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Grushvak
2009-10-05, 03:26 PM
Alternate title: 5 ft-wide tunnels: A 12-headed Lernaean Pyrohydra's One Weakness

I played a wizard for the first time in my last session, and I got to experience the pure cheese of Polymorph firsthand. I only used the Umber Hulk so far (a tactic I referred to as Hulking out), but I still saw some of the crazy combinations that were made available thanks to this ridiculously overpowered spell.

When players go utterly crazy with this, how do DMs deal with the issue? I for one advocate creative punishment. Much more interesting than increasing the CR or banning the spell. So, throw ideas gentlemen, and tell us some of your hilarious polymorphing tales.

Here's my first contribution:

Swallow Whole: Sure, as a Remorhaz, your gastric acid made short work of that half-orc barbarian. But it still means there's a medium-sized carcass in your stomach. You'll be in for quite a surprise when you morph back to your regular halfling form.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-05, 03:36 PM
Here's my first contribution:

Swallow Whole: Sure, as a Remorhaz, your gastric acid made short work of that half-orc barbarian. But it still means there's a medium-sized carcass in your stomach. You'll be in for quite a surprise when you morph back to your regular halfling form.

What Constipation? Not hungry for a week?

I'm not following. I am getting hungry though.

Fiery Diamond
2009-10-05, 03:38 PM
What Constipation? Not hungry for a week?

I'm not following. I am getting hungry though.

I don't think you understand. The half-orc ain't gonna shrink along with ya.

tyckspoon
2009-10-05, 03:46 PM
I don't think you understand. The half-orc ain't gonna shrink along with ya.

That's ok, anything that does enough acid/fire/bludeoning damage to actually kill something will also break down the body pretty quickly. The victim's equipment, on the other hand, is usually much more resilient and will probably stick around.. so you still have the problem of having swallowed somebody's armor and weapons.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-05, 03:48 PM
That's ok, anything that does enough acid/fire/bludeoning damage to actually kill something will also break down the body pretty quickly. The victim's equipment, on the other hand, is usually much more resilient and will probably stick around.. so you still have the problem of having swallowed somebody's armor and chainmail.

Exactly, which is why Constipation. :smallbiggrin:

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 03:49 PM
Even if the corpse completely dissolved, there would still be enough organic matter left in the stomach for the halfling's body to explode upon shifting back.

Also, I wonder how the rules would deal with someone wearing a full plate on the inside.

jiriku
2009-10-05, 03:51 PM
My best DM tricks for polymorph:

Every encounter should include one or more of the following: an enemy that is difficult to trip (e.g. ooze, magical flight, incorporeal), an enemy that is size Large or larger, an enemy that attacks principally at range, and an enemy that can fly when it needs to.

Every encounter should include one or more of the following: an environmental feature that limits visibility (darkness, undergrowth, lots of trees), an environmental feature that slows or stops movement without an appropriate skill check (e.g. chasm, bog, high winds, scree-covered slope), an environmental feature that is dangerous (e.g. lava, acid, pits or chasms, deep water if the party includes non-swimmers) and an environmental feature that offers a significant tactical advantage, but only to Medium or smaller creatures (such as the tunnels you mentioned, or elevated platforms, or positions that offer cover).


When your encounters include this level of diversity, no one character typically has all of the necessary abilities to easily defeat all of the enemies and navigate all of the environmental hazards. A polymorph form remains a valuable asset, but it's not an "Easy!" button.

Edit: As an added bonus, this level of diversity in monsters and environments makes each fight memorable and interesting, and creates lots of opportunities for players to employ clever thinking during combat.

woodenbandman
2009-10-05, 03:53 PM
By doing this you are practically banning the spell, just in a sneaky, passive-aggressive way that your players have no knowledge about because you didn't tell them, and then they die.

This is what gave 2.0 DMs a bad name. "Your spell kills him, and he falls toward the single support pillar, make a save Vs. Breath Weapons or be buried by X tons of rock."

Optimystik
2009-10-05, 03:57 PM
By doing this you are practically banning the spell, just in a sneaky, passive-aggressive way that your players have no knowledge about because you didn't tell them, and then they die.

This is what gave 2.0 DMs a bad name. "Your spell kills him, and he falls toward the single support pillar, make a save Vs. Breath Weapons or be buried by X tons of rock."

This. If you don't like the spell either ban it, or give them a list of vetted forms they can choose from and ban the rest.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 03:59 PM
[Complex anti-polymorph strategy]

Those are some really nice ideas.

Another thing I considered bringing up with my DM: I'd like it to be house-ruled that dismissing Polymorph leaves you exhausted for one hour and slowed (as per the spell) for 5 rounds. Polymorph allows you to perform physical feats far beyond the scope of regular player races, but though your form changed, it is still your body doing all the work. I think it just makes sense, and it makes a polymorphed magetank particularly vulnerable to a good dispel magic.

Oslecamo
2009-10-05, 04:02 PM
That's ok, anything that does enough acid/fire/bludeoning damage to actually kill something will also break down the body pretty quickly.

