The battletech/mechwarrior thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

TheThan

2009-10-05, 02:19 PM

This is a general thread for all things related to battletech and mechwarrior. Whether you want to talk about the upcoming mechwarrior 5 pc game, the classic battle tech miniatures game or heck, the old battletech cartoon series. This is the thread for you. Anything related to the topic is open for discussion.

To get things off the ground, I just got my friends into classic battletech. They’ve all played the older pc games so they know a bit about the universe, so they were happy to see mechs they recognize, like the madcat (excuse me, timberwolf) and the cougar. One friend has already decided to buy a few models of his own [so he doesn’t have to keep borrowing mine and blitz’s (that’s my brother)].

Blitz plays clan Jade Falcon, and he’s got almost a trinary of mechs, While I’m playing house Steiner/lyran alliance. I’m close to a full company of mechs myself. So between me and him we have enough to cover our friends till they buy their own. However since most of the mechs my friends recognize are clan mechs they are naturally gravitating to clan tech. I sort of expected that.

Anyway we played three 3vs 3 games. We’re using clan pilots since more than half the mechs on the field are clan (figured it’d be easier since we were teaching the game as well as trying to play one). Highlights include the same person getting knocked down, then getting shot and suffering and ammo explosion, which killed him. This happened twice. The last game the poor guy took a lucky head shot and died from a catapult at short range.
I broke out my brand new battlemaster and bravely (or foolishly) charged down an Awesome, taking the PPC fire and closing into his minimum range, where I was able to stay and pew pew him to death with my medium pulse lasers… eventually.

I really like how ballzy that mech is, so its fun to play, but I was expecting more firepower than it has. Fortunately I managed to find some different mech sheets for it so I should have more options on the table for it.

HandofShadows

2009-10-05, 02:30 PM

I broke out my brand new battlemaster and bravely (or foolishly) charged down an Awesome, taking the PPC fire and closing into his minimum range, where I was able to stay and pew pew him to death with my medium pulse lasers… eventually.

Old saying "The only counter for an Awesome is anouther Awesome" is not that far from the truth. If you faced and Awesome with Heavy PPC's you are very lucky.

TheThan

2009-10-05, 02:33 PM

Old saying "The only counter for an Awesome is anouther Awesome" is not that far from the truth. If you faced and Awesome with Heavy PPC's you are very lucky.

they were standard PPC's. Since it's the version that comes in the starter box. but still that's like 30 damage a turn if he can hit with them all.

Artanis

2009-10-05, 02:44 PM

Anybody here ever play MechCommander? I love that game, but it never seems to get mentioned much.

*grumbles about Thors and their damn HACs*

The Glyphstone

2009-10-05, 03:04 PM

I'm pretty sure the Mechwarrior 5 discussion thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117715&page=11)got morphed into a general Battletech thread.

Winterwind

2009-10-05, 03:15 PM

It was, but shifting the discussion to an aptly named BattleTech thread instead might make sense nonetheless.

Timberwolf

2009-10-05, 03:46 PM

Anybody here ever play MechCommander? I love that game, but it never seems to get mentioned much.

*grumbles about Thors and their damn HACs*

Played (and loved) Mechcommander 2. Ahhhh, the 5 PPC MadCat, was ther no limit to its utility ? (and the 2 longtom Atlas)

Jimp

2009-10-06, 02:51 PM

I've been trying to get into the battletech tabletop game and have gotten the Battletech 4th Edition Rulebook. I found a website with a generator for custom mechs and noticed it had different levels of rules and prices for the mech and parts. Just wondering if the 'rules levels' and the prices for mech parts are featured in another book or a different edition or something?
Here is the website, the generator is pretty good:
http://www.futureterra.com/mech-rpg-generator/

Erloas

2009-10-06, 03:27 PM

Solaris Skunk Werks (http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/downloads) is the program theThan (I believe) linked to in the previous thread and it is what I use all the time now too.

I did a quick build on the site you linked and it came up with different values. I'm going to assume it is still using the old BV1.0 system and not the new BV2.0 system. The rules to building 'Mechs (and every other type of unit) including the BV, C-bill costs and everything else is in the Tech Manual.

I'm not totally sure on the edition numbers, but Total Warfare is the newest main rulebook.

The rule levels have disappeared in the new edition and the closest equivalent is simply the Era. Tech level 1 was basically the same as the 3025 Era, Tech level 2 was everything after 3025 including all Clan technology, that was core/tournament legal. Tech level 3 included a lot of optional/experimental equipment, it tended to include things like early versions of level 2 equipment with some faults like are using in some stories and scenarios, unconventional units like LAMs, and that sort of thing. Often things added to canon from earlier books that they kind of wanted to get rid of but didn't want to errata already established canon so simply made it level 3 and not tournament legal. All the old level 3 stuff falls into the other main rulebooks which they are working on now, which is all optional and not tournament legal. They also include a lot of other optional rules.

Timberwolf

2009-10-06, 04:59 PM

I just had a play with that site. I've never built a mech in my life (I have no one to play the game with :( ) but, as far as I can see, I've created a fun ride. A 75 ton Clan heavy with a 2 ERPPC and 2 er meds as well as Endo Steel, a Targetting Computer, jump jets, 9 DHS (so almost heat neutral - 38 dissipated, 42 produced - I guess that'll be from an Alpha Strike but am not sure how they've set the site up) and 12.5 tons of ferro armour. Other toys include ECM, BAP and 3 AP pods just in case the flies get near. I put the weapons in the arms and spread everything around so as not to lose everything when cored. Walking speed is 5, running speed is 8 (which is the most it would let me have).

That seemed suspiciously easy... I have no idea if what I have created is good or not, but in my MW4 addled mind I can see it working, just about, as a hard to pin down harrasser from the edge of a fight. At a cost of 29.5 million cbills though, only the Clans with their utter lack of any need to worry about money would be fielding this.

Guancyto

2009-10-06, 05:13 PM

Played (and loved) Mechcommander 2. Ahhhh, the 5 PPC MadCat, was ther no limit to its utility ? (and the 2 longtom Atlas)

! Hey, someone else that has played that!

...I was partial to the 8 (or was it 10? I forget) Pulse Laser Zeus, personally. Spec your pilot into lasers, medium range and called shots and you'd get multiple headshots a second.

Or loading light 'mechs up with as many Clan LRMs as they could fit.

NeoVid

2009-10-06, 08:02 PM

TheThan

2009-10-06, 11:45 PM

Oh man, it's been a long time since I painted up all those 'mechs I had for Battletech 3rd edition.

Much as I love the entire setting, the only version I ever got to play very much was Mechwarrior Dark Age... until it died. Dammit.

So, anyone else here ever play at Virtual World? That was some of the most fun I ever had in my life. Whatever happened to the one I could get to... sigh.

Mechwarrior Dark Age was a fantastic game. The only real problem was that it’s a clix game and therefor collectable. The rules were great (loved the order system), and the models were solid. Too bad wizkids decided to let the game die.

My bro’s got a large republic of the sphere army, as well as a small but elite force of house Davion. He’s got a few nova cats mechs (including, funny enough a nova cat), that I usually use as well as an assortment of other mechs and units.

Ka-ther Fangfoot

2009-10-07, 10:57 AM

I downloaded the solaris skunk works and the megamek program. They are fun. At some point I think I would like to actually get some models. Is there any way to use the mechs I design in SSW in Megamek? I have mostly made era designs.

Right now I have a strange attraction to MRMs. Something about how huge the volleys get makes me happy. How good are they in battletech? In Mechwarrior four I designed a Catapult with a pair of MRM 40s, which is surprisingly effective at destroying assault mechs. Though it is surpassed by the vulture I made that fires 100 :smalleek: LRMs in a single volley.

One question I have from using SSW and Megamek, how do ultra and rotory ACs differ from normal ACs?

SparkMandriller

2009-10-07, 11:05 AM

Erloas

2009-10-07, 11:23 AM

Artanis

2009-10-07, 12:06 PM

Played (and loved) Mechcommander 2. Ahhhh, the 5 PPC MadCat, was ther no limit to its utility ? (and the 2 longtom Atlas)

I never got to play MC2. I heard about it before it came out, then it just seemed to vanish from the face of the earth. By the time I got an opportunity to buy it, it had stopped being sold.

In MechCommander 1, I went the opposite route, going with a bunch of fast-firing, lower-damage weapons. As awesome as it was to load up a Masakari with a trillion LRM racks and watch it obliterate anything in sight, doing that didn't get a lot of salvage. I wound up using lots of Large, ER Large, and Large Pulse Lasers, and it worked pretty well...except against Thors and Hunchbacks with their *&%@*#& H4X HACs.

Also, regardless of what games people have or have not played, every Battletech fan should watch the MechCommander 1 opening cinematic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8mOiRLQB6E) :smallsmile:

SparkMandriller

2009-10-07, 12:25 PM

Warhawks in MC1 sucked, they were way too slow. I always ended up leaving them in storage 'cause it took them forever to get to where the enemies were. Made the game boring.

TheThan

2009-10-07, 01:32 PM

I too looked at MRMs for a while because they have good numbers, however that +1 to hit really puts a damper on things. It wouldn't seem like that big of a deal but they didn't seem to hit very often for me. Personally it would have made more sense to me to have a modified cluster hit table roll rather then a to-hit number, if anything it would seem like that many missiles would be more likely to even accidentally hit something. If you like the potential numbers on the MRMs also have a look at the HAGs...

I have a love/hate relationship with missiles in general.

They always seem pretty good, they can potentially deal a lot of damage, but that damage is spread out, so you end up with a sand blast effect. That’s OK, I can combo a catapult with something that can punch through armor like an Awesome and still be effective. The catapult softens up the target while the awesome finishes it off.

The problem is that I almost always roll crap for cluster hits. Yay I rolled three again, and then the few times I don’t roll crap, I’m using a light set of missiles so I’m still not doing a whole lot of damage. its quite frustrating. I typically play IS so streaks are hard to come by.

Ka-ther Fangfoot

2009-10-07, 02:45 PM

It seems to me from what I have seen playing MegaMek that you would want to use the missiles after your big guns, not first. Since I like the pre-clan inner sphere I was playing with lots of early mechs, and it seemed like ammo explosions and suchlike are what kills many mechs, and that comes from getting critical hits, which are on a per-hit basis, so you want to have lots of stuff hit once the armor is down, so missiles. Unless of course higher damage boosts the critical hit roll, in which case you do want the big guns to punch through.

Philistine

2009-10-07, 03:33 PM

Ultras can shoot faster and possibly jam.
Rotaries can shoot a whole lot faster, and get more and more likely to jam the faster you shoot.

The ranges/weights/sizes are a little different, too, but you probably noticed that.

Also: When an Ultra jams, that weapon is out of the fight. When a Rotary jams, the pilot has a chance to clear it.

Also also: The Rotary AC/2 finally provides a reason to load 45 rounds of ammunition!

TheThan

2009-10-07, 03:41 PM

yeah, that's the other option I forgot to mention. You potentially score alot of crits with missiles, due to cluster damage. I forgot to mention that. also the whole sand blast thing works well against lighter armored mechs, and not so much against the mechs with lots of armor.

Another thing that bugs me is that I’ve been looking through a lot of mechs lately and I’m a bit disturbed by the lack of firepower on a lot of assault mechs. When I think of an assault mech, I picture something with a scary amount of firepower, you something you can use to assault something. Yet I’ve found mechs that are half its tonnage that either meet or exceed the firepower of some of these assault mechs. Why would I want to bring a banshee 3Q (1 AC 20 and 1 small laser), when I could bring a bushwhacker and a whitworth for the same tonnage and have more firepower?

Timberwolf

2009-10-07, 04:20 PM

Artanis

2009-10-07, 07:34 PM

*pokes around for a while*

Huh.

Apparently, the source code for MechCommander 2 was released a few years ago, so it's free to d/l

...yeah, I may be gone for a while.

Winterwind

2009-10-07, 08:24 PM

Alex Knight

2009-10-07, 08:30 PM

In the case of the old Banshee, it's actually the 'Mech's fluff that it is considered a grotesquely underarmed mis-design by the commanders and pilots of the BattleTech universe themselves. So, the 'Mech being bad is quite deliberate.

And yet....it was better than the CGR-1A1 Charger. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, if you want an early-era Assault 'Mech, you want the AWS-8Q Awesome, STK-3F Stalker, or the HGN-733 Highlander. Those three machines scare the bajeebers out of opposing forces in their time.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-07, 08:40 PM

Ultra ACs can (don't have to though) shoot twice, generating twice the listed heat and using twice the ammo. A hit is resolved on the cluster hit table, you don't roll to hit twice. Rotary ACs can shoot up to 6 times, also using the cluster hit table, generating heat and using ammo for each shot fired. I thought a UAC fired twice with two shots, but the RAC used the appropriate SRM table to determine how many shots in the volley actually hit. So a RAC firing 4 shots would roll on the SRM/4 table to see how many of the shots actually landed.

Ultras have the highest range, normal in the middle and RACs the shortest. Any shots greater then 1 have a chance of jamming the gun. I forget the exact formula for figuring out jamming, but I know it is a 2 for 2 shots and I think it is a 4 if you shoot all 6 times.
You have to state how many shots you are firing before making the roll to hit. RAC's can only be in RAC/2 and RAC/5, at least in Tech 2, so they've both got some superior range. In particular, I like using a RAC/5 to replace the AC/20 on a Hunchback, and more ammo. Makes for a much more versatile mech which doesn't run out of ammo quite so quickly.

The SSW software has an option to export a 'Mech design (under file) in several different formats, including MegaMek.

I too looked at MRMs for a while because they have good numbers, however that +1 to hit really puts a damper on things. It wouldn't seem like that big of a deal but they didn't seem to hit very often for me. Personally it would have made more sense to me to have a modified cluster hit table roll rather then a to-hit number, if anything it would seem like that many missiles would be more likely to even accidentally hit something. If you like the potential numbers on the MRMs also have a look at the HAGs...

Yea, the MRM's at first blush look pretty awesome, but when you use them, they tend to not shine. The +1 really is a significantly deciding factor, just like the -2 on the Pulse Lasers make them exceedingly effective (at least for Clan, IS PL's are too short-ranged for them to really be worth as much).

Since you are using a lot of Clan tech, may I direct your missile needs to the ATM? It's basically a combination LRM/SRM/WTFBBQ all in one, depending on the ammo loads. You've got one which has a max range of 15, that does 2 damage a shot, one with a max range of 9 with 3 damage a shot, and a load with a max range of 27 that only does 1 damage a shot.

So, basically, you've got an SRM which does 3 damage instead of 2, and has a max load of 12 shots for a total of 36 damage from one weapon system, an SRM/12 with a range of 15, or an LRM/12 with the longest range of any non-artillery weapon in the game. With the same weapon.

Flexible tactics? Clan has them.

If you want to throw the Clanners a loop, have your IS guys run with C3 network set up, and watch the fun. Maybe even TAG, and Semi-Guided Missiles. They'll be wondering how your missile mechs are able to fire when they don't have LoS and how they are so darn accurate from so far out. At least until they figure out the trick and start packing Guardian ECM.

And yet....it was better than the CGR-1A1 Charger. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, if you want an early-era Assault 'Mech, you want the AWS-8Q Awesome, STK-3F Stalker, or the HGN-733 Highlander. Those three machines scare the bajeebers out of opposing forces in their time.

And the AS7-D Atlas. Never forget the Atlas. The Archer and Catapult are also staple missile support mechs from 3025. And the Locust is one of my favorite Light mechs in the game!

Upgrading 3025 mechs with Tech 2 equipment has been a hobby of mine for a while now. Some of 'em can get real nasty.

The Charger, for instance. Worst mech in the game. But with an XL Engine, Triple Strength Myomer, MASC, and a Hatchet... suddenly he gets a lot more dangerous.

Winterwind

2009-10-07, 08:48 PM

I thought a UAC fired twice with two shots, but the RAC used the appropriate SRM table to determine how many shots in the volley actually hit. So a RAC firing 4 shots would roll on the SRM/4 table to see how many of the shots actually landed.No, Erloas has it right; Ultra ACs roll on the SRM table as well.

leafman

2009-10-07, 08:49 PM

Wow just looking through the thread and I barely recognise anything you guys are talking about. I used to play Mechwarrior when it was Dark Age/Death From Above/Fire for Effect etc. series, I still have a pretty good size army of Highlanders (my favorite faction).
My favorite mech I had was the Joel Brane Koshi. The thing could jump in to melee range pretty fast, tear up on opposing light mechs and vehicles, and get out of range of heavy mechs like Atlas's and Jupiters in a single turn if you ran it. Plus if I remember right he had streak missles to fire around terrain.

Winterwind

2009-10-07, 08:54 PM

Philistine

2009-10-07, 09:57 PM

In the case of the old Banshee, it's actually the 'Mech's fluff that it is considered a grotesquely underarmed mis-design by the commanders and pilots of the BattleTech universe themselves. So, the 'Mech being bad is quite deliberate.

One has to wonder, then, why so many (or indeed any) of them were built, not to mention how they survived the Succession Wars - surely such a despised machine would be cannibalized the first time a unit ran short of spare parts for more favored mounts?

TheThan

2009-10-07, 10:40 PM

In the case of the old Banshee, it's actually the 'Mech's fluff that it is considered a grotesquely underarmed mis-design by the commanders and pilots of the BattleTech universe themselves. So, the 'Mech being bad is quite deliberate.

This made me chuckle, but at least there is a reason for it sucking.

And the AS7-D Atlas. Never forget the Atlas. The Archer and Catapult are also staple missile support mechs from 3025. And the Locust is one of my favorite Light mechs in the game!

Yeah, I’ve come across the AS7-D Atlas, I also found the AS7-K atlas model, replaces the AC20 with a gauss rifle, it also upgrades the medium lasers to ER large lasers and throws in an AMS for good measure. I haven’t tried to use it, but it looks good on paper.

I’ve got the catapult from the starter box, and I agree on the locust, it’s a great mech, though I love the panther. Seeing a clanner’s face when you declare your shooting with a PPC.

“A PPC? On a light mech no way!”

Priceless.

Alex Knight

2009-10-07, 11:57 PM

One has to wonder, then, why so many (or indeed any) of them were built, not to mention how they survived the Succession Wars - surely such a despised machine would be cannibalized the first time a unit ran short of spare parts for more favored mounts?

For the first: The BNC was one of the first 'Mechs built, circa 2443-2470, when the only other 'Mech was the Mackie. At that point, the Terran Hegemony ordered a first production run of 5,000.

For the second: The problem with cannibalizing the BNC is that the really important part of the machine, (Chassis and the Engine), can't be transferred over to other machines very easily. Having said that, prior to the House Steiner BNC-3S modification, surviving Banshees were regulated to backwater planetary militias.

Alex Knight

2009-10-07, 11:59 PM

RandomLunatic

2009-10-08, 12:30 AM

The AS7-D has never impressed me. For all the fluff about it inspiring fear and terror, it is just... underwhelms.

It is a 3/5/0 that has to get within 6 hexes of you before it can really do anything, which is already hugely limiting. When it finally gets to short range, it has an AC/20 and... a bit of filler (2 ML and SRM-6). Sure, it has a crud-ton of armor, and an AC/20, but I just expect a little more from a 100-tonner.

The AS7-K, like most Draconis 'Mechs from 3050, suffers greatly from the Combine's surplus of ER weaponry and lack of DHS. If you ignore one of the lasers, it makes a credible fire-support 'Mech (ERLL+Guass+LRM-20), bt I am still not getting my tonnage's (or C-Bill's) worth out of it. And the XL engine really cuts into the survivability.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-08, 12:42 AM

Yeah, I’ve come across the AS7-D Atlas, I also found the AS7-K atlas model, replaces the AC20 with a gauss rifle, it also upgrades the medium lasers to ER large lasers and throws in an AMS for good measure. I haven’t tried to use it, but it looks good on paper. The Gauss replacing the AC/20 is a good move. Upgrading the lasers without upgrading the Heat Sinks is dangerous, the AMS is a joke.

The Atlas is good at what it is designed to do. Close and kill. Eat damage until you can return fire. An SRM/6 is there not just to deal damage, but to try and take advantage of the fact that you've likely breached something if you hit with your AC/20, so you've got a chance of critting. Even 2 damage to IS can cause a critical hit which can destroy a mech. That is what the SRM/6 is there fore. Honestly, I'd put two of 'em in there, if it were up to me.

I’ve got the catapult from the starter box, and I agree on the locust, it’s a great mech, though I love the panther. Seeing a clanner’s face when you declare your shooting with a PPC.

“A PPC? On a light mech no way!”

Priceless.

Yea, but the Panther pays for being 'The Alleycat" (known for it's 'alley shots' on urban maps) by being slower than most mechs it's size. 4/6/4? That's Heavy or even Assault speed. Most of how a Light mech survives is by running from bigger and nastier things. An Alleycat can't, except in terrain where jumping is the quickest option (urban or rough terrain).

They're good, don't get me wrong, but don't make the mistake of thinking it is invincible. It's a Glass Cannon, only it's one punch really isn't all that much, unless you get a lucky headshot.

SparkMandriller

2009-10-08, 02:01 AM

Seeing a clanner’s face when you declare your shooting with a PPC.

“A PPC? On a light mech no way!

adder.jpg

Clan equipment is crazy.

Winterwind

2009-10-08, 07:35 AM

I’ve got the catapult from the starter box, and I agree on the locust, it’s a great mech, though I love the panther. Seeing a clanner’s face when you declare your shooting with a PPC.

“A PPC? On a light mech no way!”

Priceless.Considering the Clans have a light 'Mech with dual ER PPCs, targeting computer and, if I remember correctly, 6/9 movement in the form of the aforementioned Adder, I'm not sure they will be quite as impressed as you think. :smalltongue:

Artanis

2009-10-08, 10:33 AM

The Panther is starting to sound a little like the Hollander: take a big friggin' gun and put it on the smallest mech you can.

Erloas

2009-10-08, 01:38 PM

The AS7-D has never impressed me. For all the fluff about it inspiring fear and terror, it is just... underwhelms.

If you put the Atlas D in the context of what else was available it is much more inspiring. Comparing it to Clan 'Mechs and it doesn't have much, compare it to other 3025 era 'Mechs and its a lot more of a threat.

In that era the range isn't nearly the issue it would be later because there aren't a lot of high range weapons, at least not of a lot of power. PPCs are great but highly heat intensive and few designs could shoot many with only single heat sinks. There are a lot of LRMs around, but we ran the numbers in the previous thread and LRM20s take something like 8 tons of ammo to reliably get into structure on an Atlas and even missile boats like the Catapult don't carry over 4 tons.
So a very wide range of 'Mechs of the era can't down an Atlas without closing into range of its weapons.

While it is slow, assault 'Mechs of that era didn't have the alternate engine types to get much more speed and even heavies aren't generally much faster.

TheThan

2009-10-08, 03:40 PM

Yeah, I know the sentiment about clan tech.

The thing is that most people who don’t what its got won’t see it coming, don’t see it coming. They may expect to see heavy firepower like that on a light clan mech, but not really on a light IS mech. the mech is a glass cannon, but if you use it right, it can deal a lot more damage than it should before it goes down.

About the heat sink trouble on the atlas, that is a concern but with good heat management it won’t be too much of a problem. The mech can fight at all ranges, so it’s hard to get away from. Either you eat the gauss rifle and missiles or close in and brave the lasers. Anyway both the AS7-D and the AS7-K are good mechs, it depends on which you prefer, I’d take either.

I’ve noticed a trend with a lot of people, they want to be able to Alpha Strike every round and not worry about heat issues. The heat rules are there for a reason, that reason is probably so you can’t just run up and alpha strike everything every turn. It forces you to make tactical decisions with your mechs, learn how to manage your heat. If there wasn’t heat rules, then there would be no point to not run up and alpha strike everything every turn. That would get awful lame, awful fast.

Ka-ther Fangfoot

2009-10-08, 06:59 PM

I find it funny that you are talking about panthers. I just finished reading a battletech book where about half the mechs appearing were panthers. Good times. :smallamused:

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-08, 09:55 PM

The Panther is starting to sound a little like the Hollander: take a big friggin' gun and put it on the smallest mech you can.

The Hussar can also be said to adhere to this building philosophy as well.

NeoVid

2009-10-09, 01:40 AM

I used to play Mechwarrior when it was Dark Age/Death From Above/Fire for Effect etc. series, I still have a pretty good size army of Highlanders (my favorite faction).

I didn't really get any new stuff after DFA, but I kept playing up until the game died. I was primarily a Republic player, and a major believer in artillery. I always made sure to have two arty with armor-piercing on the field, so I could pick out the biggest, meanest thing on the other side of the board and drop a shell on it every turn. The amount of frustration this caused was a beautiful thing.

Oh, another thing that caused frustration: Several incidents when I gutted a 200+ point assault 'mech with my 90 point ForestryMech from the first set. Good attack rating with a Hand-to-Hand weapon and bonus damage on melee meant I could do 7 damage with one hit.

I have a major tendency to support the good guy factions like the FedComs and the Republic, even though peace is always doomed to fail in the BattleTech universe.

Hey, are there classic stats out there for the Dark Age era 'mechs? I'd even like to see unofficial ones.

As for classic battletech, my single favorite 'mech has always been the Marauder. The Thunderbolt was a close second, but the MAD-3r seemed to have everything, back in the day. Course, that was 3025 in 3rd edition, so how do those machines stack up now, more informed players?

