Feats that don't do anything [3.5]

[Djibriel]

I'm not talking about Skill Focus (Speak Language), mind you.

I'm talking about Feats such as Investigate from the Eberron Campaign Setting, which expands the utility of your Search skill check to include being able to find 'clues' leading you to the truth/target. But that's already how it works, isn't it? If a DM wants to play a murder mystery campaign, he either doesn't use clues in the story or lets the players find the clue on a "take 20" Search check. The DM will never let the story stop advancing because nobody take the Feat.

It's the same as Research (ECS, which allows you to research info from books and scrolls), Track and Urban Tracking (ECS, also Unearthed Arcana). If it's relevant, the players will succeed in finding the trail anyway; if the DM is having four Fighters rampage around the countryside, he'll make an NPC pointing the way to advance the story.

Most of the levels of the underwhelming PrC called Master Inquisitive suffers from this; Investigate is a prereq, and his main unique class feature is contacting shady NPCs to get info. The DM may put relevant information on those NPCs if he has a Master I. in the party; if there isn't one, the party will find the info - if its relevant - some other way. So at the end of the day, the class feature is completely useless as it doesn't benefit the party in any way.

Thoughts? Other additions?

[Mystic Muse]

dodge. you gain a +1 AC bonus on a creature you target. I don't see any use for this other than it making me able to get into the master of the nine PRC.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I'm not talking about Skill Focus (Speak Language), mind you.

I'm talking about Feats such as Investigate from the Eberron Campaign Setting, which expands the utility of your Search skill check to include being able to find 'clues' leading you to the truth/target. But that's already how it works, isn't it? If a DM wants to play a murder mystery campaign, he either doesn't use clues in the story or lets the players find the clue on a "take 20" Search check. The DM will never let the story stop advancing because nobody take the Feat.

It's the same as Research (ECS, which allows you to research info from books and scrolls), Track and Urban Tracking (ECS, also Unearthed Arcana). If it's relevant, the players will succeed in finding the trail anyway; if the DM is having four Fighters rampage around the countryside, he'll make an NPC pointing the way to advance the story.

Most of the levels of the underwhelming PrC called Master Inquisitive suffers from this; Investigate is a prereq, and his main unique class feature is contacting shady NPCs to get info. The DM may put relevant information on those NPCs if he has a Master I. in the party; if there isn't one, the party will find the info - if its relevant - some other way. So at the end of the day, the class feature is completely useless as it doesn't benefit the party in any way.

Thoughts? Other additions?

I think that's because IMO d20 (3.5) is more of a simulationist type game. so in theory the players should not be able to pick up clues like that with out the feat nor should they be able to track the warriors ramage... they should however find another way around those but both should require some sort of resource (resource in this case including time).

Alot of gms fudge those things to increase "fun".

[Kylarra]

Endurance sort of falls under this too, although for different reasons.

[DudestMonk]

Cooperative Casting = Prereq to PrC - Mage of the Arcane Order...Strikes me as particularly useless aside from getting me into the order.

[GreatWyrmGold]

dodge. you gain a +1 AC bonus on a creature you target. I don't see any use for this other than it making me able to get into the master of the nine PRC.

Spring Attack.
Edit: I mean, Dodge lets you get Spring Attack.

[jiriku]

Totally true. I was very excited to see the research and investigate feats, as I run campaigns where research and investigation are important...until I read the feats. They did exactly what I was already letting my players do. It's like you're taking a feat to be able to participate in the plot. Master Inquisitive, likewise, is a fluff description of a class, still in search of class features. You could do basically the same thing with a cloistered cleric or a bard and have an actual spell list to boot.

I suppose you could restrict the ability to research and investigate only to people with the feats, but then you're locking everyone else out of participating in those scenes. I guess as a DM the best I can do with them is to let players know at character creation that there are special sources of knowledge and power available only to characters with research. Much like Leadership, these feats give you guaranteed access to set game world resources that aren't subject to DM fiat. But even that doesn't feel like a very satisfying solution.

[Captain Six]

Not feats but skill tricks feel like this. They let you do stuff with your skills that you probably should be able to do anyway, because you have the skill for it. The most laughable is the one where if you pass a spot check you're able to point out what you saw to the other players.

Endurance I love. Depending on how much the DM brings up environmental hazards (most don't) it can be downright vital. My DM is the kind who brings up environmental hazards.

[Keshay]

There's a .pdf of all (most?) of the 3.5 D&D feats. My group has long since been of the opinion that all feats should not cost the same in terms of "one per every three levels" since some are clearly better than others.

Anyhow I printed the pdf out and got to work labeling them based on how I perceived thier value. In the first ten pages I found no fewer than 5-6 feats that simply never should have been conceived as feats or were utterly redundant...

Here's one: Mobile Spellcasting. Make a DC 20+SL Concentration check to be able to cast a spell and move as a standard action, can not be used with spells witha casting time greater than one standard action. Says nothing about granting additional movement, and since you can always make a move and a standard action anyway, what exactly does this feat do?

Heres a link to the list: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf

Seems like a lot of the unnecessary feats are from Ebberon. Investigation, Research, Urban tracking...

[Mongoose87]

Natural spell. I mean, who uses Wildshape, anyways?