Not necessarly. There are plenty of examples in the world of predators too greedy who try to swallow preys too big, and altough the poor eaten smuck gets quickly crushed into death quickly, the predator goes next as the remains of his food get stuck on his digestive system and make it burst.

There's a famous fossile of a fish dead after swallowing another fish of half his size, and giant snakes have tried to eat animals with big horns with very gruesome results.


Basically, just because your digestive system suceeded in crushing the victim's neck and/or dissolving their soft vital tissues, it doesn't mean that the harder parts of their body will go down as fast.

For example, we can technically digest a fish, but if a single sharp spine goes wrong it can kill you.

Or just throw poisonous enemies at the polymorphed wizard:smalltongue:

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 04:03 PM
By doing this you are practically banning the spell, just in a sneaky, passive-aggressive way that your players have no knowledge about because you didn't tell them, and then they die.

No, not as long as the punishments are logical and easy to predict with some forethought. It teaches the players to think with their head rather than with books and written stats.

Take the aforementioned swallow whole example: any player that doesn't realize eating a medium-sized creature and then reverting back to his original small size is a bad idea definitely deserves what happens next.

5 ft-wide corridors... well, these are found everywhere, in all dungeons. It's not passive-aggressive to throw one in the way of your wizard player: it's just logical. You can't expect to roll through a dungeon with your thumbs up your ass relying on a polymorphed form's high physical stats alone.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-05, 04:05 PM
No, not as long as the punishments are logical and easy to predict with some forethought. It teaches the players to think with their head rather than with books and written stats.

Take the aforementioned swallow whole example: any player that doesn't realize eating a medium-sized creature and then reverting back to his original small size is a bad idea definitely deserves what happens next.

5 ft-wide corridors... well, these are found everywhere, in all dungeons. It's not passive-aggressive to throw one in the way of your wizard player: it's just logical. You can't expect to roll through a dungeon with your thumbs up your ass relying on a polymorphed form's high physical stats alone.

Unless it has a burrow speed.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 04:11 PM
Unless it has a burrow speed.

Can you burrow through solid stone? I never bothered to check.

Fiery Diamond
2009-10-05, 04:12 PM
No, not as long as the punishments are logical and easy to predict with some forethought. It teaches the players to think with their head rather than with books and written stats.

Take the aforementioned swallow whole example: any player that doesn't realize eating a medium-sized creature and then reverting back to his original small size is a bad idea definitely deserves what happens next.

5 ft-wide corridors... well, these are found everywhere, in all dungeons. It's not passive-aggressive to throw one in the way of your wizard player: it's just logical. You can't expect to roll through a dungeon with your thumbs up your ass relying on a polymorphed form's high physical stats alone.

This, I completely agree with.

Tehnar
2009-10-05, 04:21 PM
Use pillars in dungeons, they greatly limit the mobility of large+ creatures.

Cover, like underbrush or sheets of fabric limit AoOs from creatures with reach.

Traps that trigger on someone passing over them are also more lethal for larger creatures, or things like caltrops.

sofawall
2009-10-05, 04:22 PM
Can you burrow through solid stone? I never bothered to check.

Sometimes.



Take the aforementioned swallow whole example: any player that doesn't realize eating a medium-sized creature and then reverting back to his original small size is a bad idea definitely deserves what happens next.


This is silly. It's magic. Who knows how it works? How can we make assumptions about what will happen? Wouldn't the wizard who developed the spell way back when have put some sort of safeguard in against this?

ericgrau
2009-10-05, 04:27 PM
Alternate title: 5 ft-wide tunnels: A 12-headed Lernaean Pyrohydra's One Weakness

I played a wizard for the first time in my last session, and I got to experience the pure cheese of Polymorph firsthand. I only used the Umber Hulk so far (a tactic I referred to as Hulking out), but I still saw some of the crazy combinations that were made available thanks to this ridiculously overpowered spell.

When players go utterly crazy with this, how do DMs deal with the issue? I for one advocate creative punishment. Much more interesting than increasing the CR or banning the spell. So, throw ideas gentlemen, and tell us some of your hilarious polymorphing tales.

Here's my first contribution:

Swallow Whole: Sure, as a Remorhaz, your gastric acid made short work of that half-orc barbarian. But it still means there's a medium-sized carcass in your stomach. You'll be in for quite a surprise when you morph back to your regular halfling form.

I blame the umber hulk. Here's your answer:

This. If you don't like the spell either ban it, or give them a list of vetted forms they can choose from and ban the rest.

Ideally HD scales faster than CR, which means any form you can turn into is below your level in power. In some forms in other books it does not, and problems arise. Having a low BAB hurts even more, since that's one of the few stats you keep. Or BAB may sometimes help a little or break even, in the case of polymorphing the fighter. And I agree that secret nerfs without warning the players is just being a jerk.

The biggest problem with polymorph is interrupting the session to figure out the stats. Make sure you do so before the session starts.

Optimystik
2009-10-05, 04:29 PM
No, not as long as the punishments are logical and easy to predict with some forethought. It teaches the players to think with their head rather than with books and written stats.

You're still going to be springing real-world logic on your players in the middle of a fantasy game. If they're willing to put up with it, hey, more power to them.

Unless you plan on warning them beforehand?

