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karnokoto
2009-10-05, 06:32 AM
I'm considering rolling a monk for a friend's new 3.5 campaign.

I've been playing DnD for a few years, but I still consider myself a newbie to the game- theres lots of stuff I still don't understand, and I'm not one of those people who knows the PHB inside and out. And I've never played a monk.

The group and I have been talking about the kind of characters we'll make, and everyone seems to be leaning on the shadier side of the spectrum- the kind of adventuring party that will shoot first ask questions later, start bar fights and be JUST decent enough people to not stab each other in the back while we sleep. Keep in mind this is not an evil party, just a chaotic party.
I know monks have to be lawful, and I don't have much experience with lawful characters (especially not lawful neutral).

My question is this:
How do I rationalize playing a lawful neutral monk in a party of smash-n-grab mercenaries?

Note: The DM is new and I don't like to be a douchebag regardless of whos DMing, so I don't want to be a munchkin and find a loophole or something. Is there a way to do this logically or should I just give up and roll a barb
(a favourite class) or something?
Thanks guys, I wasn't sure who else to ask here :)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-05, 06:45 AM
You could always go for Lawful Evil.

Temet Nosce
2009-10-05, 06:49 AM
Fortunately even with the mess the alignment system is, there's an easy out. LN isn't described as being absolutely required to worship all laws, just their own.

Now, if you've built a character who is thoroughly convinced of the rightness of strong government and everyone in their place then you might have an issue.

AmberVael
2009-10-05, 06:51 AM
If you're worried, you could always just ask the DM if he/she could remove the Lawful requirement.
I mean, mechanically it won't really make any difference, if you ask the DM and the DM is fine with it, then there's no problem and no munchkin behavior.

Fluff wise, it makes a little sense to have the lawful requirement there for a character who has been trained in a monastery and with such strict regulations and regimens and stuff, but... not everyone in such a situation turns out lawful. What is more, you don't really have to be in that situation to gain monk abilities, do you? What about wandering masters? Self taught (it had to have some from somewhere, after all)?

There are plenty of reasons for a nonlawful monk. So just ask. Nothing wrong with it.

karnokoto
2009-10-05, 06:56 AM
Fortunately even with the mess the alignment system is, there's an easy out. LN isn't described as being absolutely required to worship all laws, just their own.

Now, if you've built a character who is thoroughly convinced of the rightness of strong government and everyone in their place then you might have an issue.

I haven't even thought about personality or any of that yet, its all up in the air at the moment.
But cool! I wasn't aware thats the way Lawful Neutral worked.
It might be a bit of work trying to figure out the fine line between, say, relieving an overburdened merchant of uneeded wares and robbing him blind, but I suppose I could do it.

I just really don't want to be one of those stick in the mud characters that ruins the group's fun just because he can't justify doing something because of his alignment.

Dunno...any suggestions?


Fluff wise, it makes a little sense to have the lawful requirement there for a character who has been trained in a monastery and with such strict regulations and regimens and stuff, but... not everyone in such a situation turns out lawful. What is more, you don't really have to be in that situation to gain monk abilities, do you? What about wandering masters? Self taught (it had to have some from somewhere, after all)?

Thats a really good point, thanks!
I'll definetely bring it up with the DM and see what he thinks about it- as someone whos new to the whole thing he has this bad habit of giving the PCs all of their character goals within the first few sessions so I won't press it too hard lol

I'm really impressed with the replies, thanks a ton guys!

SparkMandriller
2009-10-05, 06:59 AM
You realise lawful characters can still break laws, right? Just don't break your own rules and maybe be a little methodical about things and you're good to go.

Make a monk who's devoted to proving their fighting style superior, or something. Be calm and relaxed and honest, and murder anyone who challenges you. You're hangin' out with those other guys because they get into a lot of fights, so you can continue proving yourself.
It might be tending a little towards lawful evil, but hey, the rest of your group seems to be!

Master_Rahl22
2009-10-05, 07:04 AM
The best suggestion is to ask the DM to remove the Lawful restriction. It really has no bearing on game play other than give demons/devils (whichever the chaotic ones are) a chance to use Protection from Law.