Oh, wait, another one I just thought of: my favorite to actually pilot was the Sunder (Prime), which I always used at Virtual World (PS: about VW BTech: #$%*ing Thor v6!!!!!). 6 Medium lasers, ER PPC, and a Gauss seemed like everything I needed. How did the Inner Sphere Omnimechs turn out?

Damn, I wish I had been able to keep up with the novels. Lost track about 3 or so before the old setting ended.

Erloas

2009-10-09, 09:34 AM

Hey, are there classic stats out there for the Dark Age era 'mechs? I'd even like to see unofficial ones.

As far as I know all the Dark Age 'Mechs were just for the Clixs system. So I don't think all the designs would carry over directly to the old system. I also believe many of 'Mechs in Dark Age are simply direct transfers of 'Mech designs from CBT anyway. Things like a forestry 'Mech are easy enough to build using CBT rules, they have the weapons and everything in the Tech Manual, but they generally just don't have the range/speed/survivability/offense to be much of a real threat to 'Mechs designed for combat.

Of course I don't really know much directly about the Dark Age stuff.

As for classic battletech, my single favorite 'mech has always been the Marauder. The Thunderbolt was a close second, but the MAD-3r seemed to have everything, back in the day. Course, that was 3025 in 3rd edition, so how do those machines stack up now, more informed players?

If you are playing 3025 Era the MAD-3R are still a very formidable 'Mech. If you are playing Clan Invasion and later (3050+) then it has all the weaknesses inherent in 3025 compared to later. Single Heatsinks, no advanced armor or structure (to free up weight), and weapons that are shorter range then the new stuff. There are however plenty of later era Marauder variants which are still very dangerous. Which isn't to say 3025 designs aren't still dangerous, they just can't stand out in a post-clan setting.

Artanis

2009-10-09, 11:36 AM

I’ve noticed a trend with a lot of people, they want to be able to Alpha Strike every round and not worry about heat issues. The heat rules are there for a reason, that reason is probably so you can’t just run up and alpha strike everything every turn. It forces you to make tactical decisions with your mechs, learn how to manage your heat. If there wasn’t heat rules, then there would be no point to not run up and alpha strike everything every turn. That would get awful lame, awful fast.

That actually happened in MechCommander 1 multiplayer. You could instagib pretty much anything if you loaded up enough LRMs, and big Clan mechs could hold a whole lot of LRMs. Luckily, EVERYBODY agreed to the "no boats" rule, which limited how many of a given weapon you could put on a mech.

RandomLunatic

2009-10-09, 11:42 AM

As far as I know all the Dark Age 'Mechs were just for the Clixs system. So I don't think all the designs would carry over directly to the old system. I also believe many of 'Mechs in Dark Age are simply direct transfers of 'Mech designs from CBT anyway. Things like a forestry 'Mech are easy enough to build using CBT rules, they have the weapons and everything in the Tech Manual, but they generally just don't have the range/speed/survivability/offense to be much of a real threat to 'Mechs designed for combat.

Of course I don't really know much directly about the Dark Age stuff.

Actually, a few years back FanPro did run off a small book with Record Sheets for Dark Ages 'Mechs, vehicles, and infantry units (armored and conventional). IIRC it was called Record Sheets: Dark Ages.

It featured such gems as the flatly illegal JES II missile carrier (violated the minimum engine weight requirement of hovers-how they got HMVee to print it I have no idea), to the 80-million C-bill Zeus variants (Before you ask, liberal application of Level 3 Tech-400 XXL engine, XL Gyro, X-Pulse lasers, one variant even uses improved Jump Jets for a 5/8/8 movement curve)

TheThan

2009-10-09, 11:55 AM

Mech warrior: dark age
My has a good sized republic force he rocks pretty hard with. lets see, he’s got a ghost, two cougars, the solaris VII Diashi of doom (the all black one, if I recall its republic and it costs 351 points to field) and a couple other mechs. He’s also got two 41 point PO II heavy tanks that seem to rock a lot more than their point value would indicate. He’s got an assortment of elite infantry, some other ground vehicles, including his seven inch drift “banana shot” artillery pieces and a few vtols.

He’s also got a house Steiner force he doesn’t use that much, its small but elite. I typically use clan Nova Cat, mainly because I have enough of it to get by and we’ve got one of the mechs I remember from the pc games (the nova cat, go figure).

It’s a great game, too bad that Wizkids decided to let the game die.

Lets see, my favorite mech would have to be the bushwhacker. Sure it’s only a medium mech, but it’s just a solid design, it doesn’t overheat, it can engage at nearly any range, packs a whallop with that AC10 and large laser, and it cools cool (not to mention it looks plausible for a real world mech design). All in all the thing is just cool.

So far this is what we have for classic battle tech:

[Clan]
Ryoken
Cougar
Thor
Loki
Timber wolf
Blood asp
Puma
Koshi
Black python
Nova cat

[The to buy list]
Vulture
Griffin IIC
Daishi

[Inner sphere]
Battle master
Bushwhacker
Rifleman

[The to buy list]
Marauder
War hammer
Orion

We have also have the mechs from the Introduction box set which are (for those who don’t know):

Assassin
Atlas
Awesome
Banshee
Catapult
Cicada
Clint
Commando
Cyclops
Dervish
Dragon
Enforcer
Grasshopper
Hermes II
Hunchback
Jagermech
Jenner
Panther
Quickdraw
Spider
Trebuchet
Vindicator
Whitworth
Zeus

So we actually do have more IS than clan, but my friends don’t like plastic models. So they don’t get used that much. Some of my friends are going to by buying (if they haven’t yet) their own models so we won’t have to share them. We’ll probably get together and play this weekend, think I’ll bring out the banshee or the atlas since I’ve printed out some upgraded record sheets (3050 sheets).

Erloas

2009-10-09, 01:54 PM

So we actually do have more IS than clan, but my friends don’t like plastic models. So they don’t get used that much. Some of my friends are going to by buying (if they haven’t yet) their own models so we won’t have to share them. We’ll probably get together and play this weekend, think I’ll bring out the banshee or the atlas since I’ve printed out some upgraded record sheets (3050 sheets).

As for the plastic models, I wasn't all that impressed with them from the starter box. I still use them because it is what I have, but I'm trying to get more metal models.

As for what I have (not counting the starter box)
In no particular order:
Warhammer
Ryoken
Timber Wolf
Vulture
Pouncer
Marauder
Crab
King Crab
Lightray
Scorpion
Locust
Firefly
Hatchetman
Ti T'sang
Rifleman
Stilleto
Mercury
Blackjack
Sagittaire
I know there is also another quad legged name I'm forgetting, and maybe 1 other light 'Mech, an Osiris perhaps)

I've used most if not all of them at least once though I'm far from being done painting them.

The Cicada is a design I'm really starting to like. Not a real powerhouse but its generally a great addition to any lance.

TheThan

2009-10-09, 02:07 PM

As for the plastic models, I wasn't all that impressed with them from the starter box. I still use them because it is what I have, but I'm trying to get more metal models.

As for what I have (not counting the starter box)
In no particular order:
Warhammer
Ryoken
Timber Wolf
Vulture
Pouncer
Marauder
Crab
King Crab
Lightray
Scorpion
Locust
Firefly
Hatchetman
Ti T'sang
Rifleman
Stilleto
Mercury
Blackjack
Sagittaire
I know there is also another quad legged name I'm forgetting, and maybe 1 other light 'Mech, an Osiris perhaps)

I've used most if not all of them at least once though I'm far from being done painting them.

The Cicada is a design I'm really starting to like. Not a real powerhouse but its generally a great addition to any lance.

Yeah they aren’t the best plastic models I’ve seen, but we have them, might as well use them. Though I suspect my bro is going to buy a metal catapult some time in the future.

Erloas

2009-10-11, 09:25 AM

Well I had a game last night, 1v1v1 at 3000 BV each. Awesome+Locust, Catapult+Hunchback, and Warhawk. I picked the Warhawk because I wanted to see how a big clan 'Mech would do against superior numbers (becuase I haven't actually ran Clan much) and because someone already took the dual plasma rifle Catapult I wanted to use.
I had the 3 plasma cannon, ER PPC, LPL and SRM-6, with TC. The 3 plasma cannons would have been nice if most of the units would have had heat problems, as it was it was a moot point on 3 of the 4 opposing 'Mechs. Though between the plasma rifles, plasma cannons and an Awesome with 3 ER PPCs we managed to get the Awesome up to 20-25ish heat twice, shutting it down in the process once.

The locust was brought down in a single round by the LPL and SRM-6, with two CT hits both criting on gyros.
I had the hunchback fairly low and was running in to try to drop it to the ground in a single round, knowing I was going to eat an AC20 in the process, which I could take in any location except the right arm and not go internal. I get my hits and take out a gyro and the Hunchback falls to the ground at my feet. He rolls and hits his AC20, rolls location and hits head... all over in a single round.
The awesome had taken a lot of damage between me and the catapult and was getting pretty thin on armor all around. The catapult had taken a fair bit of damage but wasn't in any immediate threat of death. The catapult though managed to get on a hill beside the awesome and kick it in the head.

So the catapult+hunchback held the field, both still alive, though the hunchback wasn't in good shape.

The single Clan 'Mech would have probably done a lot better if I hadn't went with the Plasma Cannon varient (the only other Warhawk I had printed and could find was 3195, so over our limit) because I didn't have the firepower or manuverability to take advantage of the utility and issues brought up by the plasma cannons. It didn't help that my opponents didn't have heat issues anyway and that I didn't roll well with them when I really needed to (like hitting 1 of 3 on 6s). I could have easily just melted a few of the 'Mechs down the old fashioned way (with energy weapons rather then plasma) if I had more direct firepower.
The LPL is just crazy though, its just got insane range for having 1 to 1 heat to damage and being -2 to hit. Of course we've already went over the brokenness of pulse lasers.

TheThan

2009-10-11, 03:22 PM

I played two games last night

The first was a 2vs 1, the teams were one nova cat and one madcat vs my bushwhacker and rifleman. So I was totally out gunned, out tonned and out Bved. Oh well, such is my fault for choosing such a bad matchup (should have gone with the awesome and catapult combo I though up).

I’m frustrated with this rifleman, out of my ten AC10 shots; I seem to consistently hit with half of them. Basically every time I fire I get one hit with only one of the auto-cannons, needless to say it was a waste of potential. The bushwhacker performed fine, but under whelming compared to the ridiculous madcat.

The next game I played was a 3vs3. It was a Thor (me), Loki and an Orion vs a Zeus, a nova cat and a madcat (ppc version). The zeus got popped fast by the orion, which then ganged up with the loki to take down the nova cat. I took some shots from the madcat but eventually we took him down as well, despite loosing both the clan mechs to the freaking madcat.

We also played a bunch of mechwarrior four: mercenaries on the pc as well. I decked out an atlas with max engines and armor, and still had enough weight left for an LBXAC-20, two ER large lasers and two sets of streak SRM-6. Which is pretty good firepower, but still not enough for dealing with double and triple LBXAC-20s, ER PPCs and the like. But still it was fun to out run heavy and assault mechs in an atlas, it was still slow compared to a lot of the smaller mechs, and it’s cornering ability sucks hard. I also got to use my bushwhacker O’ doom, and a few other things. I decked out a Daishi with two rotary AC 5s, and a few other guns, it proved mostly effective, you just can’t use just the rotaries, since they do jam. But anyway we had fun, that’s the important thing.

EleventhHour

2009-10-11, 05:37 PM

I'm having way too much fun with the Solaris Skunkworks program...

Maybe we can start some sort of online gaming for it? It wouldn't be too hard with a grid and some sprites/markers...

>.>

Timberwolf

2009-10-11, 05:58 PM

I wondered how long it would take you to find here EleventhHour :smallbiggrin:

We should totally get some megamek going to use all this SSW stuff or, if people get the Mektek MW4 mercenaries add on pack (http://www.mektek.net/) and the Mekmatch patch that lets you hit the new online game finder (since microsoft kindly shut down the old one), I know a good server we can hit, especially if some of my old team mates are about.

I need to reinstall Megamek (and remember how to play...)

For Kerensky and McKenna !!

PS- The MW 4 Atlas there - try running it in a standoff role - for the weight there, you could swap out the LBX 20 for a Clan Gauss, swap the ERLL for ERPPC and lose the SSRM for the extra weight of the PPCs and some heat sinks. On the sheer weight of metal it can sling, the MW4 Atlas will always lose out up close compared with most other Assault mechs because it has room for only 1 big Autocannon.

On the other hand... the Victor can be turned into an armour shredding up close and personal terror (although not my fav here...) 2 CLBX 20, 2 S6SRM and I forget how many er meds along with jump jets. That will actually out gun that Atlas up close (for 20 tons less) and has jump jets and better manoevrability. The Mad Cat Mk 2 with 2 CLBX 20 and 3 CLBX 10 is even nicer - 2 alpha strikes will kill a Daishi - and the Daishi is probably the terror of them all with the ridiculous loads that can have.

EleventhHour

2009-10-11, 06:04 PM

I wondered how long it would take you to find here EleventhHour :smallbiggrin:

:smallwink:

PS- The MW 4 Atlas there - try running it in a standoff role - for the weight there, you could swap out the LBX 20 for a Clan Gauss, swap the ERLL for ERPPC and lose the SSRM for the extra weight of the PPCs and some heat sinks. On the sheer weight of metal it can sling, the MW4 Atlas will always lose out up close compared with most other Assault mechs because it has room for only 1 big Autocannon.

I have a preference for Particle Cannons, and long range blasting ; one of the best being the Atlas with three Clan ER PPCs, and a Clan Gauss. You can core light-medium mechs in a partial alpha-strike, and do serious damage to bigger ones. Just watch out for certain mechs. There's random glitches in mine when I try to peg a Mad Dog ("Vulture") with this combo, in that it doesn't take nearly the amount of damage it should. The Fafnir (<- I think it's spelled like that...) is one hell of a beast, though.

Online would be nice, but my copy refuses to install on my new laptop. Still poking at it.

Timberwolf

2009-10-11, 06:09 PM

Vista right ?

If you poke around the forums of the site I linked up there, I believe they've at least managed to help people get things running on Vista.

If it isn't, then, you never know, they may have encountered it as well, that sites been running for years.

(and if we're talking personal favourite configs, I still can't beat by C Born with CGR, ERPPC, ERLL and 2 LRM 15)

TheThan

2009-10-11, 06:27 PM

PS- The MW 4 Atlas there - try running it in a standoff role - for the weight there, you could swap out the LBX 20 for a Clan Gauss, swap the ERLL for ERPPC and lose the SSRM for the extra weight of the PPCs and some heat sinks. On the sheer weight of metal it can sling, the MW4 Atlas will always lose out up close compared with most other Assault mechs because it has room for only 1 big Autocannon.

Yeah, I noticed that right off. While I could out run them… they could nearly one shot me despite maximized armor on that thing. Frustrating.

As for online gaming, I’ve tried Mektek out and while I got it to run, I couldn’t quite wrap my head around how to use it. I'm willing to give it another try though.

Though I imagine a classic battletech forum game would be quite doable. Just need a map and some sprite markers that are edible. Its not like the forums doesn’t have a dice rolling program.

EleventhHour

2009-10-11, 06:32 PM

Well, I found Mech4 : Vengance. :smalltongue: I'll continue the hunt for Mech4 : Mercs, later.

We totally should run a forums game of battletech, it'd let us try out all those mixed up custom mechs built with Skunkworks. (It can't be just me that's been having a massive amount of fun with it...)

Timberwolf

2009-10-11, 06:39 PM

As for online gaming, I’ve tried Mektek out and while I got it to run, I couldn’t quite wrap my head around how to use it. I'm willing to give it another try though.

Though I imagine a classic battletech forum game would be quite doable. Just need a map and some sprite markers that are edible. Its not like the forums doesn’t have a dice rolling program.

What was up with the Mektek patch ? Did you remember to get the Microsoft patch first and then run Mekteks and then run the patch that updates the registry to find the MekMatch server ? Once you've got it installed, it's just the same as running your normal install of Mercs.

We can run a campaign using Megamek I believe (the CBT online game that coincidently, SSW exports to so we can use our creations there).

TheThan

2009-10-11, 07:41 PM

What was up with the Mektek patch ? Did you remember to get the Microsoft patch first and then run Mekteks and then run the patch that updates the registry to find the MekMatch server ? Once you've got it installed, it's just the same as running your normal install of Mercs.

We can run a campaign using Megamek I believe (the CBT online game that coincidently, SSW exports to so we can use our creations there).

Oops misspoke there

I meant the Megamek program. I haven’t tried the Mektek mechwarrior patch.
Sorry for the confusion.

Erloas

2009-10-11, 09:13 PM

Well hopefully the MekTek release of MW4 will be out soon. Once it is I'll get some practice and see about playing against some of you.

For MegaMek, well I'm up for attempts to play as well. I've used it a few times when I was first learning the game, but I haven't actually used it to play against another person. So long as the servers are set up well it shouldn't be a problem.

For a play-by-post game, I'm up for that as well. We would need a good method of having a map though because it will be hard to have a new upload for each person's move.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-11, 09:18 PM

Yanno, a lot of people lurve the Clan ERPPC's. I will admit, 15 damage is pretty sweet, but I'm a bigger fan of the Clan Large Pulse Lasers.

First off, it's not as heat intensive. 10 heat is easier to manage in multiples than 15 heat.

Second, it only looses a max of 3 hexes, 23 vs 20, and has a -2 on your attack checks. Worth it? Hells yes.

And it's still a very respectable 10 damage, which CAN decapitate a mech on a lucky shot.

Sure, the damage output might be lower, but so is the heat buildup, it's still enough for that lucky Headshot, and more accurate. It's also almost half the BV (265 vs 412)

Winterwind

2009-10-11, 09:24 PM

I've used MegaMek quite a few times, including for games against friends of mine.
If anyone needs some help with it, I'll gladly help however I can. Oh, and I would like to participate in these games too, if possible. :smallcool:

EleventhHour

2009-10-11, 09:27 PM

{table=head] X | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
A | | | | | | | | | | |
B | | | | | | | | | |
C | |M | | | | | | | |
D | | | | | | |Sh | | |
E | | | | | | | | | |
F | |S | | | | | | | |
G | | | |E | | | | | |
H | | | | | | | | | |
I | | | | | | | | | |
[/table]

Map! :smallbiggrin:

We could use one of these for declaring movements, and then have one person update the actual bitmap of it.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-11, 11:08 PM

EleventhHour

2009-10-11, 11:14 PM

HamHam

2009-10-11, 11:31 PM

Anyone want to talk about the storyline?

Personally I've generally hated everything after Twilight of the Clans. I think 4th Succession War is actually my favorite time period.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-11, 11:32 PM

Hm... Alright. It's still possible to do with Bitmaps... I guess we just skip the simplified version.

We could use something like this ;
http://www.balloonhq.com/column/rouse/aug05/2HexGrid_01.gif

Then use the top/left Hex's for the letter/numbers... And use a bigger ones for improved clarity...

Just realized that it would be a waste of space, and easier to label the Hexes themselves. :smalltongue:

kinda hard to do on a picture hosted somewhere else... someone's gonna have to whip out a graphics editor every turn.

Anyone want to talk about the storyline?

Personally I've generally hated everything after Twilight of the Clans. I think 4th Succession War is actually my favorite time period.

I like Post-Fall during the Succession Wars in the 3025 era. You've got five major factions duking it out, winner takes all. You've got political intrigue, skirmishing, all-out invasions, a post-apocalyptic feel even though it's still futuristic tech (not easy to do when your 'backslid technology' includes hundred ton mechs), and a very gritty, dirty realism covering it all.

EleventhHour

2009-10-11, 11:36 PM

kinda hard to do on a picture hosted somewhere else... someone's gonna have to whip out a graphics editor every turn.

I know, I know. I was just grabbing an example.

...And I've never heard Microsoft Paint referred to as a Graphics Editor. :smallbiggrin:

But really, it shouldn't be too much trouble for one person. They keep an original of the grid (with the hex labels) And then they put the circle/sprite into the indicated new position each turn. Maybe colouring the straight-ahead side red or something, just for quick referencing.

::

I vote for the Clan Invasion time frame, because ;

A.) I joined the series in the MW2, and I'm a clanner at heart.
B.) I'd love to lead the IS mechs against the Crusaders. (Wolf Dragoons, forever!)
C.) The Clans have some great tech, but it isn't common enough for everyone to be stocking it on like mad.

Joran

2009-10-12, 12:23 AM

The basic Banshee is well known as being a bastion of suck albeit a very, very early bastion of suck. They kinda fixed it though by making a version with 2 PPCs and a Gauss Rifle.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Banshee

This was the version of the Banshee I fell in love with. It may have been because of a lucky Gauss Rifle shot to the head of an enemy mech. Good times.

Only later, when I started reading the source books, did I realize the original Banshee sucked.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-12, 01:03 AM

I know, I know. I was just grabbing an example.

...And I've never heard Microsoft Paint referred to as a Graphics Editor. :smallbiggrin: I've never heard MS Paint referred to as anything other than Garbage. I was referring to GIMP/Photoshop

But really, it shouldn't be too much trouble for one person. They keep an original of the grid (with the hex labels) And then they put the circle/sprite into the indicated new position each turn. Maybe colouring the straight-ahead side red or something, just for quick referencing. Be an awful lot of pics to keep track of, but yea, I guess I can see your point.

I vote for the Clan Invasion time frame, because ;

A.) I joined the series in the MW2, and I'm a clanner at heart.
B.) I'd love to lead the IS mechs against the Crusaders. (Wolf Dragoons, forever!)
C.) The Clans have some great tech, but it isn't common enough for everyone to be stocking it on like mad.

That was when I felt the game well and truly began to go downhill. Perhaps it is because I was at the Origins convention which unveiled the Clan mechs, and was one of the ones who discovered that their PPC's had significantly better range than ours the hard way... and never forgave them for that curb-stompin'.

However, if that is your wish, I suppose I could manage. Somehow. I will be playing IS, though.

Wolf's Dragoons cheat. They get Clan Tech, *AND* use IS exclusive tech. Pick one or the other. Not both.

Timberwolf

2009-10-12, 07:43 AM

I know, I know. I was just grabbing an example.

...And I've never heard Microsoft Paint referred to as a Graphics Editor. :smallbiggrin:

But really, it shouldn't be too much trouble for one person. They keep an original of the grid (with the hex labels) And then they put the circle/sprite into the indicated new position each turn. Maybe colouring the straight-ahead side red or something, just for quick referencing.

::

I vote for the Clan Invasion time frame, because ;

A.) I joined the series in the MW2, and I'm a clanner at heart.
B.) I'd love to lead the IS mechs against the Crusaders. (Wolf Dragoons, forever!)
C.) The Clans have some great tech, but it isn't common enough for everyone to be stocking it on like mad.

If we use megamek to actually play out the games with (it's too useful to not be used if anyone asked me...) and just use a map of the inner sphere with suitable jumplanes on to take our turns, I think that would work alright.

Oh and I'm bang up for the Clan invasion as, like EleventhHour, I am a child of Kerensky rather than one of you freebirth Spheroid dogs. My only regret is that the Snow Ravens were not a full on invading clan (although if Megamek did space battles...) so I will have to go with my second favourites - dibs on the Ghost Bears !

EleventhHour

2009-10-12, 07:57 AM

Wolf's Dragoons cheat. They get Clan Tech, *AND* use IS exclusive tech. Pick one or the other. Not both.

It was a joke... Since the Dragoons are clanners (Wolf Clan, too!) on the IS side...

Erloas

2009-10-12, 10:19 AM

If we are going to do a play-by-post system with a more RPG feel that could work. If we want to play games of MegaMek then we just need to play some games and not try make a big story with it. That was what we tried in the Vassal/40k thing and it ended up dieing before it even got started.
Although an arena style tournament with MegaMek might work.

Someone did try to run an RPG style game of CBT but it never got out of the gathering interest stage either.

I could try running a play-by-post campaign of sorts, but I would probably only do it with me (as basically a DM) with 2-3 other people and not more then 1-2 'Mechs a piece otherwise it would take forever for a game to get anywhere and its low enough numbers to find people that will actually stay with it. I'm up for running any era.

Winterwind

2009-10-12, 12:52 PM

Well, if you want a hex grid with a simple coordinate system, just use letters for diagonal rows and numbers for vertical rows.

Like this:
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee90/Winterwind83/Others/2HexGrid_02.gif
(for example, the X is in hex G5, the O is in hex I7)

Though personally, I'd rather just use MegaMek. A lot simplier this way.

And I'd rather have the clans, too. MechWarrior 2 was my first contact with BattleTech, and though I know now how ridiculously wrong that notion is, they became what BattleTech was all about for me.

TheThan

2009-10-12, 01:05 PM

I can whip something up in photoshop. I also have some map packs I can upload and post. That might be better, as I won’t have to sit here and draw a map. Each player (or better yet one designated player per team… if we’re doing teams) can edit their movement and facing accordingly.

EleventhHour

2009-10-12, 01:18 PM

Err... Maybe I'm silly but...

I can't manage to download the MekTek (MW4 Mercs) patch. :smallconfused: One link brings me to the forum Index, the other has a Gateway 404 errorr...

I'm silly. Figured it out. :smallbiggrin:

Other than that : Yay for online board gaming! :smalltongue:

Winterwind

2009-10-12, 01:44 PM

EleventhHour

2009-10-12, 01:50 PM

Is 0.34.8 the newest version?

