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Kaerius
2009-10-04, 08:36 PM
Anyone else figured out you can cheese out a really nasty defender/controler/striker combo with this?

The keys are in the weapon glaive, feats, a barbarian at will and polearm master

Namely:
Pressuring strike
Heavy blade opportunity
Spear push
Polearm momentum

That's 3 paragon feats and a paragon path so it won't really "go off" until lvl 12(with one retrained feat).

However at that point you can start really pushing people around...

Then to add to that, you can stack fighter stances with barbarian rages, and grab the lvl 13 and (much later) the lvl 27 barbarian multi-hit encounter powers for some nasty damage output(tripple digit), not as rough as someone who specializes in using those, but still quite brutal.

One drawback is that the power that grants threatening reach is a daily(from the paragon path).

Example build from the DDI character builder:
Polearm master, level 30
Goliath, Fighter|Barbarian, Polearm Master, Chosen
Hybrid Talent: Combat Superiority
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Constitution
Background: Former Gladiator, Explorer/Guide, Auspicious Birth, Goliath - Lightlost (Explorer/Guide Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 28, Con 24, Dex 17, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 43 Fort: 42 Reflex: 34 Will: 35
HP: 213 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 53

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +30, Endurance +32, Perception +23

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +15, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +18, Heal +18, History +15, Insight +18, Intimidate +16, Nature +22, Religion +15, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent (Combat Superiority)
Level 2: Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Level 4: Blade Opportunist
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) (retrained to Spear Push at Level 11)
Level 10: Armor Proficiency (Chainmail)
Level 11: Polearm Momentum
Level 12: Heavy Blade Opportunity
Level 14: Agile Opportunist
Level 16: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 18: Power Attack
Level 20: Unyielding Stone
Level 21: Reaching Whirlwind
Level 22: Heavy Blade Mastery
Level 24: Martial Mastery
Level 26: Primal Resurgence
Level 28: Blind-Fight
Level 30: Chainmail Agility

POWERS
Hybrid Barbarian at-will 1: Pressing Strike
Hybrid Fighter at-will 1: Crushing Surge
Hybrid encounter 1: Great Cleave
Hybrid daily 1: Comeback Strike
Hybrid utility 2: Endure Pain
Hybrid encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Hybrid daily 5: Silver Phoenix Rage
Hybrid utility 6: Laugh it Off
Hybrid encounter 7: Curtain of Steel
Hybrid daily 9: Victorious Surge
Hybrid utility 10: Defensive Resurgence
Hybrid encounter 13: Storm of Blades (replaces Great Cleave)
Hybrid daily 15: Serpent Dance Strike (replaces Comeback Strike)
Hybrid utility 16: Spur the Cycle
Hybrid encounter 17: Vorpal Tornado (replaces Sweeping Blow)
Hybrid daily 19: Winter Phoenix Rage (replaces Serpent Dance Strike)
Hybrid utility 22: Inspired Resurgence
Hybrid encounter 23: Paralyzing Strike (replaces Curtain of Steel)
Hybrid daily 25: Marking Barrage (replaces Silver Phoenix Rage)
Hybrid encounter 27: Hurricane of Blades (replaces Paralyzing Strike)
Hybrid daily 29: Relentless Assailant (replaces Victorious Surge)

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Dwarven Spiritmail +6, Vorpal Glaive +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Gauntlets of Destruction (paragon tier), Horned Helm (epic tier), Scarab of Invulnerability +6, Ring of the Dragonborn Emperor (paragon tier), Ring of Free Time (epic tier), Vengeance Sash (epic tier), Strongheart Tattoo (epic tier)


Anyone else found any really stinky cheese builds?

Arbitrarity
2009-10-04, 09:00 PM
Goliath Greatweapon prof and weapon focus don't stack. Thus, taking WF in heroic is a bit of a waste, and you should just retrain Greatweapon prof in epic.

I'm also not sure how agile opportunist is helping you, compared to, say, Polearm gamble.
Nice build, though. I like the idea, and it's reminiscent of 3.5 in some ways.

Also, Eternal defender looks fun with this, just for even more reach :smallbiggrin:

Kaerius
2009-10-04, 09:24 PM
My bad on the double profs then. However the goliath one is still better on all counts(+2, +3, +4 on the different tier levels), so no need to retrain it on epic.