Mongoose87
2009-10-05, 04:30 PM
Sometimes.



This is silly. It's magic. Who knows how it works? How can we make assumptions about what will happen? Wouldn't the wizard who developed the spell way back when have put some sort of safeguard in against this?

Furthermore, considering this isn't in the least bit a standard way to work the spell, doing so without any sort of warning to your players is really just being a jerk.

I think, if they had meant for it to work that way, there'd be some mention of it in the spell description.

subject42
2009-10-05, 04:31 PM
As a DM, I've handled polymorph abuse by making sure that polymorphed characters had to account for "instinctive urges". The first time that a character polymorphed into any given form, I made the player roll a will save. If he failed the save, he would act in accordance with some of the physical tendencies of the form. He would have to keep making the will save (with decreasing difficulty) until he knew how to work with the new body. Combined with disallowing any forms that the caster had not personally seen before limited its abuse.

At one point the wizard decided to polymorph into a newly-encountered rust monster in the middle of the fight. He failed his save, got hungry for some metal, and ended up eating half the fighter's gear. After that the fighter made certain that the wizard "practiced" with a form in a controlled environment before he used it in a fight.

jiriku
2009-10-05, 04:33 PM
Those are some really nice ideas.

Another thing I considered bringing up with my DM: I'd like it to be house-ruled that dismissing Polymorph leaves you exhausted for one hour and slowed (as per the spell) for 5 rounds. Polymorph allows you to perform physical feats far beyond the scope of regular player races, but though your form changed, it is still your body doing all the work. I think it just makes sense, and it makes a polymorphed magetank particularly vulnerable to a good dispel magic.

Bwahahaha! If it isn't ridiculously convoluted and involved, it isn't worth doing! Rube Goldberg was an amateur, I tell you! An amateur!

Ahem, ahem. Well, moving on...

Kick-in-the-head penalties at the end of a spell duration aren't generally effective at limiting abuse of a powerful ability. For what you're suggesting, it's likely that the polymorphed character will continue to romp the encounter, and the party will just use its resources to eliminate the slowed and exhausted conditions.

If you feel the spell is too powerful as written, you're the player, so your job is easy: don't abuse the spell.

From the DM's perspective, if you need to apply hardcore breaks to the spell, simply restrict polymorph to a handful of forms or houserule the spell as 5th level instead of 4th. Another easy houserule if you're a careful DM is to require that the caster must have encountered and studied a creature before he can use it as a polymorph form, and remind my players that just because something appears in Monster Manual 5,734 doesn't mean that the monster exists in my campaign world.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-05, 04:33 PM
Wouldn't the person using the spell be entitled to know how it interacts with such events?

Johel
2009-10-05, 04:37 PM
What about :

Dangers of Polymorphing
Messing with anatomy is dangerous.
When a spellcaster wants to polymorph something/someone, he must roll a Knowledge check to see if he knows

the biology of the new form (+5 if the new form is of the same species as the caster or is an inanimate object)
the biology of the target (+5 if the target is of the same species as the caster or is an inanimate object)

The DC is equal to CR+10
Consequences

If the caster fails his roll, he can't reroll before he gets the opportunity to study the creature's anatomy.
The caster can still cast polymorph but with X * 5% chances of polymorphing the target into a Gibbering Mouther (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gibberingMouther.htm), X being the margin of error on the caster's Knowledge check.
If the caster succeeds, he can polymorph safely..
At the end of the spell, the target reverts to his original form but takes Xd4 damage, X being the margin of error on the caster's Knowledge check.
If the caster succeeds, he can polymorph safely.
If the caster get a natural 20, he get a +2 bonus on his next Knowledge check to polymorph into a form of the same type.



Alter Self transforms you into something roughly similar, so deep biology knowledge is less of an issue.

Polymorph, on the other hand, change your type. Aberation have really alien biology and so do magical beasts.

lord_khaine
2009-10-05, 04:38 PM
just give the Wizard player what he wish for?
I cant really see how it can be healthy for someone with a d4 hp and a standart build to get anywhere near melee combat.

So it should not take more than a couple of levels before the wizard assult something polymorphed at his own risk.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-05, 04:38 PM
Wait, couldn't you then just deliberately fail knowledge checks?

Johel
2009-10-05, 04:41 PM
Wait, couldn't you then just deliberately fail knowledge checks?

You can.
But then why don't you just polymorph the target into a Gibbering Mouther immediately ? I mean, if somebody willingly let you mess with his flesh, there's some trust involved, right ?

tyckspoon
2009-10-05, 04:46 PM
Wait, couldn't you then just deliberately fail knowledge checks?

I don't think you can, actually. At least not when the margin of failure is important, since that's tantamount to letting you choose the result of your roll, and the only rule that normally allows that is Take 10/20. You can claim that you know nothing at all about the particular creature, but if you have a relevant Knowledge then you officially *do* know something (or rather, have a chance to) and are obliged to roll it to find out if that's actually true. Which could generate the situation that you can 'fail' the polymorph and turn yourself/your victim into an undesirable form, but still succeed the Knowledge check enough to not do any extra damage when the polymorph ends.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 04:53 PM
You're still going to be springing real-world logic on your players in the middle of a fantasy game. If they're willing to put up with it, hey, more power to them.

