Sargeras In Dresden Files

[ArlEammon]

Sargeras has been summoned by a Dresden Wizard. After being informed about the local layout of the planet, Sargeras lands in the Heartlands of America. Harry Dresden finds out about him. Sargeras has conquered Azeroth as of Warcraft 3, taking posession of the Well of Eternity. Now the Councils can hold the Burning Legion back from Earth, but Sargeras was still summoned to Earth himself by Wizards.

Edit-
How powerful would Sargeras be against the big bads? Upper tier of Dresden verse?

[Aidan305]

This is a verses thread, yes?

I'd probably give it to Sargeras. Dresden is powerful, yes, but he has gone up against god-like beings before and lost, and that was on his own turf where he was effectively omniscient. Sargeras is capable of choosing the territory in this situation, forcing Dresden to come to him.

[ArlEammon]

This is a verses thread, yes?

I'd probably give it to Sargeras. Dresden is powerful, yes, but he has gone up against god-like beings before and lost, and that was on his own turf where he was effectively omniscient. Sargeras is capable of choosing the territory in this situation, forcing Dresden to come to him.

Hmmm.... How would Sargeras work against Mab?

[The Glyphstone]

If he crosses over to the Nevernever, he's hosed. If he stays in the mortal world, he'll probably win. Mab's power looks awesome compared to everyone else when we see her in the 'real' world, but it's pretty clear that she's vastly more powerful on HER home turf.

[ArlEammon]

What happens if Sargeras decides to drink all the water in the Well of Eternity?

[The Glyphstone]

Not a clue, I've been rolling untrained checks in Knowledge: Warcraft Lore up to this point, aided only by the circumstance bonuses I get from playing WoW and browsing WoWWiki.

[Athaniar]

I don't see anything proving that drinking from the Well of Eternity makes you more powerful. If it did, someone would probably have done it by now. I think it just restores your mana.

[Flarp]

Sargeras’ flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras' body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to fifty degrees in every direction for one thousand miles. The effect on natural climates can be devastating.


And that's one of his LESSER abilities. The guy can plunge a sword into a planet and shatter the whole damn thing.

Sargeras is beyond BBEG. Sargeras is like the demonic offspring of Morgoth and an army of World Devastators. ON FIRE (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IncendiaryExponent).


I don't see anything proving that drinking from the Well of Eternity makes you more powerful. If it did, someone would probably have done it by now. I think it just restores your mana.

Mount Hyjal game mechanics notwithstanding, unless you've achieved considerable magical power (think Azshara-esque levels), merely coming in CONTACT with waters of Eternity kills you. Instantly. Most likely, you're painfully reborn as a mana wraith or something. I'm not entirely sure if they're actually undead or just congealed mana.

If you DO have enough power, drinking the waters literally makes you a fount of arcane energy. Spellcasters could draw mana from you, as a source. Not a finite amount, as Mana Drain does, but an infinite amount of mana, constantly expounded by your very being.

Unless, of course, gastrointestinal processes apply to the stuff, in which case the above applies until your next tinkle.

[ArlEammon]

And that's one of his LESSER abilities. The guy can plunge a sword into a planet and shatter the whole damn thing.

Sargeras is beyond BBEG. Sargeras is like the demonic offspring of Morgoth and an army of World Devastators. ON FIRE (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IncendiaryExponent).



Mount Hyjal game mechanics notwithstanding, unless you've achieved considerable magical power (think Azshara-esque levels), merely coming in CONTACT with waters of Eternity kills you. Instantly. Most likely, you're painfully reborn as a mana wraith or something. I'm not entirely sure if they're actually undead or just congealed mana.

If you DO have enough power, drinking the waters literally makes you a fount of arcane energy. Spellcasters could draw mana from you, as a source. Not a finite amount, as Mana Drain does, but an infinite amount of mana, constantly expounded by your very being.

Unless, of course, gastrointestinal processes apply to the stuff, in which case the above applies until your next tinkle.

In other words, Sargeras becomes a god of magic?

[KnightDisciple]

Sargeras is a Titan. A straight-up deity-esque figure. A Satan analogue.

Harry's screwed.

[Krrth]

Sargeras is a Titan. A straight-up deity-esque figure. A Satan analogue.

Harry's screwed.

It would depend on which universes rules are being used. If it's the Dresdenverse, all Harry has to do is get him to step into a binding circle.