Agile opportunist is there for a simple reason really: you'll likely have party members who can move you around(or for that matter, a few enemies who might pull you), and any time they do, and you end up next to an enemy, the combo goes off(heavy blade opportunity->pressing strike->spear push->polearm momentum).

Arbitrarity
2009-10-04, 09:55 PM
Point. I forgot Goliath prof scales, that's great.
With the free feat, I'd go grab scale + specialization. Martial mastery is useless at 30, thanks to Demigod. Retrain to something, defenses maybe?
Polearm gamble is still a very worthwhile feat as well, because it makes the entire combo trigger anytime any enemy moves adjacent to you. This also prevents them from attacking you.
Relentless assailant is nowhere near as good as, say, Crimson Phoenix Rage.

Hm. On a more on topic note, I'll need to give some hybrid options a bit more thought.

Kaerius
2009-10-04, 11:42 PM
Minor rework:

I substituted weapon focus with deadly rage(still +1, +2, +3 damage, but requires raging), swapped out marking barrage with relentless assailant and the old position of relentless assailant with crimson phoenix rage. And at 30, retraining martial mastery with polearm gamble.

I didn't have the crimson phoenix in before because I figured in most cases I'd rather be using silver phoenix(only one shot at reviving, but regen 12 is nothing to sneeze at, the +1W fire damage from crimson is kinda meh on the other hand, so much that will resist it).

But with these reworks at least he's a bit more ready for more than one fight per day. (threatening reach being daily, gets backup from polearm gamble, and silver phoenix / crimson phoenix being fairly interchangeable).

He doesn't need polearm gamble when he's got threatening reach... (to get adjacent to him, the enemy has to leave a square in his reach).

Polearm master, level 30
Goliath, Fighter|Barbarian, Polearm Master, Chosen
Hybrid Talent: Combat Superiority
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Constitution
Background: Former Gladiator, Explorer/Guide, Auspicious Birth, Goliath - Lightlost (Explorer/Guide Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 28, Con 24, Dex 17, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 43 Fort: 42 Reflex: 34 Will: 35
HP: 213 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 53

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +30, Endurance +32, Perception +23

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +15, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +18, Heal +18, History +15, Insight +18, Intimidate +16, Nature +22, Religion +15, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Level 4: Blade Opportunist
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Armor Proficiency (Chainmail)
Level 10: Deadly Rage (retrained to Spear Push at Level 11)
Level 11: Polearm Momentum
Level 12: Heavy Blade Opportunity
Level 14: Agile Opportunist
Level 16: Deadly Rage
Level 18: Power Attack
Level 20: Unyielding Stone
Level 21: Reaching Whirlwind
Level 22: Heavy Blade Mastery
Level 24: Martial Mastery (retrained to Polearm Gamble at Level 30)
Level 26: Primal Resurgence
Level 28: Blind-Fight
Level 30: Chainmail Agility

POWERS
Hybrid Barbarian at-will 1: Pressing Strike
Hybrid Fighter at-will 1: Crushing Surge
Hybrid encounter 1: Great Cleave
Hybrid daily 1: Comeback Strike
Hybrid utility 2: Endure Pain
Hybrid encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Hybrid daily 5: Silver Phoenix Rage
Hybrid utility 6: Laugh it Off
Hybrid encounter 7: Curtain of Steel
Hybrid daily 9: Victorious Surge
Hybrid utility 10: Defensive Resurgence
Hybrid encounter 13: Storm of Blades (replaces Great Cleave)
Hybrid daily 15: Serpent Dance Strike (replaces Comeback Strike)
Hybrid utility 16: Spur the Cycle
Hybrid encounter 17: Vorpal Tornado (replaces Sweeping Blow)
Hybrid daily 19: Winter Phoenix Rage (replaces Serpent Dance Strike)
Hybrid utility 22: Inspired Resurgence
Hybrid encounter 23: Paralyzing Strike (replaces Curtain of Steel)
Hybrid daily 25: Relentless Assailant (replaces Silver Phoenix Rage)
Hybrid encounter 27: Hurricane of Blades (replaces Paralyzing Strike)
Hybrid daily 29: Crimson Phoenix Rage (replaces Victorious Surge)