Or does anyone have a preference on one?

Winterwind

2009-10-12, 01:54 PM

I think the newest one is 0.35.7. At least, the official homepage (http://megamek.sourceforge.net/) seems to indicate so.

Erloas

2009-10-12, 02:09 PM

Oh yeah... isn't there an export and save file system in MegaMek... Would it be possible to have someone keep an official copy of the game, people submit moves, the host makes the moves and uploads the save-file for everyone else to open and look at. That would also take care of rolling, shot designations, record sheet damages, etc.

I believe MegaMek also already has a hex designation system that we can use (probably the same one the official sheets have, but I don't know it off the top of my head). The hoster can take a screenshot at the beginning of each turn and right before shot deceleration and upload those.

I believe the official hex designation system is the columns are labeled in number order and the rows are labeled also in number order starting from the first whole/usable hex. So CCRR, of course it would be easy enough to use letters for one of the sides so long as you don't go with a very big map.

In Winterwind's picture that would make X in hex 0504 and O in hex 0707.

The aforementioned person I used to play with has a really neat system coded on his website for playing where each person logs in and can make their moves and he uploads a new map twice a week. Each team makes half their moves, he updates the map, each team makes the other half of their moves, he updates the map again, then firing is entered with his system and he resolves everything and updates all the record sheets. Each 'Mech could enter several alternative moves based on what someone did before them, so someone might put 1st priority if target X moves within range use my jump jets to land behind them, if they can't then run to hex Y.
Unfortunately I believe it is something he made himself and I don't know if we could get a copy of it and I wouldn't know where to host it anyway. It sounded like it was fairly labor intensive on his side at times, but it worked really well. I can ask him though if people are interested.

I have no problems running Clan era 'Mechs. At least to start out with though I probably would like to stick to "book" designs to keep people from getting too cheesy and to make it fairer to people without as much experience. I would probably also exclude the jumping pulse laser 'Mechs (no more then X total damage from pulse weapons) and at least for the first game excluding pilots better then 3/4 to try and keep light and medium 'Mechs viable.

On a different note... I decided to take a look at the official forums for a little bit today and read a post on how to speed up play and they didn't do quite a few things that I thought were standard practice. First being to put a small die by each 'Mech as you move them to mark that they have been moved as well as the total movement modifier of that 'Mech (such as a 4 if they ran 8 hexes and ended up in a light forest). The other was writing down all of your weapon attack to-hit numbers and their target on a sheet of paper so you can roll and resolve all your weapon attacks without having to figure each one up as you go (and stops people from changing targets or deciding not to alpha-strike for +15 heat when their first PPC blast hits the 'Mech's head and destroys it, which was the topic of another thread)

edit: the only reason to not play with MegaMek directly is that we live all across the globe. It would be easy enough for some of us to get a game going, but getting more then 2-3 people on at the same time and with the hours it takes to play the chances of getting a game going and actually finishing it are very low. It would be the best option for many 1 on 1 games though. It also wouldn't support any sort of scenario structure either. A great option for an arena style tournament though.

Matthew

2009-10-12, 02:20 PM

I really think MegaMek is the better option. Nobody has to draw anything at all, the results arrive at the opponent's side immediately, it automatically keeps track of the status of all 'Mechs, and it takes care of the rules and dice rolling as well.

A game that would take a month by PbP would be finished in one hour in MegaMek.

The only reason I could possibly see to go for PbP rather than MegaMek would be if people wanted to simultaneously engage in PbP roleplaying.

Indeed; I run it once a week against a couple of mates. Usually it takes us a good deal longer than an hour, but we do tend to play until the bitter end. We have been trying to figure out how to run a campaign without resorting to somebody have to build a "shell" or whatever, but no luck so far.

Winterwind

2009-10-12, 02:24 PM

EleventhHour

2009-10-12, 02:44 PM

Erloas

2009-10-12, 02:46 PM

Yes, that would work, but why do it in such a complicated fashion? MegaMek supports perfectly normal multiplayer, too, after all...

Also, what do you mean by "official copy"? The game is free, everybody can download it.

...

Mmmm, that's quite true. Though personally, I find the idea of an arena/round robin 1v1 tournament quite appealing. :smallwink:
By official copy I mean who ever is running the pbp game. Everyone can download a copy and see it and make their moves or declare their fire and send it back to the person running the game and they can enter everyone's actions into the same copy and then resolve everything. Otherwise you have to pass the saved game between one player and the next.

I will have to wait until I get home to load up MegaMek and see what the options are.

While straight up MegaMeks could be fun it does make it hard if not impossible to do any scenarios rather then a straight up fight. And of the 4 people that I know the locations of that wanted to play there are 2 in the USA and 2 in Europe, which makes it very hard to find times to get a game going. I played DAOC with quite a few people from Denmark and Sweden and we were lucky to see each other for more then maybe an hour a day during the week and that was only if they stayed up fairly late and I got on as soon as I got home from work.

Erloas

2009-10-12, 02:49 PM

Anyone up for a quick game right now, so I can learn a bit more about this thing? :smallbiggrin:

(I was trying to play against the bots... but they just keep deploying right next to me. :smallconfused: )

On the page where you add the bots is a section for deployment areas. You can limit each player to only be able to deploy in a certain section of the map, you put yourself in NE corner and limit the bots to SW corner or something like that. Or you could just pick 'Mechs with piles of MLs or AC20s and tear them to pieces.

Winterwind

2009-10-12, 02:50 PM

Anyone up for a quick game right now, so I can learn a bit more about this thing? :smallbiggrin:I can't today, sorry, other obligations. :smallwink:

(I was trying to play against the bots... but they just keep deploying right next to me. :smallconfused: )When you set up a new game, go to the Configure Game tab, and the second field should show you Starting Positions. Select the bot from the list and click the Change Start button below the list. Limit the bot to some starting zone (like North), and set up yourself elsewhere.

EleventhHour

2009-10-12, 03:17 PM

Whoo! ...finished my first game. A devestating loss. :smallbiggrin:

I think the least lucky mech on my side was the Uziel. First turn, I saw a chance to setup a little ambush, so I went to dodge it behind a building a bit up the road from my deployment. Appearntly, he wasn't a great pilot, and tripped.

Next turn, he got back on his feet just in time to get head-shotted by two clan PPCs. Boom.

Timberwolf

2009-10-12, 03:34 PM

I've had a go at the scenarios, enjoyed the Jade Falcon Trial of Position one

(grrrr, damn JF's)

Killed a pouncer and a nova but died to the final nova.

I LOVE CLAN TECH, WHEEEEEEE !!!!!

At some point, I'll have to try and work out how to set up a custom game, using a custom force (ie, say I want 2 Madcats and a C Born) or actually play someone equally as newbie / very patient with da newb.

Winterwind

2009-10-12, 03:48 PM

At some point, I'll have to try and work out how to set up a custom game, using a custom force (ie, say I want 2 Madcats and a C Born) or actually play someone equally as newbie / very patient with da newb.1. When you launch MegaMek, click the Start a New Game button.
2. You get to a screen with two tabs: Select Units and Configure Game. Go to the Configure Game one first.
3. On the left side, you can choose the map to play on by clicking the Edit/View Map button. You can either load one of the many maps supplied with MegaMek, or use the GENERATED map to create a map randomly (you can adjust the settings for GENERATED-type maps, like size of the map, amount of forests, mountains, water etc. when clicking on Edit/View Map button and then on the Generated Map Settings button).
4. The third list in the Configure Game tab lists all players participating in the game. When it's a multiplayer game, it will display you and the other player(s) here, you can also click the Add Bot button below it to include computer-controlled players. Also, you can pick different colours or camo schemes here and set up alliances; it should be pretty self-explanatory.
5. The second list shows and allows you to adjust the deployment zones for everyone.
6. After setting up the map, the bots and the deployment zones, switch from the Configure Game tab to the Select Units tab.
7. Click on the Add A Combat Unit button to show a list of all the different units in MegaMek. Pick it from the list and click Select to add it to the army of the player currently chosen in the drop-down list to the right of that button.
8. After you have picked an army for you and the opponent, click the I'm Done button in the bottom right corner.

Matthew

2009-10-12, 04:11 PM

Jeff Rients recently posted an old Battle Tech scenario on his blog (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2009/10/battletech-scenario-1-take-2.html). I am trying to figure out how to set everything up to get it working via MegaMek in order to give it a whirl in the near future.

Played a good game a couple of weeks ago; my forces consisted of:

Wasp WSP-3M (James Blackburn)
Mauler MAL-1K (Rebecca Hutchinson)
Axman AXM-1N (Conrad Holgard)
Centurion CN9-AH (Dale Lightman)
Thorn THE-N1 (William Bell)
Wolfhound WLF-1 (Robert Crowfield)
Centurion CN9-YLW (Randolph Bodkin)

The forces of my opponent (Ian) consisted of:

Axman AXM-1N (Unnamed)
Axman AXM-1N (Unnamed)
King Crab KGC-000 (Unnamed)
Conquistador CNQ-4R-FW (Unnamed)
Pegasus PG-1S-UK (Unnamed)

Unfortunately for Ian, his two Axmen got bogged down crossing a lake, and although his King Crab and Conquistador provided good supporting fire, the concentrated efforts of my Mauler, Axman and Centurions wore down their armour, eventually scoring an AC 20 hit on the head of one, and knocking the other down with the result of a breach that flooded the mech. His Pegasus chased down and destroyed my retreating Wasp, which had taken a lot of fire, but with the entirety of my forces bearing down on his remaining heavy mechs, Ian opted to retreat from the field.

I could have saved my Wasp if I had thought more carefully about it; it had lost all its weapons flanking the Axmen, so I was not expecting the Pegasus to follow up, and stopped near to the Mauler to sink some heat, but apparently Ian is more petty than I thought. :smallbiggrin:

I am not clear if mechwarriors can survive the destruction of their mechs without ejecting, but somehow I doubt it.

EleventhHour

2009-10-12, 04:18 PM

I am not clear if mechwarriors can survive the destruction of their mechs without ejecting, but somehow I doubt it.

Depends on how it got toasted ;

- Headshot : The pilot is obviously dead.
- Engine : Fusion explosion a few meters below you. Most likely dead. (98%)
- Internal Structure : Depends on if they broke something that would link to engine/cockpit damage. Fair chance of survival.

Hey, Timber! Want to try a Versus game? :smalltongue:

Matthew

2009-10-12, 04:22 PM

Looks like he he might have survived, then:

Weapons fire for Pegasus PG-1S-UK (Ian)
Medium Laser at Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew); needs 6, rolls 7 : hits LT (critical)
Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew) takes 5 damage to LT (critical). 0 Armor remaining.
Critical hit on LT. Roll is 9; 1 location.
<<<CRITICAL HIT>>> on Heat Sink.
Medium Laser at Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew); needs 6, rolls 6 : - Glancing Blow - hits RT
Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew) takes 2 damage to RT.
2 damage transfers to CT.
Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew) takes 2 damage to CT. <<<SECTION DESTROYED>>>,
Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew) has taken 4 engine hits this round.
Checking for engine explosion on 10, roll is 4.
Engine safety systems remain in place.

*** Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew) DESTROYED by damage! ***
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (5-2) = 3; no effect.
Medium Laser at Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew); needs 6, rolls 11 : - Direct Blow -hits RL (critical)
Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew) takes 6 damage to RL (critical). Armor destroyed, 3 Internal Structure remaining
Critical hit on RL. Roll is (8+1) = 9; 1 location.
<<<CRITICAL HIT>>> on Lower Leg.
Critical hit on RL. Roll is (10+1) = 11; 2 locations.
<<<CRITICAL HIT>>> on Foot.
<<<CRITICAL HIT>>> on Jump Jet.
Streak SRM 2 at Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew); needs 6, rolls 8 : 2 missile(s) hit.
Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew) takes 2 damage to RL. 1 Internal Structure remaining
Critical hit on RL. Roll is 6; no effect.
Wasp WSP-3M (Matthew) takes 2 damage to CT.

Timberwolf

2009-10-12, 04:28 PM

Hey, Timber! Want to try a Versus game? :smalltongue:

Sure, but it'll have to be later this week unfortunately, I'm off to bed in a sec and I'm not sure if I'm about tomorrow in the evening. Wednesday, however is almost completely clear *crosses fingers*.

tyckspoon

2009-10-12, 04:32 PM

On a different note... I decided to take a look at the official forums for a little bit today and read a post on how to speed up play and they didn't do quite a few things that I thought were standard practice. First being to put a small die by each 'Mech as you move them to mark that they have been moved as well as the total movement modifier of that 'Mech (such as a 4 if they ran 8 hexes and ended up in a light forest). The other was writing down all of your weapon attack to-hit numbers and their target on a sheet of paper so you can roll and resolve all your weapon attacks without having to figure each one up as you go (and stops people from changing targets or deciding not to alpha-strike for +15 heat when their first PPC blast hits the 'Mech's head and destroys it, which was the topic of another thread)

I've been taught to track movement mods with a d10 or d8, because they're easily positionable. The number showing is your movement modifier, the position of the die records the mech's method of movement- point away from the mech for walking, toward the mech for running, and parallel to the mech for jump. So at a glance you have both your own shooting penalty and your opponent's shooting penalty.

Don't see much point in writing down your attack sequence, at least as a game-efficiency measure; once you've internalized the standard modifiers (ok, that's base 3 and 2 run and close range is none and you moved for.. 3? 8s to hit and 10s with these shorter-ranged things...) you can tally up and roll your attacks in less time than it would take to write them down. I can see the use as an anti-cheating measure, tho, since you are actually supposed to declare every fire assignment before you roll everything and are bound to use all of them once you start rolling.

The thing I find really speeds up the game, besides just waiting for everybody to be familiar enough with the rules to not have to ask how to add up their targets every time, is having lots and lots of pairs of distinctly colored d6s. Combat phases go a lot quicker when you can pick up a bunch of dice and roll 5 weapons at a time with no confusion about what results go with which gun.

RandomLunatic

2009-10-12, 05:24 PM

I use color-coded D6s myself (White=Walk, Red=Run, Green=Jump). Not only does it save time for TNs, but it is possible to tell at a glance who has moved this turn and who has not. And the position of the die in relation to the unit indicates the direction of torso twist/turret rotation.

Jeff Rients recently posted an old Battle Tech scenario on his blog (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2009/10/battletech-scenario-1-take-2.html). I am trying to figure out how to set everything up to get it working via MegaMek in order to give it a whirl in the near future.

Actually, it is really easy to work out, except that no skill levels are given for the pilots.:smallfurious: The 'Mechs are easy enough, and the field is two of the standard BattleTech maps placed side-by-side, by the long ends.I do not think MegaMek can recognize the given victory conditions, but players can do that easy enough.

EleventhHour

2009-10-12, 05:47 PM

And my first victory. :smallbiggrin:

The clanners died under a hail of... well. Lots of stuff. Heavy mechs are hard to kill, even when prone and immobilized. (Holy armour, batman!) Oh, and light mechs with a large amount of movement are ridiculous. (Bloody Tree Frog...)

Yeah, I'm looking forward to a PvP now. Though... I guess it's a failing of the AI more than the weapon, but the extra range on the Clan PPCs doesn't seem to make too much of a difference, since every time we end up within a few hexes of each other.

Erloas

2009-10-12, 06:23 PM

Don't see much point in writing down your attack sequence, at least as a game-efficiency measure; once you've internalized the standard modifiers (ok, that's base 3 and 2 run and close range is none and you moved for.. 3? 8s to hit and 10s with these shorter-ranged things...) you can tally up and roll your attacks in less time than it would take to write them down. I can see the use as an anti-cheating measure, tho, since you are actually supposed to declare every fire assignment before you roll everything and are bound to use all of them once you start rolling.

Well that depends on how many 'Mechs you are playing, and what sort of weapon systems you are using. If you have heat issues and decided to only shoot a portion of your shots its hard to remember exactly which ones you decided to shoot. If you've got pilots of different gunnery skill, weapons with minimum range issues, pulse weapons and secondary targets it can be very easy to have weapons that hit on many different values.

It is also easy to forget to mark off an ammo or two, so if you have it all writen down you can go back and count up all your shots and see how many it should be. Also easier for keeping track of heat, its easy enough to remember all your shooting was 1-2 points over/under your heat limit, but when flamers, inferno rounds, and plasma weapons start being used you have to know for sure what your heat is to quickly add those heat modifiers and see if it still an issue.

It is just extra work if you are only using 1-2 'Mechs, and don't have too many different weapon systems on your 'Mechs.
Of course even then I've had some games where someone I'm playing with decides they don't need to write them down and I usually end up having to double check things for them (of course they are still new players).

tyckspoon

2009-10-12, 06:47 PM

mm. Fair points; I'm speaking from a small-games perspective, where most people are controlling 2 units at most (in the situation I usually get to play, nobody has time to run a full lance/star-sized battle, nevermind anything in the "ok, make sure nobody disturbs the board, we'll finish up tomorrow" scale- only time I've done that is playing with Megamek automating the really time-consuming parts.) It's a situation where ammo-tracking is moderately pointless; I still do it as a matter of principle, but there is an exceedingly high chance that the mech will be downed or lose the relevant weapon long before it actually runs out of ammo with almost any weapon.

..I'm gonna have to go download Megamek again.

Matthew

2009-10-12, 07:00 PM

Actually, it is really easy to work out, except that no skill levels are given for the pilots. :smallfurious: The 'Mechs are easy enough, and the field is two of the standard Battle Tech maps placed side-by-side, by the long ends. I do not think Mega Mek can recognize the given victory conditions, but players can do that easy enough.

Yeah, it is the maps I am having to work on; never made a custom map for Mega Mek before.

jrients

2009-10-12, 07:01 PM

Actually, it is really easy to work out, except that no skill levels are given for the pilots.:smallfurious:

Sorry, dude. It was originally written as an intro scenario for my nephews and all pilots had the default scores.

HamHam

2009-10-12, 07:53 PM

Honestly Dark Age ruined the Clans for me. Now I just want them all to die.

tyckspoon

2009-10-12, 11:01 PM

Hmm. I now have Megamek again. Game setup is a lot smoother than last time I played with it, and the AI calculations seem to go faster (although that could also be because this computer is about twice as good as the last one I used.) I'm especially liking the random-army-generation feature, even if it does create mixes of mechs I would never personally use.

RandomLunatic

2009-10-12, 11:29 PM

Yeah, it is the maps I am having to work on; never made a custom map for Mega Mek before.

No need for custom maps-I already said it was two (Classic) BattleTech maps laid out with their long edges touching. And apparantly, everybody is Piloting 5/Gunnery 4.

Timberwolf

2009-10-13, 02:13 PM

Right... next newbie megamek question (thanks winterwind for sorting me out last time btw)

How do we go about setting up and connecting to a multiplayer game please ?

Erloas

2009-10-13, 03:25 PM

EleventhHour

2009-10-13, 03:31 PM

RandomLunatic

2009-10-13, 03:50 PM

Has anyone else found it odd when you pull up a light 'Mech and see that it has the highest armor value on its head?

I've seen more then a few with 5-8 armor on their head and the same or less on their center torso.
Sure you don't want a ML capping a 'Mech in one shot, but so many of these 'Mech can only take 1 ML to the torso without going internal and will go internal on just about every other location too.

You don't generally get away from the head being almost as armored as every other location until at least into medium 'Mechs.

No. Low-end light 'Mechs have ****-all for armor, which results in the head being one of the places where you can find the heaviest concentration of it. In-universe, explained by the fact the pilot survives if the torso gets cored, but not if the head is blown off.

But that does not make much sense in 'Mechs designed during the 3rd Succession War, where 'Mechs are more valuable than the pilots.

Eh. Not too many 'Mechs designed then anyway.

The pilots have a survival complex? ...but seeing as most of them don't make it out even with ejection pods, they should probably spread that armour around a bit.

On an off question ; Are Pillagers supposed to be tough? In the Wolf Clan scenario, I managed to peg one in the head with an ER Large laser (Critical Hit!) and it died...

Either that, or immense luck for an unaimed headshot is good. >.>

Yes and yes. Pillagers are supposed to be tough, well-armed, jumping scary 'Mechs (the fluff indicates enemies fleeing at the mere sight of approaching Pillagers), and you got a very, very lucky shot. Assuming you are talking CBT, something like 1 in 15,000 lucky.

Erloas

2009-10-13, 04:24 PM

The pilots have a survival complex? ...but seeing as most of them don't make it out even with ejection pods, they should probably spread that armour around a bit.

On an off question ; Are Pillagers supposed to be tough? In the Wolf Clan scenario, I managed to peg one in the head with an ER Large laser (Critical Hit!) and it died...

Either that, or immense luck for an unaimed headshot is good. >.>

Well taking a heat shot, even one that does go internal, isn't necessarily an instant death, given it only has 3 points of internal to go through. If I'm not mistaken a life support hit doesn't instantly kill a pilot, it does however destroy the thing keeping them from getting baked by the heat the 'Mech generates, which means they have to eject or die.

But of course it is military engineers that are designing the 'Mechs and technicians that are building and repairing them, while its probably not true of all factions, many treat the 'Mechs as more important then the pilots. The average pilots has little to no say in a 'Mech's design. Loosing a pilot isn't much of an issue, but keeping a 'Mech so it is as salvageable as possible is.

As for the Pillager, its a high powered 100 ton 'Mech with maximum armor, they don't get any more survivable then that. However, no 'Mech ever has more then 9 armor on their head, its a hard limit of all 'Mechs. A clan ER LL does 10 points of damage, so any hit to the head will go internal, with a chance of crit, and very few crits in the head won't completely kill a 'Mech. The chance of a head shot is 1/36 or 2.78%, the chance of a critical hit is 8+ on 2d6 or 41.67%. So the chance of a clan ER LL to kill a 'Mech in a single hit is about 1.16%. If it had been an IS large laser (ER or normal) they do 8 damage and wouldn't go internal, and if it had been a gauss rifle, AC20, Clan ER PPC, or any other weapon that does 12+ points of damage in a single cluster it would kill any 'Mech in a single hit to the head.
So it was only about a 1 in 90 shot not counting the to-hit roll which still wouldn't put it at more then maybe 1 in 250 or so at a decent range.

Timberwolf

2009-10-13, 04:27 PM

I have decided, I hate physical attacks.

I just lost a Cauldron Born to a kick from a mech 20 tons lighter...

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-13, 04:34 PM

Well taking a heat shot, even one that does go internal, isn't necessarily an instant death, given it only has 3 points of internal to go through. If I'm not mistaken a life support hit doesn't instantly kill a pilot, it does however destroy the thing keeping them from getting baked by the heat the 'Mech generates, which means they have to eject or die.

But of course it is military engineers that are designing the 'Mechs and technicians that are building and repairing them, while its probably not true of all factions, many treat the 'Mechs as more important then the pilots. The average pilots has little to no say in a 'Mech's design. Loosing a pilot isn't much of an issue, but keeping a 'Mech so it is as salvageable as possible is.

As for the Pillager, its a high powered 100 ton 'Mech with maximum armor, they don't get any more survivable then that. However, no 'Mech ever has more then 9 armor on their head, its a hard limit of all 'Mechs. A clan ER LL does 10 points of damage, so any hit to the head will go internal, with a chance of crit, and very few crits in the head won't completely kill a 'Mech. The chance of a head shot is 1/36 or 2.78%, the chance of a critical hit is 8+ on 2d6 or 41.67%. So the chance of a clan ER LL to kill a 'Mech in a single hit is about 1.16%. If it had been an IS large laser (ER or normal) they do 8 damage and wouldn't go internal, and if it had been a gauss rifle, AC20, Clan ER PPC, or any other weapon that does 12+ points of damage in a single cluster it would kill any 'Mech in a single hit to the head.
So it was only about a 1 in 90 shot not counting the to-hit roll which still wouldn't put it at more then maybe 1 in 250 or so at a decent range.

Not quite...

Blowing off the head in one shot (which requires 9 damage) will insta-gib the pilot as well. Thus killing a mech with a headshot is a 1/32 odds. This goes up to 1/6 if you manage to roll on the Punch Hit location table (such as if the mech is behind a Level 1 structure).

UAC/10's are fun, because they get to roll twice for damage. Thus, the odds of hitting that sweet shot are doubled, and auto-gibs when you hit it.

I have decided, I hate physical attacks.

I just lost a Cauldron Born to a kick from a mech 20 tons lighter...

Try it with a 100 ton mech with Hatchet and Triple-Strength Myomer. It'll go through the center torso armor of an Atlas in one shot...

Erloas

2009-10-13, 04:42 PM

Not quite...

Blowing off the head in one shot (which requires 9 damage) will insta-gib the pilot as well. Thus killing a mech with a headshot is a 1/32 odds. Umm... no, 9 armor and 3 internal, you need to do at least 12 damage to instantly kill a 'Mech with a head shot. Shots in the 10-11 damage range only kill with a critical hit roll. And the chance to hit a head is 1 in 36, not 1 in 32.

Try it with a 100 ton mech with Hatchet and Triple-Strength Myomer. It'll go through the center torso armor of an Atlas in one shot...

You may as well go with a heavy 'Mech instead so it can move quickly enough to actually get into melee with something. It might take 2 hits then, but not on most things.

Kicking the legs off other 'Mechs is fun because then you can just wail on them when they are on the ground.

