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Drager
2009-10-05, 09:02 AM
This is a build I've been playing with recently and was wondering if anyone could think of any tweaks to improve it, it is a wizard with high defenses capable of solo play. A friend of mine challenged me to make this and so far it has been doing rather well, but any comments are appreciated.

The build focusses on maximising defenses, gaining some healing and dealing with enemies in a methodical manner. Hypnotic Pattern tag teams with Icy Terrain as do several of the other area effect powers to keep enemies grouped for reasonable periods. Thunderwave allows whe bossibility of pushing enemies abck into terrain effects, whilst Magic Missile is the DPR workhorse and Ray of Frost allows kiting of individual monsters (usually the hardest one).

Basic Stats


Race Human
Class Wizard

Level 1 4 8
Str 8 8 8
Con 13 14 14
Dex 11 11 11
Int 20 21 22
Wis 13 13 14
Cha 10 10 10

Feats


Level Feat
1 Ritual Caster
1 Leather Armour Proficiency
1 Staff Fighting
2 Student of Artifice
4 Focussed Expertise (Staff)
6 White Lotus Defence
8 Enlarge Spell
10 White Lotus Riposte

Class Feature
Staff of Defense

Skills
Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, Religion

Important Numbers


Level AC Fort Ref Will To Hit Damage
1 19 12 17 14 + 5 +5
2 22 14 19 16 + 7 +6
3 22 14 19 16 + 7 +6
4 23 16 20 17 +10 +6
5 24 16 20 17 +10 +6
6 25 17 21 18 +12 +7
7 25 17 21 18 +12 +7
8 27 18 23 20 +14 +8
9 27 19 24 21 +14 +8
10 29 20 26 22 +15 +8

Conditional Bonuses
+1 to all and effective +1 To Hit after hitting with an arcane at will against
the target of that power.
Effective +5 to all if attacker more than 5 squares away.
+1 To Hit +2 Damage with Magic Missile

Assumptions
A Defensive staff at Levels 2 and 6.
A Cloak of Distortion at levels 4 and 9.
+1 armour at Level 2 other armours at 5 and 10.

Contributions to Defenses
Human Defense Bonus (+1 to All non-AC)
Staff of Defense (+1 to AC)
Class (+2 Will)
Staff Fighting (+1 to AC and Reflex)
Defensive Staff (+1 All)
Cloak of Distortion (+1/2 All non-AC)

Powers


Level Type Power
1 At Will Thunderwave
1 At Will Ray of Frost
1 At Will Magic Missile
1 Encounter Icy Terrain
1 Daily Wizard's Fury
1 Daily Sleep
2 Utility Shield
2 Utility Faith Healing
3 Encounter Hypnotic Pattern
5 Daily Grasp of the Grave
5 Daily Visions of Avarice
6 Utility Wizards Escape
6 Utility Dimension Door
7 Encounter Twist of Space
9 Daily Ice Storm
9 Daily Animate Dead
10 Utility Arcane Gate
10 Utility Summon Hammerfist Crusher
Equiptment


Level Equiptment
1 Adventurers Kit, Staff

5 +1 Defensive Staff, +2 Summoned Leather Armour, Level 5 Parry Gauntlets,
Level 4 Cloak of Distortion, 1 Potion of Mimicry, 1 Potion of Resistance,
1 Gravespawn Potion, 2 Potions of Healing, 30 gold

10 +2 Defensive Staff, +3 Summoned Drow Mesh Armour, Level 10 Parry Gauntlets,
Level 9 Cloak of Distortion, Bracers of Perfect Shot, Eagle Eye Goggles
Potion of Mimicry, 1 Potion of Resistance, 1 Gravespawn Potion,
4 Potions of Healing, 10 gold

DiscipleofBob
2009-10-05, 09:08 AM
You might consider putting a few points in Strength and taking the armor proficiency feats. I'm not sure if it's the most ideal, but if you want a wizard with high defenses, once you spend the feats there's no disadvantage to wearing, say, plate mail.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-05, 09:14 AM
The problem with staff fighting is that it prevents you from dual wielding implements, which is much better than +1 to AC for a feat. Most of the white lotus line is also less than impressive.