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Dwarven Spiritmail +6, Vorpal Glaive +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Gauntlets of Destruction (paragon tier), Horned Helm (epic tier), Scarab of Invulnerability +6, Ring of the Dragonborn Emperor (paragon tier), Ring of Free Time (epic tier), Vengeance Sash (epic tier), Strongheart Tattoo (epic tier)

Kaerius
2009-10-04, 11:48 PM
PS: At lvl 30, with the gear I gave him(which might be suboptimal), when using storm of blades, assuming all hit, he would deal out 196+14d4 damage when raging, any damage bonus from crimson phoenix ommitted. Also, any 4s on the d4s would deal OB damage(roll again and add result), because of the vorpal glaive.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-05, 04:31 AM
Anyone else figured out you can cheese out a really nasty defender/controler/striker combo with this?
I'm not sure why you're combining barbarian and fighter for this, though.

A fighter can start "controlling" people from level one using Polearm Momentum and Footwork Lure.


Anyone else found any really stinky cheese builds?
I'm not convinced that this is stinky cheese. Sure, it does a lot of damage at level 30, but so do several other combos, and more importantly: most of the game isn't played at level 30.

Standard cheese in 4E includes reckless/bloodclaw combos, orbizard stunlocking, half elf of doom, and the crit fisher. All of that gets downright nasty at level 11 or 12.

NPCMook
2009-10-05, 05:40 AM
I'm not sure why you're combining barbarian and fighter for this, though.

A fighter can start "controlling" people from level one using Polearm Momentum and Footwork Lure.


I'm not convinced that this is stinky cheese. Sure, it does a lot of damage at level 30, but so do several other combos, and more importantly: most of the game isn't played at level 30.

Standard cheese in 4E includes reckless/bloodclaw combos, orbizard stunlocking, half elf of doom, and the crit fisher. All of that gets downright nasty at level 11 or 12.

You forgot the ignore me Swordmage

Kaerius
2009-10-05, 11:43 AM
I'm not sure why you're combining barbarian and fighter for this, though.

A fighter can start "controlling" people from level one using Polearm Momentum and Footwork Lure.


I'm not convinced that this is stinky cheese. Sure, it does a lot of damage at level 30, but so do several other combos, and more importantly: most of the game isn't played at level 30.

Standard cheese in 4E includes reckless/bloodclaw combos, orbizard stunlocking, half elf of doom, and the crit fisher. All of that gets downright nasty at level 11 or 12.

Yeah this gets nasty at 12 too. Footwork lure isn't nearly as good control as slapping people 2-3 squares and knocking them prone, and polearm momentum is a paragon feat. You could do the combo as an at-will, but not an OA as pure fighter, with tide of iron, shield/spear.

And I think the only other hybrid option to get that push is warlord's opening shove(which could be interesting too I guess).

Barbarian is primarily there for the push 1 compatible with 2h at-will, this is what makes the combo go. That it adds some crazy damage output from lvl 13 onward is just gravy.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-05, 11:49 AM
Yeah this gets nasty at 12 too. Footwork lure isn't nearly as good control as slapping people 2-3 squares and knocking them prone, and polearm momentum is a paragon feat.
Footwork Lure is slapping people 2-3 squares and knocking them prone, and Polearm Momentum is a heroic feat. You may be thinking of Polearm Gamble, which is different.


You forgot the ignore me Swordmage
I ignored it :smalltongue:

Seriously though, link plz?

Kaerius
2009-10-05, 12:20 PM
What feats/items are you turning shift 1/slide 1 into slap with?(EDIT: nvm, rushing cleats) And my bad on polearm momentum, I got it wrong because I kept thinking of it as paragon feat, due to my builds needing the +1/all attribute boost to get it.

(EDIT AGAIN) PS: The main difference then becomes that the pure fighter ends up with the enemy in an adjacent square, while my build pushes it 4 squares away(with paragon path and cleats included).

Yakk
2009-10-05, 12:30 PM
Is the ignore me swordmage like the thunderball swordmage? (Use Swordburst arcane admixtured with Thunder to get at-will 1d6+large close burst 3 attack, then mix in White Lotus feats to make it painfully punishing?)