Carapace.

So much for that enhancement bonus to speed...

Toliudar
2009-10-04, 04:04 PM
The key to this, just to avoid players working to stack up every speed bonus they can into a build, is to make it a very long-distance race, so that there's ample opportunity for people to get back into it. Challenges that slow down or imperil the front-runner will help to correct early leads, and keep things interesting.

Myou
2009-10-04, 04:12 PM
I was hoping you were referring to Steel Ball Run.

It's about a guy and his steel balls.

Kanosint
2009-10-04, 04:59 PM
May I suggest Spycraft? Or even getting inspired by WoD? It has rules for footraces that actually work... Not every human commoner is as fast, and it involves dexterity, strength and constitution, and quite a few tricks if you pick Spycraft (they're D20 rules...)

They're very much dramatic and make races about as intense and viable as combat...

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-04, 05:03 PM
If you're going to do this for some time or in some depth, a non-D&D system would be worth using for this "minigame" (or megagame). This isn't the sort of thing D&D takes into account. Just find a way to plug existing spells and the like into the system (and, of course, translate your characters).

imp_fireball
2009-10-04, 05:16 PM
Maybe I fell on my head one too many times whilst watching Wacky Races as a child, but I somehow got this crazy notion in my head that having some sort of crazy footrace as a campaign (or part of a campaign) could get some interesting results. The idea being that the players collectively don't want the bad guys to win, and at the same time, each individual player has his or her reason that he or she needs to win the race. So, you'd get situations where everyone's trying to out-dirty-trick everyone else, immediately followed up by situations where people need to work together to get around some huge monster that's roadblocking the way to the finish line. Meanwhile, while the people in the lead are taking out said monster, it'd be viable for those in the back ranks to start getting a lead, and maybe sneak by ahead of the action.

The thing is, that sort of idea sounds pretty fragile. I am guessing that there are at least three ways to break the speed of light in a vaccuum, and at least twice as many ways to break the speed of sound. The simplest houserule would be, "Hey, guys, you're going to race, but don't break anything with your characters," but there's just a handful of things that'll just break the idea over the character's knee. Any thought-out use of flight, for example, just opens the door to flying over the dang race and avoiding everything. Anything that even smells like teleporation is going to be an unfair advantage to that character. That's not even touching what sort of things Travel Devotion can do.

So, besides what I've already thought out aloud, what other sort of rules should be in place to prevent giving someone an "instant win" button in this sort of scenario? Just hand out a blanket no-go for anyone that wants to go mounted? Give everyone the Endurance feat for free? Should there just be a ceiling as to how many feet a character can move in a single round, and if so, how far should that be? Anything to fear from the burrowing front?

For bookkeeping, assume that any official splatbook is usable.

If anyone else has tried this sort of thing (even outside of D&D), I'm interested in hearing how it went.

I think for teleportation, it's a matter of nullifying any useful areas of the race. Perhaps the entire track is covered in whatever it was that prevents scrying and teleportation? Very simple solution, I know.

For roleplaying, if magic is involved at all (and if said wizards even find any use in participating in such a race) then the sponsors and designers probably hired top mages to make the game 'un-hackable/cheatable'.
------

Also the benefit offered by spycraft can easily be overcome by a few houserules. And dexterity and constitution checks are already involved in SRD rules.

OracleofWuffing
2009-10-04, 06:16 PM
The idea could be interesting I think but to avoid to much cheese it would be best implement in an existing campaign that way the player must use their existing character and not create one just for it.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I was thinking of making it part of a campaign. The issue being that people who are optimized for dungeon-crawling, role-playing, skill-monkeying, or spellcasting may end up gimping their characters far too much, so they wouldn't even try to win. I also find it kind of nasty that, all of a sudden, "whoops, all those spells and magic items you've been using for the past three months? Well, you can't use them for this chapter."


Finally, a campaign where being a monk is a wondrous thing!

Incarnate>Monk.
Woo-hoo! Three posts in, and I've already started the next monk topic! :smallbiggrin:


The key to this, just to avoid players working to stack up every speed bonus they can into a build, is to make it a very long-distance race, so that there's ample opportunity for people to get back into it. Challenges that slow down or imperil the front-runner will help to correct early leads, and keep things interesting.
I agree with the thought process 100%. I was particularly thinking that the race should take multiple days to finish, and allow everyone to rest for the night whenever they wanted, but everybody would wake up at the same time. That'd play around with the idea of having out-of-combat buffs constantly up (since you'd have to take the time to cast them, giving everyone else a head start), while adding a bit more planning and resource management on the players' end.

That said, it does create a hard "Chicken or the Egg" issue, as I really have no idea how long is long, and the length of long is going to depend on what PCs are actually in the race. Haste is going to throw a wrench or two into the plan, even moreso than usual.