Unless you plan on warning them beforehand?

All play sessions I participate in operate under a "use some goddamn common sense" rule. It doesn't have to be written verbatim in the rules to happen.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-05, 04:59 PM
All play sessions I participate in operate under a "use some goddamn common sense" rule. It doesn't have to be written verbatim in the rules to happen.

Common sense and magic are notorious for not intersecting. I never would have imagined that polymorph ran a risk of annihilating your digestive tract. And, on the other hand, my character with at least a +5 in Knowledge (arcana) definitely would have known this, and would not have tried such a thing. Not telling me stuff my character would reasonably know is...

Fiery Diamond
2009-10-05, 05:05 PM
All play sessions I participate in operate under a "use some goddamn common sense" rule. It doesn't have to be written verbatim in the rules to happen.

I figure, so long as the players and DM have agreed on the "use some common sense" rule before hand, this is acceptable. I mean, you'd be being a jerk not to tell players you were operating on this rule. But if they're aware of this rule, there's no need to warn them about specific potential problems with polymorphing.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 05:07 PM
Common sense and magic are notorious for not intersecting. I never would have imagined that polymorph ran a risk of annihilating your digestive tract. And, on the other hand, my character with at least a +5 in Knowledge (arcana) definitely would have known this, and would not have tried such a thing. Not telling me stuff my character would reasonably know is...

As a DM, I tend to give my players warnings, in the form of a "Are you sure that's what you want to do?" This is their cue to ask for a knowledge check. I don't kill off my player characters for fun, just like I wouldn't expect my DM to do the same to me.

If a player really wants to abuse Polymorph regardless of warnings, well that's where the creative punishments come into play.

Johel
2009-10-05, 05:07 PM
Common sense and magic are notorious for not intersecting. I never would have imagined that polymorph ran a risk of annihilating your digestive tract. And, on the other hand, my character with at least a +5 in Knowledge (arcana) definitely would have known this, and would not have tried such a thing. Not telling me stuff my character would reasonably know is...

"-So, you wanted to play an character with 18 in Intelligence ? Hey... Deal with it, now. No, that's not medicine. That's basic common sense : you don't try to stuff your 50 years old wife into the bikini of your 16 years old daughter. It's both wrong and stupid !!"

More seriously, the DM can warn the player if the threath should be obvious for his character's point of view. I said "can", not "should"... :smallamused:

pendell
2009-10-05, 05:07 PM
Alternate title: 5 ft-wide tunnels: A 12-headed Lernaean Pyrohydra's One Weakness

Swallow Whole: Sure, as a Remorhaz, your gastric acid made short work of that half-orc barbarian. But it still means there's a medium-sized carcass in your stomach. You'll be in for quite a surprise when you morph back to your regular halfling form.

IMO, the problem is this is an obvious solution.

DM: "Okay, you've swallowed the half orc."

PC: "I wait for ten turns to make sure he's good and digested, then induce vomiting."
DM: "... what now?"

PC: "Yep! My character has a chance to choke on anything it swallowed, so I'm going to spin round and round until everything ... and I do mean EVERYTHING ... in my stomach comes up."

[cue rest of session wasted while the PC goes through numerous hilarious feats trying to empty his stomach].

And so on.

I'm not an experienced GM, but IME trying to be clever only results in the players getting clever right back at you. If you don't want them abusing polymorph, nerf the spell.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-05, 05:08 PM
As a DM, I tend to give my players warnings, in the form of a "Are you sure that's what you want to do?"

For some reason I thought you didn't. Odd. W/E; it's all good now.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 05:10 PM
pendell: That's exactly the kind of thing I would want to happen. And I trust all the good folks I played with to come up with a clever solution to any hilarious complication I throw their way.

Yes, I would allow the Remorhaz'd player a knowledge check to know he's in big trouble if he shifts back. With Polymorph's duration, that leaves plenty enough time to figure out a way to induce vomiting.

Johel
2009-10-05, 05:16 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm

You can become just about anything you are familiar with

Agreed, it's not Polymorph but the sentence should be part of both spell, with slight alteration :
"-You can only become something you are familiar with"

KellKheraptis
2009-10-05, 05:20 PM
You're still going to be springing real-world logic on your players in the middle of a fantasy game. If they're willing to put up with it, hey, more power to them.

Unless you plan on warning them beforehand?

I say if the DM springs real-world logic, I get <insert-explodey-nuclear physics element here> with True Creation :smallsmile:

Among other things...

Johel
2009-10-05, 05:37 PM
I say if the DM springs real-world logic, I get <insert-explodey-nuclear physics element here> with True Creation :smallsmile:

Among other things...

And then you die from irradiation/explosion.
TPK
You just gave me a better idea than "Rocks fall", here.
Let's gave them an item...:smallamused:

Worira
2009-10-05, 05:52 PM
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

You go ahead and tell yourself that "goddamn common sense" says that swallowing things then unmorphing makes your digestive tract asplode.

