Making a divine gish, No Cleric lvls, Paladin byt PrC only

[oxinabox]

So making a divine Gish
But Not CLeric or Core Paladin lvls.

How would you go about it?

As much psudo arcane magic as possible.
by wich i mean things people think are arcane spells, but can be cast divine (ie almo0st all of them if you archivist out the domains).

What PrC's are there that advance divine casting, ones that are inteneded for paladins?

[Temet Nosce]

Crusader/Ur-Priest/RKV

Unless I misunderstood you, your post was rather unclear. Are you saying you want no Paladin, or that you want to make a Paladin?

[HereticNox]

I believe he wants a divine gish, that is not a paladin or cleric, and he wants a PrC that advances divine spells, that would fit a paladin theme.

I can't think of anything, that is like a paladin with more casting.

I suppose a favored soul would be like a divine magic user, essentially a divine sorcerer. You could make it a favored soul of whatever diety, and then use the Prc Church Inquisitor to advance divine spell casting. At least for the first two levels.

Hospitaler gives you armor, and weapon proficiencies and advances your casting on the second level. Sort of a gish I suppose. Also gives you the lay on hands ability, for that paladin like class.


I don't know if this helps.

[JeenLeen]

Do you want to avoid casters such as Favored Soul, Shugenja, and Spirit Shaman* and other 'spiritual' casters?

Do you need to be good? And what level of optimization is preferred/allowed, or is this any concept regardless of power?

*I forget if this is arcane or divine

[oxinabox]

A dm i know is planning a game with no arcane casters, not as players.
just to prove that he is not limmiting anything, i want to make a divine castere that can do anything a wizard can.

Then to add to the chalange, no cleric. and make a gish.

PrC paladin is more a way of advancing divine casting.
it's a gish PrC.

Actually, so is PrC ranger.
a Archivist qualifies for both.
Admittedly both are 50% casting.
But they are also full BaB, and provenly decent classes

[Cyclocone]

Archivist with Divine Powah. Done.

[SparkMandriller]

A dm i know is planning a game with no arcane casters, not as players.
just to prove that he is not limmiting anything, i want to make a divine castere that can do anything a wizard can.

Good luck with that!

[Eldariel]

Cleric with tons of extra domains and tons of Domain Spontaneity. Contemplative, Sovereign Speaker, Chruch Inquisitor, Divine Oracle...

[riddles]

favored soul/prestige paladin/anything you like

done.

[Sinfire Titan]

Crusader/Ur-Priest/RKV

Unless I misunderstood you, your post was rather unclear. Are you saying you want no Paladin, or that you want to make a Paladin?

Not enough win here.


Hexblade 2/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Crusader 2/Ur-Priest 4/RKV 10

You said no Core Paladin levels, and UA isn't Core (despite being SRD material).

The alternate:

Teifling Incarnate 6/Ur-Priest 2/Contemplative 1/Reflavored Sapphire Hierarch 10/Divine Oracle 1

The latter is tricky: DMM Persist on Divine Power, Incarnum Apothesis, and a few other spells for Full BAB.


Fact: Teifling Incarnate substitution levels give you the skill and save requirements for Ur-Priest. In fact, said sub levels are the only base-class method of entering Ur-Priest without multiclassing or waiting until your saves are high enough through natural progression.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Doesn't Savage Bard work for Ur-Priest?

[Optimystik]

Surprised nobody has said Druid yet, especially since they get several arcane spells.

Natural Spell and Wildshape give you your gishiness.

[Kylarra]

Making a character to prove the DM wrong never seems to end up well. Did you actually talk to him about what he's trying to do or are you just assuming things?

I was going to add Druid 20 to the list, but then someone else did already.

[Sinfire Titan]

Doesn't Savage Bard work for Ur-Priest?

Huhn... so it does. That makes two ways.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Really, I would have thought that Savage Bard would be more apparent than a racial subclass. But MoI does encourage full mastery of the material.

From my reading of oxinabox, he's not trying to prove the DM wrong. The DM banned arcane casters (a move which he shows no signs of disagreeing with) and he wants to prove that this won't limit a party. Taking up the traditionally arcane role with thw options available to him.

[Kylarra]

From my reading of oxinabox, he's not trying to prove the DM wrong. The DM banned arcane casters (a move which he shows no signs of disagreeing with) and he wants to prove that this won't limit a party. Taking up the traditionally arcane role with thw options available to him.
I suppose. The thing about banning arcanists is that you still have your divine tier 1/2's who can do everything just fine. Not exactly the same, but to the same overwhelming level, which is why I called into question the DM's motives in banning the arcanists.