[Paulus]

Oh please don't get me started. Most of Core falls under this curse. I despise feats which only work for low levels and become dead weight at higher levels. Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Acrobatic, alertness, ... All those little +2 feats are great at low levels, but the higher you get, those +2 suddenly don't matter so much.

I am a huge fan of feat scaling, if all of those +2 or +1's improved to at least +5 later on it they would remain "worth it". As it is, they are only good marginally more valuable because they are prerequisites. Especially when you compare things. A feat should be a feat, like I don't know, being able to fight with two weapons at once, a +2 to your will save which usually needs to be up in the teens seems rather sad.

If all feats were allowed to scale you might just find the Fighter on par with the Wizard. Maybe. But it's all wishful thinking, most DM's don't allow that sort of thing. Thus most of these feats just sit there collecting dust, as no one takes them. Not even in core only. BAH!

[lsfreak]

Just to point out, Mobile Spellcasting allows you to move while casting, and still take a move action.

[sonofzeal]

Natural spell. I mean, who uses Wildshape, anyways?
Actually, there's a fair point here - if Natural Spell didn't exist, many DMs would allow spellcasting in Wildshape anyway under the assumption that's how it's supposed to work. Many still do allow Wizards to spellcast while polymorphed, which is under similar restrictions.

[SoC175]

Here's one: Mobile Spellcasting. Make a DC 20+SL Concentration check to be able to cast a spell and move as a standard action, can not be used with spells witha casting time greater than one standard action. Says nothing about granting additional movement, and since you can always make a move and a standard action anyway, what exactly does this feat do?
Mobile spellcasting is the spellcaster version of spring attack / shot on the run.

[Faulty]

Bonus Feat
Effect: You gain a bonus feat. This feat may be any feat you have the prerequisites for.
Special: You may select Bonus Feat multiple times. A Fighter may select Bonus Feat as a bonus feat.

[jokey665]

Bonus Feat
Effect: You gain a bonus feat. This feat may be any feat you have the prerequisites for.
Special: You may select Bonus Feat multiple times. A Fighter may select Bonus Feat as a bonus feat.

this lets fighters spend their special-fighter-only-bonus-feats on any feat they want >_>

[Fiery Diamond]

Bonus Feat
Effect: You gain a bonus feat. This feat may be any feat you have the prerequisites for.
Special: You may select Bonus Feat multiple times. A Fighter may select Bonus Feat as a bonus feat.

Actually, while not superbly useful, this would allow Fighters access to non-[Fighter] feats as their Fighter bonus feats.

Edit:Ninja'd

[ericgrau]

Bonus Feat
Effect: You gain a bonus feat. This feat may be any feat you have the prerequisites for.
Special: You may select Bonus Feat multiple times. A Fighter may select Bonus Feat as a bonus feat.

IIRC there's a way to break that feat. There's an ability that's dependent on how many feats you have. Then you take bonus feat as a bonus feat ad infinitum and break the game.

EDIT: Also double ninja'd.

[Paulus]

this lets fighters spend their special-fighter-only-bonus-feats on any feat they want >_>

A truly sad but true state of of affairs.

[Tengu_temp]

I'd like to point out that this thread is about feats that don't do anything, not weak feats. So dodge or iron will don't qualify, because they're weak but they actually do something.

[Heliomance]

Bonus Feat
Effect: You gain a bonus feat. This feat may be any feat you have the prerequisites for.
Special: You may select Bonus Feat multiple times. A Fighter may select Bonus Feat as a bonus feat.

Four words.

Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle.

Gamebreakage ensues.

[Saintjebus]

[QUOTE=Keshay;7068493]
Here's one: Mobile Spellcasting. Make a DC 20+SL Concentration check to be able to cast a spell and move as a standard action, can not be used with spells witha casting time greater than one standard action. Says nothing about granting additional movement, and since you can always make a move and a standard action anyway, what exactly does this feat do?
QUOTE]

This seems like it would give you an extra move action. By letting you move as part of your standard action to cast your spell.

[AllisterH]

There's an arcane feat that allows you to change visually what a spell looks like.

For example, if you take the feat, your magic missiles can be skulls that chatter as they attack the target.

But this doesn't have ANY actual mechanical effect.

[Jergmo]

Re: Feats that give skill bonuses that are seen as being useless.

These feats are for NPC's. The town guard? Alertness. Village apothecary? Self-sufficient. Etcetera.

[Set]

There's an arcane feat that allows you to change visually what a spell looks like.

For example, if you take the feat, your magic missiles can be skulls that chatter as they attack the target.

But this doesn't have ANY actual mechanical effect.

Oh, it does, it gives some bonus against other people identifying your spells with Spellcraft for counterspelling purposes. Which is, technically, a mechanical effect, even if no one in the history of creation has ever counterspelled anyone... I allow 'spell thematics' as a freebie anyway, and have since 1st edition. If Spiffy the Green Wizard wants to throw green fireballs, go Spiffy, with your green self.

What's kind of ironic is that half of the divination school, and the teleport spell, generally do the same thing as the Investigative Feat. If it's important to the plotline, the DM will give you this information anyway. if it's important to the plotline, the DM will arrange a way for the party to get to the destination. Divination spells and Teleportation spells just save him the trouble (unless you didn't prepare enough teleportation for everyone, in which case he still has to arrange for the rest of the party to fly coach).

If the party has a dedicated Diviner, the DM doesn't have to leave all those half-written messages scrawled in blood, or huddled survivors who can point which way the bad-guys went, or mysterious strangers lying around. But take the Diviner away, and the information the party needs to get to the adventure is *still* going to be available, and that slot can be filled by someone who is doing something useful, that the DM wasn't going to do anyway.

[Faulty]

Wow. Suddenly less useless than I thought it would be.

[BRC]

There's an arcane feat that allows you to change visually what a spell looks like.

For example, if you take the feat, your magic missiles can be skulls that chatter as they attack the target.

But this doesn't have ANY actual mechanical effect.
Only in terms of direct mechanics. I can think of several ways it can be useful for tricking enemies. Or intimidation "Watch as I shoot a Finger of Death (Magic Missle) at my party member and he shrugs it off. That's how powerful we are!"

[MCerberus]

There's an arcane feat that allows you to change visually what a spell looks like.

For example, if you take the feat, your magic missiles can be skulls that chatter as they attack the target.

But this doesn't have ANY actual mechanical effect.

Sounds like grab for roleplaying XP.


Pointless side note: I usually allow such effects allowed without the feat. Usually it works out well, except my players make everything that makes a force effect butterflies. This includes "Wall of Butterflies".

[joeaverage]

Of course, combat skills can also be said to be useless, because the DM will scale up the encounters as the party gets more powerful.

[Boci]

There's an arcane feat that allows you to change visually what a spell looks like.

For example, if you take the feat, your magic missiles can be skulls that chatter as they attack the target.

But this doesn't have ANY actual mechanical effect.

I encounrage my PCs to make use of this feat, even if they do not have it. My NPCs do. Once I defined ray of exhaustion as a phantom rising behind the target and plunging his hand into their chest. The cleric trried to turn undead. I told him there was no use, but he said his character wouldn't have known.

[Tyndmyr]

IIRC there's a way to break that feat. There's an ability that's dependent on how many feats you have. Then you take bonus feat as a bonus feat ad infinitum and break the game.

EDIT: Also double ninja'd.

Take this....many times. Then chaos shuffle.

Edit: Definitely ninja'd.

[Tengu_temp]

There's an arcane feat that allows you to change visually what a spell looks like.

For example, if you take the feat, your magic missiles can be skulls that chatter as they attack the target.

But this doesn't have ANY actual mechanical effect.

Not to mention that all open-minded DMs will let you do that even without that feat.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...even if no one in the history of creation has ever counterspelled anyone...

V casts Disintigrate at you. Click this message to find out why. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html)

[Foryn Gilnith]

V casts Disintigrate at you. Click this message to find out why. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html)

Fireball or Chain Lightning or anything that can force high Concentration checks is a vastly superior "counterspell".

[Milskidasith]

I encounrage my PCs to make use of this feat, even if they do not have it. My NPCs do. Once I defined ray of exhaustion as a phantom rising behind the target and plunging his hand into their chest. The cleric trried to turn undead. I told him there was no use, but he said his character wouldn't have known.

If he had Spellcraft he would have!

[Emy]

There's an arcane feat that allows you to change visually what a spell looks like.

For example, if you take the feat, your magic missiles can be skulls that chatter as they attack the target.

But this doesn't have ANY actual mechanical effect.

Er. That's Spell Thematics. It also boosts your caster level for thematic spells. That's far from useless, mechanically. Add that to the other minor bonus it gives, and the flavor, and it's a solid feat overall.

[Ravens_cry]

We are the Feats who don't do anything,
We just stay on your sheet, and lie around.
And if you ask us, to do anything,
They'll just tell you, we don't do anything.

Well I've never Cleaved a baddie,
And I have never Power Attacked a minion
And I've never Bull Rushed a Mook, up against a wall
And I've never Sprung Attacked
And I've never Combat Reflexed
In fact I've never done anything at all
Cuz. . .

We are the Feats who don't do anything,
We just stay on your sheet, and lie around.
And if you ask us, to do anything,
They'll just tell you, we don't do anything.

(sung to the tune of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaWU1CmrJNc))

[RandomLunatic]

Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blessed_By_Tem-Et-Nu,Sa[/url).

Hippopotami cannot attack you, unless magically compelled. Magical compulsion is likely the only time your typical land-bound adventuring party is going to run into problems with an animal that spends a lot of time in or near water.

If you have turn/rebuke undead, you can rebuke and command hippotami blah blah blah. We all know how useful turning is.

+2 Sacred Bonus to AC against chaotic creatures with the fire subtype. How many opponents is that? Going by the MM, I can find Red Dragons, Brass Dragons, and Magmin. Possibly Salamanders.

Cleric is an additional favored class for you. Who actually uses multiclass XP penalties anyway?

You radiate an aura of law, but if you took it, I am willing to wager you already did anyway. And it imposes a Code of Conduct.

[ericgrau]

Well, a couple in line with the first feat:
Track. If the DM wants you to find something you will.
Skill focus(gather information), etc. Same reason.

Though I don't think a DM should actually do this unless he railroads.

[Yahzi]

Immortality.

Because no PC ever dies of old age, anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blessed_By_Tem-Et-Nu,Sa[/url).

Hippopotami cannot attack you, unless magically compelled. Magical compulsion is likely the only time your typical land-bound adventuring party is going to run into problems with an animal that spends a lot of time in or near water.

