Dragon PC- Why the level adjustment

[Rainbownaga]

Take the white dragon; Even just going with racial hit dice, you would end up with a cr 10 monster by cr 18.

Do you think a white dragon needs a LA on top of its list of racial HD?

I've been thinking about this, and i realise there could be some concerns with the use of equipment; would limmiting the dragon to a neck slot only and no armor or manufactured weapons make it work for a single class dragon (ruling it to advance in size quicker because of enhanced experience/nutrition).\

The target power level would be tier 2-3 so I don't mind if it's a little op.

[ericgrau]

Yes it's because of all the equipment you get as a PC and because dragons get new and interesting ways to overcome dungeons and other monsters that ordinary races don't. If you're in a powergaming heavy group, however, that's equivalent to some LA right there and - with DM permission - you could reduce the dragon's LA by a similar amount.

[Kelpstrand]

A CR 10 Dragon at ECL 18 is weak even using regular player wealth rules.

I'd recommend using a Dragon class made for PCs. Belial's is pretty good, or you can look for one that's specifically a Dragon. But ECL 18 characters should be CR 17 monsters. And LA is just because the deveolpers don't want you playing cool races.

That said, Dragons are usually a bit better than their CR. So based on the Dragon in question, A level 18 character should be CR 14-16 Dragon.

[Riffington]

Take the white dragon; Even just going with racial hit dice, you would end up with a cr 10 monster by cr 18.

Do you think a white dragon needs a LA on top of its list of racial HD?

I've been thinking about this, and i realise there could be some concerns with the use of equipment; would limmiting the dragon to a neck slot only and no armor or manufactured weapons make it work for a single class dragon (ruling it to advance in size quicker because of enhanced experience/nutrition).\

The target power level would be tier 2-3 so I don't mind if it's a little op.

I think the wonkiest thing is the attribute bonuses. If you smooth that out, you can make dragons much more playable as PCs.
That said, dragon racial HD aren't all that bad. D12 Hit dice; 6+Int skills/level including UMD; full BAB... if you add in the attribute bonuses it's probably better than most melee classes.

[Zaydos]

I had a non-optimized party with a rust dragon/duskblade cohort and he was fairly useful. He wasn't the strongest cohort they'd managed to acquire (that was the ardent due to an improper reading of one power coupled with augmented true metabolism and maximized energy blast), but he was fully useful. He had good stats (rolled) which might have added to this but while when I'm playing a dragon I always feel the LA is a tad too high he still probably needed 1 or 2 even if not 4.

Then we had the adventure with iron golems. While most were variant golems from various sources that didn't have rust vulnerability he took out two encounters with ease using his breath weapon taking out the mini-boss (a gargantuan golem) with a single blast. So he was in adventures not particularly suited to his strengths otherwise (no metal arms and armor) although he did annoyingly destroy doors. With elite stats (+1 CR) and gear (+X) you get fairly powerful, but in an optimized tier 2 or 3 group you could probably reduce it a fair bit (note normally compare dragon to fighter and an equipped dragon with elite ability scores is better than an equal HD fighter).

[awa]

also your going to have better stats then a dragon of the same age and likely better feat choices as well. the right equipment can also make a big deal giving your dragon full plate will boost its ac a lot.

although a lot of the things that would make a dragon overpowered at low level are less relevant at high level, flight for example at low level its a big deal by high level its not nearly as overpowering

that said i tend to feel in most cases level adjustment is often set to high

[Flickerdart]

Yep, remember that an MM dragon has a base stat array of 10 10 10 11 11 11, while your PC dragon will be able to do lots better even with 25PB. That, WBL and intelligent use of your casting (Scintillating Scales wipes out your weakness to touch attacks) plus better feats, and you're much more dangerous than stock dragons. You'll probably have similar HP, BAB and casting to all but the most hardcore gishes of your level without even trying.

[Starbuck_II]

I think the wonkiest thing is the attribute bonuses. If you smooth that out, you can make dragons much more playable as PCs.
That said, dragon racial HD aren't all that bad. D12 Hit dice; 6+Int skills/level including UMD; full BAB... if you add in the attribute bonuses it's probably better than most melee classes.

Brass Dragon Wyrmlings have 1 more HD, but have no bonuses to stats. But they do get 2 Breath weapons (sleep or fire).

But White do suck. I'd lower LA by 1 for them.

[deuxhero]

There is always the Steel Dragon. 4hd and 2 LA and alternate form with a some resistances and casting.

[Sinfire Titan]

Or you could play a Dragonborn (Mind aspect) Totemist and select the right soulmelds, then substitute UMD for spellcasting. You end up nearly on-par with the real thing, and have tricks that the non-casting Dragons would never be able to get.

[Cieyrin]

Man, I miss Council of Wyrms. Such a good setting that was designed to be challenging for dragon PCs. *sigh* :smallfrown:

[Kelpstrand]

Yep, remember that an MM dragon has a base stat array of 10 10 10 11 11 11, while your PC dragon will be able to do lots better even with 25PB. That, WBL and intelligent use of your casting (Scintillating Scales wipes out your weakness to touch attacks) plus better feats, and you're much more dangerous than stock dragons. You'll probably have similar HP, BAB and casting to all but the most hardcore gishes of your level without even trying.

Not a single playable Dragon under level 20 even can cast spells at all.