Ka-ther Fangfoot

2009-10-13, 05:15 PM

Oh, yeah. I like playing megamek with 3025 era mechs, so a large mech kicking someone does more damage than nearly any weapon, and it hits nearly every time and always hits a leg until you kick their leg out from under them. :smallamused:

Winterwind

2009-10-13, 05:26 PM

Right... next newbie megamek question (thanks winterwind for sorting me out last time btw)

How do we go about setting up and connecting to a multiplayer game please ?One player uses the regular Start a New Game function, and tells his external IP address to the other player(s) (if your system doesn't show you that IP address, go to a site like www.portforward.com (http://www.portforward.com/), it displays it to you)

The other player(s) click on Connect to a Game instead and enter that IP address in the Server Address field.

All should be using the same Port. If one is behind a router, it may be necessary to set it up to forward that port.

Well taking a heat shot, even one that does go internal, isn't necessarily an instant death, given it only has 3 points of internal to go through. If I'm not mistaken a life support hit doesn't instantly kill a pilot, it does however destroy the thing keeping them from getting baked by the heat the 'Mech generates, which means they have to eject or die.Not even that. If the life-support system is down, pilots take damage if the heat rises above some specific level. Keep the 'Mech cooler than that, and you'll be fine.
In fact, a hit in the life support is probably the least crippling thing that can happen in a headshot (unless that last critical slot in the head is being used by a single heat sink or some small weapon) - less crippling than the to-hit-modifiers from destroyed sensors or the instant death from a destroyed cockpit, anyway.

Timberwolf

2009-10-13, 06:07 PM

I just took my first successful design for a ride :)

Corvid A - 75 Ton Clan Omni -

5/8 move, ERPPC, CLBX 10 and an ERLL with ECM. It seemed to work ok against a similar BV mech (2500 so quite expensive)

Philistine

2009-10-13, 08:15 PM

UAC/10's are fun, because they get to roll twice for damage. Thus, the odds of hitting that sweet shot are doubled, and auto-gibs when you hit it.
Ultra autocannons firing at double rate roll on the Missile Hits table to see how many of their shots hit, with >50% chance that you only hit with one. So first you have to hit the target at all. Then you have the <50% chance of hitting with both shots. After that, you have a roughly 5.478% chance of hitting the Head with one of the two rounds (1-(35/36)^2), vs. a 2.778% chance of hitting the Head normally (1-(35/36)): as Erloas and Winterwind explained, while this does get you into internals on the Head it is not necessarily an insta-kill unless you crit and hit the cockpit.

You also have a 0.077% chance of hitting the Head with both shots, which is an instant kill (using a UAC/10) - but you do have to hit with both rounds, already a minority outcome in itself, before you even have a chance at this very low-probability occurrence.

Try it with a 100 ton mech with Hatchet and Triple-Strength Myomer. It'll go through the center torso armor of an Atlas in one shot...
So I heard you like the BRZ-A3 Berserker...

Of course, the big problem with axe-wielding Assault 'Mechs is that the only things they can catch are other Assault 'Mechs, and they're liable to take a beating while they close. And really, a 60-tonner is enough: 12 points of damage exactly gets you a 1 in 6 chance of insta-gibbing anything that strays within arms' reach (with TSM, 30 tons is enough). And the smaller 'Mechs can be built much, much faster than any Assault.

RandomLunatic

2009-10-14, 01:20 AM

So I heard you like the BRZ-A3 Berserker...

Of course, the big problem with axe-wielding Assault 'Mechs is that the only things they can catch are other Assault 'Mechs, and they're liable to take a beating while they close. And really, a 60-tonner is enough: 12 points of damage exactly gets you a 1 in 6 chance of insta-gibbing anything that strays within arms' reach (with TSM, 30 tons is enough). And the smaller 'Mechs can be built much, much faster than any Assault.

Hatchets use the regular Hit Location Table, not the Punch Table.

And the real problem with any sort of hatchet/sword wielding 'Mech is that it has to run up to the other guy (which has an implicit requirement of "Winning Initiative"), stand next to him and endure the weapon attack phase, come out of that phase upright, concious, and with no critical damage to the hatchet arm, and then, and only then, do you actually get to swing.

Or, you can spend the mass on something actually helpful, like guns, and just kick people for free whenever the opportunity arises.

Aotrs Commander

2009-10-14, 05:32 AM

I'm just starting to get ready to get back into BattleTech. A co-worker at Dad's work was interested in starting, so it's given me the excuse to look over my stuff after a good long break. (Our first game would have been tomorrow but he's got shipped out somewhere for three weeks!)

I actually did a mech-count while I was digging things out and worked out I've actually got 119 Mechs (plus another 11 to be painted which I bought recently*!) Of which 24 out of 130 are homebrew (mostly variations on ICE old Steel Warriors mech kits). And my mate's got about another 50 or so. We have a varity of Clan and IS. He's got a nominal Kurita IS force, and I've got a broad enough range to do pretty much FedCom, FedSun, Lyran, Cappellan and Free Worlds, plus a handful for ComStar (or arguably WoB). In fact, I specifically painted all my IS mechs on a black, grey or white base, with different coloured details, so I can mix and match for whoever I want to play with at the time and they all look somewhat related.

(As for Clans, we don't really care. In fact, we use my mate's Clan-O-matic to generate up one of the other, 10,000 clans not heard of as often as the main twenty...**)

Given that number of Mechs, I forked out for Heavy Metal, which by gum, has been a godsend. (I even - with a bit of effort - managed to put in the new weapon systems from Total War.) We play mostly 3rd ed, but not really, since we houserule the crud out of BattleTech like we do everything else. It started with the 'simple' use of enforceing the salvo rules; last time we played, we experiemented with using 2" to a hex (instead of our prior 1" to a hex) and using Manouvre Group's*** command and control sequence.

Yanno, a lot of people lurve the Clan ERPPC's. I will admit, 15 damage is pretty sweet, but I'm a bigger fan of the Clan Large Pulse Lasers.

First off, it's not as heat intensive. 10 heat is easier to manage in multiples than 15 heat.

Second, it only looses a max of 3 hexes, 23 vs 20, and has a -2 on your attack checks. Worth it? Hells yes.

And it's still a very respectable 10 damage, which CAN decapitate a mech on a lucky shot.

Sure, the damage output might be lower, but so is the heat buildup, it's still enough for that lucky Headshot, and more accurate. It's also almost half the BV (265 vs 412)

I concur. In fact, my preferred Masakari variant (which I designated -M) replaces all four ER PPCs with pulse lasers, allowing it to accurately shoot other mechs in the (well, usually torso, actually). (I confess, I've totally ignored the nerf to pulse lasers in the newest edition, since the whole point is to make mechs DIE FASTER so you can have a longer, more interesting game...)

I have almost never won a game of BattleTech, however, seeing as I am utterly unable to roll more than 6 on 2D6 for long periods. As an example, I once jumped my Hunchback IIC in behind an Atlas and fired both AC Ultra-20s and promptly jammed them both. This is typical; my mech pilots cannot hit the broadside of a barn. My mate on the other hand, is a major dice god. He once, the little sod, just before my aforementioned Masakari-M shot his torso off, rolled a 2 on the hit location, a 12 on torso crit and promptly rolled three crits - all on the consequtive slots of engine, 3,2,1. I worked out it was about a 1 in four million chance of doing those exact locations... Git.)

Ona a vaguely related note, I tried running MechCom 2 the other day, but I seem to be having troubles with my graphics card (it's running everything too fast). Anybody know of any technical mods for Mech Com 2 (or just getting it to work with Nvidia drivers?)

*Anyone thinking that we must be obsessed would be wrong, since that pales into comparison against the number of starships - my real love. Of which I have 700 (PAINTED) plus 1200 fighters...

**I.e., we have a table upon which you roll D100 for an adjective, and again for a noun, giving us clans like Clan Uncanny Goat, Clan Plastic Patio Furniture and the fist of these clans to be heard of (predating the table) Clan Concrete Llama. This perhaps tells you at the level we take our games seriously...

***For those of you - i.e. all of you, who have never heard of the latter, it is quite simply the best WW2 to modern to sci-fi to nicking-the-rules-to-use-in-almost-anything set of rules out there, if you like brain smashingly complex tactics. Link (http://www.wargamevault.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=2500&products_id=58211&filters=0_0_0&manufacturers_id=2500). Basically, the one of clever bits of Manouvre Group is the round sequnce and command and control, which is something most games; especially wargames are very, very lazy with; BattleTech being absolutely among them. Which, when applied to BattleTech, makes the game just flow better. (MG's other clever bits are terrain and perception.)

Erloas

2009-10-14, 09:51 AM

Given that number of Mechs, I forked out for Heavy Metal, which by gum, has been a godsend. (I even - with a bit of effort - managed to put in the new weapon systems from Total War.) We play mostly 3rd ed, but not really, since we houserule the crud out of BattleTech like we do everything else. It started with the 'simple' use of enforceing the salvo rules; last time we played, we experiemented with using 2" to a hex (instead of our prior 1" to a hex) and using Manouvre Group's*** command and control sequence.

Heavy Metal Pro has already been updated with all of the weapons from Total Warfare... I'm not sure why you would have needed to add them. It doesn't have all of the optional rules from Tactical Operations, but it has some.

As for house rules, personally I've always been against them in almost every case, from custom maps and mods in computer games to everything else. It seems like 99% of them aren't designed to make the game better, they are designed to make the game cater to exactly the way the person wants to play and generally ruins a lot of other things in the process.

With Battletech however, given all the advanced level rules, there is a huge amount of complexity and realism that can be added, but was taken out of the base rules to keep the game playable and reasonably easy to learn. The use of inches rather then hexes is also a rule covered in TW (or is it TO?). Do you have any actual information on the Manouvre Group's system? The link you provided says virtually nothing of what it actually does.

(I confess, I've totally ignored the nerf to pulse lasers in the newest edition, since the whole point is to make mechs DIE FASTER so you can have a longer, more interesting game...)

What exactly were the changes from the last edition, I didn't play at all with the old edition. My understanding though was that they didn't change the ranges, damage, to-hit modifier, heat, or fitting requirements of pulse lasers I thought the only real change to pulse lasers was a fairly substantial increase in their BV.

Pulse lasers, especially clan pulse lasers are really kind of broken. I'm pretty sure even the developers think so but didn't change them because that would have invalidated a lot of previous canon 'Mech designs as well as many supplement books that haven't been updated. I don't have a source to back it up but I remember hearing it somewhere.

The biggest issue is that in so many cases a LPL is a superior choice to almost every other long range weapon, does about the same damage, about the same heat, hits significantly easier (about 2.5 times as much at long range if you assume your average to-hit to be 10 compared to 8 of a pulse) and you don't give up much range for those advantages.

I also completely fail to see how having 'Mechs die faster makes for longer more interesting games? I can see how having the ability to field more 'Mechs and still end the game in a reasonable time frame could make some battles more interesting, but its not making the game longer. The biggest issue with pulse weapons, and why they make the game less interesting, is that they almost completely negate the use of light and medium 'Mechs because a single LPL will start going internal on any location on almost all light 'Mechs and a good portion of medium 'Mechs, and the only defense that light and medium 'Mechs have is speed and the associated higher to-hit modifier, and when you negate that completely with the pulse weapon bonus they just die. Your only hope of dealing with pulse weapons is to have enough armor to live through the shots, which in my opinion makes the game much less interesting.
IS pulse weapons aren't as bad because they loose a huge amount of range (half the range of a clan) and aren't as heat efficient.

EleventhHour

2009-10-14, 09:59 AM

~Pulse Laser Stuff~

I've found so far, that as long as you treat your ranged weapons like you would in 40K (Move up far enough that you have some space to retreat), you can use the weapons with the 3/4 hex additional range on the LPL to just walk backwards and burn them, not to mention getting the opening shots, as well.

I tested them out a bit, and I see what you mean about roasting light mechs with them, though. If you don't have the armour to take a hit from the serious accuracy of one of those, then your going to bite it.

:: Also, the Longbow is my new best friend. >.>

Matthew

2009-10-14, 10:14 AM

No need for custom maps-I already said it was two (Classic) Battle Tech maps laid out with their long edges touching. And apparently, everybody is Piloting 5/Gunnery 4.

Sure, but I do not know how to set up the maps in Mega Mek, we usually just play a random one.

Aotrs Commander

2009-10-14, 12:54 PM

Heavy Metal Pro has already been updated with all of the weapons from Total Warfare... I'm not sure why you would have needed to add them. It doesn't have all of the optional rules from Tactical Operations, but it has some.

The Tech Manual stuff, even. I sort of meant Total Warfare edition, rather than the specific book, anyway.

As for house rules, personally I've always been against them in almost every case, from custom maps and mods in computer games to everything else. It seems like 99% of them aren't designed to make the game better, they are designed to make the game cater to exactly the way the person wants to play and generally ruins a lot of other things in the process.

We, on the other hand have never used any rules system in 20 years of gaming without moderate to major houseruling. The truth of it is, all rules have flaws. Partly because 99% of people who make rules (house or otherwise) have little understanding of how to do it properly. Partly because a given gaming group may want to play things in a different way. In our case, we like very tactically complex battles where the focus tends to be on manouvering and not weapon factors. (It's worth noting, for example, house rules aside, we've never played BattleTech on a hex map or a battlefield that was as comparitively small.)

Rules writing is a very difficult thing to do right, because you have to understand what the model is supposed to do (something most rules-smiths don't understand or attempt). Just because someone is published doesn't make them any better rules-smiths! In some cases, because a company, even as big as WotC, couldn't afford at the commericial level, the amount of skills applied. (MG, for example, was written over about six years by an engineer who does computer modelling for a living and a military expert whose actually lectured to the armed forces on occasion. You couldn't employ them commercially as games designers - at their current saleries - they'd be far too expensive!)

And BattleTech, to be brutally honest, has it's superlative flavour and feel going for it and precious little else. I play it because it's BattleTech, not because it's a good set of rules. The rules are functional, but nothing more. As a set of rules, it's very much moribund, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen a lot worse, but I've seen a lot better. Hence I have no fear of attempting to make some improvements.

One other thing, of course; I don't know what part of the world you're from, but in the UK, we get to play a game every week (In fact I roleplay twice and wargame once a week!) I know that certainly stateside, some folks some have to travel a long way to have a game. So if they can only play one or twice a month, they might be be less inclined to sacrifice a session for fiddling with something and concentrate on making the most out of what limited time they have. I mean, most rules systems are at least modally functional games, if not very elegant sometimes.

I, on the other hand, don't mind sacrificing an evening's game when we screw something up totally (like the first time we tired using MG's rules without expanding the scale an letting people shoot more than once per round. That...really didn't work!)

Do you have any actual information on the Manouvre Group's system? The link you provided says virtually nothing of what it actually does.

Right. Bear in mind you did ask! The bits we apply to BattleTech (which are about a third of the most clever bits) basically involve the round sequence with the shooting from BattleTech stapled on. In essence, rather than rolling for initiative, moving alternately and delcaring fire alternately then resolving it simulataneously, each Mech (etc) moves and fires in it's own activation, (which is not simaltaneous).

Initiative is not decided by a random factor. (This has, after every game of BattleTech up until we tired changing it, plus about five years of rolling for initative playing my own set of starship rules, proven to be too much random, since he who wins initative wins the game.) Instead, whoever has the least number of units to activate can choose to activate a unit first, or force the other guy to do so (which is usually more important for the defender), until they are equal enough to alternate. It makes it so much tactically more interesting, as you have to decide what to do more carefully, as well as removes literally reems of time faffing about.

A unit basically has two actions, which it can use to do various things like change speeds or shoot. The other nasty part is that if you do another action while moving, you have to move a bit (which can lead to nasty things like driving into a river). I forget - it's been about a year and we only tried it once - how I applied that to BattleTech specifically.

(In MG proper, this becomes more important when you add things like the fact you don't have 360 degree vision, so you end up having to support each other and cover the blindspots - like real armoured vehicles and you can take extra reactions if something shoots at you and you can see or it comes into view and so on. Some of which doesn't easily lend itself to BattleTech's combat system, without an awful lot more effort than I choose to expend.)

But, to be fair, though, it really all depends what sort of game you want to play. An MG and our general style of play doesn't appeal to a lot of people. Because, despite how simple the rules are (and they're easily to play than to explain, as is often the case with most good rules!), a fair number of people find them just too much like hard work to play, because of the tactical thinking involved. We really don't play a six-pack-and-bit-of-a-laugh games.

What exactly were the changes from the last edition, I didn't play at all with the old edition. My understanding though was that they didn't change the ranges, damage, to-hit modifier, heat, or fitting requirements of pulse lasers I thought the only real change to pulse lasers was a fairly substantial increase in their BV.

Sorry, it wasn't the nerf to pulse lasers I was thinking of, but to Targeting Computers (which pulse lasers happen to synergise with). Which was to make them not work with anything that has rapid-fire. So we will totally ignore that bit of Total Warfare, as it doesn't mesh with what we want out of the system. (Something that kills things faster is good!)

I also completely fail to see how having 'Mechs die faster makes for longer more interesting games? I can see how having the ability to field more 'Mechs and still end the game in a reasonable time frame could make some battles more interesting, but its not making the game longer. The biggest issue with pulse weapons, and why they make the game less interesting, is that they almost completely negate the use of light and medium 'Mechs because a single LPL will start going internal on any location on almost all light 'Mechs and a good portion of medium 'Mechs, and the only defense that light and medium 'Mechs have is speed and the associated higher to-hit modifier, and when you negate that completely with the pulse weapon bonus they just die. Your only hope of dealing with pulse weapons is to have enough armor to live through the shots, which in my opinion makes the game much less interesting.
IS pulse weapons aren't as bad because they loose a huge amount of range (half the range of a clan) and aren't as heat efficient.

How does mechs dying faster make the game better? Mechs dying faster gives you a higher body count (which I like) plus it makes for a more mobile around and more models on the board. Heck, we even knocked back the modifer for movement down so it was easier to hit at one point. I'm not a fan (and nor are the folks we play with) of the traditional slugging fest BattleTech can produce. So, leaving the bits that make it more deadly (like Pulse Lasers with targetting computers) alone is good because it means there's less static hammering and more moving to positon. And, also, because you can use MORE STUFF and still get a result.

Remember, we're play on boards that are effectively at least twice (2" to a hex on a 6' x 4' board) to four times (1" to a hex as we used to play on a 6 x 4) as big as single mapsheet, so everything is moving around much faster and more movably. Which is what makes it tactically more interesting, as you have room to make flanking attacks.

What MG - and my own starship rules - taught me was that the most overlooked part of wargames (board size, terrain and such) is actually one of the most important, and changing something like board size makes a much larger difference to how you play the game (rather than how the rules work), than you might suppose.

Erloas

2009-10-14, 02:03 PM

Rules writing is a very difficult thing to do right, because you have to understand what the model is supposed to do (something most rules-smiths don't understand or attempt). Just because someone is published doesn't make them any better rules-smiths!
And there are a lot of gamers that think they know a system better then the people writing the rules. I've seen it 100 times over where people say they know it a lot better and change some rules and break a lot more then they fix.

Right. Bear in mind you did ask! The bits we apply to BattleTech (which are about a third of the most clever bits) basically involve the round sequence with the shooting from BattleTech stapled on. In essence, rather than rolling for initiative, moving alternately and delcaring fire alternately then resolving it simulataneously, each Mech (etc) moves and fires in it's own activation, (which is not simaltaneous).

Initiative is not decided by a random factor. (This has, after every game of BattleTech up until we tired changing it, plus about five years of rolling for initative playing my own set of starship rules, proven to be too much random, since he who wins initative wins the game.) Instead, whoever has the least number of units to activate can choose to activate a unit first, or force the other guy to do so (which is usually more important for the defender), until they are equal enough to alternate. It makes it so much tactically more interesting, as you have to decide what to do more carefully, as well as removes literally reems of time faffing about.

Winning and loose initiative adds a huge amount to the tactics required. Knowing which order to move in, and when to be aggressive and when to be defensive changes each round depending on who wins. Since you roll initiative every single turn I don't see how that could decide an entire battle, unless you lost almost every turn, and you simply can't write rules to take into account bad luck. Also the turn structure is vital to the survivability and utility of light and medium 'Mechs.

Getting rid of simultaneous firing also seems like a very bad idea. The game is built on that idea. It changes things completely when you already know what happens from some units before you decide what to fire with others. It would completely negate the main advantages of heat generating weapons too. Again it seems like a system that would cater to to heavy and assault 'Mechs and really hurt smaller 'Mechs.
It also seems like a fairly easy system to take advantage of, since just taking fewer more powerful units will always give you the advantage in initiative.

How does mechs dying faster make the game better? Mechs dying faster gives you a higher body count (which I like) plus it makes for a more mobile around and more models on the board. Heck, we even knocked back the modifer for movement down so it was easier to hit at one point. I'm not a fan (and nor are the folks we play with) of the traditional slugging fest BattleTech can produce. So, leaving the bits that make it more deadly (like Pulse Lasers with targetting computers) alone is good because it means there's less static hammering and more moving to positon. And, also, because you can use MORE STUFF and still get a result.

So it sounds like you just want a game where you take the biggest 'Mechs and blast each other to pieces as quickly as possible? I don't see how that is increasing the tactical nature of the game. Keeping that 25 ton 'Mech alive using nothing but speed and terrain while you get into place to take rear armor shots on big 'Mechs is gone if you nerf the speed modifiers.

The static standing around and shooting blindly thing is entirely up to the people playing. A good player doesn't do that because its a quick road to being taken apart. You also get that sort of thing if you are fielding a lot of assault 'Mechs. Field more light and medium 'Mechs and static battles are a non-issue.

Remember, we're play on boards that are effectively at least twice (2" to a hex on a 6' x 4' board) to four times (1" to a hex as we used to play on a 6 x 4) as big as single mapsheet, so everything is moving around much faster and more movably. Which is what makes it tactically more interesting, as you have room to make flanking attacks.

I've been playing a on 6'x4' board from my very first games, a hex mat 6'x4' with 2" hexes. The mapsheets are, at least as far as I'm concerned, just a simple convention for something they can easily provide in a book or box. The use of heavy or light amounts of terrain, buildings and hills are all within the normal rules. Even the rulebook says a single mapsheet isn't really big enough for more then a couple 'Mechs.

It also sounds like you should just look into the BattleForce subrules. They are there precisely to change the way the game is played to allow for games with large numbers of units. Armor is simplified, weapons are simplified, movement is simplified, there are a lot more units and they die a lot more. It is the system they use to represent larger battles instead of the skirmishes that the normal rules focuses on.

Timberwolf

2009-10-14, 03:11 PM

Right EleventhHour, ready when you are...

*prepares to be LRM'd to pieces*

Aotrs Commander

2009-10-14, 05:41 PM

And there are a lot of gamers that think they know a system better then the people writing the rules. I've seen it 100 times over where people say they know it a lot better and change some rules and break a lot more then they fix.

Not gonna argue. The percentage of people who can actually write rules is very small. But I was just really saying being a published rules-writer is no garenteed certification of competance (though it on average it means at least a slightly higher chance) - it just means they have the time, money and energy to get it published; which is a different set of skills to actual rules writing. An awful lot of wargames rules, are in fact, completely crap.

Nowadays, sad to say, a lot of the sets of rules that are popular are utter rubbish from the simulationist point of view; they are good games if you want to move models a bit and roll dice but that's all. But they get popular because they don't require any thought, are tied into models and they are glossy and full of pretty pictures. (No, I'm not just talking about Games Workshop, who've been doing that for simply decades, but historical wargames rules too now. Flames of War, lookin' at you...))

(Noting, in fairness, BattleTech has always been at least above this level even at the worst of times. Thought Total Warfare is a bit too shiney for my tastes. I believe rules should be with as few a frills as possible. A few black-and-white illustrations are plenty for me.)

[Side rant]Also adding army lists to rules is almost always a formula for disaster,as it all too often becomes about who have build the most optimised army. That, BattleTech HAS avoided, and with great panache; while you can get a (very comprehesive at times) list of what factions have what mechs, the nature of the background and the fluff flat-out encourages you to not be limited by them. (How often in the computer games and fiction do people trot around in captured Clan mechs, for example!)[/side rant]

Winning and loose initiative adds a huge amount to the tactics required. Knowing which order to move in, and when to be aggressive and when to be defensive changes each round depending on who wins. Since you roll initiative every single turn I don't see how that could decide an entire battle, unless you lost almost every turn, and you simply can't write rules to take into account bad luck. Also the turn structure is vital to the survivability and utility of light and medium 'Mechs.

Getting rid of simultaneous firing also seems like a very bad idea. The game is built on that idea. It changes things completely when you already know what happens from some units before you decide what to fire with others. It would completely negate the main advantages of heat generating weapons too. Again it seems like a system that would cater to to heavy and assault 'Mechs and really hurt smaller 'Mechs.
It also seems like a fairly easy system to take advantage of, since just taking fewer more powerful units will always give you the advantage in initiative.

I'm gonna just have to agree to disagree with you on that. I, myself, think having simultaneous fire is a very bad idea in any system, as it essentially makes firing order meaningless. (Full Thrust - the best overall starship game currently in, well, if not technicially publication at the moment, in obtainable form has simultaneous fire. It made no difference whether you rolled it by ship, by "that mass of ships there" or by by fleet. The net result was the same. And you still have to remember what state what was in at the start of the firing phase in both systems.) By making fire as non-simultaneous as movement, it makes it as just as important as to who shoots what when and where. This is not simple true of BattleTech, but all systems. I think it plays better; your opinion may vary, but I also suspect (not to my great surprise) that we probably play very different styles of games.