If you have turn/rebuke undead, you can rebuke and command hippotami blah blah blah. We all know how useful turning is.

+2 Sacred Bonus to AC against chaotic creatures with the fire subtype. How many opponents is that? Going by the MM, I can find Red Dragons, Brass Dragons, and Magmin. Possibly Salamanders.

Cleric is an additional favored class for you. Who actually uses multiclass XP penalties anyway?

You radiate an aura of law, but if you took it, I am willing to wager you already did anyway. And it imposes a Code of Conduct.
Ah, but the flavour.
Turn Hippopotamuses!:smallbiggrin:
Travelling down a river is common enough, and Hippopotamuses can be quite orneryand have been known to attack boats.
Also, hippos do come on land at night to graze.

[Animefunkmaster]

For the record: Utilizing the 3rd edition Warcraft Campaign setting you can make a fine counterspeller that puts him on par with a blaster in cost effectiveness.

[Tokiko Mima]

I mean, there are plenty of feats that are situationally useless. Wild Talent has no effect if you don't pair it with psionic class levels or other psionic feats.

[SurlySeraph]

Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blessed_By_Tem-Et-Nu,Sa[/url).
...
And it imposes a Code of Conduct.

And if you break the code of conduct, a hippo magically bites you from across dimensions.

[Glyde]

Cooperative Casting = Prereq to PrC - Mage of the Arcane Order...Strikes me as particularly useless aside from getting me into the order.

Cooperative spell should work with Dvati. And if it doesn't then your DM should make it work.

[avr]

While Ride-by Attack has a simple, logical use, didn't the sage once come back with 'You're right, you can't actually use Ride-by Attack to do anything' when questioned about some technicality in the wording?

[Tyndmyr]

Vow of non-violence, or whatever it's called.

D&D without combat is like a pie without sugar.

[Ehra]

Vow of non-violence, or whatever it's called.

D&D without combat is like a pie without sugar.

So you're saying D&D is like a delicious corn pie? I'm going to have to give that a try some time.

[Ravens_cry]

Vow of non-violence, or whatever it's called.

D&D without combat is like a pie without sugar.
Get sweet enough fruit and you don't need no stinking sugar.
Or quiche, no suger there either.
Besides, it does something, a whole lot of something, it's just an option most wouldn't choose.
There is no wrong way to play D&D, or any role playing game for that matter.

[SoD]

Natural spell. I mean, who uses Wildshape, anyways?

...you are joking, right?

[tyckspoon]

Ah, but the flavour.
Turn Hippopotamuses!:smallbiggrin:
Travelling down a river is common enough, and Hippopotamuses can be quite orneryand have been known to attack boats.
Also, hippos do come on land at night to graze.

Exactly. Blessed by Hippo Lady has the benefit of being possibly the most hilarious feat in the entirety of 3.5. You get to engage a hippo in ritual combat for the honor of being honored by the Goddess of Hippos, which gives you the ability to compel hippos to obey you. It's awesome in an utterly ludicrous way.

[bosssmiley]

Most fighter feats (Improved *, Mounted Combat, etc.). A fighter should have these abilities by virtue of his class. Oh wait. I forgot, Muggles can't have nice things. :smallannoyed:

[Radiun]

...you are joking, right?

Not every druid takes Natural Spell; I didn't take it on my level 7 druid (who still needs a level 6 feat)... mind you I have a natural-bonded Dire Bat (such magnificent AC) so I do ok on offense, and don't want to use Wild Shape as my Druid is leaning further into being a plant master who's goal is to turn a war-torn badlands into lush greenery... but yea I, didn't take Natural Spell so :-P

[Myrmex]

Cooperative Casting = Prereq to PrC - Mage of the Arcane Order...Strikes me as particularly useless aside from getting me into the order.

It's brutal with monstrous casters, like goblin or orc adepts.

[John Campbell]

While Ride-by Attack has a simple, logical use, didn't the sage once come back with 'You're right, you can't actually use Ride-by Attack to do anything' when questioned about some technicality in the wording?

I think the problem is that the ride-by has to continue the line of the charge, and a charge has to be directly at the target. Which means that continued line necessarily goes through the target's square, which you can't do, at least not without jumping through other hoops that may not be compatible with making a mounted charge. Or dropping your target with the charge, of course, which I suppose any mounted charger worth their salt really ought to be doing.

In the course of building a mounted ranger, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that they never even thought through, much less playtested, any of the mounted combat rules. They mostly work if you never try doing anything more complicated than a lance charge while mounted on a basic warhorse, but you step outside that simple scenario and you find yourself in weird, uncharted lands awfully quickly.

[Myrmex]

Doesn't a charge go to the closest square, and thanks to DnD math, adjacent squares to a target are equidistant from a certain point?

[Thajocoth]

Get sweet enough fruit and you don't need no stinking sugar.
Or quiche, no suger there either.
Besides, it does something, a whole lot of something, it's just an option most wouldn't choose.
There is no wrong way to play D&D, or any role playing game for that matter.

Fruit contains it's own kind of sugar. Adding fruit is adding sugar. Though, I don't actually eat fruit pie... Only chocolate pudding pie and plain pizza pie for me.