An ECL 17 White Dragon has 12HD, and +5 LA. It has no casting at all, has no Frightful Presence, has no SR, has a 4d6 Breath Weapon, and has a mere +7 Racial to Str. The same as a level 12 Orc who put all his ranks into it.

And that's it's highest Racial Mod. It also has -2 Int -2 Cha, and +4 Con.

It's effectively a level 12 Water Orc Dragonborn, but with a worse breath weapon, and a fly speed. Oh yeah, and no class levels at all.

[ericgrau]

His saves, BAB, HP and skills keep up with Joe Shmoe level 17 character. Not as good as any class specializing in any one, but it is average across the board. Like Riffington said, dragon HD give a lot. Add the stats, crazy fast flight (only practical outdoors though), burrow, swim, crazy high natural armor, etc. to that. Now give him PC stats and wealth.

[sonofzeal]

A CR 10 Dragon at ECL 18 is weak even using regular player wealth rules.

I'd recommend using a Dragon class made for PCs. Belial's is pretty good, or you can look for one that's specifically a Dragon. But ECL 18 characters should be CR 17 monsters. And LA is just because the deveolpers don't want you playing cool races.

That said, Dragons are usually a bit better than their CR. So based on the Dragon in question, A level 18 character should be CR 14-16 Dragon.
Well, CR assumes four heroes, yes? I'd say that, in general, an ECL 18 hero could be a CR 15-16 monster; 17 is quite a bit too high. I mean, a Marilith or Old Brass Dragon is in that category, and a Planatar with it's 9th level Cleric spells is only CR 16.

Fact is, some monsters make totally reasonable encounters for the PCs but make horribly overpowered PCs themselves. Incorporeal ones are a prime offender at low levels, and I'm sure you can see why allowing a Ghost PC in a level 6 game is going to mess things up, even though a Ghost with a couple class levels is "only" CR 4.

[tyckspoon]

His saves, BAB, HP and skills keep up with Joe Shmoe level 17 character. Not as good as any class specializing in any one, but it is average across the board. Like Riffington said, dragon HD give a lot. Add the stats, crazy fast flight (only practical outdoors though), burrow, swim, crazy high natural armor, etc. to that. Now give him PC stats and wealth.

His HD-dependent stuff does not, by definition, keep up with a standard level 17 character, because he does not have 17 HD. The HD 12 LA 5 dragon referenced will have a BAB of 12. He has a good skill value, yes, but again it will not keep up with any decently skilled level 17 character (Fighters and other 2+ classes don't count here, except for Int-based things like Wizard.) His HP *might* be up there if he pumps his Con, but he'll have to pay for it- being a dragon only gets him a +4 bonus to the stat. And +6 Strength, for which he pays in mental stats. It's really nowhere near being as good as 17 class levels with a normal race.

Mind, I'd compare metallic dragons, which are more likely to be accepted as part of a normal party, but they don't show much better.

[ericgrau]

I said his actual stats keep up - saves, BAB, etc. - go back and reread. His dragon HD stuff is way too strong for its level because it's best at everything, not just one thing. So 12 dragon HD is about average for ECL 17. Then there's everything else on top of that listed above.

If you just want to be good at one thing and ignore his other abilities, then you'll have trouble with a dragon. But if you use all his abilities and you aren't competing with splatbook PrC's, etc., that's different. Try to make a level 12 cheeseless character that keeps up with a dragon PC in all areas, not just one. I can, however, see reducing the LA if your group plays with a lot of well optimized builds using multiple books, or even just a PrC or two.

[Pika...]

Well, as someone who has both played a dragon PC, and have run for a dragon PC (I just got a new one last gaming session due to reincarnation) I have found that simply removing the LA balances them extremely well.

With the LA they are useless if you are looking for an "optimal" PC. However, they are still awesome for roleplaying. Mine was a copper. :smallbiggrin:

After my copper I played an artificer with a red dragon effigy that the DM restricted to having the same HD as the party. So basically it had no LA. It still was not on par with the Dwarf fighter/defender, though it was pretty close.

After those two experiences, and some advice I got from the old WotC forums (before the banishment), I decided to let a player who had spent a year in other campaigns trying to become a silver dragon finally achieve his goal. I decided to go straight by the racial HD in the Dragon Magazine racial progression, hence ignoring the LA. He balanced extremely well. Even then, he was not the best/most powerful of the group.


Just my two silver pieces.

[Kelpstrand]

I said his actual stats keep up - saves, BAB, etc. - go back and reread. His dragon HD stuff is way too strong for its level because it's best at everything, not just one thing. So 12 dragon HD is about average for ECL 17. Then there's everything else on top of that listed above.

If you just want to be good at one thing and ignore his other abilities, then you'll have trouble with a dragon. But if you use all his abilities and you aren't competing with splatbook PrC's, etc., that's different. Try to make a level 12 cheeseless character that keeps up with a dragon PC in all areas, not just one. I can, however, see reducing the LA if your group plays with a lot of well optimized builds using multiple books, or even just a PrC or two.

How about I use a Water Orc Dragonborn who uses only Core feats and classes.

The race is solely to perfectly balance out the attribute mods, and because there is no Core only way to get a breath weapon.

ECL 17: Racial Stat mods: Identical except -2 Dex.
Breath weapon, 5d8 instead of 4d6. Longer reach on Dragonborn.
Classes: Ranger 2/Paladin 3/Ranger 12.

