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Johel
2009-10-05, 05:28 PM
Using the rules of the SRD, what would be the cost and price of :

a use-activated or continuous item, Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), CL 17, no specific requirement ?
I figured it would begin with :
2.000 x 17 x 9 x 1,5
But then, what about the material component ?

a command word item, Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), CL 17, 1/day, no specific requirement ?
I figured it would begin with :
1.800 x 17 x 9 / 5
But then, what about the material component and XP ?


I'm aware that it's more a guideline rather than rules. This thread isn't to discuss about how broken or cool the system is.
It's more a thought exercise than anything, so if other people have questions about custom magic item creation, feel free to ask here.
If you want to answer, please write the detail of your calculation in a way that can be applied to other items, so that the eventual discussion can be made on a clearly informed basis.


Thanks all :smallwink:

tyckspoon
2009-10-05, 05:33 PM
XP costs 5 gp/xp, and the standard guideline requires you to pay for the XP cost/material component cost once per charge. An unlimited/continuous item is treated as if it had 100 charges for this purpose, and a daily-use one has 50. So once-daily Wish would have an extra value of (5x5000x50) 1,250,000 GP to cover the XP cost, and continuous Shapechange would cost an additional 150,000 for 100 jade circlets. Alternately, as it uses a focus and not a standard component, you can rule that only one circlet need be provided paid for and the item works as long as the user has the appropriate focus. Charging for the extra focuses will yield a price that's much closer to fair value for continuous Shapechange, IMO.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-05, 05:38 PM
Shapechange doesn't have a material component ... focuses are necessary during item creation, but can be reused afterward.

Kyrthain
2009-10-05, 06:23 PM
Semi off topic, but once you can afford an item of at will wish, you pretty much win at DnD. Infinite money, +5 to all ability scores of everyone you like, and so much more.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-05, 09:18 PM
Simplest answer IMO is to not make material components part of the item. Pony up the onyx whenever you want to animate dead, and pay XP whenever the Wish item is used. If you were playing it straight (IIRC), you'd pay 100 times whatever the component is - so 500,000 XP for the Wish item.
Shapechange would probably incorporate the focus into the item itself.

Johel
2009-10-06, 10:31 AM
XP costs 5 gp/xp, and the standard guideline requires you to pay for the XP cost/material component cost once per charge. An unlimited/continuous item is treated as if it had 100 charges for this purpose, and a daily-use one has 50. So once-daily Wish would have an extra value of (5x5000x50) 1,250,000 GP to cover the XP cost, and continuous Shapechange would cost an additional 150,000 for 100 jade circlets. Alternately, as it uses a focus and not a standard component, you can rule that only one circlet need be provided paid for and the item works as long as the user has the appropriate focus. Charging for the extra focuses will yield a price that's much closer to fair value for continuous Shapechange, IMO.

Ok, thank you.
Just to make things clear, which one is correct :

Wish 1/day, Command word
1.800 GP x 17 x 9 / 5 = 55.080 GP
5 GP x 50 x 5.000 = 1.250.000 GP
1.250.000 GP + 55.080 GP = 1.305.080 GP = Market Price
1.250.000 GP / 2 = 625.000 GP = GP Creation cost
1.305.080 GP / 25 = 52.200 XP
52.200 XP + (50 x 5.000 XP) = 302.200 XP = XP Creation cost

OR

Wish 1/day, Command word
1.800 GP x 17 x 9 / 5 = 55.080 GP
5 GP x 50 x 5.000 = 1.250.000 GP
1.250.000 GP + 55.080 GP = 1.305.080 GP = Market Price
1.250.000 GP / 2 = 625.000 GP = GP Creation cost
1.305.080 GP / 25 = 52.200 XP
52.200 XP = XP Creation cost

((please no "It's wrong !! The price's above the epic limit !!", thanks. The aim is to understand clearly how to create a ))

ericgrau
2009-10-06, 10:49 AM
Wish 1/day command word:
Base Price: 17 x 9 x 1800 gp = 275,400 gp, 50 x 5000 = 250,000 xp
Divide by 5 for 1/day: 55,080 gp, 50,000 xp
Divide gp by 2 and 25 for cost to craft in gp & xp: 27,540 gp, 50,000+55,080/25=52,203 xp to make
For market price, each xp costs 5gp: 55,080 gp + 5*50,000 = 305,080 gp

So the cost to craft is 27,540 gp + 52,203 xp. The market price is 305,080 gp.