Also, my 3.5e Fighter... Dodge is the only feat of his that I HAVE used... And it's been useful so far. Power Attack? Spring Attack? Nope. Combat Reflexes? Once.

[Thurbane]

Fruit contains it's own kind of sugar. Adding fruit is adding sugar. Though, I don't actually eat fruit pie... Only chocolate pudding pie and plain pizza pie for me.
Shepherd's pie FTW.

[Zen Master]

Not a feat, but I fail to see the use of the healing domain.

Yay - now I get to memorize spells I could just as well spontaneous cast. Hooray! Also, +1 hp healed. Where do I sign up? Thank you, Pelor, for this wonderful benefit from being your loyal servant and spreading your word among faithful and heathen alike.

[Bosh]

Power Attack? Spring Attack? Nope. Combat Reflexes? Once.

Spring attack does suck but abusing power attack and combat reflexes are pretty much the ONLY ways in 3.5ed to make a fighter not suck (charge monkey and trip monkey builds).

[Rainbownaga]

Doesn't a charge go to the closest square, and thanks to DnD math, adjacent squares to a target are equidistant from a certain point?

Isn't that 4th ed where Pythagoras never existed?

But I think you can pull off a rideby attack if you are in the correct orientation; of course that shoots verisimilitude in the head since having to align yourself to some abstract grid to perform a purely martial technique seems... wrong somehow.

[lord_khaine]

Hippopotami cannot attack you, unless magically compelled. Magical compulsion is likely the only time your typical land-bound adventuring party is going to run into problems with an animal that spends a lot of time in or near water.


Actualy Hippopotami are big, strong and very agressive, they kill more people in Afrika than lions.

[SparkMandriller]

Still not a common DnD encounter, I'd wager.

[Radiun]

Still not a common DnD encounter, I'd wager.

Maybe not, but applying the Titanic template to a hippo... well... honestly I think I'd run if I couldn't fly.

[pjackson]

D&D without combat is like a pie without sugar.

You mean like a steak pie, or a meat and potatoes pie, or a pork pie, or a fish pie, or a cottage pie, or a shepherd's pie, or ...

There is nothing unusual about pies not having sugar.

[Myrmex]

Isn't that 4th ed where Pythagoras never existed?

But I think you can pull off a rideby attack if you are in the correct orientation; of course that shoots verisimilitude in the head since having to align yourself to some abstract grid to perform a purely martial technique seems... wrong somehow.

Moving along diagonals costs 1.5 move in 3e, I think.


You mean like a steak pie, or a meat and potatoes pie, or a pork pie, or a fish pie, or a cottage pie, or a shepherd's pie, or ...

There is nothing unusual about pies not having sugar.

Well, they're unusual in that they are pies and lack deliciousness.

[Jalor]

Cooperative Casting = Prereq to PrC - Mage of the Arcane Order...Strikes me as particularly useless aside from getting me into the order.
It's a 0 SLA metamagic feat, which means it decreases the level of an Arcane Thesis'd spell by 1.

[Kaiyanwang]

It's a 0 SLA metamagic feat, which means it decreases the level of an Arcane Thesis'd spell by 1.

No. See the PHII errata, it specifies that AT cannot lower below 0 the adjustment.

RAI wins!


Most fighter feats (Improved *, Mounted Combat, etc.). A fighter should have these abilities by virtue of his class. Oh wait. I forgot, Muggles can't have nice things. :smallannoyed:

Well, that's not the fault of the feats, is the fault of the class...

[Gorbash]

Here's one: Mobile Spellcasting. Make a DC 20+SL Concentration check to be able to cast a spell and move as a standard action, can not be used with spells witha casting time greater than one standard action. Says nothing about granting additional movement, and since you can always make a move and a standard action anyway, what exactly does this feat do?

The feat says that, if you succeed on a check, you can cast a spell and move up to your speed. So, let's assume you ride a Phantom Steed, like any self-respecting wizard would. You move into the range with your awesome speed of 240 ft. Cast a spell, move up to your speed, and give a wave to angry mob on which you just dropped Stinking Cloud, Evard's etc. And with very minor number of spells having a full round casting time, I don't see that as an inconvenience. And that Concentration check is just silly, too. Awesome feat for Wizards, as any wizard guide will tell you. :smallwink:

[paddyfool]

Shepherd's pie FTW.

Heresy! Steak and ale beats all. Also, I don't believe it needs sugar.

[Killer Angel]

Oh please don't get me started. Most of Core falls under this curse. I despise feats which only work for low levels and become dead weight at higher levels. Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Acrobatic, alertness, ... All those little +2 feats are great at low levels, but the higher you get, those +2 suddenly don't matter so much.


Well, they always matter a little... I'd say that you have a 10% higher chance to pass the ST.
A caster throws to the fighter-type a Save-or-suck. Normally he saves on a 19, with Iron will he saves on a 17.
The "+2 to ST" are not a must-have-feat, but I think their impact is always the same, regardless the level.

[Otodetu]

There seem that many players have dm's that won't allow them to fail here, in the first page investigation was dumped as "the dm would give the players the information anyways" i don't know what sort of dm you have been playing under, but i would feel sort of railroaded...

My dm is not one of handouts, and if the party lacks certain abilities then there will be situations where we simply fail, and have to do something else, or come back later after leveling and acquiring a new spell\power\ability that lets us proceed.