BAB: +5 over Dragon
Base saves: +12/+10/+5 vs +8/+8/+8, Ranger gets Cha added on.
Skills, Higher Max, more skill points.
HP: 8+13d8+3d10=83+ Con that applies to more HD. vs 11d12+12=73 + con on fewer HD.

Actual class features. Let's go with Combat Mastery TWFing so that we can point out how he also has more attacks for more damage.

This incredibly ****ty character beats the Dragon at literally every single possible thing.

I don't know why you are trying to defend a statement that is basically the exact opposite of what the people who made the game said.

They explicitly said that they made the LA races worse than comparable ECL standard races on purpose to discourage use.

[Starbuck_II]

Not a single playable Dragon under level 20 even can cast spells at all.

An ECL 17 White Dragon has 12HD, and +5 LA. It has no casting at all, has no Frightful Presence, has no SR, has a 4d6 Breath Weapon, and has a mere +7 Racial to Str. The same as a level 12 Orc who put all his ranks into it.

And that's it's highest Racial Mod. It also has -2 Int -2 Cha, and +4 Con.

It's effectively a level 12 Water Orc Dragonborn, but with a worse breath weapon, and a fly speed. Oh yeah, and no class levels at all.

But white's suck (this a fact).
For ECL 17:
Use Sand Dragon Juvinile 12 HD/LA +3 + 2 Class level.
+6 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, Wis +6, Cha +4. 6d4 breath (no wait 1d4 rds), +13 NA, and Haboob (damaging wall spell) at will.

Or
Brass Dragon Young 10HD, LA +4, +3 Class Level
+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, Wis +2, Cha +2. 3d6 breath (wait 1d4 rds), +9 NA, and 1st Sorc casting (plus Cleric spells as arcane chooseable).

[Random832]

Well, CR assumes four heroes, yes? I'd say that, in general, an ECL 18 hero could be a CR 15-16 monster; 17 is quite a bit too high.

No. A CR-equal-to-PC-average-level battle is _not_ supposed to be an even match (i.e. the heroes have a 50% chance of losing). It's supposed to take 20% of their (ill-defined) 'resources'.

[Boci]

It's supposed to take 20% of their (ill-defined) 'resources'.

Isn't that because its 4 against 1?

[sonofzeal]

No. A CR-equal-to-PC-average-level battle is _not_ supposed to be an even match (i.e. the heroes have a 50% chance of losing). It's supposed to take 20% of their (ill-defined) 'resources'.
Yes, and I took that into account. If it was 50% even odds, then CR-4 would be appropriate. CR-3 is probably more reasonable as a general rule of thumb, certainly no more than CR-2.

However, players are going to gravitate towards the best case scenario, and the change in context from monster to PC means that a balanced monster could be +/- perhaps around 25% of its CR when in PC hands, or more if it was an unbalanced monster for its CR to start with. You've got to take to take that into account when setting up these things. Erring on the side of underpowered is far better for game playability in the long run. If a White Dragon PC is horribly underpowered, well, nobody will play one. If a Planetar PC is horribly overpowered, then someone's going to try it and break the game.

[ericgrau]

How about I use a Water Orc Dragonborn who uses only Core feats and classes.

The race is solely to perfectly balance out the attribute mods, and because there is no Core only way to get a breath weapon.

ECL 17: Racial Stat mods: Identical except -2 Dex.
Breath weapon, 5d8 instead of 4d6. Longer reach on Dragonborn.
Classes: Ranger 2/Paladin 3/Ranger 12.

BAB: +5 over Dragon
Base saves: +12/+10/+5 vs +8/+8/+8, Ranger gets Cha added on.
Skills, Higher Max, more skill points.
HP: 8+13d8+3d10=83+ Con that applies to more HD. vs 11d12+12=73 + con on fewer HD.

Actual class features. Let's go with Combat Mastery TWFing so that we can point out how he also has more attacks for more damage.

This incredibly ****ty character beats the Dragon at literally every single possible thing.

I don't know why you are trying to defend a statement that is basically the exact opposite of what the people who made the game said.

They explicitly said that they made the LA races worse than comparable ECL standard races on purpose to discourage use.

What, no PHB race? Why does everyone always use the water orc variant, not some other random race, not even core, if it's not crazy strong compared to other LA 0 races?

Saves have similar average, cha won't be too high without MAD and a cloak of charisma costs more than a cloak of resistance. Rangers get screwed in melee cuz of light armor (unless you want to ditch a couple class abilities and skills), which is part of why fighters and barbarians do better. The dragon gets +10 AC. He also gets 102 HP plus any rolled con bonus; more than the above build (EDIT: it gets 90 + rolled con, including the OP +2 water orc con). Land speed is 60 feet besides 3 other forms of movement, blindsense (combines well w/ fog cloud btw), immunities, +6 strength plus random minor stuff like frightful presence which will get rid of a foe or two. Heck, with fly 200', just flyby attack could hit and outrun the above build given an open area to beat it. Or burrow for surprise and/or hit & run in a closed area, etc. The difference is the PC dragon doesn't have poor stats & gear to let adventurers eventually beat him in spite of these advantages.

[Indon]

Not a single playable Dragon under level 20 even can cast spells at all.

Young and Juvenile Brass, Young Bronze, Young and Juvenile Copper, Young Silver, sure there're some others but I stopped looking there. The real downside is that Dragon sorceror casting does not stack with class Sorceror casting.