I wouldn't say he's trying to take a traditional arcanist role, since gishes are relatively rare, and the core divine casters do it straight out of the box.

[Draz74]

Archivist with Divine Powah. Done.

Add in the Knowledge Devotion feat, and this is your answer. Perfectly serviceable Gish, especially if you consider archers to be gishes (Zen Archery); and on top of that, can pick a variety of spells that makes even Wizards and Clerics jealous.

[oxinabox]

He's banning arcanists for plot reasons.

Unfortunatle PrC paladin requires turn undead.
So 1 lvl of Cleric, (get some nice domain powers)
stack of archievist and a little fighter.
PrC palidin 3, PrC ranger x
The paladin PrC that is for shooting things with bows from horses.
:smallfrown:Have i lost enough caster lvls yet?


Or Sacred fist/monk it up.

[DragoonWraith]

A dm i know is planning a game with no arcane casters, not as players.
just to prove that he is not limmiting anything, i want to make a divine castere that can do anything a wizard can.
Well, Archivist is the obvious answer to that. The Archivist is just a Divine Wizard with class features.

Of course, I suspect your DM won't be handing out Divine Wizard Scrolls much, either...

Stupid question, though: Why, when your DM comes up with a restriction like that, do you feel the need to "stick it to him" and finding a loophole? If you aren't interested in playing a non-arcane game, you should just tell him, otherwise you should just play the game with an appropriate and fitting character and let your DM do his thing. The passive-aggressive "I'm going to beat you at your own game" schtick is just... I dunno. Personally, were I the DM, I'd be pretty annoyed by it.

I find the thought of a game where all arcanists are NPCs (and presumably the bad guys) pretty interesting, actually, despite my favoring of arcana.

[Claudius Maximus]

Hexblade 2/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Crusader 2/Ur-Priest 4/RKV 10

You can't be both a Ruby Knight Vindicator and an Ur-Priest.

[Foryn Gilnith]

RKW RKV requires Wee Jas Worship. Wee Jas takes evil worshippers. Ur-Priest does not require atheism, merely no divine spellcasting ability. Just use RKV to advance Ur-Priest and you're set.


Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.
Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least one Devoted Spirit maneuver.
Martial Stancess: Must know at least one Devoted Spirit stance.
Deity: Wee Jas.
Special: Ability to turn or rebuke undead.


Alignment: Any evil.
Base Save Bonus: Fort +3, Will +3.
Skills: Bluff 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus (evil).
Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken. The character must be trained by another ur-priest.

No contradiction there.

[Thurbane]

For CHA based goodness, I'd recommend Favored Soul 6/Knight of the Raven X. If you also want to pick up all martial weapons without losing a caster level, grab a level of Dragonslayer.

If you're going for a Paladin theme, you can taylor your spell selection to be as Paladinesque or arcanish as you like.

KotR is from the module EtCR, so the DM may or may not allow it. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102447) for more ideas. :smallsmile:

[Diamondeye]

Favored Soul X/Crusader 10-X/Kuby Knight Vindicator 10. decide how much you want spellcasting versus maneuvers to decide how many levels of each.

[oxinabox]

Stupid question, though: Why, when your DM comes up with a restriction like that, do you feel the need to "stick it to him" and finding a loophole? If you aren't interested in playing a non-arcane game, you should just tell him, otherwise you should just play the game with an appropriate and fitting character and let your DM do his thing. The passive-aggressive "I'm going to beat you at your own game" schtick is just... I dunno. Personally, were I the DM, I'd be pretty annoyed by it.
He's not my dm.
well he is (in a differnent game), but I don' think I'm playing in this game.
i'm just proving a point.

I like the UrPriest/ vindicator method.

Great point about the archievist and the scrolls.

I guess making a Gish contradicts my point of making an arcanist, as most divines are gish-ish, even archivist (medium armor prof.) to some small extent.

[Grumman]

RKW RKV requires Wee Jas Worship. Wee Jas takes evil worshippers. Ur-Priest does not require atheism, merely no divine spellcasting ability. Just use RKV to advance Ur-Priest and you're set.
Plus, it seems like it would be perfectly in character for Wee Jas or Vecna to approve of a "cleric" who experimented with such attempts to draw power from other gods.

[oxinabox]

wait, Ur priest only gains cleric list.
No domains, can't make anything psudo arcane out of that

[DragoonWraith]

9th level spellcasting by 15th is hardly "not anything".

Anyway, what point are you proving? I mean, you said he was banning arcane casters for storyline reasons, not balance reasons... What does showing that divine casters can be broken too do for you?

[oxinabox]

Anyway, what point are you proving? I mean, you said he was banning arcane casters for storyline reasons, not balance reasons... What does showing that divine casters can be broken too do for you?