I'm curious why you don't have Enlarge Spell: it's the best wizard feat by a long shot. Since you're solo, you don't even have to worry about hitting allies.

Ray of Frost is not such a great power. Scorching Burst, for instance, is better. Icy Terrain is nice, but is overshadowed by both Grasping Shadows, and Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation (even if you're not actually an orb wizard). Hypno Pattern isn't bad either, but Color Spray is amazing. Dispel Magic is useless by now, and Dimension Door is eclipsed by Wizard's Escape. Animate Dead is fun but highly situational; both Vision of Ruin and Wall of Fire are much better. Arcane Gate is not very useful if you're alone, Illusory Wall would be better.

Your build is lacking resistances. You could e.g. take the resistance level-10 utility power, and a demonskin tattoo, and armor of resistance (much better than summoned armor). And you can check my sig for a list of other useful stuff to carry.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-05, 09:16 AM
You might consider putting a few points in Strength and taking the armor proficiency feats. I'm not sure if it's the most ideal, but if you want a wizard with high defenses, once you spend the feats there's no disadvantage to wearing, say, plate mail.
Yes there is: you no longer add your (impressive) int modifier to your armor class when you wear heavy armor. Even hide armor is not worth the investment for a wizard, because it wastes five ability points on strength and a feat.

Drager
2009-10-05, 09:39 AM
The problem with staff fighting is that it prevents you from dual wielding implements, which is much better than +1 to AC for a feat. Most of the white lotus line is also less than impressive.


The White Lotus ones taken were selcted for a further +1 to defenses and an effective second expertise feat in the form of ennervation. Dual weilding implements just ups damage, I'm not sure that really is better than +1 ac and reflex gained through staff fighting.



I'm curious why you don't have Enlarge Spell: it's the best wizard feat by a long shot. Since you're solo, you don't even have to worry about hitting allies.


I was thinking of enlarge spell and may well switch a White Lotus feat for it.



Ray of Frost is not such a great power. Scorching Burst, for instance, is better.


For kiting enemies? I think not. Ray of Frost slows the enemy making them unable to close with the wizard effectively ensuring victory once you are down to a 1 on 1 fight as long as you keep hitting (or with sensible play as long as you hit 50% of the time).



Icy Terrain is nice, but is overshadowed by both Grasping Shadows, and Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation (even if you're not actually an orb wizard).


Orbmaster's is not as good as icy terrain for slowing down and grouping up enemies as it doesn't produce the difficult terrain. Icy can therefore give you a better excape method. Grasping Shadows is similar to Icy Terrain, and it was a toss up between those two for me, I may yet switch.



Hypno Pattern isn't bad either, but Color Spray is amazing.


Colour Spray is close blast, I'd rather stay ranged, hence the pattern, which also bunches enemies rady to be hit by Icy Terrain or Grasping shadows, keeping them all away from me for a good long while.



Dispel Magic is useless by now

How so?



Dimension Door is eclipsed by Wizard's Escape.


Dimension door is not intended to be his standard memorised spell its his spell for escaping if he ends up locked in a dungeon or somesuch.



Animate Dead is fun but highly situational;


True.



both Vision of Ruin and Wall of Fire are much better.


Probably true, but again animate dead would be used in a situational way, Vision and Wall are essentially just a different way of fufilling the same role as Ice Storm.




Arcane Gate is not very useful if you're alone, Illusory Wall would be better.


I'm sorry, but I can only assume you are not using Arcane Gate very well, it is incredibly powerful. It allows you to with a 5 foot step move 40 squares, nothing can keep up with that, effectively you can kite anything to death, and group sof anythings as well. At the absolute worst the enemies have to split into two groups, effectively halving the difficulty of the encounter.



Your build is lacking resistances. You could e.g. take the resistance level-10 utility power, and a demonskin tattoo, and armor of resistance (much better than summoned armor). And you can check my sig for a list of other useful stuff to carry.