I was hoping you were referring to Steel Ball Run.

It's about a guy and his steel balls.
I'm afraid that a joke might have gone over my head here?


[Take a look at Spycraft or some other systems...]
Spycraft's not immediately available to me, and most of my experience is in D&D 3.5, but I'll see if I can give the rules a once-or-twice-over. Thanks for the suggestion!

Myou
2009-10-05, 01:25 AM
I'm afraid that a joke might have gone over my head here?


Probably because it was a reference to this (http://www.onemanga.com/JoJos_Bizarre_Adventure_-_Steel_Ball_Run/), not this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage). :smallwink:

Tackyhillbillu
2009-10-05, 01:55 AM
Make sure you had obstacles that played to each character's strengths. Like say, don't throw all traps and then expect the Fighter to keep up with the Rogue or Factotum.

Pretty obvious, just something to keep in mind.

Heliomance
2009-10-05, 02:01 AM
Hey, our fighter was better at disarming traps than the rogue. It went something like "Fort save" "pass" "Fort save" "pass" "Ref save" "pass" "Fort save" "pass" "Right. The party fighter disappears in a flurry of needles and traps going off. When everything clears, he's still powering along down the corridor, unharmed. The corridor is now clear of traps."

Myou
2009-10-05, 04:46 AM
Hey, our fighter was better at disarming traps than the rogue. It went something like "Fort save" "pass" "Fort save" "pass" "Ref save" "pass" "Fort save" "pass" "Right. The party fighter disappears in a flurry of needles and traps going off. When everything clears, he's still powering along down the corridor, unharmed. The corridor is now clear of traps."

So none of them were reflex half?

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-05, 06:06 AM
So none of them were reflex half?

Evasion, maybe? And mettle?

Myou
2009-10-05, 06:31 AM
Evasion, maybe? And mettle?

Fighters don't get Evasion or Mettle.

OracleofWuffing
2009-10-05, 12:22 PM
:smallconfused: Why use a Fighter when you could use the Druid's animal companion?

Anyhow, I think I have the relevant Spycraft book now. Any chapters I should take special care in noticing?

Great, yet another d20 book with rules on seduction, thanks, I really needed that...

Kanosint
2009-10-05, 12:26 PM
Mostly the chapter on the Dramatic Resolutions, I think it was called... Chasing, Hacking, etc is all in there...

RagnaroksChosen
2009-10-05, 12:39 PM
Mabye do some thing where there working as a group... a race being like some number of adventuring groups need to get to the the greywall mts. pick up a orange stone (specificaly set up for this game) then to the forbidden forest to pick up a blue stone. then to some where else to pick up some other stone.

Could make it a few months travel between each location that could be fun. A sense of urgency.

I would tell the players when there building there characters that they will be racing as a team. If they want to all be speady gonzalus that may work but trying to get to these items are not only guarded but also you have to deal with the what ever races and monsters live in that area(like goblins in the mountian example)

Any way my 2cp

OracleofWuffing
2009-10-05, 04:49 PM
Mostly the chapter on the Dramatic Resolutions, I think it was called... Chasing, Hacking, etc is all in there...
Er... I don't see anything about footraces in here. Regardless, It seems like this is more or less 4e Skill challenges with a card game thrown in, and the book's just trying way too hard to make a system as simple as that sound as complicated as possible. Don't get me wrong, I'm certain this stuff is cool to a good number of people, but the more I read about it, the less interested I get.


Could make it a few months travel between each location that could be fun. A sense of urgency.
Months might be a bit too much. :smallwink: At that point, you get people that decide to camp out at the finish line and gank whoever comes in first place before crossing.

AtwasAwamps
2009-10-07, 03:29 PM
Ahem.

Blue Shells.

OracleofWuffing
2009-10-08, 04:58 PM
Aaand as long as we're knocking off Mario Kart here, might as well speak out of something I've been thinking of but have also been thinking it's too complex: Three groups of two PC's versus each other and two groups of two villain-type-people. Adding that extra companion-type-person is going to discourage situation where one dirty trick will ruin things forever, but might be even more problematic in breaking things... Two wizards, a wizard and a cleric, a wizard and a druid, another two wizards... Eh, but that sort of thing happens regardless in any campaign. So, yeah, what sounds better (assuming that there are enough people at the table for either), four players free-for-all, or six players working in three teams?

Jlerpy
2009-10-08, 08:50 PM
I'd suggest that checkpoints would be a pretty good way to curb potential teleport abuses. Include more than n mid-race checkpoints (where n is the maximum number of times that a Wizard of the appropriate level could prepare anything teleport-y) and that should solve things okay.

Having those checkpoints on the ground should help somewhat limit the benefits of flight too.