For that matter if Sargeras counts as an Outsider, and I see no reason he shouldn't, he loses.

[Jade_Tarem]

What happens if someone on the Black Council enacts the Darkhallow as counter?

For that matter, how did he get past the Gatekeeper? I know that Rashid isn't godly-powerful, but he supposedly has some method of keeping this from happening. Or are we just assuming that he managed it somehow?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Sargeras has been defeated by a mortal sorceress before. Admittedly, the guardian of Tirisfall was not entirely mortal but essentially she was the same position for her world as the Gatekeeper is for Dresdenverse.


Of course, we know Rashid can blast Harry to bits whenever he feels like it so Harry would lose against Sargeras anyway.

[ArlEammon]

Sargeras has been defeated by a mortal sorceress before. Admittedly, the guardian of Tirisfall was not entirely mortal but essentially she was the same position for her world as the Gatekeeper is for Dresdenverse.


Of course, we know Rashid can blast Harry to bits whenever he feels like it so Harry would lose against Sargeras anyway.

On the other hand, the being defeated was not Sargeras, but an avatar.

[Jade_Tarem]

On the other other hand, since God is more or less a character in the Dresden Files, He might have something to say about Sargeras starting Armageddon early... :smalltongue:

[ArlEammon]

On the other other hand, since God is more or less a character in the Dresden Files, He might have something to say about Sargeras starting Armageddon early... :smalltongue:

By act of OP, God is doing Godly things while everything else is going on.

[Krrth]

By act of OP, God is doing Godly things while everything else is going on.

*shrug*

Then the Archangels, Faerie Queens, assorted other Gods and Goddesses, plus various beasties get involved.

Getting Dresden involved in the fight pulls in the Queens, whom have a vested interest in him.

Incidentally, how can an Omniscient and Omnipotent deity be doing other things?

[ArlEammon]

*shrug*

Then the Archangels, Faerie Queens, assorted other Gods and Goddesses, plus various beasties get involved.

Getting Dresden involved in the fight pulls in the Queens, whom have a vested interest in him.

Incidentally, how can an Omniscient and Omnipotent deity be doing other things?

Well, on another forum I'm doing this exact same V.S Thread. It just doesn't seem practical to have God involved in the OP.

And I can't talk about God being involved in this thread since it's against real world religion rules of the forum.

[Krrth]

Well, on another forum I'm doing this exact same V.S Thread. It just doesn't seem practical to have God involved in the OP.

And I can't talk about God being involved in this thread since it's against real world religion rules of the forum.

That's going to make it hard to continue the conversation, since a large chuck of one of the combatants powers comes from said process.

[ArlEammon]

That's going to make it hard to continue the conversation, since a large chuck of one of the combatants powers comes from said process.

If it's a Crusader or angel then fine it's o.k I guess.

[Krrth]

If it's a Crusader or angel then fine it's o.k I guess.

Let me try this another way: there are at least four separate power groups vying for Harry, and he's gotten power from all four.

1) Heaven, in the form of Michael, the Knights, the Archangel Uriel, and Soulfire.

2)Hell, in the form of Laschiel, Lash, Deidre, and Hellfire.

3)Faerie, in that Harry has rank in the Fae courts, has his own faerie godmother who has been oath bound to protect him, his own following of faerie subjects, and a standing offer to become the Winter Knight.

4)The Vampires, especially now since

his Daughter

has been kidnapped.

The Archive is also a rather nasty player, and she likes and trusts Harry.

Plus Mouse. Can't fight the Mouse.

[Jade_Tarem]

Michael is pretty much a non-combatant at this point, but Sanya would probably chip in, and Murphy might be persuaded to take up Fidelacchius.

Remember that Suzan isn't with the Red Court - she's with the Fellowship of St. Giles, and Thomas isn't as helpful as he used to be.

I agree with the rest of the general sentiment though. There are several baddies and superbeings from the Dresdenverse that could trump pretty much all of Warcraft's stuff.

Also, if this is a global threat, it's likely that each freeholding lord, including that dragon from the third book, Drakul, Monoc Securities, etc, would team up for the Sargeras takedown.

Really, though, I'm having a hard time seeing Sargeras take on Uriel or the Faerie Queens. I mean, Mother Winter (The Queen who Was, not Mab) could probably just unmake him.

[Tavar]

4)The Vampires, especially now since

his Daughter

has been kidnapped.