EDIT: And I'll agree that such an item shouldn't allow uses of wish with a cost beyond 5,000 xp. And these guidelines are just that. The DM shouldn't allow players to create infinite wealth with it, or else he should just ban the item altogether.

tyckspoon
2009-10-06, 11:10 AM
Wish 1/day command word:
Base Price: 17 x 9 x 1800 gp = 275,400 gp, 50 x 5000 = 250,000 xp
Divide by 5 for 1/day: 55,080 gp, 50,000 xp
Divide gp by 2 and 25 for cost to craft in gp & xp: 27,540 gp, 50,000+55,080/25=52,203 xp to make
For market price, each xp costs 5gp: 55,080 gp + 5*50,000 = 305,080 gp

So the cost to craft is 27,540 gp + 52,203 xp. The market price is 305,080 gp.

EDIT: And I'll agree that such an item shouldn't allow uses of wish with a cost beyond 5,000 xp. And these guidelines are just that. The DM shouldn't allow players to create infinite wealth with it, or else he should just ban the item altogether.

Based on how the Ring of Three Wishes is put together, this is also wrong. Its cost to create is roughly 11k gp and 15k xp, with a market price of 97,950. That indicates the XP component cost is calculated separately from the base cost to create and factored into the market price accordingly. So 1/day Wish should turn out to be (55080/2) = 27540 GP and (55080/25) + (5000 x 50) = 252203 XP to make. The extra XP cost gets tagged directly into the market price, yielding the million+ GP figure to buy one, but not to make one (for making one, your problem is that it takes almost a level and a half of XP, and since you can't de-level yourself by crafting you can't actually do that until you're almost to level 26 anyway.)

Alternately there's the pricing scheme of the Luck Blade, which follows no identifiable logic.

root9125
2009-10-06, 11:19 AM
Alternatively, there's fiat.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-06, 11:21 AM
Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino?

ericgrau
2009-10-06, 11:45 AM
Based on how the Ring of Three Wishes is put together, this is also wrong. Its cost to create is roughly 11k gp and 15k xp, with a market price of 97,950. That indicates the XP component cost is calculated separately from the base cost to create and factored into the market price accordingly. So 1/day Wish should turn out to be (55080/2) = 27540 GP and (55080/25) + (5000 x 50) = 252203 XP to make. The extra XP cost gets tagged directly into the market price, yielding the million+ GP figure to buy one, but not to make one (for making one, your problem is that it takes almost a level and a half of XP, and since you can't de-level yourself by crafting you can't actually do that until you're almost to level 26 anyway.)

Alternately there's the pricing scheme of the Luck Blade, which follows no identifiable logic.
...
The ring of three wishes is priced with a completely different guideline. I followed the guideline for a use per day item.

17x9x50x3=22,950 gp
5,000 x 3 = 15,000 xp
cost to make: 11,475 gp, 15,918 xp (918 = 22950/25)
market price: 22,950 + 15,000 x 5 = 97,950 gp
Pretty straightforward. 3 charges means you pay the xp cost 3 times... which tells you absolutely nothing about use per day items.

It's ambiguous whether you divide the item cost by 5 and then add 50 times the material cost, or add 50 times the material cost and then divide by 5. IMO dividing the total by 5 makes much more sense. Less uses means you pay for everything involved in each use less times. Otherwise no one would bother with a 1/day item that has an expensive material component.

tyckspoon
2009-10-06, 12:14 PM
...
The ring of three wishes is priced with a completely different guideline. I followed the guideline for a use per day item.

17x9x50x3=22,950 gp
5,000 x 3 = 15,000 xp
cost to make: 11,475 gp, 15,918 xp (918 = 22950/25)
market price: 22,950 + 15,000 x 5 = 97,950 gp
Pretty straightforward. 3 charges means you pay the xp cost 3 times... which tells you absolutely nothing about use per day items.

It's ambiguous whether you divide the item cost by 5 and then add 50 times the material cost, or add 50 times the material cost and then divide by 5. IMO dividing the total by 5 makes much more sense. Less uses means you pay for everything involved in each use less times. Otherwise no one would bother with a 1/day item that has an expensive material component.

It's.. not ambiguous at all, not with the Ring as an example. Uses/day are priced as if it was a charged item with 50 charges. The ring is not using a different pricing guideline here; it's just built as if it was a charged item with 3 charges instead, and it clearly shows us they intend for that extra cost to be in addition to the base price to create, not factored into it. Hell, take another look at the chart- Charged items are under Base Price, uses per day are under Base Price Adjustment. XP and component costs are in a third separate block, labeled Extra Costs. As in, not part of base price, and not qualifying to be discounted for use/day.