Also, a five-attack natural attack routine for medium-size dragons, and a breath weapon that recharges.

You gain loads of additional RHD and LA every few years until you're Juvenile, though, which could interfere with gaining class levels if you're under that age category.

Edit: In fact, the draconic propensity to grow stronger with age is one Genesis away from cheesetastic exploitation.

[deuxhero]

The real downside is that Dragon sorceror casting does not stack with class Sorceror casting.



What? I thought it explicitly did!

[Kelpstrand]

What, no PHB race? Why does everyone always use the water orc variant, not some other random race, not even core, if it's not crazy strong compared to other LA 0 races?

I specifically choose it to mimic the Dragons racial as close as possible.


Saves have similar average, cha won't be too high without MAD and a cloak of charisma costs more than a cloak of resistance. Rangers get screwed in melee cuz of light armor, which is part of why fighters and barbarians do better. The dragon gets +10 AC. He also gets 102 HP plus any rolled con bonus. Land speed is 60 feet besides 3 other forms of movement, tremorsense, immunities, +6 strength plus random minor stuff like frightful presence which will get rid of a foe or two.

Saves are not similar, we are talking about level 17 characters, the extra charisma stacks once they both have a +5 cloak, which they will. Rangers are not screwed by light armor, light Armor is still enough for Celestial Full Plate, or Mithril Breastplate.

The Dragon get's some Natural Armor, yes, but the Ranger has better base AC.

The Dragon does not get 102HP plus rolled Con bonus. He has the same racial bonus to Con after the same PB. He also has only 73HP before Con, whereas the Ranger has 83HP before Con. The Ranger also gets Con to more HD.

The Dragon gets no tremorsense, and has only one immunity the Ranger doesn't, and that is to Cold. It also has a vulnerability to Fire. The Water Orc has a higher Str score, and the Dragon doesn't get any Frightful Presence.

[awa]

the dragon might not be exceptional at any one thing but its got a lot of versatility a decent number of skill points alot of movement types, good senses, the dragons immunity. something like a dragon isnt going to be able to match a barbarian in raw breaking stuff abbility or hit points but it can do a lot of things the barbarian cant do and thats part of what your paying for.

p.s.s on an unrelated note water orcs or overpowered

[ericgrau]

I specifically choose it to mimic the Dragons racial as close as possible.
Ok, so it's a total coincidence that water orc - a variant rule mind you - ends up in builds over and over again. As for everything else, I think there's already enough info out there for anyone to read both sides.

[Admiral Squish]

Not much to say here. I once played in a gestalt game where everyone was dragons. Dragon HD on one side, and class levels on the other. It was so very awesome.

[Starbuck_II]

Not much to say here. I once played in a gestalt game where everyone was dragons. Dragon HD on one side, and class levels on the other. It was so very awesome.

Were the enemies Gestalt Dragons too or just the PC?

[Kelpstrand]

the dragon might not be exceptional at any one thing but its got a lot of versatility a decent number of skill points alot of movement types, good senses, the dragons immunity. something like a dragon isnt going to be able to match a barbarian in raw breaking stuff abbility or hit points but it can do a lot of things the barbarian cant do and thats part of what your paying for.

p.s.s on an unrelated note water orcs or overpowered

The Dragon has fewer skill points, less versatility, and no net immunities over the Ranger. There is absolutely nothing that the Dragon can do that the Ranger cannot, except fly. It is inferior at everything else, including breathing a cold breath weapon.

That's not versatility.


Ok, so it's a total coincidence that water orc - a variant rule mind you - ends up in builds over and over again. As for everything else, I think there's already enough info out there for anyone to read both sides.

The Water Orc is clearly superior to a regular orc by a very small amount for smashem builds.

I specifically choose it because it has bonuses to the same stats the White Dragon does. That seems like a good reason to choose it, so as to match as much as possible.

Yes, they can read the monster entry and see that you are totally wrong about what a White Dragon of ECL 17 gets.

[Indon]

What? I thought it explicitly did!

Oh, my bad, I misunderstood the part talking about SLA's.

That's not so bad then.


The Dragon gets no tremorsense, and has only one immunity the Ranger doesn't, and that is to Cold.

All dragons have Blindsense instead.

Also, Dragons can wear any armor a PC can - it's not even much more expensive since the size and shape multipliers apply to the base armor, not the enchants. So, yeah, even the white dragon has more AC easy.

And as noted, White dragons kinda suck. Other dragon types are basically better.

[Oslecamo]

And as noted, White dragons kinda suck. Other dragon types are basically better.

They're suposed to be the weaker ones anyway. The fluff puts them as litle more than feral beasts, untill they become wyrms and finally their brains are big enough to start world domination plans.

Anyway, the LA comes for the following reasons:
1-Wealth. Always the wealth.
2-Player stats. The Dragon PC adds the dragon stats to his base stats, resulting imediatily in a stronger creature.
3-Extra optimization tricks like flaws, traits, and the fact that the party will be buffing him.
4-Somethings just shouldn't be easily available to players hands. Endless flight, the big size, dragon immunities, spellcasting, SLA, blindsense, if the player starts abusing them, it can easily throw a wrench in the campaign. Big LA discourages players from trying to do this.