Wait. What? When did this happen? Can you give a book title? I really don't remember any of this.

[Jade_Tarem]

Wait. What? When did this happen? Can you give a book title? I really don't remember any of this.

It was a leak at Butcher's website, presumably by Butcher himself, concerning the next book to be published, something along the lines of...

I answered the phone, and Susan Rodriguez said, "They've taken our daughter."


Of course, she doesn't specify who "our" means. I think it's jumping to conclusions to assume it's Harry's daughter too (assuming this isn't just a rumor), but you never know.

[Dragonus45]

ZOMFAGA, i hadnt heard that one yet. LIKE HOLEY FRAKING RAPTORJESUS. Well anyways i think while harry himself should be able to handle this. what with his whole instapwn outsiders think he has going for him But really even if he couldn't the rest of the dresdenverse has the ability to beat the living... fire out of him. Uriel is much more subtle about his fighting, but the rest of the Archs would show up in force.

Here's a thought, would Murph take up the sword if the world was about to reach apocalypse levels of doom and gloom. Im pretty sure she would, and that that's whats going to happen in a few books. But i would be interested in what other people think.

[Krrth]

It was a leak at Butcher's website, presumably by Butcher himself, concerning the next book to be published, something along the lines of...

I answered the phone, and Susan Rodriguez said, "They've taken our daughter."


Of course, she doesn't specify who "our" means. I think it's jumping to conclusions to assume it's Harry's daughter too (assuming this isn't just a rumor), but you never know.



The general assumption on the Butcherboards seems to be that it is Harry's daughter. Since that's the case, it probably isn't. Or it is. Mr Butcher is on record as saying when he writes the books, one thing he keeps foremost is "How can I make Harry's life worse without killing him.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Regarding the setup up, while Harry is out of his league there's hosts of powers that would take exception to Sargeras just showing up screwing up everyone's plans. In rough order, the Almighty Himself, Marcone, Satan himself, the Archangels, the Fallen, Mab, Titania, hoary old gods woken up by the event, Dragons, assort eldritch abominations and vanilla demons, the Black Council, the White Council, the Vampire Courts, the Knights of the Cross...... oh yeah and the mortals should this get out of hand.

And regarding the spoiler. Too easy, gotta be a trick.

[Ceridan]

Let me try this another way: there are at least four separate power groups vying for Harry, and he's gotten power from all four.

1) Heaven, in the form of Michael, the Knights, the Archangel Uriel, and Soulfire.

2)Hell, in the form of Laschiel, Lash, Deidre, and Hellfire.

3)Faerie, in that Harry has rank in the Fae courts, has his own faerie godmother who has been oath bound to protect him, his own following of faerie subjects, and a standing offer to become the Winter Knight.

4)The Vampires, especially now since

his Daughter

has been kidnapped.

The Archive is also a rather nasty player, and she likes and trusts Harry.

Plus Mouse. Can't fight the Mouse.

What!?
Harry has a daughter? Have I missed a book somewhere???? The lsat one I read was Turncoat.

[Krrth]

What!?
Harry has a daughter? Have I missed a book somewhere???? The lsat one I read was Turncoat.


The daughter issue was from a teaser Mr. Butcher released a few months ago. The next book is supposed to start with Harry getting a phone call from Susan where she tells him "They've taken our daughter."

It may or may not be his daughter.

[golentan]

I'm going to side with "Sargeras loses" and possibly "And we cannibalize him for cool material components." Sure, he'd do a lot of damage on the way, but good ol' blackstaff can colony drop him, the wardens say "Not Human" and break out the killy magics, while the Denarians hit him with everything they have (it's unclear whether Nicodemus actually died. I don't see him wanting to share his xanatos gambit with a fellow elder evil) the Knights cut off his limbs with swords of doom, the Faerie knight(s) blast him with as yet unclear but obviously epic power levels. Heck, Ivy could also show up with that destructo-stone or whatever it's called.

That is entirely people who I'm confident Dresden can mobilize personally with a few well placed words and phone calls. Of course, now we have the Denarians on the field next to the knights and Dresden, and hopefully someone somewhere has an exit strategy to take them out or run really fast.

[ArlEammon]

Interesting. Would anyone like some snippits from another website and compare/contrast arguments?

[golentan]

Very much. If you'd do a link I'd be interested to see what other people think.

[ArlEammon]

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=155032

There is strong arguments on this website that Sargeras would be an extinction level event.