The abuse of the lower-unit numbers is not really all that great, in practise. You might choose to go first, but that just means the other guy can try and shoot you when you can't respond. And it kinda is representative of Command and Control, which otherwise BattleTech totally lacks. (No, C3 doesn't really count!) It's actually one of those things that comes out (and is more easily understood) better in real play than in me going in circles with a wall of text trying to explain (so I'll spare you that block of blither!). But, like I say, your milage may vary. (And, I also grant you, as we've only used MG/BattleTech twice, it may well still need some adjustments, subject to further playtesting.)

Rolling for initative has meant over the course of most the games (not just Battletech) where I've used it means that one side will often win initative more often and thus win. Statistics of small numbers comes to bite you in the ass; it's too variable. And contrary to what a lot of wargamers and roleplayers think, too much randomness can totally frag the game up.

(Actually, it wasn't until I looked up Megamek today I even realised BattleTech fire was supposed to be simultaneous. It beggered my belief that you'd go through all the effort of declaring fire and then go back AGAIN and resolve it. The thought would never, ever have crossed my mind you'd even consider doing it that way. And I'm certainly not ever going to play it that way, either, since I think that slowing the game down for fire declaration is worse than losing due to random factors; at least in the latter case you're not wasting as much time for no ultimate change of results (and potentailly forgetting what you've declared OR having to write it down and breaking up the flow even more) and you're actually doing something. But, y'know, different strokes and all that.)

Anyhow, I've said my piece, so I won't enter a too-extended debate on it and derail the thread more than necessary!

So it sounds like you just want a game where you take the biggest 'Mechs and blast each other to pieces as quickly as possible? I don't see how that is increasing the tactical nature of the game. Keeping that 25 ton 'Mech alive using nothing but speed and terrain while you get into place to take rear armor shots on big 'Mechs is gone if you nerf the speed modifiers.

When we were using 1" to a hex, we found that you spent most of your time running or faster, so everyone was hitting less, since in order to move to position, you were going flat out. Which was why we slid the very top end back a bit. The game we played at 2"-hex worked better, since you didn't have to sprint/run everywhere to get into position. Rendering that modification unecessary.

It also sounds like you should just look into the BattleForce subrules. They are there precisely to change the way the game is played to allow for games with large numbers of units. Armor is simplified, weapons are simplified, movement is simplified, there are a lot more units and they die a lot more. It is the system they use to represent larger battles instead of the skirmishes that the normal rules focuses on.

I did look at and was decidedly unimpressed with BattleForce; which fell into the same sort of category of Rolemaster's 'wargames' (War Law and the various vehicle combat rules) and BattleSpace (don't know about the most recent edition of Aerotech), i.e. A Bit Naff. If I was going to abstract the mechs any more than regular BattleTech, I'd go the whole hog and just use a totally different system. (Dirtside II or Manouvre Group would do the job leagues better for the same level of abtraction.)

Ultimately, we're always going to modify rules, because no set of rules will ever be perfect. We flat-out won't play a competative game anyway, so it really doesn't matter to us. I was fairly sure mentioning we modified BattleTech was going to raise some ire - or at least eyebrows - , since it has when I've mentioned it in the past. But to me, nothing I play will ever be sacroscant for modification for improvement; even if it's only improvement or the game we want it to be. I wouldn't expect everyone to play BattleTech like we do, because not everyone plays the same sort of game. Just as wide a variety as the difference in people who play table-top RPGs.

Timberwolf

2009-10-14, 06:03 PM

Erloas

2009-10-14, 06:18 PM

*first* I'm up for a game of MegaMek if anyone wants to play in the next hour or so.

***
Well I won't break it down too much and try to keep it (relatively) short.
I would almost completely disagree with every aspect of your rant.

Your stated goals where to make manuverability more important, making tactics more important then weapons, and to make initiative less important in who wins. Maybe you just didn't describe everything well, but to me it seems like pretty much everything you changed does just exactly the opposite. Making the choice of movement much less important, and making bigger weapons and more armor more important then anything else. And initiative is a much bigger advantage now because you have the chance of taking out opponents before they can even do anything.

It is these sorts of house rules which are exactly why I don't like house rules.

When its all said and done, it doesn't seem like you are actually playing Battletech at all, you are just using their models and a small aspect of their game. It also doesn't sound like you ever played the game correctly from the start to even say how well the system works.

As for fire decleration, you don't have to (and really shouldn't) tell your opponents all of your attacks prior to starting to resolve them. When you declare your attacks it usually means writing down what is shooting at what and the numbers needed to hit, and everyone does that before anyone knows what anyone else is going to do. Once everyone has their shots figured out then you roll them. It makes a huge tactical difference that way, you might hit with everything one round knowing you will jump up in heat with the assumption that your opponent is likely to destroy that 'Mech in that turn. However if your opponent instead decided to target another of your 'Mechs you won't know that until you've already commited to all those attacks. You also don't know if they are going to go with their 1-2 big heat/damage guns or 5-8 low heat/damage weapons.

Winterwind

2009-10-14, 06:25 PM

Me and EleventhHour tried to play some megamek tonight but we couldn't connect.

We opened up port 2346 on both our routers and turned off windows firewall.

Has anyone got any bright ideas about how to get this working please ?Sorry, cannot think of anything else that might be causing this problem. I'd suggest making sure you have the same version, and all that, but I assume you already did that, so... I'm afraid I'm out of ideas. Good luck sorting it out somehow. :smallfrown:

tyckspoon

2009-10-14, 07:06 PM

I also don't know what the problem might be, but in the name of science I'm willing to attempt a game with somebody to help find out. :smallbiggrin: Tag me on AOL or Yahoo's messengers @<my username. Or just board IM.

EleventhHour

2009-10-14, 08:20 PM

I'm willing to try and get a game running with anyone who wants to... the IP address I'm not sure about, unfortunately, but this is the one that it should be ;

192.168.1.101

I'll keep it open for the next little bit just to see if anyone can join at all. Post your results! :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon

2009-10-14, 08:35 PM

hmm. That's a home-network address. If that's the one you're trying to use, that's probably the problem- people can't (or shouldn't be able to, at least) access that one directly, it's just a tracking number your own local network uses. You want the external IP address, which is what the rest of the internet sees as your 'location'. You can find that by checking your router/modem's settings or by checking the portforward.com site Winterwind mentioned; it's given right above the list of router models.

EleventhHour

2009-10-14, 09:02 PM

So it should be... 67.193.124.207 ?

:smallconfused:

tyckspoon

2009-10-14, 09:08 PM

That..looks more like a proper IP address, yes. Are you trying to host a game right now?

EleventhHour

2009-10-14, 09:10 PM

Was leaving it open in case anyone wanted to play and could figure out what was wrong.

...I guess I found out what was wrong. >.>

Erloas

2009-10-15, 07:33 PM

Well I just finished a game against my brother and cousin, running free for all. We set the limit at 3000 points then everyone ended up at like 3200 so we went with that instead.

My cousin went with a Banshee-6S-UK and Firefly-4C.
My brother used the Warhammer-9D and Jenner-DR.
I had the Mercury-99, Crab-45 and Bishamon-3K.

The banshee had heat issues, he overheated once and shut down but didn't get wasted because most people decided to shoot at more immediate threats assuming someone else was going to be shooting at the banshee. So he got up to fight again. He lasted for a while, though he did take an armor bypassing critical hit to an engine, was running a bit hot, then still decided to unload everything again, going from 10 heat to 30. But this time his SRM ammo exploded and took him out.
The jenner lost a leg fairly early on when it took a short walk to get behind the banshee (just prior to first overheat shutdown) and my 'Mechs decided to capitalize on a light 'Mech with a low mod. He shortly after lost an arm and laid in the middle of the field a few rounds before someone finished him off.
The warhammer took a fair amount of damage, and lost his right arm and near the end was off by himself surrounded by all 3 of my 'Mechs. He had already taken a pilot hit from a fall earlier and then I hit him in the head and he fell unconscious. At that point we called the game, the Warhammer had only taken a few internal hits (not counting the lost arm) but couldn't take any more hits to either side torso without going internal and only a bit left on the CT. Barring some decent critical rolls (to finish off the engine) he probably would have got back up but he knew he wasn't going to be taking out any of my 'Mechs, let alone all 3.

The firefly was left with minor damage (but not enough of a threat to continue the game) and all 3 of my 'Mechs were still up. The Mercury had lost the LA/LT but no one else was internal at all. There were a few locations that were close but overall they didn't fair too badly.

Erloas

2009-10-16, 07:14 PM

EleventhHour

2009-10-16, 08:44 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-17, 10:57 AM

So I was doing some height and weight comparisions on 'Mechs today and a T-Rex is about as tall as a 'Mech and weighs about 10-15tons. So I figured that would make a really cool light 'Mech. Of course he doesn't have a power supply so that leaves out the PPCs and lasers, so he would have to go with an autocannon. Because practicality and believability is key here.:smallwink:

So T-rex running around with a autocannon ala Rambo.

Maybe someday if I can find a 1/300 scale T-Rex model I'll try to make one up.

Ammo would still be a problem unless you turned on the Infinite Ammo code that Rambo used.

You would also need to plate Rex somehow if you expect him to last the first round of combat.

Oh... dear... I need some brain bleach. No, wait... let me share it with you first, since it's all your fault...

Borg T.Rex. Cybernetic attachments, including the Power Plant to fuel it. Single eye replaced ala Loqutous. Legs cybernetically enhanced with jump jets, since Rex was such a good jumper anyways.

Hell, I can write you up some stats in a few if you like...

EDIT:

T-Rex:Clan Tech - Grimlock
Tonnage: 20 (cybernetic enhancements added a few tons)
Movement: 6/9/6
Endosteel IS, much in the same way that Wolverine has Adamantium IS
Armor: 3.5t
Weapons: Streak SRM/4 (LA), Medium Pulse Laser (RA), Flamer (H)
Note: Bite counts as a Hatchet (kick to the punch/hit location table) which automatically forces the target to make a Pilot check or fall prone.

Either that, or we could use the T-Rex as a chassis, rather than as a whole mech, in which case T-Rex would be something like a 100 ton mech, with the 'body' being the IS. But I like this build. It's a firebreathing T.Rex with LAZORZ and missiles.

Erloas

2009-10-17, 11:14 AM

Well its going to be a 20 ton 'Mech equivelent.

I built one up.
20 Tons, Dark Age Era
XL engine (since he can't loose a torso without dieing)
3/5 movement, maybe a bit fast for real T-Rex but not by a lot
2 tons of ammo, so no location with more then 5 points, so he can't take more then a single ML before you start getting squishy bits
And a RAC/5 in his right arm with a ton of ammo in his torso. I'm seeing it more like a chain feed gun with the belt being flung over his shoulder or going into a box on his hip.

BV 418 and C-Bill 1,543,440

I suppose for armor you could put him in a set of plate armor and call the internal structure the dino itself.

Winterwind

2009-10-17, 11:46 AM

This concept is ridiculously awesome and awesomely ridiculous, at the same time. I love it. :smallbiggrin:

Timberwolf

2009-10-17, 10:18 PM

Just a quick question that popped up in my game with EleventhHour yesterday (it went to the absolute wire) - how do you use the C3 stuff and TAG ?

tyckspoon

2009-10-17, 11:11 PM

C3 is set in the battle configuration screen, where you select your mechs. There are two kinds of C3 networks- master/slave and Independent. They don't mix, so if you want to use C3 pay attention to your units. For a Master/Slave arrangement, you can attach up to 3 Slave mechs to one Master unit, and up to 3 of those groups of 4 to one higher-level Master. An Independent network can contain up to 6 mechs.

C3 is activated on the battle configuration screen, where you choose your army. Highlight the mech you want to use C3 with and hit Configure Unit. It'll bring up a screen with option boxes for pilot skills and deployment time and dropdowns for any special configuration options, like ammo loads or.. well, C3. Open up the C3 box. If you're doing Master/Slave, you want to start with the Master and select 'begin a new network.' Then go through the Configuration menu for all of the Slave units and select "Connect to [Master mech] network." The process is the same for an Independent group, but it doesn't matter which mech you start with there.

The benefit, if you're not familiar with it already, is that your range penalties are measured from whichever member of the C3 network is closest to the target. Actual distance to target is still used for determining whether or not you're out of range. A Master/Slave network can be destroyed by eliminating the Master; an Independent network survives the loss of a member (although taking out the 'spotter' can still remove the benefit of it.)

TAG... I'll have to look up. Never used it...

Ah. It paints targets for artillery fire (Arrow IV or Semi-Guided LRMs.) Not sure how you actually use it in the game, but there's an option on one of the bars called 'Spot' that is probably relevant.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-18, 01:20 AM

Just a quick question that popped up in my game with EleventhHour yesterday (it went to the absolute wire) - how do you use the C3 stuff and TAG ?

To expound on what Tyckspoon said, as I use both of these systems fairly regularly:

C3 stands for Command, Control, Communication. I prefer the Master/Slave units, because they can be 'Tiered'. Thus you can have a Command Lance with a 'Commander" having one Master unit and three "Lieutenants" with a Slave to said Master, and another Master themselves. Each of these three Leutenants are connected to "Sargent", who also has a Master and a Slave, and each Sargent has three squad-mates with him. That's... a lot of mechs tied into one tac-net. C3i, on the other hand, are a free-flow tac-net, where taking out a Master unit won't drop everyone 'below' him out of the net, however you can only have five mechs in it.

Game mechanics, you can use the position of any mech in your C3 net to determine your 'range' that you roll for, assuming you are still in maximum range of your weapon. You still have to count any obstacles, and have to have valid LoS to your target.

Thus, on a hypothetical infinite flat ground with no cover:

I've got an Atlas and a Catapult in a C3 network. They decide to jump a Madcat. Let us assume for this example that the pilot of the Madcat is mentally retarded and should never have been allowed into a 'Mech and lets the Atlas get up to 3 hexes away. The Catapult, on the other hand, is a good 20 hexes away.

Since both mechs are in the C3 network, I can 'target off of' the Atlas, and my Catapult is firing as though he were in close range. He does not get the 'too close' penalties, because he is physically not that close. If he were 30 hexes out, he wouldn't be able to fire, even with the C3 network, because the missiles simply won't reach that far.

If there were a Light woods between the Catapult and the Madcat, that would also have to be taken into consideration. However, there being a Light Woods between the Atlas and the Madcat wouldn't matter unless it was ALSO between the Catapult and the Madcat.

If the Madcat had ECM, however, the Atlas would be too close, and would get knocked out of the C3 network if it got closer than 4 hexes.

Mmmkay, now let's bring TAG into the mix.

TAG stands for Target Acquisition Gear. It is remarkably similar to the modern-day concept of 'laser painting' a target. Remember the first Transformers movie? The part where the scorpion decepticon was pinning down the humans, who used the laser targeting scopes on their rifles to 'call in' air support? Yea, like that. It has two uses:

1) Call in Arrow IV Missiles.

These are artillery pieces, similar to a Long Tom, which can be fired Off-board. The 'spotter' mech has to hit with his TAG system (like any other weapon system), only doesn't roll for Hit Location if he does hit. He's got to keep LoS on the target mech until the missile can 'land', which can be a turn or two, depending on how many 'boards' away the Arrow IV launcher is. If LoS is broken at any time before the missile lands, the missile automatically misses. *ECM DOES NOT AFFECT TAG*. If LoS is maintained, the missile has to basically NOT roll a natural 2 to hit. It does 20 damage, broken up into 5 point segments, much like an LRM/20 who happened to roll an 11 or 12 and had every missile hit.

2) Call in Indirect LRM Fire.

Okay, this is a little trickier. Basically, you can fire LRM's 'indirect fire'. By doing so, you can actually fire at mechs you don't have LoS on. However, you have the following modifiers:
*The movement of the spotter mech
*The movement of the target mech
*Any terrain modifiers from the Spotter to the Target mech
*The movement of the mech firing the missiles
*Your range is calculated from your current position.
*An additional penalty for firing indirect

In other words, good effin' luck.

Normally.

Ya see, there's also an LRM round called 'Semi-Guided'. Basically, it negates the spotter mech movement and target mech movement penalties, and negates the penalty for firing indirect. So now the only real problems are the movement of the mech firing the missiles, and the terrain modifiers between Spotter and Target. You still count your 'range' from the mech firing the missiles.

Right.

So, combine the two:

The Spotter Mech has to hit the Target Mech with TAG. Once he does so, his buddy can launch missiles indirect. His modifiers include:

*His own movement
*Terrain mods between Spotter and Target
*Range is calculated from Spotter

Now, we get to have a bit of fun:

Say we've got a Hunchback with a C3 Slave unit and TAG, a pair of Catapults standing off out of LoS, and the 'Sargent' mech is an Archer with a C3 Master unit.

The Hunchback gets up to around 5 hexes and paints a Dire Wolf with Tag and achieves lock-up during Off-Board Fire Phase.

During the Firing Phase, two Catapults and the Archer use Semi-Guided loads in their LRM/20's. Six LRM's target the Dire Wolf.

Neither the Catapults nor the Archer moved. There are no negative terrain features between the Hunchback and the Dire Wolf.

All six LRM's are firing from Close range, with no other negative modifiers. In other words: they've got 4's or better.

The only problem? Semi-Guided is incompatible with Artemis FCS. However the weight of fire you can achieve with it used properly is... very powerful.

Now, here's another example:

We've got a Grand Melee going on, with lots of mechs on both sides.

There's a Mercury running around with a TAG system and C3 Slave. The mechs on the other side haven't bothered blowing him up, mostly because they've got a couple of Awesomes, a couple of Marauders, an Atlas, and a King Crab to worry about. The pissant light mech is pretty low on the target priority list right now.

Well, offboard are four Arrow IV missile launchers.

During the Offboard phase, the Mercury TAG's a Timber Wolf (a.k.a. the Madcat). Once lock-on has been achieved, all four Arrow IV launchers launch.

Also that round, the Atlas goes "Hey, that Mercury is inside 7 hexes of that Madcat, and I'm 20 hexes away. I'm gonna shoot my LRM/20 at it, and use C3 to consider it Close range". It'll still have his movement penalties, the Madcat's movement penalties, and any terrain mods, but hey... at effective Close range? It's worth the heat to try it.

Well, the Madcat does NOT like being TAG'd. Not one little bit. Because he *knows* he's the Blue Plate Special. But he's got a problem. If he torso-twists to fire at the Mercury, he'll be exposing his back to the Awesomes PPC's, which he does NOT want to be hitting his weaker rear armor. So he starts jumping around to try and block LoS. After two rounds, he fails to break LoS, and nothing else manages to kill the Mercury, so the four Arrow IV missiles hit the Madcat, which had already been hit once by the Atlas's LRM/20 before it's erratic movement made the firing solutions too poor to risk further shots. That's 80 damage, broken up into 5 point clumps. That's 16 hit location checks. That's pretty good odds that something is going to get through armor and start crit rolling, and it is even within the realm of possibility that you might get a headshot and force a pilot check to avoid unconsciousness or a 'golden beebee' shot on the center torso and risk blowing up the engine. Even if it doesn't? It's armor has been pretty thoroughly sandblasted, and just about any other weapon to hit it is going to punch through somewhere.

SparkMandriller

2009-10-18, 01:37 AM

See, this is why everyone should just plan Clan. They're too dumb to use any of this complex stuff.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-18, 02:06 AM

See, this is why everyone should just plan Clan. They're too dumb to use any of this complex stuff.

Meh, not everyone wants to play with IDDQD and IDKFA turned on.

Erloas

2009-10-18, 09:47 AM

Two corrections here:

C3i, on the other hand, are a free-flow tac-net, where taking out a Master unit won't drop everyone 'below' him out of the net, however you can only have five mechs in it.

...

Well, the Madcat does NOT like being TAG'd. Not one little bit. Because he *knows* he's the Blue Plate Special. But he's got a problem. If he torso-twists to fire at the Mercury, he'll be exposing his back to the Awesomes PPC's, which he does NOT want to be hitting his weaker rear armor.

A C3i network can have 6 units in it.

Also both types of networks can work with vehicles as well, not just 'Mechs. Wasn't really stated either way, but just wanted to make that clear. Since there are also vehicles loaded with LRMs and VTOLs make great spotters, they aren't going to survive any/many hits, but they have some amazing speed for getting where they need to be quickly and being hard to hit in the process.

As for the torso twist, it does not effect the firing arc for to-hit rolls against the 'Mech. So the Timber Wolf torso twisting to target the Mercury will have no effect on if the Awesome's PPCs hit it in the back or not. (page 99 TW) This is done to keep people from torso twisting their backs out of a firing arc, because that is much more likely to happen while still keep a target in the front arc.

Both TAG and C3 networks are great systems but they really up the power and potential of units that are designed to use them, a lot more then the BV of the network would suggest. It is really only fair to use if both sides are using it, or at very least aware that it is going to be fielded to take advantage of things like ECM. At least in friendly games, in tournaments then its all fine.

RandomLunatic

2009-10-18, 10:10 AM

Shneeky, you have a few flaws in your examples.

Note I am going by the latest artillery rules I have, the BMR(R). If they changed it up a lot in the new book (Tactical Operations?), let me know so I have more reason to get off my duff and upgrade.:smalltongue:

If the Madcat had ECM, however, the Atlas would be too close, and would get knocked out of the C3 network if it got closer than 4 hexes.

ECM has a range of 6 hexes.

These are artillery pieces, similar to a Long Tom, which can be fired Off-board. The 'spotter' mech has to hit with his TAG system (like any other weapon system), only doesn't roll for Hit Location if he does hit. He's got to keep LoS on the target mech until the missile can 'land', which can be a turn or two, depending on how many 'boards' away the Arrow IV launcher is. If LoS is broken at any time before the missile lands, the missile automatically misses. *ECM DOES NOT AFFECT TAG*. If LoS is maintained, the missile has to basically NOT roll a natural 2 to hit. It does 20 damage, broken up into 5 point segments, much like an LRM/20 who happened to roll an 11 or 12 and had every missile hit.

No, not quite. TAG does not get involved until the turn the missile arrives on the board. At the beginning of the turn (before you roll initiative), the controlling player must designate a single TAG-equipped unit he has to act as a spotter for the missile.

If, for any reason, the spotter cannot TAG the target during the Off-Board Attack Phase, the missile misses completely and explodes harmlessly.

If the target is TAGged, then the attacker rolls 2d6 for every inbound missile. On a 4+, the missile hits and deals 20 points of damage to a single location. Use the spotter's location relative to the target to determine which table to use. On a 2 or 3, the missile misses, but the target still takes 5 points to a single location.

Either way, all other units in the target's hex take 5 points of damage to a single location.

Now, we get to have a bit of fun:

Say we've got a Hunchback with a C3 Slave unit and TAG, a pair of Catapults standing off out of LoS, and the 'Sargent' mech is an Archer with a C3 Master unit.

The Hunchback gets up to around 5 hexes and paints a Dire Wolf with Tag and achieves lock-up during Off-Board Fire Phase.

During the Firing Phase, two Catapults and the Archer use Semi-Guided loads in their LRM/20's. Six LRM's target the Dire Wolf.

Neither the Catapults nor the Archer moved. There are no negative terrain features between the Hunchback and the Dire Wolf.

All six LRM's are firing from Close range, with no other negative modifiers. In other words: they've got 4's or better.

The only problem? Semi-Guided is incompatible with Artemis FCS. However the weight of fire you can achieve with it used properly is... very powerful.No, there is a second problem; a royally POed Dire Wolf obliterates your spotter, which pretty much leaves you up the creek without a paddle. I wonder why no example of using SG-LRMs this way ever, ever mentions this.

We've got a Grand Melee going on, with lots of mechs on both sides.

There's a Mercury running around with a TAG system and C3 Slave. The mechs on the other side haven't bothered blowing him up, mostly because they've got a couple of Awesomes, a couple of Marauders, an Atlas, and a King Crab to worry about. The pissant light mech is pretty low on the target priority list right now.

Well, offboard are four Arrow IV missile launchers.

During the Offboard phase, the Mercury TAG's a Timber Wolf (a.k.a. the Madcat). Once lock-on has been achieved, all four Arrow IV launchers launch.Remembering that TAGging does not have to occur until the missiles reach the board, apparantly the Mercury just wants to be annoying.

Also that round, the Atlas goes "Hey, that Mercury is inside 7 hexes of that Madcat, and I'm 20 hexes away. I'm gonna shoot my LRM/20 at it, and use C3 to consider it Close range". It'll still have his movement penalties, the Madcat's movement penalties, and any terrain mods, but hey... at effective Close range? It's worth the heat to try it.

Well, the Madcat does NOT like being TAG'd. Not one little bit. Because he *knows* he's the Blue Plate Special. But he's got a problem. If he torso-twists to fire at the Mercury, he'll be exposing his back to the Awesomes PPC's, which he does NOT want to be hitting his weaker rear armor.Torso-twisting does not alter what table you get hit on.
So he starts jumping around to try and block LoS. After two rounds, he fails to break LoS, and nothing else manages to kill the Mercury, so the four Arrow IV missiles hit the Madcat,Only if the Mercury manages to TAG the Timber Wolf, and roll 4+ four times. I will assume a successful TAG, with three hits and one miss.
which had already been hit once by the Atlas's LRM/20 before it's erratic movement made the firing solutions too poor to risk further shots. That's 80 damage, broken up into 5 point clumps. That's 16 hit location checks. That's pretty good odds that something is going to get through armor and start crit rolling, and it is even within the realm of possibility that you might get a headshot and force a pilot check to avoid unconsciousness or a 'golden beebee' shot on the center torso and risk blowing up the engine. Even if it doesn't? It's armor has been pretty thoroughly sandblasted, and just about any other weapon to hit it is going to punch through somewhere.The Timber Wolf takes three 20-point and one 5-point hit, which is going to leave some major holes in the armor, if not destroy a location outright.