KellKheraptis
2009-10-05, 05:53 PM
And then you die from irradiation/explosion.
TPK
You just gave me a better idea than "Rocks fall", here.
Let's gave them an item...:smallamused:

And I laugh at your irradiation, because I have spells :smallsmile:

Sucks to be the rest of the world, though...

Tyndmyr
2009-10-05, 06:21 PM
Yeah...it's not intuitive in any way that polymorphing back to your regular self will kill you via what you ate. If that were common, essentially any wizard that cast polymorph would know about it though. Thus, they should be told beforehand. Incidentally, this allows you to literally explode polymorph targets unless they haven't eaten in some time. I mean, polymorphing someone into a toad was already powerful enough, it doesn't need death tacked on.

5ft tunnels, on the other hand, are perfectly reasonable. There is nothing wrong with having a varying environment.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 06:22 PM
You go ahead and tell yourself that "goddamn common sense" says that swallowing things then unmorphing makes your digestive tract asplode.


any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way

The stomach is common to both forms. Considering the carcass as an item, the carcass would still be held the same way upon reversion. ie: in the player's stomach. Given, it's open to interpretation, but the DM could make a good case of it.

I have to wonder though, how did a thread I originally intended to be filled with hilarious consequences of shapeshifting without thinking turn into such a heated debate?

Really, the starting premise is this: you have a player who's really abusing polymorph. Mess with him the same way he messes with your campaign.

But then again, I'm used to playing with friends, and nothing but friends. We get a kick out of such things, and it always ends in laughs rather than tears. I tend to forgot that many people play D&D with groups of strangers in settings where interactions between players and DM are more openly hostile than friendly.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-05, 06:29 PM
That's merely there to say "You don't drop all your stuff". Eating a person is not the same as picking up an item. Also, I find the assumption that their digestive system is equivalent to a humanoid's pretty dubious. They may have four stomachs...how do you know?

You also should not be passive-aggressively punishing players for "messing with your campaign". If something just doesn't work out, or you don't want to see that, just....say that. It's easier.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 06:41 PM
You also should not be passive-aggressively punishing players for "messing with your campaign". If something just doesn't work out, or you don't want to see that, just....say that. It's easier.

You're assuming I'd do that without any warning. Without repeated warnings actually. Which I never would. This thread is completely filled with such assumptions.

Once again, I'm a player, though I DM'd before, who just now realized how overpowered Polymorph is, and tried to come up with completely hypothetical hilarious and creative counters to polymorph abuse. I never killed off my player's characters just for fun or because they pissed me off, and I never intend to do so. My DM shares my views on this, though he will reprimand excessive cheese and abuse. I expect him to and I like it that way. Otherwise, everyone would be playing Pun-pun.

I brought up the swallow whole scenario because I thought such a thing would be funny, morbid though it may be. And this, I remind you, is the whole point of this thread: creative and funny ways to mess with polymorph abusers in purely hypothetical situations.

I'm really getting pissed right now at how forumgoers make the worst possible assumption about a poster because, apparently, everyone who plays D&D is an ******* out to ruin others' experience.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-05, 06:47 PM
Hey, don't make generalizations. We aren't thinking this for no reason. Maybe you picked a wrong word somewhere that gave this implication, or somebody else did make a post where acting like a jerk was advised.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 06:50 PM
Sorry, I guess in my frustration over the complete mess this thread turned into, I countered assumption with generalization. Still the point remains that this is absolutely not what I intended this thread to be.

Maybe my wording was misleading in a post. I'd reread to verify but seriously, I'm tired of this whole mess.

Can't we just make hilarious "Polymorph-gone-wrong" scenarios instead of arguing over what is and isn't justified? I came here for a good laugh and all I got was a headache.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-05, 07:13 PM
Here's how I handle the whole Alter Self chain:
You can only assume forms you know.
To identify a new form you need to make the appropriate Knowledge check, as required in the rules.
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. There are six individual Knowledge skills related to different types of creatures. And as Knowledge is a trained-only skill, you cannot make any checks above DC 10 (i.e., identify any creatures above 0 HD) without ranks in the appropriate skill.
You want more powerful forms? You've got to find one of them and succeed on the required check.

Teron
2009-10-05, 08:38 PM
Making the Knowledge check for a given creature means you know about it; you don't need to see one to somehow "activate" the knowledge. There's no reason you can't roll to see if, say, you know what a hydra is whenever the information would be relevant -- either your character knows or he doesn't. If anything, seeing one in person is a chance to learn first hand what the education or past experience represented by the Knowledge skill didn't teach you if you failed the check.

Also, HD-based Knowledge checks are utterly ridiculous (it gets harder to recognise a dragon as it grows older!), but I suppose that's beside the point.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-05, 09:25 PM
Ideally HD scales faster than CR, which means any form you can turn into is below your level in power.The issue here is that even though the forms you can access aren't necessarily as powerful as an appropriate-CR creature, you can always pick the best form for whatever you're facing at the moment.

Need high Str and the ability to use a weapon? Troll. Need lots of attacks with a good chance to hit? Hydra. Need an at-will AoE hold person effect? Cloaker. Need a really sneaky form that can fly you past traps and around sentries? Hummingbird.