Armour of resistance is good I may take that, only problem is the loss of 1 point of AC. Switching Eagle Eye goggles for teh demonskin tat may work.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-05, 10:07 AM
The White Lotus ones taken were selcted for a further +1 to defenses
Yeah, I get that. My opinion is that with the advent of Arcane Power, there are now so many good wizard feats that spending a feat on +1 to AC is simply not worth it (and even spending a feat on leather armor is no longer the automatic pick that it used to be).

Dual wielding is not just about damage: many implements have useful powers, and you don't seem to be using your Magic Item Dailies for anything yet.



For kiting enemies? I think not. Ray of Frost slows the enemy making them unable to close with the wizard effectively ensuring victory once you are down to a 1 on 1 fight
Scorching burst wasn't intended for kiting (but for killing multiple enemies, in a 5x5 area with enlarge spell). Kiting is a highly effective strategy in 4E, but do you need both ROF and Magic Missile for that?


Grasping Shadows is similar to Icy Terrain
Two points in favor of GS: will defense tends to be lower, and it combos with Thunderwave. One point in favor of IT: prone is better than slowed.


Colour Spray is close blast, I'd rather stay ranged,
If that is your strategy, then yes, you should avoid color spray.


How so?
Dispel magic was highly situational to begin with, and AV2 prints some equipment that does the same thing for a small amount of gp. I would recommend Fog Cloud.



Dimension door is not intended to be his standard memorised spell its his spell for escaping if he ends up locked in a dungeon or somesuch.
Then still, wizard's escape is better since it works 1/encounter.


I'm sorry, but I can only assume you are not using Arcane Gate very well, it is incredibly powerful. It allows you to with a 5 foot step move 40 squares,
If you're using it for kiting, then yes, it becomes very effective. If you're playing on printed adventures (or RPGA) you'll find that almost all battlemaps are too small to effectively use AG. So this depends on your DM.

Drager
2009-10-05, 10:22 AM
Just wanted to say thanks for your comments by the way, forgot to say that last post.


Yeah, I get that. My opinion is that with the advent of Arcane Power, there are now so many good wizard feats that spending a feat on +1 to AC is simply not worth it (and even spending a feat on leather armor is no longer the automatic pick that it used to be).

Dual wielding is not just about damage: many implements have useful powers, and you don't seem to be using your Magic Item Dailies for anything yet.


AC is a primary goal of the build, however, as AC 29 is huge at level 10, it means you are beign hit far less than 50% of the time, which generally translates into more than extra damage. Good point about DIC and dailies, I might just have him carry a second implement and draw it the round he wants to use its daly then drop it until the end of the fight though, that only costs me a minor action so.



Scorching burst wasn't intended for kiting (but for killing multiple enemies, in a 5x5 area with enlarge spell). Kiting is a highly effective strategy in 4E, but do you need both ROF and Magic Missile for that?


Permaslow is huge for kiting purposes which is what RoF provides, the original build didn't include MM, but Wizards Fury is so useful that I had to swap something for it, and that something was SB.



Two points in favor of GS: will defense tends to be lower, and it combos with Thunderwave. One point in favor of IT: prone is better than slowed.


Pretty much what I concluded when making the choice and why it comes down as close IMHO. I may change as I said. :).



Dispel magic was highly situational to begin with, and AV2 prints some equipment that does the same thing for a small amount of gp. I would recommend Fog Cloud.

Then still, wizard's escape is better since it works 1/encounter.


I didn't spot the AV2 equipment I will switch out then.

The problem with wizards escape is I can't use it unless I'm getting hit so when I want to teleport and there are no enemies around I'm screwed. I may well retrain to Wizards Escape at level 10 when I get Arcane Gate.



If you're using it for kiting, then yes, it becomes very effective. If you're playing on printed adventures (or RPGA) you'll find that almost all battlemaps are too small to effectively use AG. So this depends on your DM.

We don't often use printed adventures and when we have I have tended to pick a batlleground and then draw enemies into fighting me there. This can be difficult, but I have found it works. Also lining up so you can see into two different rooms and setting up your gate between them is very effective. Especially if you then close the doors (mage hand) slows enemies down no end.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-05, 10:34 AM
The problem with wizards escape is I can't use it unless I'm getting hit so when I want to teleport and there are no enemies around I'm screwed.
You can hit yourself :smallbiggrin:

(yeah, yeah, bag of rats rule, and all that. Ok, based on that I would recommend wiz escape as your regular level-6, and dimdoor as your alternate for in specific situations).

Oh yeah, good advice for the solo wizard: carry a few Tomes to increase your options. For instance, both Flaming Sphere and Dispel Magic are available in Tome form, which means that you can spend a Magic Item Daily to use them even if you don't actually know the spell.

Yakk
2009-10-05, 12:37 PM
Minus level chart:
Level AC Fort Ref Will To Hit
1 18 11 16 13 + 4
2 20 12 17 14 + 5
3 19 11 16 13 + 4
4 19 12 16 13 + 6
5 19 11 15 12 + 5
6 19 11 16 12 + 6
7 18 10 14 11 + 5
8 19 10 15 12 + 6
9 18 10 15 12 + 5
10 19 10 16 12 + 5

This uses Defence-Level and Attack-level to give you a more level-agnostic feel for how your character's attacks and defences are doing.

Drager
2009-10-05, 12:46 PM
Thanks Yakk that was pretty much what I was aiming for. Level +19 throughout his career is pretty much what I want AC wise. His fort is his lowest defense, but I will take some of the Defenses feats later on to remedy that.

Artanis
2009-10-05, 01:02 PM
Minus level chart:
Level AC Fort Ref Will To Hit
1 18 11 16 13 + 4
2 20 12 17 14 + 5
3 19 11 16 13 + 4
4 19 12 16 13 + 6
5 19 11 15 12 + 5
6 19 11 16 12 + 6
7 18 10 14 11 + 5
8 19 10 15 12 + 6
9 18 10 15 12 + 5
10 19 10 16 12 + 5

This uses Defence-Level and Attack-level to give you a more level-agnostic feel for how your character's attacks and defences are doing.

Is this what to aim for, or what monsters typically have?

Yakk
2009-10-05, 01:09 PM
Monsters, at each level, average +1 higher on all defences and attacks.

So by subtracting out your level, you get a 'level normalised' value for your attacks and defences.

This lets you compare a level 5 character against a level 10 character, and figure out who is doing better AC wise. And it is pretty simple to do.

You can also use monsters themselves as a baseline. L+14 AC and L+12 in other NADs is 'ok' for a given level -- below that is a weakness, above that is a strength. L+16 AC is sufficient if you are on the front line. L+19 AC is gravy, something that is extremely hard to attack and land blows on.

So we can see that this character's Will is 'meh', his Reflex is great, his Fortitude is a serious opening, and his AC is very solid.

We can also see that Fortitude is slowly falling off, and other defences are mostly staying put (with some decay after level 1-2, but that is expected).

This technique is far more useful when you are looking at a (say) level 17 character and trying to figure out if they have good AC or not at a glance. :)

Artanis
2009-10-05, 01:25 PM
*blinks* *looks*

Ohhhhh, that's what the character has. OK, I get it now. I knew about the increases per level mechanic, I just couldn't figure out which numbers the chart was referring to. :smallredface:

*phew*

That's a relief. I thought it was a chart of what a character should have, which would be really, really bad for my current Ranger. But thankfully, that isn't the case, so my Ranger's defenses aren't that bad :smallsmile:

Drager
2009-10-06, 08:02 AM
I've been trying to build this guy through paragon and am having a little trouble. I can keep his defenses reasonable until level 19-20, now when he goes Epic it won't be a problem, but a 2 level gap were he is squishy is, obviously, a bad thing.