Meh, not everyone wants to play with IDDQDand IDKFA turned on.This ain't DOOM. *Engages self-destruct*

Cookie for the reference.

EDIT: Partially ninja'd.

Philistine

2009-10-18, 12:53 PM

To expound on what Tyckspoon said, as I use both of these systems fairly regularly:

C3 stands for Command, Control, Communication. I prefer the Master/Slave units, because they can be 'Tiered'. Thus you can have a Command Lance with a 'Commander" having one Master unit and three "Lieutenants" with a Slave to said Master, and another Master themselves. Each of these three Leutenants are connected to "Sargent", who also has a Master and a Slave, and each Sargent has three squad-mates with him. That's... a lot of mechs tied into one tac-net. C3i, on the other hand, are a free-flow tac-net, where taking out a Master unit won't drop everyone 'below' him out of the net, however you can only have five mechs in it.

Actually... (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3_Master_Computer)

Intended for reconnaissance 'Mechs or vehicles, the C3 Command Unit, also known as C3 Master Computer, is the central hub of a C3 Network and allows linked units to share radar and targeting data on the lance or company levels.

Normally carried by the lance commander, the C3 Command Unit is the hub to which three C3 Slave Units on other friendly 'Mechs can connect. However C3 Command Units can also linked in this manner to expand the network, the command units of each of lance commanders can be connected to a second separate command unit carried by the company command 'Mech/vehicle. Due to complexity required to coordinate C3 networks, they can not be expanded beyond company size, or multiple companies linked together, even with the addition of extra command vehicles. The limitations in unit size are part of the reason for the ComStar developed Improved C3 Computer.

First Bolding: "Lance level" is explicitly defined as four 'Mechs in the setting, and "company level" is 12. This is the first indication that the standard C3 net can only be tiered once.

Second Bolding: The C3 master unit duplicates the functions of a C3 slave unit; there's never any need to have both on the same 'Mech.

Third Bolding: The company commander (who is also one of the lance commanders) has to have two C3 master units onboard in order to integrate all three lances. See the canon Naginata (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naginata) (TR 3055, NG-C3B Variant) and Tai-sho (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tai-sho_%28BattleMech%29) (TR 3060) 'Mechs. (Also see the utter lack of canon 'Mechs with both a C3 Master and a C3 Slave.)

Fourth Bolding: This again gives us a maximum of 12 'Mechs on any particular C3 network. The 'or' in "or multiple companies linked together" might appear to confuse the subject save for the final clause of the sentence, which specifies that supplying additional command units will not further expand the network - and as a Company-level net is the largest described to that point, that is clearly the maximum size possible under the rules.

So the correct setup for a Company-level C3 network is as follows:
One Company Commander, with 2 C3 master computers: one unit to establish a Lance-level network with the C3 slave links of his lancemates, and one to integrate the data from that network with the other two Lance networks.
Two Lance Commanders, each with a C3 master computer: this establishes a Lance-level C3 network with the C3 slave links of his lancemates, and also doubles as a C3 slave link reporting under the Company commander's second C3 master unit.
Nine additional units, each with a C3 slave unit tied in to their respective Lance commanders: this brings the total number of 'Mechs on the network to Twelve, which is the maximum.

Also, to echo RandomLunatic: a Hunchback that's closed to within 5 hexes of a Dire Wolf has an approximate life expectancy of OMGI'mDeadWhenDidThatHappen. Likewise a Mercury waltzing through a Grand Melee full of Heavy and Assault 'Mechs, any one of which can core him like a rotten apple with a single salvo. Possibly with a single weapon. TAG is a medium-range system; your spotter has to get fairly close in order to reliably designate targets with it. Likewise your C3 network doesn't do you much good unless at least one member of the networked unit is within spitting distance of the target. This is not to say that these system aren't useful, or that they can't change the flow of a battle, because they can - but for that very reason, if your opponent is at all competent (read not a Clanner) you should expect your spotters to get swatted like bugs.

NeoVid

2009-10-18, 01:26 PM

Honestly Dark Age ruined the Clans for me. Now I just want them all to die.

Good, good. Inner Sphere forever!

Anyway, this thread motivated me to dig out all my old Battletech stuff I got and painted up in '92-93, and I noticed something...

The color scheme I used for the majority of my 'Mechs in those days turned out to be exactly the scheme used by the Republic Knights of the Sphere, my main faction in Dark Age.

Huh.

Too bad classic continuity is only up to the Word of Blake Jihad, so it'll be a while before I could really use Republic forces in classic.

...I've got to read up on the Jihad. I just started wondering how an organization with a total of 10,000 members took over most of the Inner Sphere. I know that's how many they had when Thomas Marik handed them planet Gibson.

Erloas

2009-10-18, 09:05 PM

The color scheme I used for the majority of my 'Mechs in those days turned out to be exactly the scheme used by the Republic Knights of the Sphere, my main faction in Dark Age.

What is their color scheme? I tried to look it up but haven't had much luck finding them. I think some units used black and white, some used maroon and grey, at least of what I could find.

Camospecs.com doesn't have any 'Mechs from The Republic of the Sphere.

One thing about Battletech is that there are a lot of different units, each faction generally has a lot of different units and some have completely different color schemes from the main part of the faction.
So you can just claim another faction for a while. Easiest way I've found to find units that use a specific color scheme is to just put those colors in the search on camospecs.com.

As for the Dark Ages, I really don't know anything about that time period. I've heard a lot of people didn't really care for it. It was only done in the clix version and they specifically set that in its own timeline for whatever reason. I'm wondering if the official timeline will follow that. I doubt they would change it but its possible they could go a new way post jihad.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-18, 10:31 PM

Actually... (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3_Master_Computer)

First Bolding: "Lance level" is explicitly defined as four 'Mechs in the setting, and "company level" is 12. This is the first indication that the standard C3 net can only be tiered once. This is correct, my apologies, I was remembering a more obsolescent version in which you could have two tiers.

Second Bolding: The C3 master unit duplicates the functions of a C3 slave unit; there's never any need to have both on the same 'Mech. Really? Never noticed that before...

Third Bolding: The company commander (who is also one of the lance commanders) has to have two C3 master units onboard in order to integrate all three lances. See the canon Naginata (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naginata) (TR 3055, NG-C3B Variant) and Tai-sho (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tai-sho_%28BattleMech%29) (TR 3060) 'Mechs. (Also see the utter lack of canon 'Mechs with both a C3 Master and a C3 Slave.) Untrue. As of Classic Battletech Master Rules, Revised Edition, you do not have to have 2 Master units on a single mech, however you do need to have a 'master' unit for the 'command mech'. Now, you *CAN* have a mech with two Master C3 units, but you can also have a 'command lance' wherin you have two mechs with a Master, and two slaves. One of the Masters runs the 'command lance', the other one is used to key the other two lances off of. It is explicitly listed as an Alternate Configuration on page 135.

Fourth Bolding: This again gives us a maximum of 12 'Mechs on any particular C3 network. The 'or' in "or multiple companies linked together" might appear to confuse the subject save for the final clause of the sentence, which specifies that supplying additional command units will not further expand the network - and as a Company-level net is the largest described to that point, that is clearly the maximum size possible under the rules. True, but you can have multiple C3 nets floating around, independent of each other, but integrate when you take casualties. Thus I have two different networks of 12 mechs in 4-man lances. The first network looses their Command Lance and takes casualties in Lance B, and the second network looses Lance A and takes casualties in Lance B. You can re-network them all to function as one Network, assuming you still have enough Master units to go around.

So the correct setup for a Company-level C3 network is as follows:
One Company Commander, with 2 C3 master computers: one unit to establish a Lance-level network with the C3 slave links of his lancemates, and one to integrate the data from that network with the other two Lance networks.
Two Lance Commanders, each with a C3 master computer: this establishes a Lance-level C3 network with the C3 slave links of his lancemates, and also doubles as a C3 slave link reporting under the Company commander's second C3 master unit.
Nine additional units, each with a C3 slave unit tied in to their respective Lance commanders: this brings the total number of 'Mechs on the network to Twelve, which is the maximum. Right, you don't have to have two Master units in a single mech, you can have two seperate mechs in the Command Lance each with a Master unit.

Also, to echo RandomLunatic: a Hunchback that's closed to within 5 hexes of a Dire Wolf has an approximate life expectancy of OMGI'mDeadWhenDidThatHappen. Likewise a Mercury waltzing through a Grand Melee full of Heavy and Assault 'Mechs, any one of which can core him like a rotten apple with a single salvo. Possibly with a single weapon. TAG is a medium-range system; your spotter has to get fairly close in order to reliably designate targets with it. Likewise your C3 network doesn't do you much good unless at least one member of the networked unit is within spitting distance of the target. This is not to say that these system aren't useful, or that they can't change the flow of a battle, because they can - but for that very reason, if your opponent is at all competent (read not a Clanner) you should expect your spotters to get swatted like bugs.

This was simply used as an example, however if I had a choice of shooting at a Mercury or shooting at an Awesome... I don't think I'd be sparing the mercury any attention unless it started trying to sneak around for a backshot.

Also, I'd probably say that 'fairly close' is not a really accurate description of the range needed to reliably Tag something. It's got a maximum range of 15, after all. So Medium Range is 9. It's not long-distance, no, but it's not within 3 hexes or anything.

Personally, I like putting TAG on mechs designed to close and give a pounding. Things like Berzerkers, Atlases, King Crabs... although a Mercury is quick enough that it's a PITA to try and actually hit one, specially with MASC on and moving over 10 hexes. YOU try locking something up with a +4 on your attack roll... so you either have piss-poor targeting solutions on a minor insignificance, or you have a decent shot at a very dangerous threat... which one would you pop a shot at?

A typical lance I use of Medium mechs, designed to face opponent Medium mechs, would be a Hunchback, a Hatchetman (upgraded to correct horrid flaws in armor and weapon design), and a pair of Catapults (upgraded with jump jets, C3, and Semi-Guided Missiles). The Hunchback and the Hatchetman need to close to do anything anyways, the Catapults simply hang back and rain missiles down on targets. They could probably stand their own against an equivalent BV of Clanners, but likely take some damage in the process, and loose at least one or two mechs in the process.

Erloas

2009-10-19, 06:18 PM

Philistine

2009-10-19, 08:15 PM

Untrue. As of Classic Battletech Master Rules, Revised Edition, you do not have to have 2 Master units on a single mech, however you do need to have a 'master' unit for the 'command mech'. Now, you *CAN* have a mech with two Master C3 units, but you can also have a 'command lance' wherin you have two mechs with a Master, and two slaves. One of the Masters runs the 'command lance', the other one is used to key the other two lances off of. It is explicitly listed as an Alternate Configuration on page 135.
Fair enough. I'm still going from the old rulebooks I bought years ago (before WizKids got hold of the franchise, in fact), and was unaware of this revision. That makes company-scale networks quite a bit more appealing: while it only saves a total of one ton across the company as a whole, it distributes the load much better. And obvious "Commanders' Vehicles" are also obvious priority targets for opponents, so getting rid of those is a huge boost to the concept as well.

This was simply used as an example, however if I had a choice of shooting at a Mercury or shooting at an Awesome... I don't think I'd be sparing the mercury any attention unless it started trying to sneak around for a backshot.
But if the Mercury is designating targets for one or more Arrow IV batteries with TAG and/or spotting targets for his Awesome buddy with C3, then it's as dangerous as that Awesome, if not more so. It's also much more fragile: you have an excellent chance of crippling it, or even killing it outright, with a single hit. Spending one round to smash the spotter - thereby greatly reducing the overall threat posed by the OPFOR - is the obvious best course of action here.

Also, I'd probably say that 'fairly close' is not a really accurate description of the range needed to reliably Tag something. It's got a maximum range of 15, after all. So Medium Range is 9. It's not long-distance, no, but it's not within 3 hexes or anything.
It's a medium-range system. Getting to effective TAGging range means getting right smack into the kill zones of:
all LRMs
all MRMs
Clan Streak SRMs
all PPCs
all Large Lasers
ERMLs and Clan MPLs
most Autocannon (any AC/10 or smaller, plus the LB 20-X)
all Gauss Rifles, and
Plasma Rifles.
Several of the items on that list can kill, or at least cripple, a light 'Mech with a single shot. And the TAGger, at medium range, will be perilously close to entering short range brackets of some of them, including the very dangerous Gauss Rifles and cERPPCs.

Personally, I like putting TAG on mechs designed to close and give a pounding. Things like Berzerkers, Atlases, King Crabs... although a Mercury is quick enough that it's a PITA to try and actually hit one, specially with MASC on and moving over 10 hexes. YOU try locking something up with a +4 on your attack roll... so you either have piss-poor targeting solutions on a minor insignificance, or you have a decent shot at a very dangerous threat... which one would you pop a shot at?
I agree that adding TAG to heavyweight bruiser-type 'Mechs is the way to go...

Sooner or later - and probably sooner, except on the hypothetical flat featureless plain - that Mercury is going to have to slow down to turn (at least burn MP to change heading). Even moreso on a battlefield crowded with heavy and assault 'Mechs, where sooner or later - and probably sooner - that Mercury is going to find himself caught between the frying pan and the fire, unable to avoid giving somebody a clear shot...

You seem to be trying to have it both ways here. The spotter is only "a minor insignificance" if the units he's spotting for are not a serious danger. If they do pose a credible threat, as I believe we both agree that they do, then the spotter IS NOT "a minor insignificance," he's the proverbial "eggshell with a sledgehammer." And however hard he may be to hit, the odds are that you'll only have to hit him once...

As I've said a couple of times already, it's well worth spending a round to squish the spotter.

Tangential side note: I LOVE it when OPFORs include MASC-equipped 'Mechs. If they don't use it, it's wasted tonnage; if they do, then sooner or later the PSR WILL bite them on the ass. It gets 'em every time. Every. Single. Time.

A typical lance I use of Medium mechs, designed to face opponent Medium mechs, would be a Hunchback, a Hatchetman (upgraded to correct horrid flaws in armor and weapon design), and a pair of Catapults (upgraded with jump jets, C3, and Semi-Guided Missiles). The Hunchback and the Hatchetman need to close to do anything anyways, the Catapults simply hang back and rain missiles down on targets. They could probably stand their own against an equivalent BV of Clanners, but likely take some damage in the process, and loose at least one or two mechs in the process.
This lance is still vulnerable to having the spotter 'Mechs focus-fired and obliterated, which will greatly reduce the threat posed by the Catapults while they're being mopped up - and I note that neither of these spotters is capable of working up enough speed to give opponents major targeting difficulties. (I also wonder which of these 'Mechs is running with the C3 Master...) I also note that all of these are on the slow side for medium 'Mechs (though of course the Catapults are in fact heavies), making the entire force susceptible to being picked apart by a lance of 3025-era Griffins (which clocks in at 220t total vs 225t for your lance, and depending on the mods you've made to the HCT and the CPLTs, probably "costs" less BV as well).

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-19, 09:00 PM

This lance is still vulnerable to having the spotter 'Mechs focus-fired and obliterated, which will greatly reduce the threat posed by the Catapults while they're being mopped up - and I note that neither of these spotters is capable of working up enough speed to give opponents major targeting difficulties. (I also wonder which of these 'Mechs is running with the C3 Master...) I also note that all of these are on the slow side for medium 'Mechs (though of course the Catapults are in fact heavies), making the entire force susceptible to being picked apart by a lance of 3025-era Griffins (which clocks in at 220t total vs 225t for your lance, and depending on the mods you've made to the HCT and the CPLTs, probably "costs" less BV as well).

You've got two different mechs to 'focus fire', as both have TAG (only a ton, so not a huge back-breaker). Meanwhile, I will be using similar 'focus fire' tactics on YOUR mechs, with my LRM/20's from the Archers being hellishly accurate. Granted, I'm going to loose mechs. Of course. But the point is, I can likely give better than I can get.

NeoVid

2009-10-19, 09:30 PM

What is their color scheme? I tried to look it up but haven't had much luck finding them. I think some units used black and white, some used maroon and grey, at least of what I could find.

The Knights and the Republic Armed Forces had entirely different schemes. The RAF troops had the dark grey/dark red you're thinking of, the Knights used the colors of the Republic's symbol; mostly black with dark blue sections.

And yeah, as much as I like all of BattleTech's timeline in general, the Dark Age had its annoying parts. I never really saw the point of the HPG network takedown, since it seemed like it was meant to establish whoever managed that IS-wide act of crippling sabotage as a terrifyingly important new player, but whatever did it was never revealed, far as I know.

Philistine

2009-10-20, 02:18 AM

You've got two different mechs to 'focus fire', as both have TAG (only a ton, so not a huge back-breaker). Meanwhile, I will be using similar 'focus fire' tactics on YOUR mechs, with my LRM/20's from the Archers being hellishly accurate. Granted, I'm going to loose mechs. Of course. But the point is, I can likely give better than I can get.
Actually, with the stated lance configuration, you probably can't. Your close-in team are too slow, too heavily skewed toward short-range weapons, and too light to withstand the pounding they'll take as they slowly close the range; they're worse off than the Atlas from the previous thread in that they are likely to find themselves up against 'Mechs which are not only faster than themselves but also more heavily armed and armored, and also in that they don't take nearly as much stopping as an Atlas does. Their opponents will control the range and pick them apart at leisure, quite possibly without their having an opportunity to return fire - they will, in short, be out-run and out-gunned until they fall over dead.

Your fire support team, for its part, is utterly dependent on targeting information from the close-in team (for which see the preceding) in order to hit anything at all in indirect fire mode, and spends too much cash (and BV) on premium ammunition which will lose its extra efficacy when - not if - you lose your spotters.

As I said before: advanced tech or no advanced tech, this lance as described would be highly vulnerable to a quartet of unmodified 3025-era medium 'Mechs. Against a semi-competent OPFOR using IS Level 2 or 3 or (heaven help us) Clan tech, this unit should expect to get owned hard.

9mm

2009-10-20, 12:04 PM

Massed battery fire is best done with a dedicated fire unit (like say a company of Hueys) with tag stuck onto transports - med wheght brawlers; anything higher than that should be able to rake off armor without much outside help.

At least that's my experience; but I've been told I'm a bit of an unconventional player.

Erloas

2009-10-20, 02:48 PM

Has anyone had a chance to see the 25 Years of Art and Fiction book yet? I think its only been out for a week now. I'm thinking about picking it up but I'm not sure if its worth the $50 and there aren't any LGS around to look at it first. Its either buy it online without seeing it or not buying it.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-20, 03:08 PM

Actually, with the stated lance configuration, you probably can't. Your close-in team are too slow, too heavily skewed toward short-range weapons, and too light to withstand the pounding they'll take as they slowly close the range; they're worse off than the Atlas from the previous thread in that they are likely to find themselves up against 'Mechs which are not only faster than themselves but also more heavily armed and armored, and also in that they don't take nearly as much stopping as an Atlas does. Their opponents will control the range and pick them apart at leisure, quite possibly without their having an opportunity to return fire - they will, in short, be out-run and out-gunned until they fall over dead.

Your fire support team, for its part, is utterly dependent on targeting information from the close-in team (for which see the preceding) in order to hit anything at all in indirect fire mode, and spends too much cash (and BV) on premium ammunition which will lose its extra efficacy when - not if - you lose your spotters.

As I said before: advanced tech or no advanced tech, this lance as described would be highly vulnerable to a quartet of unmodified 3025-era medium 'Mechs. Against a semi-competent OPFOR using IS Level 2 or 3 or (heaven help us) Clan tech, this unit should expect to get owned hard.

Using exactly this setup, I've won multiple engagements vs clan mechs. Perhaps my opponent was merely incompetent? Or do you know of any way a medium mech is going to survive over 100 damage per round? Average of 40/round, plus the Ultra AC/20 from the hunchback. Sure, they take their licks. But unless you can one-round me, I *WILL* one-round you.

Narudude360

2009-10-20, 09:44 PM

Haha, I bought Viva Pinata for the PC over at Half Price Books a few months ago (and WoW) and it had MechWarrior 2 in there on accident. 3 for 2!

Erloas

2009-10-20, 10:51 PM

Using exactly this setup, I've won multiple engagements vs clan mechs. Perhaps my opponent was merely incompetent? Or do you know of any way a medium mech is going to survive over 100 damage per round? Average of 40/round, plus the Ultra AC/20 from the hunchback. Sure, they take their licks. But unless you can one-round me, I *WILL* one-round you.

Well at least against Clan forces you should have a decent shot since your group seems to come in at about 5000 points (maybe less, hard to say without knowing exact configs) which would be 1 assault 'Mech or maybe one heavy one medium/light depending on pilots. So you would have a definite number advantage and with it supperior total firepower.
Although all of your 'Mechs are only 4/6 so it wouldn't be hard for a Clan 'Mech to dictate range to a good extent. Then it would depend on if they are playing clan like Clan is supposed to be and what sort of limiting factors are in the terrain.
The biggest issue I see with both of your closing 'Mechs is they can't take more then a single Clan ER PPC without internal in just about every location. It would come down a lot to what can be done in the first 2-3 rounds when you are in good range for the clan weapons but outside range of your brawlers and still not close enough to help your LRM boats at all.

As for against another IS group... Well then you are going to loose your number advantage and probably have a fairly even amount of firepower on each side. Without C3 they might have the firepower advantage too. It would come down to who can dictate range. With a mixed range lance you have some potential holes, as well as possible advantages. If they have a full long range lance, especially with larger long range weapons they might be able to take out one or both your brawlers prior to closing range. If they stay at close to max range you either have to advance all your 'Mechs and end up with your missile boats close to your brawlers or having your missile boats fall out of range while the brawlers advance. If they have all brawlers and they are forced to come at you then it will depend on how you play it mostly. If you hold back everything and soften them up with range you should be good when they close to counter-attack with your brawlers and start finishing them off fairly quickly. However if you move your brawlers up they are going to take a lot of concentrated fire, and of course medium/short range configs almost always have the advantage in total firepower and will probably be dropping your 'Mechs faster then you can drop theres.

Overall though I really like that setup. Not sure if the C3 network is entirely necessary to make it work well though. Of course C3 networks will always make mixed groups more effective, it just depends if the network can pay for itself in lost direct firepower and battlevalue. I haven't specced out C3 networks much, but I don't think they come cheap.
I'm not entirely sure if the semi-guided missiles are really worth it either, since indirect fire does not benefit from at all from a C3 network (other then the fact that the Master has a built in TAG system). If you are out of LOS (and therefor using indirect fire) then you loose that great range advantage from C3. Semi-guided of course then required TAG to get its bonus, which is far from a guarantee, though not too bad if you have 2 of them.

Philistine

2009-10-21, 11:35 PM

Using exactly this setup, I've won multiple engagements vs clan mechs. Perhaps my opponent was merely incompetent? Or do you know of any way a medium mech is going to survive over 100 damage per round? Average of 40/round, plus the Ultra AC/20 from the hunchback. Sure, they take their licks. But unless you can one-round me, I *WILL* one-round you.

I'm trying to think of any possible way this setup could win against an equivalent BV* of Clan tech, and the only thing I can come up with is that your opponent ignored his own advantages - superior speed and long-range firepower, the latter compounded by the better average stats of Clan Mechwarriors - to charge mindlessly into point-blank range. So, yeah: "incompetence" does appear to be the shoe that fits. A competent opponent would use his superior speed to dictate the range of the engagement, keeping the HCT and HBK out at about 10 hexes range where they can neither return fire nor effectively TAG for the missile boats due to the combination of long range and movement modifiers, and pick you apart from arms' length. There are a large number of light and medium Clan Omnis, and even a couple of heavies, with 6/9/x or better speed, most of which have at least one variant optimized for long-range fire. And those are just the TR varieties, before any custom configurations enter play! They probably wouldn't survive 100+ dpr, no - but the point is that they should never, ever have to.

That's assuming you can actually inflict that much pain, of course. If you're claiming that UAC always hit twice when they fire twice, as you seem to be doing, then I'll have to say there's a degree of incompetence on both sides of that table. If you hit with a UAC firing at double rate, you then roll on the Missile Hits table, which gives you a 42% chance of hitting twice (roll 8+ on 2d6). Most of the time you won't - and there's no way to improve that target number. That's why UAC are, as the good Admiral would say, A TRAP. Half the ammunition endurance and double the heat generation, for 40% more damage on average, plus the off chance of a weapon jam rendering your big gun inoperable for the rest of the fight. The UAC/20 is doubly a trap, as the AC/20 is generally inferior to a quartet of medium lasers and a half-dozen extra single heat sinks even before the Ultra's additional drawbacks enter into the mix; the UAC/20 is generally inferior to 6 MLs and 2 extra DHS. Personally, I use the UAC/20 only as a punchline.

* I make the BV for your force just under 5k for unmodified 3025-era models of these 'Mechs; adding Level 2/3 tech will only drive that figure up. On the same budget, a Clan opponent might purchase anything from one or two heavy/assault 'Mechs to an entire Star of lights. Most of his options will be able to out-run your force; virtually all of them will out-gun you (especially at range); a good few will do both, some by a goodly margin. Clan tech is just disgusting that way.

Erloas

2009-10-22, 10:11 AM

I'm trying to think of any possible way this setup could win against an equivalent BV* of Clan tech, and the only thing I can come up with is that your opponent ignored his own advantages - superior speed and long-range firepower, the latter compounded by the better average stats of Clan Mechwarriors - to charge mindlessly into point-blank range.

What Clan 'Mechs are you planning on using? You mentioned a possible quartet of 'Mechs, and if you put clan pilots in clan 'Mechs that limits your base 'Mech BV to ~900 to keep all four under about 1250 to get 4 for 5000 points. That leaves you with about a dozen choices, all are 20-25 tons and their longest range energy weapons are generally single ER-ML, the few longer range weapons are generally things like LRM-5s and a few AC-2/5s.
Even if you change to base 4/5 pilots that still doesn't increase your choices a whole lot, there simply aren't many clan 'Mechs in the sub 1300 BV range.
You would have the speed advantage but you wouldn't have a single 'Mech that could take more then 10 points before going internal anywhere, some can't even take 5 before going internal in some locations. So you might out maneuver him but you aren't going to out range or out damage him and its only going to take a lucky hit or two before 'Mechs start becoming useless. Each one of his 'Mechs has almost double the armor of your 'Mechs.

If you wanted to go bigger you are pretty much guaranteed to only have 2 'Mechs. With clan pilots that gives you 2 'Mechs with a base BV around 1800, which are either more powerful lights or underpowered (in clan terms) mediums and the occasional heavy. Each of your 'Mechs is probably going to have about the same armor his does, but he has twice as many as you. Your single 'Mech firepower will be greater, but factoring in heat probably not a huge amount more powerful, at least no where near as powerful as two of his.
If you want to get into the well known and powerful clan 'Mechs you are looking at 2200-3400 BV base or 3000-4800 with clan pilots. So one good clan 'Mech and one cheap clan 'Mech, maybe just a single 'Mech.
The main issue with most large Clan 'Mechs is heat, they have some amazing alpha-strike power but they have big heat issues with it, and if you are staying at range using maybe 2 long range energy weapons to maintain heat levels then you are paying a lot of points for a lot of weapons you aren't using.

Could you win by staying at max range and sniping with 1-2 ER PPCs? Most likely, but thats not very clan like and a long as slow boring game from a player standpoint as well. It also only works if you have an almost infinite playing field to run in. In most cases your opponent run one 'Mech up each flank and force the clan 'Mech(s) into a corner where they either have to run past you (and towards the Catapults) and into good range for at least turn or two or you eventually close on them anyway because they are out of room to run.
If there are any objectives to the game besides "just kill" it is also a tactic that will not work because you will either never be able to get to your objective or never be able to hold an objective (depending if you are on offensive or defensive objective) without closing range.

Philistine

2009-10-22, 07:59 PM

What Clan 'Mechs are you planning on using? You mentioned a possible quartet of 'Mechs, and if you put clan pilots in clan 'Mechs that limits your base 'Mech BV to ~900 to keep all four under about 1250 to get 4 for 5000 points. That leaves you with about a dozen choices, all are 20-25 tons and their longest range energy weapons are generally single ER-ML, the few longer range weapons are generally things like LRM-5s and a few AC-2/5s.
Even if you change to base 4/5 pilots that still doesn't increase your choices a whole lot, there simply aren't many clan 'Mechs in the sub 1300 BV range.
You would have the speed advantage but you wouldn't have a single 'Mech that could take more then 10 points before going internal anywhere, some can't even take 5 before going internal in some locations. So you might out maneuver him but you aren't going to out range or out damage him and its only going to take a lucky hit or two before 'Mechs start becoming useless. Each one of his 'Mechs has almost double the armor of your 'Mechs.

If you wanted to go bigger you are pretty much guaranteed to only have 2 'Mechs. With clan pilots that gives you 2 'Mechs with a base BV around 1800, which are either more powerful lights or underpowered (in clan terms) mediums and the occasional heavy. Each of your 'Mechs is probably going to have about the same armor his does, but he has twice as many as you. Your single 'Mech firepower will be greater, but factoring in heat probably not a huge amount more powerful, at least no where near as powerful as two of his.
If you want to get into the well known and powerful clan 'Mechs you are looking at 2200-3400 BV base or 3000-4800 with clan pilots. So one good clan 'Mech and one cheap clan 'Mech, maybe just a single 'Mech.
The main issue with most large Clan 'Mechs is heat, they have some amazing alpha-strike power but they have big heat issues with it, and if you are staying at range using maybe 2 long range energy weapons to maintain heat levels then you are paying a lot of points for a lot of weapons you aren't using.

Could you win by staying at max range and sniping with 1-2 ER PPCs? Most likely, but thats not very clan like and a long as slow boring game from a player standpoint as well. It also only works if you have an almost infinite playing field to run in. In most cases your opponent run one 'Mech up each flank and force the clan 'Mech(s) into a corner where they either have to run past you (and towards the Catapults) and into good range for at least turn or two or you eventually close on them anyway because they are out of room to run.
If there are any objectives to the game besides "just kill" it is also a tactic that will not work because you will either never be able to get to your objective or never be able to hold an objective (depending if you are on offensive or defensive objective) without closing range.

First: BV Shenanigans. The "5k BV Budget" idea is simply wrong. 5k would be the total BV for the unmodified 3025-era base variants of the 'Mechs named; these all have been upgraded more or less extensively. The Catapults have had Jump Jets and C3 added, and they've also apparently had their missile launchers upgraded from LRM-15s to LRM-20s. Or possibly they were replaced by Archers - the posts seem to be somewhat confused on this topic. The Hunchback has had its AC/20 downgraded to a UAC/20 (which probably needs an additional ton or two of ammunition as well); it's also the most likely candidate to be carrying the lance's C3 Master. Finally, the Hatchetman has been extensively modified "to correct horrid flaws in armor and weapon design." 5k was the floor; the ceiling will be rather higher and might well exceed 6k, depending on the exact modifications in play.

Also, as I stated earlier I'm working from old rulebooks - all the figures I have for Clan 'Mechs are BV1, and they're nowhere near as high as the numbers you're throwing around. Most IS 'Mechs seem to have gotten a ~10% price bump in the transition from BV1 to BV2 based on the information at the Battletech Wiki, and I was assuming that the relative values remained in a similar range; but if Clan tech got a much larger cost adjustment than even L2/L3 IS tech, well, that skews things. Not enough to change the point though, I don't think, unless the increase in BV for Clan tech was really massive: a single fast Clan 'Mech with an ERLL can still run rings around this lance all day, closing to snipe when he wins initiative and opening the range again when he doesn't; alternatively, a single Heavy or Assault in an Alpha-strike configuration has an excellent chance of putting any medium 'Mech in existence on the ground each time he cuts loose (usually every other round - starting two to three rounds before the IS player can return fire at all).

Second: Weapons and Tactics. Of course the Clan player can win by hanging out at max range and sniping with a single long range energy weapon, and there's nothing the IS player can do about it with this lance setup. Does it draw the game out? Well, each IS Mech will last until it's hit once in the head, or twice in most any other location, so yeah, probably - and it will certainly take longer than a game in which the Clan player ignores every advantage he has in favor of charging blindly into point-blank range and flailing about uselessly. Of course, I happen to think that games which feature intelligent tactics are more interesting than games where the players emulate particularly bad AIs, but YMMV. Does it make for a boring game? It undoubtedly does for the IS player - so next time around maybe he'll take that as encouragement not to pick such a frakking useless one-dimensional team.

Furthermore, I cannot imagine anything that could possibly be more Clan-like than using superior tech and tactics to defeat a force that both outnumbers and out-masses you by a significant margin. Isn't that pretty much the whole point of their entire culture? Where is it written that all Clanners must always close in to point-blank range? Even when driving fast 'Mechs configured as scout/snipers? Clan ROE is stupid restrictive (emphasis on "stupid"), but not that harsh. Of course, some Clans (Wolves, Nova Cats, some Jade Falcons) are more tactically flexible to begin with. Others decree that the rules of honorable combat don't apply when fighting mercenary units, as I assume this is. And all those rules go out the window anyway the very first time two of the IS 'Mechs fire on the same target.

Next, you probably don't need an infinite plain to run in unless the battlefield is a featureless plain. Terrain lets you do things like change directions and open up distance on your new heading without coming into your opponent's LoS until you're once again safely out from under his guns. And - apart from the sad gameyness of the thing, as the so-called tactic depends entirely on the fact that maps have edges - I can't see the "run a 'Mech up each edge of the map" idea working unless you're fighting on a single mapsheet; adding even one more sheet side-by-side with the first puts the opposite edges too far apart for your now-scattered units to support one another. This is quite possibly the worst thing you could do, as it allows the Clan player to pick and choose which of your isolated forces to eliminate. And of course, if the opponent has enough of a speed margin, especially if he has jump jets as well (say, 7/11/7 or 8/12/8), he can reverse his direction of "retreat" any time he wins initiative by jumping past your 'Mechs after you've moved, and taking off the way you both came on the next turn.

And finally, if there are any objectives besides "just kill" in the game, that's great news for the Clan player: he can disengage at will and move on to a different objective, which will be undefended because the defenders are still trudging along somewhere between it and the last one. Though I'm not sure what your objection is, here: it's not as if the Clanner can't kill the IS 'Mechs, after all. He's perfectly capable of reaching the objective point, he just needs to kill the force defending it first. Which he can do, and likely will do, assuming he even halfway knows what he's doing.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-22, 08:14 PM

You are assuming I let Clan use their range advantage. I use flamers to create smoke and block LoS when they play the range game, forcing them to close to be able to affect me. Assuming I don't have terrain features that can block LoS without using the Flamer.

There are many ways to lessen or negate Clan's advantages, you just have to think outside the box.

And yes, all four mechs were upgraded with Tech Level 2 gear. Catapults went with an IS XL Engine (actually less BV than regular, due to explodability), Jump Jets, and LRM/20's. Hatchetman ended up with max armor and jump jets. It also has an IS Light Engine and the C3 Master. I fail to see how an U/AC/20 is a downgrade since it has twice the damage output. But yes, to compensate for the extra rate of fire, the Hunchback does come with extra ammo and jump jets. As well as a Flamer and TAG.

Generally, in broken terrain, Clan's primary advantage of reach is all but negated, only leaving their superior damage to heat ratio, which is still significant. Same thing in Urban settings. Too many buildings for me to dodge behind to block LoS, keeping them from using their range advantage to their fullest.

Note that all four mechs in this lance have jump jets? They're designed and built for broken terrain, with lots of potential cover. This reduces Clan's effectiveness at 'hit and run' tactics, while still maintaining a decent movement.

Generally, my opponent would take three Clan medium mechs to my four IS mechs. Then he would take four Clan Medium Mechs against mine. I would still generally win, although I'd end up loosing the Hunchback and generally the Hatchetman before the game is over. The Archers would usually finish them off, having at least one if not more armor breaches thanks to the UAC/20 of the Hunchback.

EleventhHour

2009-10-22, 08:17 PM

Quick question ;

When MegaMek calculates the BV in the selection screen as around 8900, and then when the deployment screen pops up, it's showing that you have about 15,000 BV... what does that mean?

>.>

Philistine

2009-10-22, 09:30 PM

Oh, so it is that your opponent typically charges in blindly to point-blank range! You know, I rather thought it might be; thanks for confirming my theory. I also note with interest that even though the HCT is the the logical first target for an opponent - even if it weren't carrying the C3 Master, as the smallest 'Mech in the group it's also the easiest to put down - your opponent apparently always goes after the HBK first. More confirmation! He also apparently keeps repeating the exact same mistake, so... there's that.

UAC are a downgrade from regular AC because they weigh a little more, cost a lot more, generate twice as much heat, and use twice as much ammunition (requiring more weight and also more internal volume, thus increasing the risk of a Golden BB finding an ammo bin) to do 40% more damage on average - once again note, NOT twice as much - with an added risk of putting themselves out of action every time you try to take advantage of their dubious double-rate-fire "feature." Going from an AC/20 to an Ultra AC/20 increases your average damage per hit from 20 to 28, and as such this "upgrade" is inferior to adding two Medium Lasers instead - the lasers cost less, generate less heat, do more damage, and enhance your overall battlefield endurance and survivability.

We've been around on the fires/smoke thing before, IIRC. You light a hex on fire, it burns and creates a plume of smoke. Great. Your opponent sidesteps a few hexes and hits you from a direction where you don't have cover. They're not great for a mobile force, as you keep having to leave your protective smoke behind - possibly through the fire you just set, especially if you're attacking. They're also not great for a defending force, if you're playing with anything more than "just kill," as you're tearing up the area you're supposed to be protecting. They're also not a lasting solution to anything, as eventually the hex burns down to the point that you can no longer set it on fire, at which point it's No More Smokescreen For You.

And if you're turtling behind terrain, great! You're pinned down, leaving your (much faster) opponent free to maneuver - even to disengage and go after another objective if he wants. Hope you're sitting on top of a supply dump there, because your logistics tail is about to get severed... :smallamused: Of course, that's assuming you're playing something more than "just kill" missions.

Erloas

2009-10-22, 10:09 PM

Well for the BV just download the newest Solaris Skunk Werks program and look at a lot of the clan 'Mechs to get an idea of their BV in 2.0. It did go up quite a bit because Clan 'Mechs were fairly undervalued in the old system.
As a quick example (since I had done this earlier) the max Clan 'Mech's BV is 3767, min is 604 and the average of all is 2016. For IS the max is 3008, min 332 and average is 1379. So your average IS 'Mech is 32% cheaper then the average Clan 'Mech. Also the BV multiplier for a 3/4 pilot is 1.38 so that makes them jump up fast.

A Timber Wolf for instance goes from 2224 for the B to 2900 for the Pryde variant. So you are looking at 3069 for the cheapest Timber Wolf with a clan pilot. A quick check at sarna.net shows BV1 of the B at 2012 and 2624 for the Pryde, so about 10% increases, though the Prime was almost 17% higher. The catapult had a lot changed by about 10% but some varients only changed by 2%, it depends a lot on the config, I think TCs went up a fair amount in the new BV system.
For variety, the Clan has 63 'Mechs under 1250, the IS has 458. The IS includes a lot of mediums, a few heavies and even a few assaults for that price. Given the assaults really suck.

I had added up the base 'Mechs that most closely fit what he said and it came out to about 4700. A C3 network increases the BV of all 'Mechs in the network by a flat 5%, which puts that unmodified 4700 at 4935 with C3. TAG increases the cost of the 'Mech by the BV equal to each ton of semi-guided on other 'Mechs, in this case 8 tons (4 per catapult) at 23 BV each, or 184 BV total. Semi-guided missiles themselves don't cost anything extra (except that they are useless without TAG and the TAG unit pays the extra cost).

The Catapult-C4 is 1358 BV base, it already has jump jets and LRM-20s, and the C3 slave can be swapped out for the two small lasers it has.

I don't see a hunchback with a UAC20, there is one with an LBX-20 though. If you take the Hunchback-5H and drop the rocket launchers and MLs you can get an UAC20 and a C3 master and have an extra half ton of armor. It already has 2 tons of ammo. It clocks in at 1112 BV. The C3 master has TAG built in.
The Hatchetman doesn't have a really close varient, but modifying the 6D (5/8/5 varient) to having a C3 slave and TAG and a few more medium lasers and heatsinks to use them (5 total and 28 heat dissipation) comes in at 1318 BV. That is with max armor, which most of the hatchetman 'Mechs have so he may have been thinking of something else.

Total for that group is 5146, +184 for TAG/semi-guided and 257 (267 if TAG is added before instead of after, not quite clear) for C3 for a total of 5587. So 10% over 5k, but not nearly enough for a big change on the Clan side of things.

As for the mapsheet, I was thinking on the board I use, which is 4'x6' or 26 hexes by 36 hexes, so 1.7 times wider and twice as long as a normal mapsheet, so about like 4 total mapsheets, which is a fairly large playing area. At 26 hexes wide if you run the two spotters near the center about 5-6 hexes apart from each other (and still close enough to support each other and not be all on their own) that means if the Clan 'Mech were able to run directly down one side they farthest they would be is about 10 hexes. While the Clan medium/heavies do have a speed advantage it isn't that huge, they aren't going to be running past the 'Mechs in a single turn or two. Its also not like the spotters are ever alone, either one still has both of the catapults behind it for support.

Most likely any change in direction will likely bring you close to one 'Mech as you put distance between you and another. Even with a lot of terrain to use for cover it also means your opponents have cover as well, its not like you are going to be the only one that will be taking advantage of terrain. The times you win initiative they can move into cover as well to minimize your chance of doing anything too.

Objectives are going to work against the Clan because they are going to have to close range with the spotters to get there. If the objective is to take the bridge you simply have no choice but to close range to the bridge, you don't have any other option if you want to win. If your job is to hold the bridge and you back up every turn to keep out of their range then its not going to take many turns before they cross the bridge and you've failed. If you are defending any object at all, be it a building, comm station, bridge, etc. if you run away all the time to keep range there is no way to win. Generally speaking objectives also come with time limits, if you have to take out that radar to hid an incoming drop pod then you have to do it relatively quickly, if you take 30 turns trying to snipe down your opponents its going to be way too late for it to do any good.

As for the damage, I don't think he was expecting to hit with both AC20 shots every turns. It sounded more like he was expecting a total of 40 damage a round from all of the 'Mechs combined, which seems fairly reasonable with 4 LRM20s and a few medium lasers and the AC20. Some are going to miss but some are going to hit as well.

Also, most Clan 'Mechs are going to be in trouble if they alpha-strike. They have a heck of a lot of damage potential but a heck of a lot of heat as well. A lot of the 'Mechs that have the potential of taking out mediums in a single volley will put up 10-15 heat in the process with the small chance of shutting down and the guarentee of a loss of speed and aiming. Not to mention that unless they are within fairly short range a good portion of that damage is not going to hit anyway.

Which also isn't saying he is guarenteed victory. It is going to be a lot more of a fight then the simple *they would be totally destroyed by just about everything* you tried to paint it as at first. Also I'm not sure how this lance is one-dimensional when it includes both long range and short range 'Mechs. Running around at max range and sniping is one dimension. The catapults don't have to have the TAG and C3 to work, it just makes them more effective when they do. They aren't going to be hiding out of LOS when doing it, but if you are trying to snipe they can come out and fire back and if you have close range brawlers they can take cover and fire indirectly when the spotters get in range.

Erloas

2009-10-23, 08:36 AM

And now for something completely different.

Apparently they are working on (and it seems maybe releasing) plastic 'Mechs.

Right now they only have 2 models (it seems) so I don't know if this is just a test run or what. I haven't had a chance yet to read the article, and check the forums, so we'll see.

http://www.camospecs.com/Article.asp?FictionID=27

Rockphed

2009-10-23, 10:59 PM

My brother (who goes by Ka-ther Fangfoot on GITP) and I just ran a 4500 BV battle in megamek. In 11 rounds, my force of 5 hover tanks, 1 hover scout, and a Charger(the one with a PPC) destroyed or wholly disabled 4 different versions of Rifleman. On had a pair of AC10s, one had a couple PPCs and other lasers, one had a bunch of Large Lasers, and I can't rememeber what the 4th had.

We started most of the way across the map from each other, so the first round was spent moving closer. On the second round, the firing began. Heh. Heh. Heh.

For the second round, because all my tanks had moved 10 or 11 hexes that round, they were almost impossible to hit. I think he hit a tank with a medium laser. On the other hand, I managed to hit his most effective mech's engine and gyro through the armor.

Then I proceeded to run circles around his mechs, often hitting them from both directions simultaneously. My charger fired his PPC just about every turn, though a couple of times I wish I had let it cool because I was shooting from within minimum range.

On about turn 3, he destroyed my hover scout with a lone hit from a laser. A couple turns later he stunned and immobilized one of my tanks. A turn after that, he destroyed it.

I proceeded to get engine and Gyro crits on almost all of his mechs. His mechs proceeded to heat up very quickly, such that on multiple occasions his mechs shutdown.

I'm starting to agree with him that hover tanks are broken. Then again, to decide that, we would need multiple trials, and I doubt that 5 hover tanks and a charger is a very canon force. Then again, 4 different rifleman variants probably would not align with the canon.

Erloas

2009-10-24, 09:09 AM

Eh, hover tanks are fast but thats about all they have going for them. Which is about the same as light 'Mechs. Hovers have the problem of sideslipping if they move quickly and turn, which could mean a lot of pilot rolls durning movement, and sideslipping into terrain is a bad thing.

The rifleman isn't very armored for its size (but neither is the charger) in most configurations, and its not all that fast either. They are more designed for support fire to work with other 'Mechs, and like every other support fire 'Mech they aren't designed for up close and personal combat. Fast moving units are the designed counter to support fire 'Mechs.

The thing about vehicles is that they have a very unforgiving damage table, and any damage has a good chance of causing problems. Even things like SRMs at only 2 damage a piece will have a very good chance of slowing down or immobilizing a vehicle, and hovers especially. Its just a matter of getting those hits in on something with a 4+ movement modifier. Get some pulse weapons, LBX ACs with cluster ammo, or targetting computers to get those bonuses to fire (TC can't be combined with cluster ammo or pulse weapons, but it helps all your other direct fire (non-missile) weapons) and you will see those hovers start to drop rather quickly.
Also for anti-vehicle, lots of small weapons work better then a few large ones, a few ER-ML will take them down a lot better then heavier more heat generating LL and PPCs, because mostly what you need is hits, not shear damage.

Also those aformentioned plastic Loki and Thor are up for sale on the Battleshop side. $17.95 for two plastic models, one pre-assembled the other still on the sprue.
Thor (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2336) and Loki (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2338)

EleventhHour

2009-10-24, 05:18 PM

Soo... anyone up for a game on MegaMek tonight? :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-26, 08:58 PM

Best use for hovertanks is to slap Arrow IV missile launcher system on it, and have it sitting a couple of boards off, lobbing in artillery strikes, hopefully never getting into combat directly.

In the event they do, however, 8/11 speed, plus the ability to zip over water, if applicable, means it can be tough to chase them down if they bug out.

Rockphed

2009-10-26, 09:25 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-10-27, 12:01 AM

I think I had Hovertanks with 11/17 speed. The scout had something like 12/18 speed.

The Arrow IV platform I had had a speed of 8/12. Then again, it *WAS* carrying artillery weapons... one expects that to slow them down a bit.

Seonor

2009-10-27, 09:16 AM

There are some news on the mektek (http://www.mektek.net/) site. 8:38:15 until something big happens.

Edit: Forget that. The countdown uses the local time from your PC, so no one knows which timezone is the right one. (Most guesses are GMT -4) If you look at the pagetitle and the quelltext, it is probably AT:1.

Hawriel

2009-10-28, 08:58 PM

Limerickcot

2009-10-29, 08:56 AM

Anybody here ever play MechCommander? I love that game, but it never seems to get mentioned much.

*grumbles about Thors and their damn HACs*

I love Mechcommander myself - still play it from time to time.

I have most of the supplements etc (nowt dark age) but I always seem to prefer pre-ultra tech i.e. up to 3050. Still got a load of minis floating around but finding a game to play on the tabletop is nigh on impossible.

Erloas

2009-10-30, 10:25 AM

I saw at my gaming store the other day that mechwarior came out with a new airospace book. Its huge. Any one use it yet?

Also If you looking for computer games I found a mod awile ago. It is a mod of Crysis.

http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/

Are you talking about the Strategic Operations book? It has expanded aerospace rules from what is in Total Warfare as well as all the bigger ships, because I don't think TW covered anything beyond the fighters.

As for SO, I have it ordered but it currently sitting in Colorado right now, probably on the interstate waiting for the roads to open back up. It was supposed to be delivered today, but it looks like I'll probably have to wait until Monday to get it.

Artanis

2009-10-31, 11:09 AM

Speaking of MechCommander, I'm working on a MC2 LP, but with a twist: in order to guarantee that I actually finish the game, I've already done so. So it's just a matter of writing the posts and going back for the occasional supplementary screenshot to support the ones I got the first time around.

Does anybody have any advice? Also, suggestions on what to name the thread would be appreciated (my working title is, "Bossing around Mad Cats for Fun and Profit: Let's Play MechCommander 2!")

Edit 1: wording

Edit 2: Also, does anybody know a utility or something that will let me take MC1 screenshots without alt-tabbing out to Paint ever time? I was originally planning to do a MC1 LP, but it being such a PitA to do screenshots shot that down real quick.

Timberwolf

2009-11-01, 11:18 AM

Couldn't resist posting this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK3pbyP-57A&feature=related)

Please be aware, it contains language as it's one of Hitler's tantrums.

Artanis

2009-11-01, 11:58 AM

Bwehehehehehe

Erloas

2009-11-01, 07:13 PM

Edit 2: Also, does anybody know a utility or something that will let me take MC1 screenshots without alt-tabbing out to Paint ever time? I was originally planning to do a MC1 LP, but it being such a PitA to do screenshots shot that down real quick.

Have you tried Fraps? It should take screenshots from just about everything.

Artanis

2009-11-01, 08:57 PM

I didn't realize that Fraps had a screenshot utility. I probably should have, but that happens to me a lot :smallredface:

*heads to the Fraps d/l site*

Erloas

2009-11-05, 12:49 PM

Limerickcot

2009-11-05, 04:24 PM

What are people's thoughts on the painting and modeling aspects of Battletech. Visiting the CBT forums there are a few discussions on the miniature aspect of it. It really surprises me how many people there seem to play with simple paper markers or bottlecaps or anything instead of picking up a few models. Some also act like it is an elitist attitude to want to use and play against other people with some real terrain and with painted models instead of a plain mapsheet and a few trivial markers to denote units.

Possibly either the price puts them off, or they think that they can't do as good a job as they see on the web so they don't bother.

I love the minitures and, when I couldn't buy any, I constructed some from bits and bats. Far more fun than counters

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-11-06, 02:16 AM

What are people's thoughts on the painting and modeling aspects of Battletech. Visiting the CBT forums there are a few discussions on the miniature aspect of it. It really surprises me how many people there seem to play with simple paper markers or bottlecaps or anything instead of picking up a few models. Some also act like it is an elitist attitude to want to use and play against other people with some real terrain and with painted models instead of a plain mapsheet and a few trivial markers to denote units.

I can't afford many mini's, but I do use styrofoam for terrain elevation and delevation. Makes it easier to tell LoS. I've got hex-square 'woods' for light and heavy, which has enough space in the middle for the markers we use for our minis

Limerickcot

2009-11-06, 02:24 AM

Meet Thumper - a plastic mech I chopped about from another gaming system (one that was a lot cheaper to buy - I made six of these). Pic quality is lousy though and my painting skills are basic. Its still far more fun to play with these than with counters.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u299/Limerickcot/btech/DSCI0005-1.gif

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u299/Limerickcot/btech/DSCI0009-1.gif

Erloas

2009-11-13, 10:01 AM

Well there is a bit of information on the MechWarrior 4 free release, basically wait a couple weeks more.

The Mechwarrior4 FREE release is still currently to be announced. MekTek had hoped to gain permission for the release while visiting Smith and Tinker, Inc. in Seattle this week. However, we have learned that Microsoft has endured several administrative changes which currently impede the release. The good news, however, is that a meeting to finalize the release is scheduled near the American Thanks Giving Holiday. Smith and Tinker said that it will only take 1-2 more days before permission is granted. From MekTek, we are happy to report that the release is ready and awaiting permission to push that big shiny green release button at MekTek headquarters.

AslanCross

2009-11-23, 05:56 PM

Couldn't resist posting this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK3pbyP-57A&feature=related)

Please be aware, it contains language as it's one of Hitler's tantrums.

It was a bad idea to view that at work. I kept snickering and the guy beside me was wondering why. :smallbiggrin:

AslanCross

2009-11-29, 06:58 PM

Sorry for the double post. I've been playing MW4:Mercs again and I'm trying to complete the Solaris grand championship.

I've been sweeping the tourney thus far, but this time it seems the opposition is just too strong. I've tried fielding the following:

Atlas: ECM, LAMS, max armor, ERPPC x2, C-Gauss Rifle x1, C-ER MedLas x2, ER SmLas x2
Daishi: LAMS, max armor, C-ER LgLas x2, C-ER MedPLas x2, C-Gauss Rifle x1
MadCat Mk II: No jump jets, upgraded speed, C-Gauss Rifle x2, C-LRM 10 x2, an assortment of med pulse and ER Large lasers
MadCat: SSRM 6 x2, C-ER LgLas x2, C-ERMedPLasx2, C-Ultra AC5 x1.

None of them worked. The MadCat survives the most since I'm able to run away from the crossfire while shooting, but once enough enemies go down, EVERYONE gangs up on me. Even while using circle strafe tactics, it's hard to avoid two Daishis and a Fafnir spamming me with Ultra AC fire. (Especially Alice Newkirk. I hate her.)

The Assault mechs are just too slow and die very quickly.

I even tried using a Puma. It survived the longest since everyone was ignoring me. Until I fought Alice Newkirk. :P Fen Cheng's Vulture is also extremely annoying with its dual Arrow IVs. :smallannoyed: You'd think it'd be hard to AIM A FREAKING CRUISE MISSILE.

How the heck do I finish this? Sometimes the opening salvo is enough to drop my Center Torso to critical levels such that when I annoy them enough they just light me up and I explode.

As far as I can remember, the combatants are as follows:
-Samantha Coleman (Sunder)
-Sunder mounting a Heavy Gauss (forgot the pilot's name)
-Ricardo Vecci (Daishi)
-Alice Newkirk (Daishi)
-Srin Odessa (Daishi)
-Atlas (forgot the pilot's name)
-Fen Cheng (Vulture w/ Arrow IV Thunderbolt x2)
-nameless MadCat Mk II
-nameless Awesome
-Haight (Mauler)
-Nako Toyuma (Fafnir)
-(forgot pilot's name) Templar

There are a couple of others, but I think they die before I even get close to them. I have the easiest time with Nako Toyuma, since although his Fafnir hits really hard with its dual Heavy Gauss, I can run circles around him without problems. It's Alice Newkirk who rocks my socks. For some reason I can never outmaneuver her. Vecci usually dies in crossfire very early on.

EDIT: Nvm, got to finish it. I used the MadCat Mk II and sprinted across the field to take out the Alice Newkirk first. Srin Odessa also kept ignoring me until the guy in the Atlas lit her up. Fen Cheng was beaten up in a fight against one of the two Sunders, so I finished him off. The last guy left was Vecci, and a lucky dual Gauss center torso shot killed him instantly.

Timberwolf

2009-11-30, 12:46 PM

Sounds like you nailed it.

I rig for brawling with this - Daishi with CLBX 20's, Mk 2 with the same, or, my personal favourite, the Hauptmann with 3 Clbx 20, s6 SRM and however many lasers I can fit..

I also kill Fen Cheng first because he does a disproportionate amount of damage.

AslanCross

2009-11-30, 04:58 PM

Ouch. CLBX 20 x3 sounds extremely painful.

AslanCross

2009-12-10, 04:37 AM

Sorry for the double post.

I tried a new run of the MW4: Mercs campaign at Veteran difficulty and have gotten to the decidedly difficult Overlord dropship mission. It's easy enough for my lances to clear out the defenders, but they seem to slow down by the time we get to the ridge. If I push ahead at full speed, I get mauled, but if I wait for my lance to catch up, Peter Davion gets killed.

If I clear the navs and get up to the end, the Overlord Dropship kills me. My lancemates don't attack it when I order them to. They kind of just go close to it and sit around.

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here. @_@

My mech is a Daishi with the following loadout:
-1 ER PPC
-1 C-Gauss
-1 C-Ultra AC 5
-1 C-LRM 10
-2 CMPlas
-2 CERMlas

I've got Falcon in her Madcat Mk II, Shredder in a Longbow, and Hannibal in an Atlas.

The secondary lance has Mustang as lance commander in a Fafnir (optimized for ranged sniping with 2 ER PPCs and 2 C-Gauss), Beowulf in a Hauptmann, Blaze in another Atlas, and Bullseye in a Sunder.

ShneekeyTheLost

2009-12-10, 05:19 AM

Honestly? If I were building a mech with Clan Tech?

Daisho or Atlas, take your pick of 100 ton chassis

2x CERPPC
1x CGauss
4x CSRM/6 Streak

3x Jump Jets

Stay at range? Fine. 2x Clan ERPPC's and a Clan Gauss Rifle eat you.

Want to close? Fine. I won't bother using the gauss, I'll just let my four Clan SRM/6 Streaks do the sandblasting. Because sooner or later? I'll find that weak armor point I made when I hit you with one of the big guns while you were closing. Then? Well... 9+ to crit doesn't sound like good dice... until you consider how many of them I could be doing to you. Specially if I hit you on a side or punch/kick hit location table.

Alternately, if you have the heat management, 2x Clan LBX/20's + 6x Clan Medium Pulse Lasers. Sure, you have to close. But once you do, it is safe to say that they will be rapidly turned into hamburger.

Timberwolf

2009-12-10, 07:47 AM

(This ain't CBT Shneekey, this... is... THARKAD !!!!)

This sounds like a job for the Wolfie Hauptmann o'Doom.

This is not the same as my arena mech.

First find the control settings and map override auto shutdown to a nice convenient button on your joystick where you can get to it.

Then get a Hauptmann and put 3 x ERPPC's and a Heavy Gauss Rifle on it.

Looking at your config there, I see a great one for killing vehicles. Unfortuanately this time you're mainly up against assault mechs. A CUAC 5 and a LRM 10 isn't really as thwackative as the 2 ERPPC's / Clan Gauss you can get with the weight and the lasers can be pulled to give you the spare heat capacity and weight for more heat sinks to actually fire the PPC's..

Next, make sure you are using the orders feature. F4 brings up a list of orders for your lance, F9 for your secondry lance. You want F3 I think ( been a while) "Close up[ and form on me and F1, "Attack my target".

Shyftir

2009-12-10, 09:21 PM

So favorite load out of any mech of any class in MW4:Mercs?

Mine is an Uziel variant a friend and I affectionately call, "Papa Rock"

We drop a Clan ERPPC in each arm, then load out with a big engine jump jets, full armor, and LOTS of heat sinks.
It's an incredibly fun mech to pilot, since its very fast (over 100kph) and has solid ups. Other positives: low to the ground, durable (for its class), packs a heavy punch (for its class)

Negatives: Heat curve is really bad, you have to make your shots count, and spend most of your time moving through cover effectively. Lose your arms, lose the game.

AslanCross

2009-12-11, 06:26 AM

For some reason, the Daishi can only mount one ER PPC in MW4: Mercs. It has a 2-slot missile rack hardpoint, two 3-slot ballistic hardpoints on its left and right torso, and one 4-slot omni hardpoint in the center torso. In each arm, it has a 2-slot energy weapon hardpoint and a 2-slot omni hardpoint.

The only place the 3-slot ER PPC can fit in is the center torso omni. ):

On top of that, the Daishi can only mount a LAMS. It can't mount any of the other electronic systems.

Timberwolf

2009-12-11, 11:45 AM

I have the Mektek MW4 mercs expansion. They upped the size of the arm energy mounts to PPC size.

Anyway, stock mercs, 2 CGR and as many ERLL as you're comfortable with (4 is nice) works well on a Daishi. I still prefer the Hauptmann though. Then you really can load up.

SparkMandriller

2009-12-11, 12:32 PM

Well, I just completed the Overlord assault mission on veteran in instant action. First lance was four Executioners with 4 ERPPCs each, second lance was four Dire Wolves with 3 gauss, 4 ERMLs each. All pilots set to veteran.
The key seems to be ordering your dudes to attack each individual target. When I left them engaging at will they kinda lost focus and just stood around. Constant prodding keeps them actually fighting.
Lost one of my Dire Wolves, had one Executioner in the yellow, and both Peter's Fafnir and my Executioner were nearly destroyed, but I still won. You could try that setup if you're still having trouble. Provided you can find enough PPCs. 16 is kind of a lot I guess.

AslanCross

2009-12-11, 06:35 PM

I do make extensive use of the lance commands. Ordering them to attack individual targets was effective for the first part. Nav Alpha is easy to clear despite the presence of several assault mechs and those extremely annoying LRM Carriers, but once I get to Nav Beta the terrain kind of breaks the lance down and they take forever to form up on me.

Anyway, I've finally finished it myself. I decided to scrap the Gauss due to its long recycle time and resorted to 1x ERPPC, 2X ERLgLas, 1x CSSRM6, and 2x CLRM15. Took me several tries, but with this config I was able to continue dealing damage to the Overlord safely.

Three of my lance's mechs were destroyed--one Madcat Mk II, one Longbow, and one Atlas. Blaze was KIA, unfortunately. I liked her accent too.

Timberwolf> Thanks for the heads up. I've been meaning to upgrade with MekTek's patches, but the downloads have been excruciatingly slow.

TheThan

2009-12-11, 06:41 PM

Sorry for the double post. I've been playing MW4:Mercs again and I'm trying to complete the Solaris grand championship.

I did the MW4:Mercs Solaris grand champs in a Flee. It was incredibly hard, but I was able pull it out. think I actually had a kill too. The thing to do is to simply survive until the end of the match and pew pew the last guy with your light lasers. (don't bother with machine guns, use the extra weight for more speed, heat sinks and armor).

AslanCross

2009-12-11, 06:53 PM

I did the MW4:Mercs Solaris grand champs in a Flee. It was incredibly hard, but I was able pull it out. think I actually had a kill too. The thing to do is to simply survive until the end of the match and pew pew the last guy with your light lasers. (don't bother with machine guns, use the extra weight for more speed, heat sinks and armor).

I'll try that out next time. I'm kinda stuck as it is right now, as Veteran Solaris seems to be much harder. Notably because all the Heavy fights have that jerk Fen Cheng in them, and a Mad Dog with two Arrow IV Thunderbolts ONLY is incredibly damaging.

Timberwolf

2009-12-11, 07:08 PM

Heavy matches, load up the mech I call... TIMMEH ! (Timmy Thor) This mech is otherwise known as "Ye Olde Faithful", a timeless, classic config.

Timmeh uses 2 CLBX20's with a ton of extra ammo, a s6SRM and 2 er meds, ecm and jump jets I think. Then you go and kill Fen Cheng first before you take any hits and before he can thin the opposition to the extent that he can start on you. The jump jets are soooo useful for making sure he doesn't get missile lock, as is the ECM. It'll also eviscerate Black Knights with that massive torso of theirs. Also use the 360 degree torso twist to the full.

The spheroid equivalent to the Thor, the Thanatos, is also a worthy mech for this.

The Mektek patch is freakin huge, it takes 2-3 hours on a decent connection, just set it running and go out or something.

I've won the Solaris Grand Championship in a Shadowcat, against Srin Odessa and Alice Newkirk, who team up, the cheats. Playing online and shunning assault mechs really does teach you to drive a lighter chassis.

AslanCross

2009-12-12, 07:46 AM

Heavy matches, load up the mech I call... TIMMEH ! (Timmy Thor) This mech is otherwise known as "Ye Olde Faithful", a timeless, classic config.

Timmeh uses 2 CLBX20's with a ton of extra ammo, a s6SRM and 2 er meds, ecm and jump jets I think. Then you go and kill Fen Cheng first before you take any hits and before he can thin the opposition to the extent that he can start on you. The jump jets are soooo useful for making sure he doesn't get missile lock, as is the ECM. It'll also eviscerate Black Knights with that massive torso of theirs. Also use the 360 degree torso twist to the full.

The spheroid equivalent to the Thor, the Thanatos, is also a worthy mech for this.

Mmm, that sounds like a tasty build. I love the way the CLBX20 shreds armor.

Timberwolf

2009-12-12, 11:35 AM

nepphi

2009-12-12, 11:51 AM

Erloas

2009-12-12, 12:06 PM

Interesting bit a friend and I noticed about 5. While the visuals have definitely been updated (the mech detailing is gorgeous), doesn't the terrain in the trailer look a bit familiar? Take a look at the buildings, and tell me with a straight face they're using a different terrain model than 4.

Well considering that the trailer was more of a tech demo to try and get some production company interested and get some money for development, they probably didn't spend too much time redsigning everything from the ground up. Building aren't going to sell the game, the 'Mechs are, and that and the feel is what they were/should have been focusing on.

nepphi

2009-12-12, 12:15 PM

Well, I'm not criticising, I just was surprised it was so blatantly the same. The shapes, arrangements, everything of the buildings is identical (except the skinning) to MW4. It's not bad, just distracting.

AslanCross

2009-12-14, 01:20 AM

Truth be known, I don't actually like the Thor that much. I respect it but if the choice is a Thor or a Madcat, generally I go with the kitty. Solaris though is a different matter and there the ability to tote those 2 CLBX 20's is more than worth the fact that you can't tote 6 ERLL.

However, as the owner of the clan mech pack, in any area other than the campaign, I can drive the Cauldron Born which > all.

The Cauldron Born seems pretty awesome. I wanted to get the Clan Mech Pak after I got trashed by one in Solaris.

I've tried your Thor build, btw. It totally rocks. Shreds all competition in short order.

For some reason, though, the equivalent Thanatos build isn't as good despite having 5 tons extra weight (mostly because it can't mount dual LBX-20s, so I have to make do with LBX-20 + LBX-10).

Winterwind

2009-12-14, 03:36 AM

I kind of understand why, but it really does feel sad that there doesn't seem to be any love for MW3 going on. I miss that sweetheart of a game. I liked the free-floating reticule, pulse lasers that meant something, and the customization system was closer to the tabletop game. Going from that to 4 just felt needlessly restrictive and unpleasant overall. I played every version of 4 of course, and they had their fun elements, but to me it's MW3 that will always be the best. Personally, I was kinda disappointed with MW3 actually. Don't get me wrong, it was an awesome game... but I enjoyed MW2 far more. Sure, the graphics were worse and many of the weapons were modeled a lot more sensibly in MW3 (like PPCs, which shot slowly floating blue orbs for some reason in MW2), but I thought MW2 had much more atmosphere, it managed to give one that feeling of wonder of being on totally different and alien worlds (the sunrise above the red mesa of Twycross was so beautiful), and the battles felt more action-laden to me, too (which had a lot to do with the far less flat terrain - in MW3, I pretty much just first shot enemies at the distance and then circled them once we got into close range, in MW2, I'd do things like fire my jump jets to jump right over a hill and out of enemy fire if too many enemy 'Mechs could concentrate upon me at once, and such, not to mention having to account for constantly rising and falling made targetting the enemies (who did the same thing, too) a fair bit more challenging).
Also, one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard in a game.

Timberwolf

2009-12-14, 11:29 AM

The Cauldron Born seems pretty awesome. I wanted to get the Clan Mech Pak after I got trashed by one in Solaris.

I've tried your Thor build, btw. It totally rocks. Shreds all competition in short order.

For some reason, though, the equivalent Thanatos build isn't as good despite having 5 tons extra weight (mostly because it can't mount dual LBX-20s, so I have to make do with LBX-20 + LBX-10).

Thank you *bows*. The Thanny takes a bit of tweaking because of the slot arrangement, as you've found out, you can only get 1 LBX 20 in, but that's ok, a LBX 10 and an extra Streak 4 SRM and you've about matched the 2 LBX 20's throw weight, especially since the LBX 10 has 36 shots and doesn't need extra ammo.

The Cauldy is awesome. On that little beastie, despite the fact that it weighs in at 5 tons less than the Thor, you can mount a CLBX 10, 2 CLBX 20's, an ER Med and carry nearly full reactive armour. It won't turn that well but who cares ? with that much firepower, even a Daishi needs to watch it.

AslanCross

2009-12-22, 06:55 PM

So I've patched to PR1 and have downloaded MekTek 3.02a. I ran into a lot of problems patching it, but even when I finally authorized it as an admin it still failed. I'm running Windows 7.

EDIT: Finally got it to work. Unfortunately, it wouldn't recognize the disc at all (using Daemon). I'd buy a secondhand of this if I could find it or if they finally release the free anniversary copy. Oh well.

Timberwolf

2009-12-23, 08:40 AM

Yeah, get the disc. Amazon should have one going at not too bad a price

AslanCross

2009-12-23, 06:23 PM

Unfortunately, I live in a country Amazon doesn't ship to, or if they did, the human sharks and crocs up in Customs would stack surprise fees on top of the game. And the "used" price of USD 45 is like...the price of a brand new game here. Maybe I'll check used game stores in Singapore next time I go. Oh well.

Arcanoi

2009-12-23, 10:55 PM

Any news on the status of the Free release of MW4? I heard they were expecting to release it like the 14th-15th of November, but...

AslanCross

2009-12-24, 12:20 AM

Yeah, they said "a few days after Thanksgiving." :smallsigh:

Artanis

2009-12-24, 12:27 AM

Did they specify which year? :smalltongue:

Timberwolf

2009-12-24, 09:14 AM

Mektek are genius's at this, namely never, ever giving any sort of progress report. I swear, the last mech expansion they did, I got really fed up with hearing "soon" with a little 3 next to it (for MechPack 3) and never actually being given any helpful information.

Anyway, what I can tell you is that the MP releases definitely need a disc to work. Perhaps ebay will have one.

revolver kobold

2009-12-28, 10:55 AM

Comet

2009-12-28, 11:31 AM

The beta for Mechwarrior: Living Legends (http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/) has just been posted, for those who have Crisis and cannot wait for the new game to be released.

Don't know if you folks knew about this project or not (I only found out about it yesterday), but here it is. Think of it as a belated Christmas gift. :smallsmile:

Downloading as fast as I can. It looks so very awesome and I have been waiting for so long I nearly forgot about it.

Thanks for the news! *high five and exit thread*

AslanCross

2010-01-08, 02:41 AM

Regarding Mechwarrior 4: Mercs. I'm just wondering why the Country Life and Overlord missions are inordinately difficult.

Country Life starts out innocuously enough. Lots of choppers and ECM mechs that bolt when one of them dies. Then the subsequent wave is just massive. Even though they've only got three Atlases and 2 Awesomes, (the rest are heavies and mediums), it's just a total meat grinder. Past Regular difficulty I never get to finish it with all my lancemates intact, even if all of us are packing Assaults. What makes this so difficult? With the kind of mechs I'm bringing against the enemy mechs, it technically shouldn't be.

It's a bit easier to figure out why Overlord is difficult. Lots of enemies, terrain advantage, annoying little LRM Carriers, and the nasty nasty Overlord itself. How do you beat this? I've tried a dozen different configs, and the last one was THIS close to taking down the Overlord when it opened up a broadside on me. How do you finish this mission? X_X It's harder than the Checkmate mission.

SparkMandriller

2010-01-08, 03:01 AM

Didn't you say you'd completed Overlord like a month ago? Kinda confused here dude.

AslanCross

2010-01-08, 11:16 AM

New run. This time I can't seem to complete it no matter what I do.

Timberwolf

2010-01-08, 07:09 PM

My apologies on how long this is getting...

What config are you using ?

Wernke and the Overlord are hard. However, use your lance commands to your benefit. Even an Atlas falls over inside of 20 seconds if you have 4 90 - 100 tonners concentrating fire on it. And you have 8 of them... Also, make sure your friends stay with you. Pressing F4 and F9 open up a whole new world of options. Also, don't be afraid to stand behind everyone else. They're brainless AI scripts. You're not.

Additionally, when, as will happen with Wernke (there's just too many to kill before they get in close and start pounding on you where even they can't miss) you are Circle of Deathing someone, and you get round to his back, you have 3 options. Aim for the back armour, aim for the leg are obvious. Less obvious is aim for the mech's backside. If the leg is heavily damaged, take that out and keep shooting it. However, if you've hit the centre torso up till that point, shoot it in the butt. Seriously, the damage from there is part of the centre torso. My life became easier once I knew this.

Also, there is no substitute for the Hauptmann. Buy as many of those as you can. Seriously, the Daishi and Gladiator look shiny, the Daishi has the fluff on its side and mouth watering slots. That Glad can jump, has equally amazing slots (I mean, who doesn't love a 4 slot omni mount ?) and can mount better electronics. Both these mechs are Clan and Clan = awesome, right ?

When you look at it, the Hauptmann knocks the socks off the pair of them. Sure you can mount 6 ERLL on the Daisy, but it's slow, can only mount 1 PPC and the centre torso is very easy to hit from a wide angle. Even if you load up on Gauss, the Daishi can carry 3. The Hauptmann laughs at this and raises you a PPC as well. The Glad... it's ok, you won't run into slot problems, but the Hauptmann can handle more weight of guns. You may think that 4 ERPPC's is good, but the heat... That's a specialist online config where the other mechwarriors won't get you in a melee like a bunch of zombies while you cool off the enormous spike of heat because they're all sniping too.

The Hauptmann is ugly as sin and slow but it has the armour, slots and weight capacity to nail any of its competition into an ugly mess. 3 CERPPC and either a HGR or Clan Gauss, depending on how confident you are with heat (The HGR variant is hot hot hot). Atlas, Daishi, Gladiator, they are, IMO, not as good. Sunders, Maulers, Mad Cat Mk 2's... forget it. Hauptmann 4 eva, as they say.

Next thing...

I feel it is my duty to pass this on...

http://www.banzaiinstitute.net/main/index.php

http://www.banzaiinstitute.net/InvisionBoard11/index.php?showforum=40

On the first link, what you need is in the top right corner under "Training Centre". There you will find "Guides". In the guides section, you will find "Mech Guides" and the "Missing Guides". Most of these here were built with online play in mind and feature configs with the Mektek pack's weapons in. However, they are still useful reading for single player as they go into the strengths and weaknesses of each chassis. They also feature some configs to try. Well worth reading as well are the "unboating guide" (for the Pugilist Victor alone) and the "Legging guide" in the "Battlefield Roles" section.

The second link is the Mechlab. It was made at a time when a much older version of the Mektek patch was standard so exercise a bit of judicious discernment, a lot of the mechs aren't in basic Mercs and none of the configs will work with basic MW4 mercs. However, for the mechs that are in, there will be some ideas to try here.

Sorry this got long, always does when I try to explain.

Edit - just did the Wernke mission.

My lance -

Me - Hauptmann
Falcon - MK2
Angel - Atlas
Mags - Daishi

The other 4 were split even between Hauptmanns and Glads

Which mechs did I lose ?

The MK2 and the Daisy.