The other alternative is to make a fast moving, unarmored, unarmed guy from another class that doesn't have alignment restrictions and just call him a Monk. Psychic Warrior from the SRD is great, as is the Unarmed Swordsage variant in ToB. Heck, even a Fighter who spends his bonus feats on Improved Unarmed Strike and similar stuff can be passable if you have access to items and PrCs that incread unarmed damage.

Temet Nosce
2009-10-05, 07:09 AM
I haven't even thought about personality or any of that yet, its all up in the air at the moment.
But cool! I wasn't aware thats the way Lawful Neutral worked.
It might be a bit of work trying to figure out the fine line between, say, relieving an overburdened merchant of uneeded wares and robbing him blind, but I suppose I could do it.

I just really don't want to be one of those stick in the mud characters that ruins the group's fun just because he can't justify doing something because of his alignment.

Dunno...any suggestions?

You could be the one robbing him blind and still be lawful. Perhaps he offended your personal code, or perhaps you are simply indifferent about it. A LN character might be a librarian concerned with the preservation and cataloging of knowledge, but perfectly ok with breaking every typical human law to acquire their books. Or a dedicated ascetic who tried to keep themselves pure from temptations, but who cared not at all about others actions.

Simply put, think out your character beforehand and reason out a personality that fits with the group.

Glass Mouse
2009-10-05, 07:27 AM
You seem to be making a common mistake (in lack of a better word) in your character-creation. In general, you should consider alignment AFTER deciding on a personality.
However, this is pretty difficult when you're starting with an alignment-requirement class, so I'll just throw out something constructive instead:

Lawful-types, brainstorm (Warning: I usually play Chaotic, so these are not play-tested):
...believes strongly in the legal authority of rulers, and will support them whenever possible.
...lives firmly by the "survival of the fittest" rule. Whoever is strongest has the right. Just be very consistent, especially when it's not to the monk's advantage.
...abides by his own code of "worthy person, not worthy person". Could go by race, abilities, social class, abilities (e.g. magic-users), gender, etc.
...Look to RL political ideologies. Have your monk follow one determinedly. Actually, now I want to play a communist monk :smalltongue:
...is insanely religious. Pick any diety.
...fiercely protects something. Could be religious symbols (of one or maybe all dieties), booze, knowledge, people's freedom (would work well with the party), women, beautiful things, etc.
...has a very strict code of behavior for himself. Couldn't care less what others do; they are beneath his status, anyway.
...Etc. You can probably make up many cooler ideas yourself :smallsmile:

Vangor
2009-10-05, 07:30 AM
Lawful comprises Discipline, Rule of Law, Structure, and Tradition, with all of those facets being distinct from one another. Thus, a Monk is highly disciplined and learned from a long-standing order, but may be unconcerned or against laws of a land. Being Lawful Evil will probably work the best since Evil will allow you to exert your strength and skills on others without concern; a simple example is maybe you do not imbibe alcohol, but you do not hesitate to steal alcohol.

SoD
2009-10-05, 07:30 AM
Depending on what level you're starting at, you could play an ex-monk, and level up in anything else (barbarian, maybe?), or PrC up the wazoo! Monks loose nothing when they change alignments, except the ability to level up in monk. And most PrC's for monks don't require you to be lawful.

Project_Mayhem
2009-10-05, 07:31 AM
Maybe try riffing with the idea of a martial artist who is dedicated to becoming the best and most disciplined fighter he can. Other concerns, such as ethics and laws and such, are irrelevent to him unless they directly advance his goal. He is lawful because of how rigerously he disciplines himself - several hours training every morning and one full day a week, his mind is always focused entirely on his goal etc.

Khanderas
2009-10-05, 07:54 AM
I know monks have to be lawful, and I don't have much experience with lawful characters (especially not lawful neutral).

My question is this:
How do I rationalize playing a lawful neutral monk in a party of smash-n-grab mercenaries?
I don't think there is a problem. Lawful doesnt have to mean he follows the law.
It is more that he is... what the chaotic people deride as predictible. He has a code and follows it instead of deciding on the spur of the moment if he will kiss somone or kill her. This way can be a pragmatic view of might makes right (though that makes him lean toward evil I guess) or the ends justify the means (sounds like neutral to me atleast)

Well thats one interpretation of it anyway.