[golentan]

I'm not buying it. Azeroth fought him with his army off repeatedly, albeit at a terrible cost each time. He's physically strong (hundreds of dragons worth), and flame-y and all, and has some cool spells. But Azeroth's power level seems significantly below the dresdenverse in almost every way.

Sidhe > Elves
Wizards > Any of the mages we see. Honestly.
Normal Human Tech > Dwarven/Gnomish Tech.
Dragons > Dragons.
Trolls/werewolfs > Orcs.
Vampires > Undead.

Yeah, he'd lay waste to cities and ruin the midwest, but especially if the local rules apply he can be stopped by a chalk ring and then waited out. Something like Sargeras would be a call to arms for everyone, and we could mobilize armies and nuke him into oblivion.

And again, I have to emphasize Ivy. She's basically as strong as our 7 billion population combined and has a "Die without Save" blast which she can get off faster than superhuman reflexes can pull triggers. If Sargeras isn't ready from the moment she sees him, he's gone.

What I see as his problem is he isn't strong enough to take some of the toughest hits, but is strong enough to mobilize them. Even with unlimited mana, the guy has limited magical effects compared to the dresden style imagine, improvise, and do system.

[ArlEammon]

I'm not buying it. Azeroth fought him with his army off repeatedly, albeit at a terrible cost each time. He's physically strong (hundreds of dragons worth), and flame-y and all, and has some cool spells. But Azeroth's power level seems significantly below the dresdenverse in almost every way.

Sidhe > Elves
Wizards > Any of the mages we see. Honestly.
Normal Human Tech > Dwarven/Gnomish Tech.
Dragons > Dragons.
Trolls/werewolfs > Orcs.
Vampires > Undead.

Yeah, he'd lay waste to cities and ruin the midwest, but especially if the local rules apply he can be stopped by a chalk ring and then waited out. Something like Sargeras would be a call to arms for everyone, and we could mobilize armies and nuke him into oblivion.

And again, I have to emphasize Ivy. She's basically as strong as our 7 billion population combined and has a "Die without Save" blast which she can get off faster than superhuman reflexes can pull triggers. If Sargeras isn't ready from the moment she sees him, he's gone.

What I see as his problem is he isn't strong enough to take some of the toughest hits, but is strong enough to mobilize them. Even with unlimited mana, the guy has limited magical effects compared to the dresden style imagine, improvise, and do system.

Even from what you've seen from the above link?
I have to disagree with you about the Chalk Ring. The ErlKing was barely stopped by Dresden.

[Soras Teva Gee]

There is strong arguments on this website that Sargeras would be an extinction level event.

Arguably true is successful, but the Dresdenverse is such that the reason you don't have extinction level events is because all the powers balance out and pulling one gets others capable of them mad at you. Harry has aborted what, three apocalypses (Fairy War, Denarian Plague, Darkhallow) and he's just a bit player in things. And if we take Ebenezer McCoy at his word....

Plus its the modern world, and we're entirely capable of causing our own extinction.

[golentan]

Even from what you've seen from the above link?
I have to disagree with you about the Chalk Ring. The ErlKing was barely stopped by Dresden.

Who is a bit player. Ever notice the White Council elders frequently make him look like an incompetent, powerless buffoon in the wonderworking department? And the White council seems to be one of the weaker organizations, at least in the eyes of many of the other accord signatories. I was always under the impression that that particular ward was like trying to armwrestle someone a dozen times your strength, where standard doctrine has you handcuff him to a flagpole and wrap him in cement while he's not looking.

Dresden pulled out all the stops and has a bunch of brute force, but with time to prepare or someone more experienced it would have gone a whole lot easier.

The above link doesn't make any really compelling arguments. They talk about how some people's badass reputation doesn't live up to the hype, and then talk about Sargeras's badass reputation. I know of 3 specific worlds he attacked. One of them keeps sticking it's tongue out at him (Azeroth), one is pretty beat up but still from a mortal perspective intact and mounting the occasional fight (outlands), and one he used as a recruiting zone and failed to accomplish all goals in (Argus). All of them led to him throwing a colossal, impotent hissy fit which failed utterly to further his goals. I know both verses, I like both verses, I think Sargeras would get his keister canned and kicked to the curb. I think he'd blow up chicago, screw the climate, and take a number of mid to high powered characters with him. But none of the top tier. And while the U.S. wouldn't have a fun time of it, the world would survive.