Best I can do at level 20 is the following

AC 40 = 10 + 10(Half Level) + 7(Int) + 3(Armour) + 5(Enh) + 4(Ultimate Staff of Defence) + 1(Staff Fighting)

Fortitude 32 = 10 + 10(HL) + 3(Con) + 4(Neck) + 2(Belt of Vim) + 2(Great Fortitude) +1(Human)

Reflex 36 = 10 + 10(HL) + 7(Int) + 1(Arm) + 4(Neck) + 2(Quickstep Boots) + 1(Paragon Defenses) + 1(Hum)

Will 33 = 10 + 10(HL) + 3(Wis) + 4(Neck) + 2(Circlet of Indomitability) + 1(PD) + 1(Hum) + 2(Class)

So I have a real hole in Fort and Will, any ideas of a way I can push these up to ~34?

Level Independant Numbers
AC 20
Fort 12
Reflex 16
Will 13

Kurald Galain
2009-10-06, 08:14 AM
I've been trying to build this guy through paragon and am having a little trouble. I can keep his defenses reasonable until level 19-20, now when he goes Epic it won't be a problem, but a 2 level gap were he is squishy is, obviously, a bad thing.
Note that being 10% more likely to be hit on fortitude (and 5% on will) is not much of a "real hole", and does not even come close to "being squishy". Note that "level+14" is just a guideline that some forum users though up, it could just as easily be "level+15" or "level+13" without noticeably affecting game balance.

Investing a lot of money or feats in just a +1 is not really worth it, regardless of what your target number is.

You compensate by e.g. wearing resistance gear (you can easily have resist/10 to most elements by then, and have an item daily that resists weapon damage) and by using tactically-placed walls or zones to ensure monsters can't hit you.


(edit) some pseudo-math. Getting +1 to, say, reflex stops 5% of the damage from 20% of the attacks (assuming that fort/ref/will are about as common, and AC twice as common). If the average attack deals 15 points of damage, that stops 0,15 points of damage.
On the other hand, getting resist/5 to one of the ten element types stops 5 damage from every attack of that element, or from 10% of attacks, or 0,5 points of damage. This is clearly better than the above. On the one hand we must adjust this number down to compensate that not all attacks hit (but zones autohit), on the other hand we must adjust it up because certain element times are much more common, notably fire and necrotic.

Bottom line, resist/5 against a common element is a better defense than +1 to one of your NADs. Although of course the two stack, whenever you have limited resources (money, feats) the former should be given precedence. No, this is not hard scientific proof, but it matches my experience so far (and the awesomeness of spells like Resistance).

Drager
2009-10-06, 08:43 AM
Note that being 10% more likely to be hit on fortitude (and 5% on will) is not much of a "real hole", and does not even come close to "being squishy". Note that "level+14" is just a guideline that some forum users though up, it could just as easily be "level+15" or "level+13" without noticeably affecting game balance.

Investing a lot of money or feats in just a +1 is not really worth it, regardless of what your target number is.

You compensate by e.g. wearing resistance gear (you can easily have resist/10 to most elements by then, and have an item daily that resists weapon damage) and by using tactically-placed walls or zones to ensure monsters can't hit you.

Fair enough I already have my SoD class feature to give me +3 1/enc and Solid Sound feat to give me +2 to one defence when I use Magic Missile or Thunderwave (which will be often).

I guess I was viewing them as squishy because they are not close to my Ac/Reflex bonuses. I'd rather have them both at Level +15, but couldn't see a way to manage that.

At L21 I'll be getting Robust Defenses (switched for Paragon Defenses) and Improved Staff of Defense for +2 to all non-ac, so that should sort that out nicely.

Thanks for pointing out I was essentially just being panicky. You may have noticed I've always got some resitance potions and am switching to Crystalline Breastplate. I'm also aiming at a Brimstone Cloak, Stormcatcher ring and a Ring of Shadow Guard.

Altogether Resist 10 Thunder, Lightning, Cold, Fire, Poison, Raidant, Necrotic

Resistance potions can cover the holes in that if neccessary. I guess making the enemy have to target Fort with a Psychic, untyped or Acid attack to really do damage is enough to ensure survival. :).