[Vangor]

My dm is not one of handouts, and if the party lacks certain abilities then there will be situations where we simply fail, and have to do something else, or come back later after leveling and acquiring a new spell\power\ability that lets us proceed.

No one is saying the DM simply assumes the party is able and succeeds, but more putting important information which otherwise brings the entire campaign to an absolute halt without the feat shouldn't happen. Parties should be able to, in a manner, complete the campaign, though the ability to investigate might be helpful.

The problem is clues in crime scenes and similar are probably done by more mystery campaign oriented DMs which means the feat becomes necessary which further means the abilities of the feat should instead be a function of Search or similar as those would become normal gameplay mechanics.

[Dixieboy]

There seem that many players have dm's that won't allow them to fail here, in the first page investigation was dumped as "the dm would give the players the information anyways" i don't know what sort of dm you have been playing under, but i would feel sort of railroaded...
.

If I was standing in front of an insurmountable wall and the DM blankly stated "You can't get through, sorry dude" i'd feel more railroaded than if said wall had a crack I could sneak through.

Just saying.

[hewhosaysfish]

Diehard doesn't do anything.
You don't pass out because your HP is below the consciousness threshhold of zero... but you do pass out because you HP is less than the non-lethal damage you've taken i.e. zero.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Not a feat, but I fail to see the use of the healing domain.

Yay - now I get to memorize spells I could just as well spontaneous cast. Hooray! Also, +1 hp healed. Where do I sign up? Thank you, Pelor, for this wonderful benefit from being your loyal servant and spreading your word among faithful and heathen alike.

Domain-focused houserules make it useful, but primarily in my experience it functions as a way to get both rebuking and spontaneous healing with a neutral deity, the Healing domain, and PHB2's cleric ACF.

Also, it has Heal, a great non-Cure spell.

[Myou]

Also, it has Heal, a great non-Cure spell.

You never take a domain to get a spell you can already cast. Because you can already cast it.

[Vangor]

Diehard doesn't do anything.
You don't pass out because your HP is below the consciousness threshhold of zero... but you do pass out because you HP is less than the non-lethal damage you've taken i.e. zero.

Automatic stabilization. If not stable, you are incapable of actions and bleed.

[Blackfang108]

Sounds like grab for roleplaying XP.


Pointless side note: I usually allow such effects allowed without the feat. Usually it works out well, except my players make everything that makes a force effect butterflies. This includes "Wall of Butterflies".

One of my DMs turned my Chain Lightning into "Butterfly Sphere." :smallconfused:

It still killed two Vampires.:smalleek::smallconfused::smallannoyed:.. .:smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Automatic stabilization. If not stable, you are incapable of actions and bleed.

Not only this: you can act.
Once I was brought to -5 in an acquatic fight with a demonic elemental (i had boots of flying active).
Instead of die, I fled out of the water (losing an hp), than, (losing another hp), i used the wand of cure.

You'll use very rarely that feat, but when you need it, it saves your life.
It's weak, but not useless.

[Tyndmyr]

It's extremely useful in level 1 pvp fights.

Additional 10 hp vs the 3 provided by toughness.

[Random832]

Not only this: you can act.
Once I was brought to -5 in an acquatic fight with a demonic elemental (i had boots of flying active).
Instead of die, I fled out of the water (losing an hp), than, (losing another hp), i used the wand of cure.

hewhosaysfish was saying that you technically can't because the feat description doesn't negate the nonlethal damage rules (which don't require you to have actually taken nonlethal damage to apply)

[Prime32]

You never take a domain to get a spell you can already cast. Because you can already cast it.However, Spontaneous Domain Casting with the Healing domain is better than spontaneous cure spells.

[Yuki Akuma]

Vow of non-violence, or whatever it's called.

D&D without combat is like a pie without sugar.

So.. a delicious meat pie?

[Killer Angel]

hewhosaysfish was saying that you technically can't because the feat description doesn't negate the nonlethal damage rules (which don't require you to have actually taken nonlethal damage to apply)

I'm not sure I get the point, sorry... :smallfrown:
Anyway, with Diehard, when reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable, and you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. So, the feat does something useful, I think.

[oxinabox]

I don't think it's an uncommon houserule that the healing domain grants
Divine Metamagic Reach (Even if DMM is banned in the game) for healing spells.
Ranged Healing is handy.

The Renewal domain (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/DomainIndex.php?Domain=Renewal)
is much cooler though:, and serves the same purpose:
Granted power: If you fall below 0 hit points, you regain a number of hit points equal to 1d8 + your Charisma modifier. This supernatural ability functions once per day. If an attack brings you to -10 or fewer hit points, you die before this power takes effect.

And it grants you spells that aren't on the cleric list, specifically, charm person, Reincarnate, and Freedom, and polymorph any object.

While it grants remove disease, and the resoration line, those aren't spells you can cast spontainosly and so are worth having an extra slot for.
when you need restoration, you NEED restoration, NOW.
(being without it hurts so much, our dm loved poisons, and we had no cleric. we would walk back into town, all our ability scores down by 2-4 point (sometimes more) 'ok wheres the nearest cleric, i wanna beable to hit things again')

[Tyndmyr]

So.. a delicious meat pie?

A meat pie indeed. One that cannot hold a candle to the deliciousness of Dutch Apple.