Johel
2009-10-06, 12:19 PM
Based on how the Ring of Three Wishes is put together, this is also wrong. Its cost to create is roughly 11k gp and 15k xp, with a market price of 97,950. That indicates the XP component cost is calculated separately from the base cost to create and factored into the market price accordingly. So 1/day Wish should turn out to be (55080/2) = 27540 GP and (55080/25) + (5000 x 50) = 252203 XP to make. The extra XP cost gets tagged directly into the market price, yielding the million+ GP figure to buy one, but not to make one (for making one, your problem is that it takes almost a level and a half of XP, and since you can't de-level yourself by crafting you can't actually do that until you're almost to level 26 anyway.)

Alternately there's the pricing scheme of the Luck Blade, which follows no identifiable logic.

!!! :smalleek:
Ok, my bad, I switched a line for the GP creation cost.

Wish 1/day, Command word
1.800 GP x 17 x 9 / 5 = 55.080 GP
5 GP x 50 x 5.000 = 1.250.000 GP
1.250.000 GP + 55.080 GP = 1.305.080 GP = Market Price
55.080 GP / 2 = 27.540 GP = GP Creation cost
55.080 GP / 25 = 2.203 XP
2.203 XP + (50 x 5.000 XP) = 252.203 XP = XP Creation cost

This takes care of the "XP cost" issue and how to handle it.
Somebody feels to correct the "Material component cost" issue ?


Animate Undead, 1/day, 14 HD per use, Command word
1.800 GP x CL 7 x SL 4 / 5 = 10.080 GP
14 HD x 25 GP x 50 = 17.500 GP = Material component cost
10.080 GP + 17.500 GP = 27.580 GP = Market Price
27.580 / 2 = 13.790 GP = GP Total Creation cost
27.580 GP / 25 = 1.103 XP
2.203 XP = XP Creation cost

OR


Animate Undead, 1/day, 14 HD per use, Command word
1.800 GP x CL 7 x SL 4 / 5 = 10.080 GP
14 HD x 25 GP x 50 = 17.500 GP = Material component cost
10.080 GP + 17.500 GP = 27.580 GP = Market Price
10.080 / 2 = 5.040 GP
5.040 GP + 17.500 GP = 22.540 GP + GP Creation cost
27.580 GP / 25 = 1.103 XP
2.203 XP = XP Creation cost

OR


Animate Undead, 1/day, 14 HD per use, Command word
1.800 GP x CL 7 x SL 4 / 5 = 10.080 GP
14 HD x 25 GP x 50 = 17.500 GP = Material component cost
10.080 GP + 17.500 GP = 27.580 GP = Market Price
27.580 / 2 = 13.790 GP = GP Total Creation cost
10.080 GP / 25 = 403 XP
403 XP = XP Creation cost

OR


Animate Undead, 1/day, 14 HD per use, Command word
1.800 GP x CL 7 x SL 4 / 5 = 10.080 GP
14 HD x 25 GP x 50 = 17.500 GP = Material component cost
10.080 GP + 17.500 GP = 27.580 GP = Market Price
10.080 / 2 = 5.040 GP
5.040 GP + 17.500 GP = 22.540 GP = GP Creation cost
10.080 GP / 25 = 403 XP
403 XP = XP Creation cost

Eloel
2009-10-06, 12:26 PM
Based on how the Ring of Three Wishes is put together, this is also wrong. Its cost to create is roughly 11k gp and 15k xp, with a market price of 97,950. That indicates the XP component cost is calculated separately from the base cost to create and factored into the market price accordingly. So 1/day Wish should turn out to be (55080/2) = 27540 GP and (55080/25) + (5000 x 50) = 252203 XP to make. The extra XP cost gets tagged directly into the market price, yielding the million+ GP figure to buy one, but not to make one (for making one, your problem is that it takes almost a level and a half of XP, and since you can't de-level yourself by crafting you can't actually do that until you're almost to level 26 anyway.)

Alternately there's the pricing scheme of the Luck Blade, which follows no identifiable logic.

That's actually level 253, not 26. You need 253k XP to level from Level 253 to 254.

tyckspoon
2009-10-06, 12:30 PM
That's actually level 253, not 26. You need 253k XP to level from Level 253 to 254.

:smalleek: Whup. Missed a decimal place. Yeah, you ain't making this thing.

Eloel
2009-10-06, 12:32 PM
Yeah, by level 253, you are already the overdeity of the universe, and are creating another universe.

Johel
2009-10-06, 12:46 PM
Yeah, by level 253, you are already the overdeity of the universe, and are creating another universe.

Don't worry, I'm not planning to do it.
Just a thought exercice to be able to replicate the formula for other items.

Also, for the fluff of the "Wish-a-day" thing, I was thinking of a NG wizard who, near his dead, would use his whole vital energy to create an artifact that could be used for the greater good of the kingdom. Of course, it would then go horribly wrong :smallamused: