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Tehnar
2009-10-05, 12:50 PM
Assuming that you allow monk unarmed damage to continue progressing in the epic tier (thus allowing monk's belt and similar effects to work pre epic), how exactly would the progression go? I've done this but am not 100% sure it is correct.

{table]Monk Level|Unarmed Damage(medium)|Unarmed Damage(large)
1-3|1d6|1d8
4-7|1d8|2d6
8-11|1d10|2d8
12-15|2d6|3d6
16-19|2d8|3d8
20-23|2d10|4d8
24-27|4d6|6d6
28-31|6d6|6d8
32-35|8d6|8d8[/table]

How would it look for huge monks? Im assuming 2d6->3d6->3d8->4d8->6d6->6d8->8d8->12d8, but again am not sure.

Eldariel
2009-10-05, 01:07 PM
Well, you could do it like size increases: Once you get to 3dX, it uses X (where X is 6 or 8) ad nauseam. The existing progressions are 3d6 -> 4d6 -> 6d6 -> 8d6 -> 12d6 -> 16d6 - > 24d6 -> etc. and 3d8 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8 -> 16d8 - > 24d8 -> etc.

Large would thus be 3d8 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8 -> 16d8 -> 24d8 -> 32d8 -> 48d8 -> 64d8 -> etc.


Fact is that Monk progression does not directly follow size increase-patterns which makes it a bit problematic. Also, be careful. If continuing the progressions beyond level 20, you'll end up in a scenario where the only way to deal competitive melee damage is to have unarmed progression; everything else just gets left ridiculously far behind.

Keld Denar
2009-10-05, 01:19 PM
The King of Smack says "sup?".

Tehnar
2009-10-05, 01:26 PM
Ive even tried to plot the expectation value (using second degree polynoms), getting y=0.16x^2+0.375x+3, y being the average damage value, x being the category of monk advancement.

This brings me to for levels 24+ of 13.5, 28+ 16, 32+ 19.5. Which is lower then the proposed damage from dice both of us suggested.

This approach is probably moot since I highly doubt WotC considered any of this when designing the monk unarmed damage and weapon damage increase due to size. Probably more along the line "moar dice iz betta!".

Ernir
2009-10-05, 01:47 PM
Looks to me like the progression comes in steps of three, d6 -> d8 -> d10, and once the step is completed you either add one die or double their number (impossible to tell which) and start over.

So the first step of the epic progression would be either 3d6 -> 3d8 -> 3d10 (if you add one), or 4d6 -> 4d8 -> 4d10 (if you double). 4d6 -> 4d8 -> 4d10 and 8d6 -> 8d8 -> 8d10 respectively for the second.


Either progression stinks, but Monks should be used to that by Epic, shouldn't they? :smallbiggrin:

Tehnar
2009-10-05, 01:55 PM
The thing is I am using it for pre epic campaigns. Superior unarmed strike, monks belt (ruled to stack), improved natural attack, fist of the forest, enlarge person, gets the damage up really quick if you allow progression beyond level 20.

I was hoping someone knew the reasoning behind the monk progression to 20, and from that to extrapolate to beyond 20 and for different sizes. I will probably end up using Eldariel's suggestion instead of trying to figure out the logic behind the monks damage advancement.

Artanis
2009-10-05, 02:37 PM
I don't know the reasoning, but I do see a pattern when you compare the small, medium, and large damage to the "real" weapons table.

Levels 1-3 match the shortspear.
4-7 matches the longsword.
8-11 matches the bastard sword.
12-15 matches the greatsword.
16-19 almost matches 2x the longsword.
20 matches 2x the bastard sword.

So if I was to extend the Monk unarmed attack through to level 30, what I would do is to keep going through the longsword -> bastard sword -> longsword rotation, going up by one on the multiplier each time. In other words, as levels go up, the sequence I would use is:

2x bastard sword
2x greatsword
3x longsword
3x bastard sword
3x greatsword
4x longsword
etc.

That gives a pattern to the progression for however many levels you want, and also gives a pattern for size increases beyond small and large.

For instance, going by this pattern, a level 24 monk would be on 2x greatsword damage. So damage by size would be:
Small - 2d10
Medium - 4d6
Large - 6d6
Huge - 8d6
Gargantuan - 12d6
Colossal - 16d6


What do you guys think? There are some problems, of course, but it shouldn't work too badly if you don't extend it too far.

Tehnar
2009-10-05, 04:09 PM
2x bastard sword
2x greatsword
3x longsword
3x bastard sword
3x greatsword
4x longsword


Hmm I see a little problem here. You are going from 2d10 (11) -> 4d6 (14) -> 3d8 (13.5), making this a downgrade in damage.

However your observation works great for monk damage in the pre epic. Giving me hope that we can crack this one.

Oh and does anyone have access to the 3.0 material? I think I remember the last die was 1d20 for medium progression, but can't recall ones for small and large monks.

ericgrau
2009-10-05, 04:44 PM
Take a look at the averages:
{table]level | medium | large
1-3 | 3.5 | 4.5
4-7 | 4.5 | 7
8-11 | 5.5 | 9
12-15 | 7 | 10.5
16-19 | 9 | 13.5
20-23 | 11 | 18
24-27 | 14 | 21
28-31 | 21| 27
32-34 | 28| 36
[/table]
There's a substantial error at levels 28-31. To continue the pattern, try something that increases it by about 3 again (like 5d6), then after that try maybe 4 or 4.5 per 3 levels for the next couple table rows, then 5-6, then etc. For size increase rules, check out www.d20srd.org. I think it's in the equipment => weapons section, but there might also be something in the advancing monsters sections.

Tehnar
2009-10-05, 06:16 PM
I picked those growths from what I expected the monk damage to scale as, according to the weapon damage and size chart. There it grows exponentially.

Now I agree the progression for monks should be slowed a bit. Im looking for a progression that will lead moderately optimized monk (so just improved natural attacks, monks belt, superior unarmed strike and enlarge person) at level 20 to deal about 8d6 to 12d6 damage per attack. Something in line with sneak attack damage output at that level.

What I get from the averages, is that the pattern goes (for medium) at +1,+1,+1.5,+2,+2 (for the first 20 levels). I could go with growth of +2.5,+3,+3,+3.5,+4 but that seems a little on the low.

However, it doesn't work very well for the large+ sizes. That is the part I am interested in, as any monk at those levels will get a way to treat his unarmed strikes as one size larger. Unfortunately the pattern (or lack of) for large damage increase is +2.5,+2,+1.5,+3,+4.5. Making it hard for me to deduce it.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, keep them coming.

Sophismata
2009-10-06, 12:11 AM
Hmm I see a little problem here. You are going from 2d10 (11) -> 4d6 (14) -> 3d8 (13.5), making this a downgrade in damage.

However your observation works great for monk damage in the pre epic. Giving me hope that we can crack this one.

Oh and does anyone have access to the 3.0 material? I think I remember the last die was 1d20 for medium progression, but can't recall ones for small and large monks.

Replace Greatsword with 2xShortsword and the pattern is fixed.

Damage progression becomes shortsword, longsword, bastardsword, 2xshortsword, 2xlongsword, 2xbastardsword...

This still leaves a problem with the 2d10 (11 damage) to 3d6 (10.5 damage) step, though.

In order to fix this, I'd look at the pattern this way:

d6, d8, d10
2x the line above
2x the line above

And you'll get epic progression of 4d6, 4d8, 4d10, 8d6, 8d8, 8d10.

14, 18, 22, 28, 36, 44... which is probably the best way to handle it.

A progression of 4d6, 4d8, 4d10 to 6d6, 6d8 and 6d10 still loses average damage when going from 4d10 to 6d6.


I don't have my book in front of me, but IIRC:

Level 1-3: 1-6
Level 4-7: 1-8
Level 8-11: 1-10
Level 12-15: 1-12
Level 16-20: 1-20

for 3.0 Monk progression.

ericgrau
2009-10-06, 01:08 AM
I picked those growths from what I expected the monk damage to scale as, according to the weapon damage and size chart. There it grows exponentially.

The existing pattern already grows quadratically, which I assume is what you mean. You can graph it if it makes you feel better. I could tell because the difference between the numbers is increasing, rather than staying the same.