Really, it's about picking the right form for the job at hand. Like using a lever instead of a mallet when the situation calls for it.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-05, 09:28 PM
Keep in mind that if you do trigger a trap as a hummingbird, life will be short, and filled with smoking feathers.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 09:40 PM
Need a really sneaky form that can fly you past traps and around sentries? Hummingbird.

Wouldn't a Will-O-Wisp be more appropriate? Or is the natural invisibility one of those things you can't get through Polymorph?

sofawall
2009-10-05, 09:53 PM
Sorry, I guess in my frustration over the complete mess this thread turned into, I countered assumption with generalization. Still the point remains that this is absolutely not what I intended this thread to be.

Maybe my wording was misleading in a post. I'd reread to verify but seriously, I'm tired of this whole mess.

Can't we just make hilarious "Polymorph-gone-wrong" scenarios instead of arguing over what is and isn't justified? I came here for a good laugh and all I got was a headache.

The thing was, you proposed what was assumed to be a rules change, so we analyzed the rules change, and found it silly.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-05, 09:57 PM
Wouldn't a Will-O-Wisp be more appropriate? Or is the natural invisibility one of those things you can't get through Polymorph?

It depends on if you interpret it as either a Ex Trait or Ex Attack.
Really the name is a misnomer. It isn't natural invisibility. It is Reactive Invisibility (since it activates when scared).

So it sounds like Ex trait so you don't get it.

If you can control when you go invisible then it is a Esxtraodrinary ability/attack so you do get it.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-05, 10:19 PM
"-You can only become something you are familiar with"
Which does nothing to balance the spell as much as limit the DM ... and have the DM get into wonderful argument with the players.

"What do you mean you know giants? No you don't ... why not ... uh, well because that would make polymorph unbalanced ..."

The premise of this thread is BS the spell can't be balanced by coming up with BS side effects which generally have to be about as likely as "rocks fall you die" (the chosen example is nice and all, but it's just one of many forms ... most often people just pick forms which hit hard). Nor can it be balanced by familiarity. The only way to balance it is to houserule it.

Metagaming will prevent the spell from being broken as well (ie. just not using it very often or very well). But that's not balancing.

Akal Saris
2009-10-05, 10:37 PM
It depends on if you interpret it as either a Ex Trait or Ex Attack.
Really the name is a misnomer. It isn't natural invisibility. It is Reactive Invisibility (since it activates when scared).

So it sounds like Ex trait so you don't get it.

If you can control when you go invisible then it is a Esxtraodrinary ability/attack so you do get it.

Or if it's intrinsic to the creature's being, which is the other argument I've seen for getting it as a Will O'Wisp if I recall.

I had my own dose of 'Are you sure you want to do that?' when my druid wildshaped into a triceratops to help the fighter attack a fire elemental.

Me: "I charge the fire elemental, dealing even more damage because of the triceratops' special charge!
DM: Um, are you sure that sticking your head deep inside a creature made of fire is really what you want to do?

Personally, I'd generally allow the swallow whole attack of a remorhaz, by the way - it's a fun tactic that players almost never get to use, and it's pretty easy for opponents to pop out of the stomach again anyhow (what is it, 25 damage?).

olentu
2009-10-05, 11:41 PM
Or if it's intrinsic to the creature's being, which is the other argument I've seen for getting it as a Will O'Wisp if I recall.

I had my own dose of 'Are you sure you want to do that?' when my druid wildshaped into a triceratops to help the fighter attack a fire elemental.

Me: "I charge the fire elemental, dealing even more damage because of the triceratops' special charge!
DM: Um, are you sure that sticking your head deep inside a creature made of fire is really what you want to do?

Personally, I'd generally allow the swallow whole attack of a remorhaz, by the way - it's a fun tactic that players almost never get to use, and it's pretty easy for opponents to pop out of the stomach again anyhow (what is it, 25 damage?).

Its only something like 2d8 fire + possible lighting on fire for an elder elemental as I recall. That is not really that bad depending on the level.

Akal Saris
2009-10-06, 12:07 AM
True, but it was mostly a funny moment because none of the players had considered that there might be any downsides to my plan. I ended up doing something else, IIRC.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-06, 12:15 AM
If the DM told me I could only polymorph into creatures I was familiar with, I would spend my time in town researching at a library, paying if necessary, and casting scrying spells. And when out on the adventure, I would take the time to dissect the creatures we encountered. I will know those critters in every sense but biblical, I will be so familiar with them.
And inducing vomiting on the part of the wizard who just swallowed the baddie whole makes complete sense from a common sense, in-universe, point of view. After all, the wizard knows what his spells do, he spent his whole life studying the mechanics of spells, of course he knows what it does.

olentu
2009-10-06, 12:16 AM
True, but it was mostly a funny moment because none of the players had considered that there might be any downsides to my plan. I ended up doing something else, IIRC.

That is too bad. Being on fire can lead to all sorts of fun.

Kelpstrand
2009-10-06, 12:34 AM
It depends on if you interpret it as either a Ex Trait or Ex Attack.
Really the name is a misnomer. It isn't natural invisibility. It is Reactive Invisibility (since it activates when scared).