[Person_Man]

Vow of non-violence, or whatever it's called.

D&D without combat is like a pie without sugar.

Actually, Vow of Non-Violence basically makes you play D&D like a Saturday morning cartoon superhero. You can still do things in combat and smack enemies around. There are just limits on who you can destroy (undead, constructs, demons) and who you have to incapacitate (pretty much everyone else).

Even if you never physically hurt anyone, you can still buff, heal, use battlefield control, and use other special abilities. For example:

Saint Bertold
Whatever 3/Knight 4/Apostle of Peace 4/Full Caster Progression PrC X

Saint Bertold should only be played by a mature player, interested in a lot of roleplaying, with an all Good group interested in a challenge. Your Vows have all sorts of ridiculous pre-conditions, such as taking all helpless or incapacitated living enemies prisoner instead of killing them. So again, do not play this build unless everyone in your party is on board with it. That said, here’s how it works:

Whatever 3 can be anything with Concentration (prereq for Apostle of Peace) as a class Skill A mix of Paladin, Binder, Incarnate, and/or any Skill Monkey class might be a good idea.

Knight gives you Test of Mettle.

Apostle of Peace (Book of Exalted Deeds) offers ridiculously fast casting, giving you 9th level spells at ECL 16, from good but somewhat limited list. It also gives you Turn Undead, a no Save Calm Emotions, and Censure Demons. Nothing but spells after 4 levels though, so head into any other PrC that offers full caster progression.

The catch is that you need to take Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Poverty.

Vow of Peace and Vow of Non-Violence boosts the Save DCs of all of your abilities and spells (including Test of Mettle), makes weapons break against you, and give you other abilities.

So your combos are rather strait forward. Use Test of Mettle, and enemies will hopelessly attack you, breaking their weapons against you. Your friends can incapacitate those who aren't effected, and then focus on the people who are one at a time. If an enemy isn’t effected by Test of Mettle, you can use Calm Emotions, Skills, or the many spells at your disposal.

[Leon]

Natural spell. I mean, who uses Wildshape, anyways?

Not me
As far as i care its a annoying feature that gets abused far to often leading to people blocking play of druids or limiting them in other ways due the actions of previous players.


Not to mention that all open-minded DMs will let you do that even without that feat.

This is true of all the DMs i have had

[Person_Man]

Mobility and all of the other feats that grant a bonus to your AC when you provoke an AoO from movement are the biggest offenders for me. You can avoid such AoO with a fixed DC Tumble check, or just by not being an idiot about how you move on the battlefield.

[Philaenas]

A meat pie indeed. One that cannot hold a candle to the deliciousness of Dutch Apple.

Why knowst I not the meaning of "Dutch Apple", even though I hail from The Netherlands? Also, pies from the UK usually reign supreme over any type of sugary tart.

Now as to feats... I think any feat will have at least some use in some campaigns and cannot be deemed totally useless :smallsmile:. I helped!

Even those info gathering feats... They will at least make your character shine as the knowledge hoarding dude of the party, as the DM will most likely dispense all info to your character.

[Sinfire Titan]

+1 to Dodge. Because if Tome of Battle or Magic of Incarnum are allowed, the feat is obsolete entirely. Desert Wind Dodge is actually useful for something, and Midnight Dodge can give you up to 5 times the benefit of Dodge.

[Ravens_cry]

+1 to Dodge. Because if Tome of Battle or Magic of Incarnum are allowed, the feat is obsolete entirely. Desert Wind Dodge is actually useful for something, and Midnight Dodge can give you up to 5 times the benefit of Dodge.
Ah, but, in Pathfinder at least, dodge bonuses stack.

[SparkMandriller]

You'd seriously spend a feat on +1ac against one enemy per round?

[Kurald Galain]

The Dodge feat, in my opinion, is worse than doing nothing: it takes up time and bookkeeping for no good reason, and is one of the prime examples for combat delay as players ponder a decision every turn that ultimately isn't important anyway.

[Ozymandias9]

Wow this one got off topic fast. The OP was quite specific: he didn't want bad feats, he wanted feats that have no net effect. Because, for example, they allow you to do things that the DM would allow anyways if they didn't know of the feat.

[Killer Angel]

The Dodge feat, in my opinion, is worse than doing nothing: it takes up time and bookkeeping for no good reason, and is one of the prime examples for combat delay as players ponder a decision every turn that ultimately isn't important anyway.

The best thing in that feat, is that is so awful, that you have TONS of ways to improve it with house rules...
From this pow, Power Attack is SO boring... :smalltongue:


Wow this one got off topic fast. The OP was quite specific: he didn't want bad feats, he wanted feats that have no net effect.

Tha fact is: such feats are not so common, and have been almost all discussed in the first pages...

[Draken]

Special dispensation, from Cityscape. It allows you to carry your weapons inside a city in which you are affiliated to an important organization.

[jiriku]

Wanderer's Diplomacy, from PHB2. This feat allows you to:

1) Locate expensive items in order to purchase them.
2) Communicate via gestures with creatures who do not understand your language.
3) Use Bluff to briefly trick creatures into doing what you want.

All of these are things that players have been doing long before the release of PHB2. This is a feat that lets you do what you were already doing.

[Rixx]

In Pathfinder, Dodge just gives you a permanent +1 Dodge bonus to AC. No need to declare targets or other weirdery.