If he objects morally to the group, then he can still be following them, due to a grander goal that needs them to group up or as simple as with him helping them, they will help him on his goals.

hamishspence
2009-10-05, 07:57 AM
while Lawful does not mean obsessive-compulsive, this is one aspect of behaviour that can be somewhat Lawful in style.

A person who has their routine, and sticks absolutely to it, who lays their equipment out in neat lines, and insists on everything they themselves do being done in this kind of orderly fashion, can be pretty Lawful.

karnokoto
2009-10-05, 08:00 AM
You seem to be making a common mistake (in lack of a better word) in your character-creation. In general, you should consider alignment AFTER deciding on a personality.

Great post, and thank you very much for all the ideas and suggestions- they'll help a lot when I start putting my monk's moral code down on paper (otherwise I'll forget and just be spoony)! <3

I do want to say one thing though-
There aren't any rules (even if there were, pff!) on what comes into your head first when you think up a new character- so its not really a mistake, although I know thats not really the point you wanted to make.
I mean, me personally, as an artist- if I can't make my character look cool in my head, theres no way I'll have fun playing them. Their appearance is the first thing I think up, followed by alignment, then personality, then background/build.
Theres no right way to do it :)

Again, thanks for all the ideas and suggestions!

Asgardian
2009-10-05, 08:46 AM
Try the Chaos monk from Dragon magazine http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf

YOu can be chaotic and its pretty much has stronger class features from top to bottom

Things like Erratic Advance when you daze your opponent on a charge and
Displacing stance which gives you a 20% miss chance at level 7 for .5 class levels rounds can be handy

Roderick_BR
2009-10-05, 11:21 AM
You could try to be the "sane" guy in the group. Without you, the group falls appart, not knowing what to do. They work effectivelly if you let them do their thing, but someone needs to be there to give them direction. In other words, you'll be the group's mental babysitter.

You could RP as being someone constantly annoyed, with awful headaches everytime someone do something stupid, or the awkward person trying to make everyone listen to you. Your call.

I've done something like that once. After a while, I was the person everyone turned to, when they needed to know what to do next. The other players had a pretty good idea of everything, that was just how they rp-ed their characters.

jiriku
2009-10-05, 11:35 AM
Historically, monks withdrew to their monasteries so they escape wordly distractions and focus on faith. They used personal discipline and routine to develop spiritually. Those who traveled the world often did so as a test of faith, seeking to expose themselves to wordly temptation to harden their discipline against such a life.

This is an easy compass for you to follow. Your devotion to Lawfulness is internally oriented. This is a crucial distinction between you and other characters with lawful codes like knights or paladins. You have your disciplines, your routines, your personal sacrifices and rules, and you live by them even when the world tries to distract you. The behavior of others is quite frankly not your problem. Local politics and government are likewise not your problem, although you should respect authority. These things are distractions! Be aware of them, understand them, and know that your way is better, but don't try to change the world; its nature is to be imperfect. Get too involved and you'll lose your focus. Besides, everyone comes to enlightment their own way, so trying to mold your friends into your own image might cause them to become more lost.

Yora
2009-10-05, 12:30 PM
I think it could turn out quite well, as long as the motivations of the characters go along well together. As a lawful character with a bunch of chaotic ones, you should clearly feel highly superior than them. You might not like them, but as long as they are useful to acomplish the goal, you can cope with them.
If they get in trouble, that's their very own problem. You're not their nanny. And if they try to get funny with you, like taking your stuff while your meditating, drop lines like "If your hand touches my bag, I'll break every single bone, one by onw" without turning around. :smallbiggrin:

Problems arise if their actions actively offend your character. But if he only cares for his own discipline and does not care if the rest of the world falls apart, I'd say he can live with most things they do. Or hand out some physical punishment if they become a burden to him.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-05, 12:40 PM
Just take Dman's advice from his Monk handbook: Take 1-6 levels of Monk, then Multiclass into a better PrC and never look back. As long as the PrC doesn't require a Lawful alignment, your alignment can shift freely and you never suffer for it (because Monk sucks after 6th level).