Things are even harder to judge when it's a monster with lots of HD, because, well, those HD are giving skillpoints and saves and feats and allowing you to pick other cool stuff.

So if you really want to play a dragon I would sugest first improvising and droping some of the HD, reducing the saves, BAB, skill points, ect, then talking with your DM how much is worth the remaining stuff.

Or play Belial's dragon incarnate.

[Starbuck_II]

Anyway, the LA comes for the following reasons:
1-Wealth. Always the wealth.


You should ignore wealth since every PC gets same wealth (baring Crafting). No Race says add extra wealth per level.

[Zaydos]

You should ignore wealth since every PC gets same wealth (baring Crafting). No Race says add extra wealth per level.

But the wealth does matter. A dragon fully equipped in PC gear is going to be a tougher foe to fight. Actually a dragon that has magic items, and uses them, instead of a pile of gold is a CR or two stronger than normal, and definitely stronger than a fighter of its HD. The fact that dragons get all normal item slots coupled with their innate abilities means you can optimize their gear in several very interesting and fun ways.


Also, Dragons can wear any armor a PC can - it's not even much more expensive since the size and shape multipliers apply to the base armor, not the enchants. So, yeah, even the white dragon has more AC easy.

But they have no armor proficiencies. This means you're suffering a penalty to all attacks, or one of your too few feats, if you wear anything with an ACP. Also the multiplier applies to materials as well so mithril armor costs significantly more (4000 if you're medium or small). Even so your point stands quite well, the dragon can get a significantly higher AC with mithril chain shirt barding. The only time I've ran a dragon cohort it had a few class levels and mithril breastplate barding; then again it had more wealth than a PC of that level normally would because the PCs were overprotective of their "baby" dragon and gave it armor and such from their own gold.

The problem though is LA is set intentionally high and past the first few levels it becomes ineffective to play a dragon as their flight's low maneuverability limits them in dungeon/combat situations especially when coupled with their high speed. They do get good AC though and are a fun play.

[Foryn Gilnith]

But the wealth does matter. A dragon fully equipped in PC gear is going to be a tougher foe to fight. Actually a dragon that has magic items, and uses them, instead of a pile of gold is a CR or two stronger than normal, and definitely stronger than a fighter of its HD. The fact that dragons get all normal item slots coupled with their innate abilities means you can optimize their gear in several very interesting and fun ways.
No more fun to optimize than innate class abilities coupled with normal item slots would be; and not necessarily comparable to a well-constructed fighting build (as opposed to a full Fighter - that's just gimp for a PC). It should be measured against other PCs, not expendable monsters.

[Riffington]

I think we're comparing a number of different theories of what the OP is asking. Here's what I think he's asking:
"Suppose instead of playing an optimized Water Orc warrior-type, I instead played a dragon - most of whose levels were Dragon HD. Suppose further that he had no LA: 11 racial HD (or whatever) counted as ECL 11. Would I be overpowered?"

Let's look at a white dragon for this (a gold would be far stronger)
Level 10 (a high point): Dragon 9/Barbarian? Warblade? 1. Medium size; +4 Strength and Con; -4 Int/Cha. [presumably get all the attribute bonuses for leveling as normal?] Full BAB, Great skills, D12s. Bite/Claws/Immunities/Blindsense/Darkvision/Lowlight. Good saves, +8 natural armor, flight, icewalk, crappy breath weapon. Don't know how you'd get an armorsmith to make dragon armor, but the PC class level gives you proficiency. Seems strong as far as melee goes, weak compared to clericzilla.

A 12th level gold would get Large size, +10 natural armor, +10 strength, alternate form, etc... much nicer.

[tyckspoon]

What? I thought it explicitly did!

It does, actually, but it's not likely to amount to much. The earliest you can get draconic spellcasting from the core dragons is a Young Brass, which has 10 HD even if you do discard the LA. Deciding to focus on that afterwards is rather like deciding to start building a gish at level 10 after taking ten levels of Fighter. You'll be so far behind the curve that you won't get very far (not to say it'll be useles, you just won't impress anybody with 10 dragon HD + 10 levels of sorcerer.)

[awa]

i will point out i'm not saying a white dragon is worth as much as a level 17 charecter i'm just saying its worth more then a level 12 and why the cr of the creature is a poor measure for what level it should be in a party.
Ill readily admit that by level 17 a lot of the dragons abilities are not very good by level 17 a pc could relatively easily pick up some kind of reliable form of flight and so

[Rainbownaga]

So it may be possible to play a (single class) white dragon without even having to excessively restrict item use, just avoid cheese?

I can see how adding a level of a melee class could be an issue, but I want to keep them single class for simplicity (that said, a ninja dragon sounds like an interesting concept).

I noticed something interesting about, namely that they suck at charging- natural weapons only get 1x bonus, and even if they get the pounce abililty, the RAW is that they have to attack when they're in range, so from size large onwards they can't pounce even if they have the ability to.

[Grumman]

You'll be so far behind the curve that you won't get very far (not to say it'll be useles, you just won't impress anybody with 10 dragon HD + 10 levels of sorcerer.)
If you were going to play a dragon-gish, wouldn't that suggest that you should take actual gish classes? If you've got the B.A.B. and you've got the spellcasting, you'd at least take Abjurant Champion instead of Sorcerer.

[horngeek]

Not much to say here. I once played in a gestalt game where everyone was dragons. Dragon HD on one side, and class levels on the other. It was so very awesome.