I'm not proving brokeness.
Divine metamagic is one of the most broken things out, esp in campaigns with almost no undead.
I'm proving that magic that looks and feels just like arcane is still availabe in the divine lists.

Again, i shouoldn't be trying to build a gish.
Is there a way to get more domains into a cleric?

[Ganurath]

Contemplative can get more domains.

Ur-Priest can't be a RKV because Ur-Priests have spurned the gods. The moment you qualify for RKV's belief requirement is the moment you stop getting the benefits of the Ur-Priest class.

Personally, I'd suggest Monk/Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist, or just go straight Druid with Natural Spell and Maximized Quillblasts.

[Tokiko Mima]

Is there any way you could work in Killer Gnome cheese? Shadowcraft Mage doesn't require you cast arcane spells, only 3 different illusion spells, and the cleric list has plenty of illusion spells (Disguise Self for one.). It even has Skull of Secrets, a 4th level Illusion(Shadow) spell that precisely qualifies a 4th level Ur-Priest to be a Shadowcraft Mage.

Of course, you'd need to figure out some way to get Silent image (or another image spell) on your spell list. I dunno if you could do the shadow miracles, as you'd need to somehow add Miracle to the Sor/Wiz spell list. All I can think of is getting a warlock to scribe miracle to a scroll, and having a wizard copy that spell permanently into a spellbook so you could use some type of 9th level Anyspell. That probably still won't put it on the Sor/Wiz list. :smallfrown:

Any ideas?

[Eldariel]

Well, surely some Domain grants Silent Image. Archivist, much?

[Sinfire Titan]

Contemplative can get more domains.

Ur-Priest can't be a RKV because Ur-Priests have spurned the gods. The moment you qualify for RKV's belief requirement is the moment you stop getting the benefits of the Ur-Priest class.

Personally, I'd suggest Monk/Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist, or just go straight Druid with Natural Spell and Maximized Quillblasts.

There's no Ex-Ur-Priest entry in the class text. Ur-Priest also does not require you to forsake the gods, it only suggests it as flavor. Flavor can be altered. Ur-Priest only requires that you forsake your existing Divine casting, if any.

[Evil the Cat]

Well, surely some Domain grants Silent Image. Archivist, much?

Illusion Domain, Gnome domain both give silent image, and both are appropriate for a gnome aiming for Shadowcraft Mage. Toss in heighten spell and domain spontaneity from phb2 and you're good to go with a killer gnome cleric. This ultimately gives you every arcane conjuration and evocation spell up to 8th level. toss earth sense/earth spell and get the 9th level ones too, with super high CL and save DCs.

Magic domain for all arcane scrolls/wands/staves without UMD is also a winner.

[Jayabalard]

Stupid question, though: Why, when your DM comes up with a restriction like that, do you feel the need to "stick it to him" and finding a loophole? If you aren't interested in playing a non-arcane game, you should just tell him, otherwise you should just play the game with an appropriate and fitting character and let your DM do his thing. The passive-aggressive "I'm going to beat you at your own game" schtick is just... I dunno. Personally, were I the DM, I'd be pretty annoyed by it.I don't think that's a stupid question at all...

[Foryn Gilnith]

Ur-Priest can't be a RKV because Ur-Priests have spurned the gods. The moment you qualify for RKV's belief requirement is the moment you stop getting the benefits of the Ur-Priest class.

It's not in the requirements that I took the time to type up.

oxinabox stated that the reason arcane casters are banned is fluff. Being a arcane-ish divine caster does not negate this fluff. The DM's will is at no point being subverted.

Of course, trying to be both an arcane caster mimic and a gish is excessive and likely to fail.

[jiriku]

Is there a way to get more domains into a cleric?

Contemplative. Church Inquisitor (this is also an early entery PrC). Divine Disciple. Divine Oracle. Rainbow Servant. Radiant Servant of Pelor. Seeker of the Mystic Isle. Ordained Champion. War Priest. Take your pick.


Edit: Also, you're correct, you can totally gish with any straight divine caster. Even a cloistered cleric can easily function as a main tank with the right feat and spell selection. You don't even need good gear.

[Thurbane]

OK, so if the goal is for the character to primarily replicate the abilities of an arcane gish, I would recommend Archvist X/Dragonslayer 1/Knight of the Raven (or other full BAB PrC that advances casting).

With the Archivists insanely broad spell selection you should be able to nab a whole bunch of traditionally arcane spells (domains, adepts, divine bards etc.), use all weapons and armor, and have a decent BAB (which can of course be supplemented with Divine Power).

Ox, if you tell me what sort of level you're looking at, I'd be interested in making a hypothetical build. :smallwink: