PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 Unarmed Doppelganger Warshaper



ProjectSiolence
2009-10-05, 12:44 AM
Starting a new campaign soon, and was trying some kind of unarmed build but totally not sure how best to go about it, so here we go.
14 lvls allowed
Doppelganger Monk 4 / Warshaper 4 / Fighter 2 (only for feats)
Feats (+2 Flaws): Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Improved Martial Arts

So now I'm a melee unarmed combatant who can stretch to attack adjacent squares, with warshaping enlarge the size of my natural attack (unarmed fist) that also counts as a magical weapon from Ki. Feats to bump it up more along with Vows because I want emphasis on him being solely relied on himself and nothing else. Coming up short on other feats and haven't figured out the number of them I'll start with (minimum I'm aware of are the ones i choose).

What stats take priority here? And any comments on how to improve this build is much appreciated.

BTW Any of the 3.0 to 3.5 books are ok to use as we have them all. I also see many people warning away from Monks but unless I get there Unarmed Strike my fist isn't a natural weapon and not subjected to the Warshaper I'm going after. This chars trick is around punching from a short distance with a expanding fist (his tag line "Wrist with the functionality of a trailer hitch, 'cause when you get hit with its load its a *****, master of the expanding fist!"). Being able to turn into any humanoid (Raptorians for flight, Human Royalty to sow distrust and get out of sticky situations) seems really useful, and telepathy is, though mechanically not useful, were big role players so very useful there.

Progression after that, I don't know, maybe War Hulk for strength or Mindspy to take full advantage of my telepathy and continued reliance on just my character and nothing else. Thanks again so much in advance.

Thurbane
2009-10-05, 12:52 AM
14 lvls allowed
Doppelganger Monk 4 / Warshaper 4 / Fighter 2 (only for feats)
That's ECL 18, including racial HD and LA. Are you using LA buyoff?

ProjectSiolence
2009-10-05, 12:57 AM
How do you come up with 18 if I may ask? And we are using a lvl adjustment buy off of 4 lvls so we really only start at lvl 10 (Unearthed), what have I done wrong?

arguskos
2009-10-05, 01:05 AM
Effective Character Level is Level Adjustment plus Hit Dice. Dopplegangers have 4 HD and 4 LA, meaning their ECL is 8. You calculate levels by taking the ECL and adding class levels. At level 14, you should have 6 class levels, plus your 8 ECL. :smallwink:

Gelondil
2009-10-05, 01:07 AM
You forgot to count racial HD requirement for the doppelganger.


Racial Hit Dice: A doppelganger begins with four levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +4, and Will +4.

I'm trying to work around a similar issue for my character in a new game I'm playing. 9 HD, 7 LA kills character class options :(

edit - bah, beaten to the punch!!

PinkysBrain
2009-10-05, 01:07 AM
Self reliance means flexibility. You can't deal with flight, you can't deal with ranged combat, you can't deal with traps ... and to be frank, because you chose a 4RHD+4LA race with a +2 strength bonus for a martial character you can't deal with any level appropriate threats even if you can walk up to hit them with your fists.

Now I get it ... you hate magic and magic items, but without those you hugely cut down any potential flexibility. The only remotely playable character with all your requirements and self imposed handicaps IMO is the MoMF (assuming of course your DM is reasonable and gives MoMF wilding).

Dragon #324 has a monk variant with wildshape and the variant ranger with wildshape from unearthed arcana (also in the SRD) would work as well. Combine with any LA+0 race, take at least 7 levels of MoMF and then some warshaper/nature's warrior to taste.

PS. LA buyoff doesn't work like you think it does ... LA+4 is bought off 1 LA at a time at levels 12, 21, 27, 30 ... they just didn't print the epic levels in the table because reasonable people pretend epic doesn't exist.

Salt_Crow
2009-10-05, 01:12 AM
You would do well to go Changeling and take a few levels in Psychic Warrior (plus Tashalatora).

ProjectSiolence
2009-10-05, 01:19 AM
Well I don't hate Magic, I've just never played anything outside of a Sorcerer / Wizard / Druid / Warlock and wanted to go a full 360. Magic is awesome.

Well that leaves me with a Doppelganger 4 / Monk 4 / Warshaper 2 which isn't bad, I'm sure I'll pick the lvls up quickly enough. Flight? Just shape into a Raptorian right? Range? With Monk my speed is greatly increased and my melee is extended from being a Warshaper.

And here is the house rule we used for paying off LA
"ECL, Racial Hit Dice, and Bonus Stat Points: The alternative rule of paying off ECL modifiers as proposed in Unearthed Arcana is employed. A player if choosing a race that has racial hit dice can drop up to four of those racial hit dice. If a player is not playing such a race, and has fewer than 4 racial hit dice, the character gains 1 bonus stat point to be assigned where they wish for each HD fewer than 4 racial hit dice their race has. Example: Joe Schmoe human has 0 racial hit dice, a difference of 4, he would receive 4 additional stat points upon character generation."

ProjectSiolence
2009-10-05, 01:41 AM
That's why I figured I couldn't just go with a fighter instead of a monk, I needed his unarmed strike to benefit from the effects my feats would have on my unarmed strikes. The Warshaper says something about increasing the size of a natural weapon if one is already present, being a Monk I have one for the purpose of effecting it via size increase. Thanks though, these are the questions I kinda needed asked so as to make sure this all follows through correctly. Still taking suggestions on feats / skills / other classes/ etc...

Gelondil
2009-10-05, 01:52 AM
Sorry, I think I ninja-deleted my post on ya... I kinda glossed past the fact that you already knew unarmed and natural attacks were not the same thing...

From what I had seen when I did what you described, I found the monk levels ended up being pointless if you have the ability to shapeshift. Figher levels give full bab & the increased damage from higher levels of monk don't stack with claws.

One more option you should check out...

Fist of the Forest (complete champion) works very well with VoP and gives a monk alternative. Full BAB

PinkysBrain
2009-10-05, 02:36 AM
"ECL, Racial Hit Dice, and Bonus Stat Points: The alternative rule of paying off ECL modifiers as proposed in Unearthed Arcana is employed. A player if choosing a race that has racial hit dice can drop up to four of those racial hit dice. If a player is not playing such a race, and has fewer than 4 racial hit dice, the character gains 1 bonus stat point to be assigned where they wish for each HD fewer than 4 racial hit dice their race has. Example: Joe Schmoe human has 0 racial hit dice, a difference of 4, he would receive 4 additional stat points upon character generation."
If any melee character makes even remotely good use of this he will outdamage you to such an extent you might as well buy pompoms and take up a career as cheerleader :) You just can't swallow +3 LA on doppelganger when all it gets you is +2 strength, some extra reach and a size increase for your attacks ... well you can, but I don't think it will do justice to your character concept.

Uin
2009-10-05, 05:28 AM
Whenever anyone wants to be a Doggelganger I bring out some stock advice:

Changeling + Cabinet Trickster (RoE)

Cabinet Trickster gives you Mind Reading, Mind Effecting debuffs, 6/level skill points and humanoid shapechanging. Probably better than a RHD and LA Doppelganger with most of the same shenanigans. Combine with Mindspy and Warshaper to taste.

Sliver
2009-10-05, 05:49 AM
Well I don't hate Magic, I've just never played anything outside of a Sorcerer / Wizard / Druid / Warlock and wanted to go a full 360. Magic is awesome

I.. You.. Huh??:smallconfused::smallconfused:

PinkysBrain
2009-10-05, 05:56 AM
Try this ...

Human afflicted Lycanthrope (Dire Ape), 0 LA, 1 RHD, 74000 XP (LA buyoff at ECL 7 & 10). The RHD is Dire Animal, so it's 0 BAB but all good saves. In ape form you have claw, bite and rend ... which you can all use as secondary weapons with your monk unarmed strikes. Then do something like monk 2/Lion Totem barbarian 1/fighter 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshaper 3 ...

You now have a pouncing dire ape with wis and con to AC, kicking, clawing, biting and rending ... oh and if you take INA(unarmed strike) and use warshaper to increase your unarmed strike as well your unarmed strikes are dealing damage as a gargantuan creature. That's how you build a beatstick ... if all you can really do is hit stuff, you better make sure you hit it hard.

Tokiko Mima
2009-10-05, 08:53 AM
Whenever anyone wants to be a Doggelganger I bring out some stock advice:

Changeling + Cabinet Trickster (RoE)

Cabinet Trickster gives you Mind Reading, Mind Effecting debuffs, 6/level skill points and humanoid shapechanging. Probably better than a RHD and LA Doppelganger with most of the same shenanigans. Combine with Mindspy and Warshaper to taste.

QFT

Doppleganger is a special case, where there is almost no reason at all, ever, for a PC to choose them as a race. This is because you can precisely replicate virtually everything they do with a smaller amount of PrC class levels without the drawbacks of their substantially larger RHD+LA.

ProjectSiolence
2009-10-05, 08:56 AM
Good stuff here, thanks again everyone. Where would I find this Cabinet Trickster?

Uin
2009-10-05, 09:17 AM
Good stuff here, thanks again everyone. Where would I find this Cabinet Trickster?Race of Eberron. For more cool changeling stuff, check out the Recaster class in said book. One of the few examples of a worthwhile lost caster level in 3.5e.

Tokiko Mima
2009-10-05, 09:21 AM
Races of Eberron, pg. 139. Entry requirements are one racial feat (also found in RoE), and you need 8 ranks of disguise. Fortunately, Warshaper has the Disguise skill as a class skill, so you're set there.

Tavar
2009-10-05, 09:57 AM
Again, if you have access to Tome of Battle, Unarmed Swordsage gets everything that the monk gives you that you want, plus some neat abilities. Really, I highly suggest using it.

Bagelz
2009-10-05, 03:55 PM
yeah, if you wanted to qualify for warshaper i think a lycanthrope with a huge +str would be better than doppleganger, also the shifter race qualifies with NO LA (so you could be a shifter, and take a better +LA template)

PinkysBrain
2009-10-05, 03:58 PM
Lycanthrope is incredibly incredibly good with the "drop 4 RHD" houserule ...

ProjectSiolence
2009-10-08, 03:30 PM
Thanks again everyone, took a lot of this to heart, here's what I wound up with (and have till Friday to smooth this out).

Changeling: Fighter 4 / Warshaper 3 / Fist of the Forrest 3

Abilites: Str 28 / Dex 16 / Con 20 / Int 14 / Wis 15 / Cha 12

Feats: Great ortitude, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack.

I still get 5 Exalted Feats and any one other Feat of my choice. Any ideas? Saw something about being blessed by a Hippo that amused me and would add to the ridiculousness that s/he is. After I finish out Warshaper, what next? Would a Dervish be empowering?