I now want to play this.

See my avvie for why.

[FatR]

I said his actual stats keep up - saves, BAB, etc. - go back and reread. His dragon HD stuff is way too strong for its level because it's best at everything, not just one thing.
Only if you compare it with class HD of fighers and other useless classes. Compared to real classes, that actually get some relevant abilities, dragon HD are completely worthless. Dragons require serious negative LA to be remotely playable, because their HD greatly outpace their CR, even considering that their CRs are lower that they should be. Always remember, that real guideline for monster's strength is CR. LA is just there to screw people over for wanting to play monsters. By HD+LA, a green wyrmling is an equivalent of level 10, but let me tell, you, in a party of 9-th level mostly-unoptimized characters one of them is only useful as a foedar, thanks to his blindsense, and as someone who saves charges of Acid Arrow wand by finishing off regenerators. He just cannot create a viable threat. In melee he'll die in one round, and his ranged ability is so weak that most enemies practically ignore it. Note, that I speak from play experience.


If you just want to be good at one thing and ignore his other abilities, then you'll have trouble with a dragon. But if you use all his abilities and you aren't competing with splatbook PrC's, etc., that's different. Try to make a level 12 cheeseless character that keeps up with a dragon PC in all areas, not just one.
Rogue 12 or Bard 12 do everything a dragon PC can possibly do, on top of their primary schtick. Wizard 12, Cleric 12, Druid 12 outpace a dragon PCs by such immense leaps and bounds, that it isn't even funny. That's before even considering that doing everything poorly is not a viable role.

[Rainbownaga]

So it seems then that the problem with dragons is that they're too defensive-focused; incredibly easy to boost their AC, and they have a great speed, but they're dependence on natural weapons seems to let them down.

When I made my first post I was worried that a dragon was going to be overpowered without LA, but it's starting to sound like a monk :smalleek:

[tyckspoon]

If you were going to play a dragon-gish, wouldn't that suggest that you should take actual gish classes? If you've got the B.A.B. and you've got the spellcasting, you'd at least take Abjurant Champion instead of Sorcerer.

Probably, but you're still dealing with having at most 11 levels that count toward spellcasting progression, and either using LA or playing a different dragon type will lose two-four more. Taking Ab. Champ all the way to 5 would at least fix the dragon's otherwise horrible caster level.

[Starbuck_II]

So it seems then that the problem with dragons is that they're too defensive-focused; incredibly easy to boost their AC, and they have a great speed, but they're dependence on natural weapons seems to let them down.

When I made my first post I was worried that a dragon was going to be overpowered without LA, but it's starting to sound like a monk :smalleek:

Exactly, Dragons As PCs aren't any better than Monks: they sound better than they are.

The Homebrew Dragon Incarnate is pretty balanced with the whole turning into a dragon thing. Although, she forgot that magic itemd resize (besides weapons).

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

What we are all saying is that the ECL calculations are flawed.

LA is just there to screw people over for wanting to play monsters. By HD+LA, a green wyrmling is an equivalent of level 10, but let me tell, you, ... In melee he'll die in one round, and his ranged ability is so weak that most enemies practically ignore it. Note, that I speak from play experience.

Losing the class levels is just too great a nerf.

Or you could play a Dragonborn (Mind aspect) Totemist and select the right soulmelds, then substitute UMD for spellcasting. You end up nearly on-par with the real thing, and have tricks that the non-casting Dragons would never be able to get.


Well, as someone who has both played a dragon PC, and have run for a dragon PC (I just got a new one last gaming session due to reincarnation) I have found that simply removing the LA balances them extremely well.It is clear that the LA or the HD's counting against the ECL have to be changed.

Unlike the direction of this thread I say, 'make the HD free up to double the LA.' Attacking it from the HD side works too and still allows that 'man I must be playing a powerful creature, just look at my LA!' feeling. Some rather common-sense adjustments make this about as playable as what Sinfire mentioned.

The point is it doesn't matter which side you ease up the ECL from so long as you just go for it and use some common sense.

[Zaydos]

You know I just realized what always struck me as wrong about dragon PCs. The Dragon Cohort feat


DRAGON COHORT [GENERAL]
You gain the service of a loyal dragon ally.
Prerequisites: Character level 9th, Speak Language (Draconic).
Benefit: You gain a cohort selected from Table 3–14: Dragon Cohorts (page 139), just as you would by selecting the Leadership feat. However, you may treat the dragon’s ECL as if it were 3 lower than indicated.
See Dragons as Cohorts, page 138, for more information.


You can gain a dragon that is higher level than you are as a cohort at the cost of 1 feat. Now if the dragon ECL was well made in the first place this feat would be completely broken (worse than leadership by far). It's not an abused feat, or even as good as Leadership even though you get a cohort that is "effectively" 3 levels higher.

[Riffington]

Unlike the direction of this thread I say, 'make the HD free up to double the LA.' Attacking it from the HD side works too and still allows that 'man I must be playing a powerful creature, just look at my LA!' feeling. Some rather common-sense adjustments make this about as playable as what Sinfire mentioned.

The point is it doesn't matter which side you ease up the ECL from so long as you just go for it and use some common sense.

I want to make sure I understand this. So if hypothetically you take a +6 LA dragon, you get 12 free dragon HD. So if you're a 13th level character, you have 12 dragon HD and 7 PC HD, making 19 hit dice, BAB 19, skill max of 22, and the feats/attribute bonuses of a 19th level character?

