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View Full Version : [3.5] Must-have sorcerer spells by level



Choco
2009-10-05, 10:19 AM
Alrighty, this is basically an optimization question/build challenge/discussion on which spells are the most useful/powerful and why. My goal is to compile a list of which spells a Sorcerer should have as known spells (limited by how many spells of each level a Sorcerer knows at CL 20), from any official sourcebook, to be the most powerful, useful, and versatile a Sorcerer could possibly be. Please make your suggestions and state what makes that spell a must-have. Hopefully this will make an excellent discussion!

p.s. if someone has already done this, then please link me the table/list. If anything we can continue the discussion.

Alright, what we got so far (those without reasons will be filled in later...):

Level 0:
Detect Poison - Pretty dumb for a level 20 sorcerer to be killed by a poisoned sandwich
Detect/Read Magic - Kinda mandatory for a magician
Light - So simple but so necessary
Ghost sounds - There's so much trickery that can be done with this
Mage Hand - What magician doesn't want to move objects with their mind?
Message - Great for commanding minions
Arcane Mark - This one is kind of a toss up, but it's useful if you want to get Instant Summons. Plus it's thematic.
Presdigitation - Think of the fun at parties!

Level 1:
Grease - Melee chars with less than 5 ranks in Balance are made useless
Power Word Pain
Color Spray

Level 2:
Wings of Cover - "'NO' as an immediate action"

Level 8:
Polymorph Any Object - Turn anything into anything else, what more explanation needed?

Level 9:
Mindrape - Serves as the ultimate interrogation and brainwashing tool

Boci
2009-10-05, 10:26 AM
I'm sure its been done before. Now as far as first level, greace it vital. You would then want one damaging spell of three different energy types, and take energy substitution for the last. Arcane fusion (and its greater version) is essential.

Doc Roc
2009-10-05, 10:29 AM
This has been done a number of times before. I'll try and find them all later, but here's one of my favorites (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962)... Unfortunately, a lot of my other favorites were on gleemax before the Switch. I wish my sorcerer's guide was legible...

Of those, grease, power word pain, and shadowspray are really common on my characters.

Lysander
2009-10-05, 10:37 AM
Let's start with level 0. How about:

Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Ghost Sounds, Mage Hand, Message, Arcane Mark, Presdigitation

My reasoning:

1. Detect Poison - Pretty dumb for a level 20 sorcerer to be killed by a poisoned sandwich
2. Detect/Read Magic - Kinda mandatory for a magician
3. Light - So simple but so necessary
4. Ghost sounds - There's so much trickery that can be done with this
5. Mage Hand - What magician doesn't want to move objects with their mind?
6. Message - Great for commanding minions
7. Arcane Mark - This one is kind of a toss up, but it's useful if you want to get Instant Summons. Plus it's thematic.
8. Presdigitation - Think of the fun at parties!

Doc Roc
2009-10-05, 10:38 AM
You missed Launch Item.

Eloel
2009-10-05, 10:40 AM
Never forget Wings of Cover. 'NO' as an immediate action as a 2nd level spell? I'll take 2 please.

Mystral
2009-10-05, 10:50 AM
Phantom Steed worked very well for my sorceress. As a sorcerer, I had enough spells to give one steed to every member of the party, so we were able to zoom everywhere. Ambushs? We were gone before they even realized someone was coming.

lsfreak
2009-10-05, 11:40 AM
Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation and friends. The extra save hurts, but it simply opens up such a huge variety of spells.

Greater Mirror Image. One of the best defensive spells there is. Possibly downrank to just Mirror Image as a sorcerer, but I'd prefer not to.

Arcane Fusion and possibly Greater Arcane Fusion (but eating up a spell slot this high hurts, so choose wisely). Cast two spells using a single spell slot.

Orb of X. Pick your favorite.

Wings of Flurry. Not only a low-level uncapped AoE, but it can stun for a round.

Limited Wish for replicating Psychic Reformation. Or even if that's not allowed, just for casting that spell you really need NOW.

At least one of the silent image family of spells. Limited only by your imagination. Throw up a "wall" around you that mindless creatures can't even make the save to disbelieve. How does a troll react to thinking, looking, and feeling like it's on fire when it's really not?

Willis888
2009-10-05, 11:48 AM
Detect Magic: Every caster should have it.