So it sounds like Ex trait so you don't get it.

If you can control when you go invisible then it is a Esxtraodrinary ability/attack so you do get it.

It's not about traits or intrinsic or whatever.

It's really easy:

Ex Special Attack? Yes you get it.

Not an Ex Special Attack? You don't get it.

You can find this out in the monster entry.

Specifically, Will o Wisp:

"Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, natural invisibility"

Which of those do you get?

"but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form"

So no you don't get invis. There is no possible argument that you do.

Grushvak
2009-10-06, 12:36 AM
Its only something like 2d8 fire + possible lighting on fire for an elder elemental as I recall. That is not really that bad depending on the level.

That's looking purely at the stats and dice. Sure, the druid will survive, but the question remains: "Are you sure you want to be doing that?"

No. The druid is fairly certain he doesn't want to be doing that.

The game, to me at least, becomes more fun when you play your character more like a living being than like a stat sheet. Of course, on paper, you could put your face in the fire, but you really, really shouldn't want to.

Zaydos
2009-10-06, 12:38 AM
I actually like the idea of requiring familiarity with a creature. It could be gained by fighting it, or like Ravens_Cry said dissecting them. I like the idea the wizard would have to research the creatures he transforming into and it does limit it somewhat. It would require the DM and players to work together, like that would ever work in such an asocial game as D&D. Then again last time I had a PC use polymorph that was their one trick and the character was so bad even with it I wasn't about to put any limits on it. In my game before that I had PCs who would have preferred the research idea it makes polymorph involve role-playing (and the warlock dissected everything anyway to study it). With my current group I think I've had two people who would have disliked that idea one was an optimizer that enjoyed the idea of optimizing diplomatic rolls (and while he could RP diplomacy he tried not to but as a DM he always expects it) and a hack and slash-er which wouldn't have been able to break polymorph anyway.

Making the familiarity requirement will not stop a hardcore optimizer, but it will make it harder. In some games this is a good thing, in others not and I've DM'd ones where it would have been bad and ones where it would be good.

Grushvak
2009-10-06, 12:44 AM
Making the familiarity requirement will not stop a hardcore optimizer, but it will make it harder. In some games this is a good thing, in others not and I've DM'd ones where it would have been bad and ones where it would be good.

My DM told me, when I picked polymorph, to choose 10 uncommon creatures I could be familiar with. I ended up only choosing 6. We both cringed when we realized we could apply the Lernaean and pyro/cryo templates to a hydra without affecting its hit dice, so we decided to ban it.

Basically, we're using common sense and making sure the optimization doesn't reach a point where it breaks the whole campaign.

Kelpstrand
2009-10-06, 12:48 AM
That's looking purely at the stats and dice. Sure, the druid will survive, but the question remains: "Are you sure you want to be doing that?"

No. The druid is fairly certain he doesn't want to be doing that.

The game, to me at least, becomes more fun when you play your character more like a living being than like a stat sheet. Of course, on paper, you could put your face in the fire, but you really, really shouldn't want to.

He also doesn't want to die while the Fire elemental beats him to death because he's too afraid to attack it.

The Fighter also doesn't want to light his hands on fire. I guess no fighter ever can ever even fight a Fire Elemental.

That 2d8 fire damage being 2d8 fire damage is telling you how much you don't want to be hit by it, and the answer is that you are totally willing to take the hit, just like I am totally willing to fight back against someone even if I know I'm going to get hurt.


We both cringed when we realized we could apply the Lernaean and pyro/cryo templates to a hydra without affecting its hit dice, so we decided to ban it.

Maybe you should have read more clearly?

"You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. "

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-06, 12:50 AM
It's not about traits or intrinsic or whatever.

It's really easy:

Ex Special Attack? Yes you get it.

Not an Ex Special Attack? You don't get it.

You can find this out in the monster entry.

Specifically, Will o Wisp:

"Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, natural invisibility"

Which of those do you get?

"but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form"

So no you don't get invis. There is no possible argument that you do.

+1. The spell's pretty specific on this. Other spells from the polymorph subschool operate differently, but Polymorph is quite specific on that matter.

Zaydos
2009-10-06, 12:54 AM
My DM told me, when I picked polymorph, to choose 10 uncommon creatures I could be familiar with. I ended up only choosing 6. We both cringed when we realized we could apply the Lernaean and pyro/cryo templates to a hydra without affecting its hit dice, so we decided to ban it.

Basically, we're using common sense and making sure the optimization doesn't reach a point where it breaks the whole campaign.

You also could have just ruled that they were treated as templates and therefore couldn't be used with polymorph. That would fix the pyro/cyro hydra aspect (I always played with this assumption). Besides you don't gain the special qualities or supernatural special attacks meaning that all the abilities they grant are negated except maybe subtypes.

Edit: Ninja'd

Johel
2009-10-06, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by Johel
"-You can only become something you are familiar with"
Which does nothing to balance the spell as much as limit the DM ... and have the DM get into wonderful argument with the players.

"What do you mean you know giants? No you don't ... why not ... uh, well because that would make polymorph unbalanced ..."