[Indon]

So, would a flat -3 ECL modifier do it?

[Zaydos]

No idea. I was just pointing out that they gave it to dragon cohorts by RAW so it would probably be a decent place to start with PCs. Would it fix everything? Probably not. The real problem is some of the abilities they pay LA for (flight!) are not as useful at high levels but they still pay full cost for it (raptorans have no LA and flight at 11, most characters will find a way to fly by high levels even if they have to go for wings of flight or boots of flying, not to say it isn't useful at 20th level but only not worth LA since it can be acquired in so many other manners) and their breath weapon which they suffer a +1 LA for is useless if it deals direct damage (weaker than a dragonfire adept's usually) or really strong if it has certain effects.

Example: Rust dragon really weak except against fighters where suddenly it destroys all their stuff and eats the nekkid person.
Or oceanus dragon which uses Heightened Breath Weapon and maxed out Con. Ran a 1 shot with one. Really, really useful at 18th level versus devils... that is until the pit fiend comes and uses blasphemy at will.

[Kelpstrand]

Personally, if I wanted a player to play an actual Dragon, how I would do it is make a Dragon PC class.

Basically:

Step 1: Gets Dragon HD: d12, +1 BAB, 6+Int skills, All good saves.
Step 2: Gets a Breath Weapon. 1d6 per level, with a range based on size.
Step 3: Bard spellcasting, but off the Sorcerer list.
Step 4: Natural Attacks of a Dragon your size.
Step 5: Fly speed of Dragon your Size.
Step 6: Try to figure out what levels it is appropriate to give a size increase to keep them in line with other characters. Size increases grant stat changes as per MM.
Step 7: Fill in dead levels to taste with SLAs as a Dragon of that type, and an extra status effect breath weapon.

Step 0: Set up Dragon races that determine breath weapon type, grant immunities, And grant Racial +2 Con +4 Dex +2 Cha.

[Riffington]

You can gain a dragon that is higher level than you are as a cohort at the cost of 1 feat. Now if the dragon ECL was well made in the first place this feat would be completely broken (worse than leadership by far). It's not an abused feat, or even as good as Leadership even though you get a cohort that is "effectively" 3 levels higher.

Your conclusion (that dragon LA is too high) is correct, but I don't know that this analogy quite works.
1. Leadership gives followers too, not just a cohort. (though admittedly, the abuse of leadership often relies on the cohort more than the followers)
2. Dragons probably make better leaders than cohorts. A pixie healbot cleric is the opposite: quite weak as a PC, but strong/cheesy as a cohort.

[Oslecamo]

You should ignore wealth since every PC gets same wealth (baring Crafting). No Race says add extra wealth per level.

And a classless wealthless(aka commoner) human is CR what again? Lower than CR 1 I'm sure of it.

Yet a human with a class and wealth sudenly rises to CR and ECL 1!

Anyway, the main point is that monsters weren't designed to be used by players in the first place. You can use them, you can optimize them, but they'll never fit perfectly with a party composed of regular races if you take them straight out of the book.


Kelpstrand:Draconic racial bonus to dex? Where did you get that from??:smallconfused:

Also, your custom class basically makes bards cry, and the rogue and barbarian aren't very happy also so I would only sugest it for high powered games, since the other classes I mentioned now are normally considered to the middle ground we have in D&D.

[Kelpstrand]

Kelpstrand:Draconic racial bonus to dex? Where did you get that from??:smallconfused:

Also, your custom class basically makes bards cry, and the rogue and barbarian aren't very happy also so I would only sugest it for high powered games, since the other classes I mentioned now are normally considered to the middle ground we have in D&D.

Size changes give minus to dex. This counteracts it so that a Maximum size Dragon still has no Dex penalty, just like the D&D ones.

But yes, Bards/non-Pounce Barbarians/Most rogue builds, should be made to cry. They are made to cry by Wizards and Clerics and Pounce Barbs and DFI Bards and other Rogue builds and Druids, and really everyone you would actually want to play, already make them cry.

Why you would want to balance a homebrew class so that it never gets used is beyond me. People who are okay playing Core Barbarians are people who are okay playing 3 LA 5 HD Dragons instead of level 8 characters and will never look for a Dragon class to balance.

[Zaydos]

Your conclusion (that dragon LA is too high) is correct, but I don't know that this analogy quite works.
1. Leadership gives followers too, not just a cohort. (though admittedly, the abuse of leadership often relies on the cohort more than the followers)
2. Dragons probably make better leaders than cohorts. A pixie healbot cleric is the opposite: quite weak as a PC, but strong/cheesy as a cohort.

Which was my point even at ECL -3 a dragon cohort is probably not as powerful as a normal cohort or as good as leadership sinc you can still cheese it out less. Possibly if you needed a strong melee cohort a dragon could function, but normally leadership cheese comes from spellcasters or classes such as marshal which function to buff other characters. Even without cheese, though, a character of ECL your level +1 should be stronger by far than 1 feat or even leadership but I'd take leadership instead of every time if I wanted pure power (as is I'd take dragon cohort to play a somewhat effective dragon via the cohort).