Read Magic: Every caster should have it.

True Strike: for when you need to make that touch attack.

Eagles Splendor: +2 DC to saving throws against your spells.

Dispel Magic: Every caster should have it.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability: a good opening when ambushed by casters.

Greater Invisibility: Your party will thank you

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-05, 11:51 AM
Detect Poison - Pretty dumb for a level 20 sorcerer to be killed by a poisoned sandwich

If the Sandwich is a Psion, it doesn't matter.


"What's that sandvich? Kill them all? Good idea!"

Boci
2009-10-05, 11:51 AM
Eagles Splendor: +2 DC to saving throws against your spells.

Doesn't stack with a cloak of charisma.

jiriku
2009-10-05, 11:55 AM
Evard's black tentacles is highly effective for battlefield control, while enervation is dangerous even at higher levels with metamagic applied, and works fine against creatures with energy resistance and/or strong saves. Wall of stone has a variety of uses in and out of combat.

quillbreaker
2009-10-05, 11:57 AM
Would this thread be complete without Ruin Delver's Fortune?

Draz74
2009-10-05, 01:58 PM
Shadow Conjuration/Shadow Evocation and friends. The extra save hurts, but it simply opens up such a huge variety of spells.

QFT, especially where basic Shadow Conjuration is concerned.

Any summoning or creation spell, level 3 or lower? And there's no disadvantage except the L4 spell slot, as long as it's not an attack spell?

So I can duplicate Phantom Steed. Already, that means I don't need to use Spells Known on Expeditious Retreat, Fly, or Overland Flight. Still no save involved.

I can duplicate Summon Monster III to summon 1d4+1 critters to use as trapfinders or other sacrificial roles. In noncombat situations, who cares that their HP are at 40%?

If I can't spare a L3 Spell Known for Stinking Cloud -- an excellent attack spell -- I can at least pull off a similar effect, albeit with an additional save granted. Same with L1 Spells Known and Grease. Or L2 Spells Known and Web.

Sounds worth it to me.

Keld Denar
2009-10-05, 02:04 PM
SOLID FOG!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, nothing makes DMs cry like big dumb slow monsters fighting a sorcerer with half a dozen 4th level slots and a desire to make combat last a VERY long time.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-05, 02:07 PM
QFT, especially where basic Shadow Conjuration is concerned.

Any summoning or creation spell, level 3 or lower? And there's no disadvantage except the L4 spell slot, as long as it's not an attack spell?

So I can duplicate Phantom Steed. Already, that means I don't need to use Spells Known on Expeditious Retreat, Fly, or Overland Flight. Still no save involved.

I can duplicate Summon Monster III to summon 1d4+1 critters to use as trapfinders or other sacrificial roles. In noncombat situations, who cares that their HP are at 40%?

If I can't spare a L3 Spell Known for Stinking Cloud -- an excellent attack spell -- I can at least pull off a similar effect, albeit with an additional save granted. Same with L1 Spells Known and Grease. Or L2 Spells Known and Web.

Sounds worth it to me.

What exactly would 40% of a Grease spell be, just reduced area?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-05, 02:12 PM
Hypothesis: Your chance of failure on the balance checks/reflex saves is reduced to 40% of what it was. If you succeeded on an 8 or higher for the balance check, you now have a 86% chance of success (4 or higher). If you succeeded on a 15 or higher for the Reflex save, you now have a 72% chance of success (7 or higher).

Since the Grease is mostly illusionary, and probably thus sort of spotty in its coverage, this sort of great increase in success rate is justifiable.

Keld Denar
2009-10-05, 02:16 PM
Too much math. The easiest thing to do it just roll percentiles. Less than or equal to 40%? Roll a save. More than 41%? You know its fake...move along.

Boci
2009-10-05, 02:18 PM
Level 9:
Mindrape - Serves as the ultimate interrogation and brainwashing tool

Isn't mind rape too situational to be a sorceror's spell?

Choco
2009-10-05, 02:19 PM
Isn't mind rape too situational to be a sorceror's spell?

I dunno, I am the type to throw that spell around left and right...

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-05, 02:20 PM
Limited Wish for replicating Psychic Reformation

That might help with your mind-sexual-assault.

tyckspoon
2009-10-05, 02:21 PM
Hypothesis: Your chance of failure on the balance checks/reflex saves is reduced to 40% of what it was. If you succeeded on an 8 or higher for the balance check, you now have a 86% chance of success (4 or higher). If you succeeded on a 15 or higher for the Reflex save, you now have a 72% chance of success (7 or higher).

Since the Grease is mostly illusionary, and probably thus sort of spotty in its coverage, this sort of great increase in success rate is justifiable.

Easier to just treat it like a miss chance. If you make your Will save against the Grease, roll d% (or equivalent d20 results). If you get above 40%, you are standing on a part of the Grease that is insufficiently real and don't have to worry about it right now; check again if you move within the area. If you get <40, fall over.

Your way is probably truer to what the spell should do, but I'd rather not insert another bit of math into it if not necessary.

Edit: bah ninja.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-05, 02:29 PM
Arcane Fusion and possibly Greater Arcane Fusion (but eating up a spell slot this high hurts, so choose wisely). Cast two spells using a single spell slot.


It hurts you to use the spell slot, but it hurts your enemies far, far more.

AmberVael
2009-10-05, 02:38 PM
It hurts you to use the spell slot, but it hurts your enemies far, far more.

Definitely. Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion are really awesome spells.
They help you make use of all those spell slots per day.

Paulus
2009-10-05, 03:08 PM
This has always been my humble list. For those Core only games really, but still worth it.


0 Level Spells
1. Prestidigitation – They should rename this spell to “Fun”.
2. Ghost Sounds – Limited only by your imagination.
3. Dancing Lights – Superior to Light, and more versatile.
4. Detect Magic – Obligatory.
5. Mage Hand - I’ll take that.
6. Message - Psst. Hey, you see that rogue in the shadows?
7. Mending – Because honestly, what self-respecting sorcerer has holes in his pants?
8. Detect Poison – Nothing, Sire, just increasing the flavor to further savoir this fine meal.

1st Level Spells
1. Feather Fall – Because falling to your death is just silly.
2. Magic Missile – Reliable, reliable, reliable.
3. Comprehend Languages – Understanding what the Orc Leader is saying while surrounded by the entire tribe especially if you’re in a cage at the time… yeah.
4. Endure Elements – Because dieing of heatstroke, or hyperthermia, or being boiled alive, is just so beneath you.

2nd Level Spells
1. Invisibility - Now you see me…
2. Alter Self – Water Breathing, Flight, not to mention the ultimate disguise? Beautiful.
3. Mirror Image – So very cliché, yet so worth it.
4. Dark Vision – Being able to see in the dark, possibly racially sensitive.

3rd Level Spells
1. Fireball – Because you can.
2. Lightning Bolt – Because you can, by Bahamut!
3. Fly – Really, who hasn’t wanted to?
4. Water Breathing – It’s okay my friends, I didn’t forget you.

4th Level Spells
1. Polymorph – Because being anything is part of the job description. Just don’t abuse it.
2. Dimension Door – Can’t touch this.
3. Resilient Sphere – Enemy pinball or friend evacuation from a bad situation.

5th Level Spells
1. Overland Flight – Fly, but, MORE.
2. Telekinesis – Because moving things with my mind requires no power points.
3. Break Enchantment – No, no, and No. Sorry, Better luck next time.

6th Level Spells
1. Dispel Magic, Greater – I’m sorry, did you try to cast something?
2. Shadow Walk – Teleport only safer.

7th Level Spells
1. Limited Wish – Yes, I can cast that. and that. and that. and that. and that.
2. Shadow Conjuration, Greater- Let’s see, what shall I cast today?
-0: Acid Splash
-1: Grease, Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, Mount, Obscuring Mist
-2: Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Acid Arrow
-3. Phantom steed, Sepia Snake Sigil, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud
-4. Black Tentacles, Secure Shelter, Minor Creation, Solid Fog
-5. Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Major Creation, Secret Chest, Faithful Hound
-6. Acid Fog, Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron

8th Level Spells
1. Mind Blank - A do not disturb sign you place on the back of your head.
2. Polymorph Any Object – Because turning anything into anything else is also in there.
3. Shadow Evocation, Greater – Lets see, what shall I harm you with today?
-0. Dancing Lights, Flare, Ray of Frost, Light,
-1. Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Floating Disk
-2. Continual Flame, Darkness, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray, Shatter
-3. Daylight, Fireball, Tiny hut, Lightning Bolt, Wind Wall
-4. For Shield, Ice Storm, Resilient Sphere, Shout, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice
-5. Interposing Hand, Cone of Cold, Sending, Wall of Force
-6. Forceful Hand, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Freezing Sphere
-7. Grasping Hand, Delayed Blast Fireball, Forcecage, Sword, Prismatic Spray

9th Level Spells
1. Wish – I reject your reality and substitute my own.