The premise of this thread is BS the spell can't be balanced by coming up with BS side effects which generally have to be about as likely as "rocks fall you die" (the chosen example is nice and all, but it's just one of many forms ... most often people just pick forms which hit hard). Nor can it be balanced by familiarity. The only way to balance it is to houserule it.

Metagaming will prevent the spell from being broken as well (ie. just not using it very often or very well). But that's not balancing.

???? :smallconfused:
Did you actually read the OP and the rest of the thread ?
Sure, it's about ways to do deal with polymorph but there's no restriction of any sort. Also, what does your message bring into the debate ? I'm not even sure of what your opinion is or what information you're trying to share.

About the thread :
The premise of the thread is "tell your tales of how to handle polymorph", nothing more. No restriction, "BS" (didn't understand what you meant) or anything else. That's in the OP. Since the thread was 2 pages only when you posted, you could have at least read it whole before babbling.
I don't understand what was the purpose of your message beside nickpick about the subject of the thread, the notions of "houserule", "balance" and "familiarity" and the trolling of a sentence which, taken out of context as you did, was as useful as a dirty underwear.
About your first remark :
Learn the difference between "to know" and "to be familiar with".
In this context, to know Giants means the wizard has already seen one. That's fine... but what does he know about them, really ? Did he studied their anatomy ? If yes, then it should be reflected by skill points. If he knows enough about giants, then he'll be familiar with the creature and will be able to polymorph safely.
This basically means a wizard won't be able to become an Ogre simply because he hits 9th level and has a fancy spell. He will have to get the appropriate knowledge. While it doesn't balance the spell itself, it restricts its potency, which is what people usually complain about. It's still powerful enough to be desirable as a spell but it's not the "I win" it is by RAW.
Also, how does it restrict the DM, since it's the player who cast the spell in your example ?

Short version :
Learn to read, Read whole, Read again, Search the meaning and then speak.
No go fetch me my socks and newspaper !! :smallmad:

jiriku
2009-10-06, 11:44 AM
Another way to manage a heavy polymorph is to use the classic fantasy trope of dueling shapeshifters: the players are opposed by another caster who relies heavily on polymorph, and a duel ensues in which the villain constantly changes shape into whatever form would have the greatest advantage against his opponent's current form. This would be an entertaining and enjoyable fight (provided everyone has prepared stat blocks ahead of time so it doesn't turn into a math attack twice per round).

Kelpstrand
2009-10-06, 11:55 AM
???? :smallconfused:
Did you actually read the OP and the rest of the thread ?
Sure, it's about ways to do deal with polymorph but there's no restriction of any sort. Also, what does your message bring into the debate ? I'm not even sure of what your opinion is or what information you're trying to share.

About the thread :
The premise of the thread is "tell your tales of how to handle polymorph", nothing more. No restriction, "BS" (didn't understand what you meant) or anything else. That's in the OP. Since the thread was 2 pages only when you posted, you could have at least read it whole before babbling.
I don't understand what was the purpose of your message beside nickpick about the subject of the thread, the notions of "houserule", "balance" and "familiarity" and the trolling of a sentence which, taken out of context as you did, was as useful as a dirty underwear.
About your first remark :
Learn the difference between "to know" and "to be familiar with".
In this context, to know Giants means the wizard has already seen one. That's fine... but what does he know about them, really ? Did he studied their anatomy ? If yes, then it should be reflected by skill points. If he knows enough about giants, then he'll be familiar with the creature and will be able to polymorph safely.
This basically means a wizard won't be able to become an Ogre simply because he hits 9th level and has a fancy spell. He will have to get the appropriate knowledge. While it doesn't balance the spell itself, it restricts its potency, which is what people usually complain about. It's still powerful enough to be desirable as a spell but it's not the "I win" it is by RAW.
Also, how does it restrict the DM, since it's the player who cast the spell in your example ?

Short version :
Learn to read, Read whole, Read again, Search the meaning and then speak.
No go fetch me my socks and newspaper !! :smallmad:

That's a really long series of insults, but you know what.

It is totally within his rights and expected and common behavior to say that certain ways of handling polymorph are bad for the game and the DM, and not for players.

He absolutely read the OP. He was commenting on some of the outlined ways.

If someone advocated violent murder as a way to deal with polymorph, a comment arguing that violent murder is not a good way to deal with polymorph would not be out of line.

While the mentioned methods are not as bad as violent murder, a discussion of whether or not they are bad is in fact in line and part of the thread.

Boci
2009-10-06, 11:55 AM
I am so glad I do not use the core classes in my current game.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-06, 01:03 PM
This basically means a wizard won't be able to become an Ogre simply because he hits 9th level and has a fancy spell. He will have to get the appropriate knowledge.
Or simply have it already from background.

Also, how does it restrict the DM, since it's the player who cast the spell in your example?
If it exists and is a valid polymorph target you can turn into it ... that is the reality of polymorph balance as written. If familiarity is the only restriction your only option is to not give them anything too good to get familiar with ... ie. restrict the creatures living in your world.

Grushvak
2009-10-07, 03:06 PM
Maybe you should have read more clearly?

"You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. "

Eh. Guess I should have. As I said, I'm pretty new to this whole polymorph craze.