Strangely enough I've run 4 adventures with dragons. In one they were Lv 5 using Dragon 320's monster progression and were a tad weak for unoptimized characters. In another two an ECL 17/18 cohort rust dragon duskblade which might have done better except the PCs were scared to let it in melee (not using dragon cohort but just allowing the PCs to RP gaining familiars). In another an oceanus dragon ECL 18. Of the three the rust dragon was alright, but on the weak side (except vs rust golems) and the oceanus dragon was strong due to 1/encounter DC 34 daze for 9 rounds in a 30-ft cone (blasphemy was it's one weakness).
That said it's the only time I've seen a fully effective dragon build for a PC and even then it was a one trick pony. I am going to hopefully run another one shot with a gestalt dragon in about a month wizard 3/master specialist 5/divine oracle 5//very young shadow dragon/binder 1/shadow caster 2. Honestly I'd reduce dragon ECL by 3 without hesitation in a normal game, but it seems more effective in gestalt (I've never ran gestalt before so we'll see). Wizard with 7 dragon HD, +6 to all mental stats, and +10 AC I think. It doesn't give as many options as some combinations could but it does give good/useful buffs that don't require actions to activate.

[Oslecamo]

Size changes give minus to dex. This counteracts it so that a Maximum size Dragon still has no Dex penalty, just like the D&D ones.
However, with three size increases, and with player stats, he'll end up with more str than normal, and also more dex, since, well, the player will almost surely put some points in there.



But yes, Bards/non-Pounce Barbarians/Most rogue builds, should be made to cry. They are made to cry by Wizards and Clerics and Pounce Barbs and DFI Bards and other Rogue builds and Druids, and really everyone you would actually want to play, already make them cry.

Wizards and clerics have very varying levels of power depending on how they're played. Mr.healbot and Mr.fireball+magic missile don't make anyone cry.:smallsmile:

Also there's no such thing as a pounce barbarian. There exists only the pounce dip.:smalltongue:



Why you would want to balance a homebrew class so that it never gets used is beyond me. People who are okay playing Core Barbarians are people who are okay playing 3 LA 5 HD Dragons instead of level 8 characters and will never look for a Dragon class to balance.
Hmm, I must admit that logic is kinda undeniable. People who aren't willing to eat LA probaly want power.

Still, it's probably stronger than Belial's custom class, and that one is considered strong by a lot of people. People who're playing on a campaign where the monsters are remains from an arena designed to challenge the finest batman wizards.

[Kelpstrand]

However, with three size increases, and with player stats, he'll end up with more str than normal, and also more dex, since, well, the player will almost surely put some points in there.

Not really. A Huge Dragon, (probably the maximum size given before 20) is going to be only a +16 racial to Str. And a Huge Red is +21 racial. A Large Red has +11 minimum. But this only has +8 at large.


Still, it's probably stronger than Belial's custom class, and that one is considered strong by a lot of people. People who're playing on a campaign where the monsters are remains from an arena designed to challenge the finest batman wizards.

I would not say it is stronger at all. While I haven't added specific Size categories, you are only one dragon, with one breath timer, and maybe an extra breath weapon on the same timer at level 12+, and not chosen from all dragons, assigned based on your dragon type. Only one Dragon Immunity, instead of 1-4 as leveled.

The Size bonuses to stats are generally only a few points above or below class level, so about the same as the Dragon Incarnate, but with less Con.

Bard casting is admittedly nice, but exists to make up for worse breath weapons, and lower stats.

Not to mention the sheer diversity: Breath attacks/melee/casting, but lacking the ability to use any of those to the same level as a class focused on it, you have to spread feats around and so you have an even worse breath weapon than a Dragon Incarnate with only one Breath, because his feats are spread wider.

I'd say it's about even with Dragon Incarnate.

[Kobold-Bard]

I've seen mention to a class by Belial, could someone provide a link please?


Personally, if I wanted a player to play an actual Dragon, how I would do it is make a Dragon PC class.

Basically:

Step 1: Gets Dragon HD: d12, +1 BAB, 6+Int skills, All good saves.
Step 2: Gets a Breath Weapon. 1d6 per level, with a range based on size.
Step 3: Bard spellcasting, but off the Sorcerer list.
Step 4: Natural Attacks of a Dragon your size.
Step 5: Fly speed of Dragon your Size.
Step 6: Try to figure out what levels it is appropriate to give a size increase to keep them in line with other characters. Size increases grant stat changes as per MM.
Step 7: Fill in dead levels to taste with SLAs as a Dragon of that type, and an extra status effect breath weapon.

Step 0: Set up Dragon races that determine breath weapon type, grant immunities, And grant Racial +2 Con +4 Dex +2 Cha.

Would something like this be feasable?

[Starbuck_II]

Here is the link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6951676

[deuxhero]

4-Somethings just shouldn't be easily available to players hands. Endless flight, the big size, dragon immunities, spellcasting, SLA, blindsense, if the player starts abusing them, it can easily throw a wrench in the campaign. Big LA discourages players from trying to do this.

1.Raptorian and Dragonborn, or just overland flight, 2.why do all the small and med ones have massive LA still, 3.elf gives sleep immune (and 1? effect exists that isn't based on hit dice anyways) paralyzed is... hold person/mass version and an assassin ability? 4. Wizard/sorc. 5.None are that powerful untill you get till HD>20. 6.Ok, I always thought negating entire builds automaticly was stupid, valid.

[Kobold-Bard]

Here is the link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6951676

Thanks. Looks good.