PId6
2009-10-05, 03:09 PM
It hurts you to use the spell slot, but it hurts your enemies far, far more.
And there's always Sanctum Spell.

Masaioh
2009-10-05, 03:22 PM
My favourite 9's are mindrape, wish, and sphere of destruction.

Talya
2009-10-05, 03:36 PM
My favourite 9's are mindrape, wish, and sphere of destruction.

My favorite 9 is Shapechange...

sofawall
2009-10-05, 04:11 PM
Funny thing. (Greater) Arcane Fusion doesn't use up the lower level slots, only the higher one used to cast the actual Arcane Fusion.


Definitely. Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion are really awesome spells.
They help you make use of all those spell slots per day.

Claudius Maximus
2009-10-05, 04:21 PM
Why hasn't Arcane Spellsurge been mentioned yet? An amazing spell for Sorcerers.

AmberVael
2009-10-05, 04:34 PM
Funny thing. (Greater) Arcane Fusion doesn't use up the lower level slots, only the higher one used to cast the actual Arcane Fusion.

...right. I knew that. In fact, I'm pretty sure I was going to mention that in my post somewhere. :smallconfused:

I'm obviously not at my thinking best today.

lsfreak
2009-10-05, 04:42 PM
Assay Spell Resistance (4th) if you feel the need.

Enervation (4th) is nice, but it might warrant replacement at high levels where a lot of monsters have immunity to negative levels. Also look into Necrotic Skull Bomb (5th) - AoE enervation with a save, but it's a swift action.

Teleport (5th). DDoor is earlier, but limits you actions for the rest of the round, and Greater Teleport is better but eats up a much more important slot.

Arcane Spellsurge (7th), I meant to mention that earlier.

Ray of Enfeeblement (1st), Ray of Exhaustion (3rd), Ray of Clumsiness (1st), Ray of Stupidity (2nd). Pick one or two, but be warned the last one is bordering on cheesy when you use it against animals and the like.

And some that should only be taken with consideration, but are fun enough to warrant mentioning.

Freezing Fog (6th), bigger brother of Solid Fog. Combine with Born of Three Thunders and watch the DM twitch in frustration - save or stunned then save or prone, plus save or prone, plus a check to move that if you fail you're prone. And if you make all those, you can now move 10 feet as your whole round.
Then throw in a metamagic reducer and Fell Drain. Ahahaha.

Mother Cyst feat gets you free spells. Then infect bunnies and kittens with Necrotic Cysts, release them on a confused BBEG-and-minions, and follow up with Necrotic Eruption. Infect the king's pet poodle/cat/monkey/platypus and use it for scrying.

Avascular Mass (8th). Halve someone's health, possibly stun them, and then take the blood vessels you just ripped out of them and Web all their allies. Okay, so it's probably not actually worth the slot, but it's still fun as hell.

jiriku
2009-10-05, 04:49 PM
GAF is absolutely on the list, especially since you can use a greater rod of quickening on it, and throw two in one round. One round and four spells later, you have completely reshaped the battlefield. GAF+AF is also useful for certain nova tactics, since you can GAF a pair of AF, then quicken and repeat, for a total of eight spells (four 4th level and four 1st level) in one round. Use various combinations of this during a time stop and you can execute some formidable self-buffing routines without chance of interruption.

AmberVael
2009-10-05, 05:27 PM
GAF is absolutely on the list, especially since you can use a greater rod of quickening on it, and throw two in one round. One round and four spells later, you have completely reshaped the battlefield. GAF+AF is also useful for certain nova tactics, since you can GAF a pair of AF, then quicken and repeat, for a total of eight spells (four 4th level and four 1st level) in one round. Use various combinations of this during a time stop and you can execute some formidable self-buffing routines without chance of interruption.

Last I checked, Greater Arcane Fusion was an 8th level spell that allowed you one 7th level spell and one 4th level spell, while Arcane Fusion was a 5th level spell that allowed one 4th and one 1st level.

So how do you propose to cast two Arcane Fusion for each GAF?

tyckspoon
2009-10-05, 05:36 PM
Last I checked, Greater Arcane Fusion was an 8th level spell that allowed you one 7th level spell and one 4th level spell, while Arcane Fusion was a 5th level spell that allowed one 4th and one 1st level.

So how do you propose to cast two Arcane Fusion for each GAF?

Sanctum Spell hackery, IIRC.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-05, 05:46 PM
Last I checked, Greater Arcane Fusion was an 8th level spell that allowed you one 7th level spell and one 4th level spell, while Arcane Fusion was a 5th level spell that allowed one 4th and one 1st level.

So how do you propose to cast two Arcane Fusion for each GAF?

Sanctum Spell outside your Sanctum, probably.

Even without that, though, if you cast a Greater Arcane Fusion, having the 7th or lower spell be Arcane Fusion, you put out two 4th level spells and a 1st level spell with one casting. If you have a Greater rod of Quicken Spell to apply to a second Greater Arcane Fusion, you're putting out four 4th level spells and two 1st level spells that way - how many Enervations can your opponent take before he auto-fails those Grease and Charm Person spells you loaded in at the end?

As for good spells:
You need:
1) One good save-or-lose spell of each type (example: Web, Glitterdust, Cloud of Bewliderment (Spell Compendium: it's Stinking Cloud with a smaller area): Each is 2nd level)
2) One or two no-save-just-suck spells (Examples: Enervation, Solid Fog)
3) One good direct-damage spell, and a way to change it's type (alternately: Two good direct-damage spells). The Orb line works well for this, but Fireball and Lightning Bolt will do in a pinch.
4) A good no-SR spell (several of my examples already cover this; Conjouration is a fun school with Spell Compendium... or just Core, really...)
5) A good buff spell for when your enemies can't be touched for some reason (Example: Haste. Everybody loves getting Hasted.).
6) A few good defensive spells (Displacement, Mirror Image, Blurr, Resilient Sphere... which is also an offensive spell)
7) A sneaky spell (Invisibility is required, Greater Invisibility or Superior Invisibility are recommended additions)
8) Arcane Sight (yes, you want it - doubles as See Invisibility for targeting a Glitterdust)
9) A few utility spells (Dimension Door, Shadow Walk ... most of the Shadow line, actually ... Spider Climb, Fly, and such)
10) Heighten Spell

Consider all bases covered, pick the rest for flavor.

AmberVael
2009-10-05, 06:05 PM
Sanctum spell is just so obviously cheap and cheesy though. Using Sanctum spell you can get endless amounts of spells (as you can use Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion to cast themselves).
I don't really count it when thinking about Arcane Fusion.

Doc Roc
2009-10-05, 06:17 PM
Sanctum spell is just so obviously cheap and cheesy though. Using Sanctum spell you can get endless amounts of spells (as you can use Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion to cast themselves).
I don't really count it when thinking about Arcane Fusion.

No it's not :smallwink::smallwink:
Did you know it made it through the entire product cycle of 3rd edition, largely unchanged?

Jack_Simth
2009-10-05, 06:18 PM
Sanctum spell is just so obviously cheap and cheesy though. Using Sanctum spell you can get endless amounts of spells (as you can use Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion to cast themselves).
I don't really count it when thinking about Arcane Fusion.
... and with the way (Greater) Arcane Fusion is written, that's an arbitrarily high number of spells with a single spell slot. Yikes. Sanctum Spell (Arcane Fusion) for Sanctum Spell (Arcane Fusion) and ... oh, let's use Magic Missile. And for the second Sanctum Spell (Arcane Fusion), we use Sanctum Spell (Arcane Fusion) and Magic Missile again.

... yeah, that's broken as all get-out. Infinite loops are bad. 10th level Sorcerer doing an arbitrary amount of damage. Yikes.

AmberVael
2009-10-05, 06:22 PM
... yeah, that's broken as all get-out. Infinite loops are bad. 10th level Sorcerer doing an arbitrary amount of damage. Yikes.
Precisely. So I discount Sanctum spell, at least in that use.