[SparkMandriller]

A whole 1 ac?

[Ravens_cry]

The middle one may be useful, especially if your DM is rather strict about the language rules.

[Sinfire Titan]

Ah, but, in Pathfinder at least, dodge bonuses stack.

But Dodge bonuses all ready stacked...

[Jayabalard]

Why knowst I not the meaning of "Dutch Apple", even though I hail from The Netherlands? I'd think that you'd probably just call it an "apple pie"

The Dutch part refers to the Pennsylvania Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch) (which are various Germanic peoples iirc). It has a crumb topping (flour, sugar, butter, crumbled across the top).

[Morty]

I'd say that Servant of The Fallen from Lost Empires of Faerun qualifies, but apparently it lets you add a +1 luck bonus to a roll once per day. So though still weak, it does something. Otherwise, it'd be a feat spent on something you can RP, i.e. worshiping a dead god.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Diehard doesn't do anything.
You don't pass out because your HP is below the consciousness threshhold of zero... but you do pass out because you HP is less than the non-lethal damage you've taken i.e. zero.

Either Diehard does nothing, or all these nonsense interpretations based on "zero nonlethal damage" are foolish. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

[Person_Man]

I'd think that you'd probably just call it an "apple pie"

The Dutch part refers to the Pennsylvania Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch) (which are various Germanic peoples iirc). It has a crumb topping (flour, sugar, butter, crumbled across the top).

Interesting side note: The Pennsylvania Dutch are American citizens (although they almost never vote, out of religious conviction) of German (Deutsch) decent, who often still refer to non-Dutch Americans as "the English" (the other major ethnic group which immigrated to the mid-Atlantic American states in the 18th century). Outside of the few communities where they are heavily concentrated, they are known primarily for selling homemade wares and baked products at farmers markets, especially pies. My favorite is shoofly pie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoofly_pie), which is essentially pure molasses and brown sugar, and is generally thought of as disgusting by all of my friends who didn't grow up in the Philly/NY/Jersey area.

They're also the only religious group which has never been involved in an editing war on their Wikipedia page, because most of them shun modern technology (including electricity).

[Myou]

However, Spontaneous Domain Casting with the Healing domain is better than spontaneous cure spells.

Pffff, why, just to get a few spontanious heals? That's a sickening waste of a domain and a feat.

[Dixieboy]

Pffff, why, just to get a few spontanious heals? That's a sickening waste of a domain and a feat.

EXACTLY! :smallsmile:

[Korivan]

We are the Feats who don't do anything,
We just stay on your sheet, and lie around.
And if you ask us, to do anything,
They'll just tell you, we don't do anything.

Well I've never Cleaved a baddie,
And I have never Power Attacked a minion
And I've never Bull Rushed a Mook, up against a wall
And I've never Sprung Attacked
And I've never Combat Reflexed
In fact I've never done anything at all
Cuz. . .

We are the Feats who don't do anything,
We just stay on your sheet, and lie around.
And if you ask us, to do anything,
They'll just tell you, we don't do anything.

(sung to the tune of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaWU1CmrJNc))

Love the poem. But gotta disagree with power attack. It, along with leap attack allows the party's beat stick to dish out damage in the triple digets. And if you take the frenzied beserker route, then you'll dish triple digets all the time.

[Thurbane]

Not only this: you can act.
Once I was brought to -5 in an acquatic fight with a demonic elemental (i had boots of flying active).
Instead of die, I fled out of the water (losing an hp), than, (losing another hp), i used the wand of cure.

You'll use very rarely that feat, but when you need it, it saves your life.
It's weak, but not useless.
Seconded. My Cleric of St Cuthbert got hit by a lightning bolt in our RHoD game, that brought him to exactly -9hp (without fudging!). A Cure on myself next round and I was back in the fight, instead of, well, dead...

[Ravens_cry]

Love the poem. But gotta disagree with power attack. It, along with leap attack allows the party's beat stick to dish out damage in the triple digets. And if you take the frenzied beserker route, then you'll dish triple digets all the time.
That was the point. These are the feats that don't even do what those feats do. And technically it's a song.

[taltamir]

dodge. you gain a +1 AC bonus on a creature you target. I don't see any use for this other than it making me able to get into the master of the nine PRC.

dodge forces you EXPLICITLY state who you are dodging against, every single round! that gets really tired and boring really really fast.
http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20060203.html
http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20060204.html
It is like that actually...

As for pathfinder dodge... yes +1 flat out is ok
As for stacking, all dodge bonuses stacked in core as well... normal armor bonuses do not stack, and are available when flat footed. Dodge AC does stack with other dodge bonuses, but is lost when flat footed.

[The Glyphstone]

Interesting side note: The Pennsylvania Dutch are American citizens (although they almost never vote, out of religious conviction) of German (Deutsch) decent, who often still refer to non-Dutch Americans as "the English" (the other major ethnic group which immigrated to the mid-Atlantic American states in the 18th century). Outside of the few communities where they are heavily concentrated, they are known primarily for selling homemade wares and baked products at farmers markets, especially pies. My favorite is shoofly pie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoofly_pie), which is essentially pure molasses and brown sugar, and is generally thought of as disgusting by all of my friends who didn't grow up in the Philly/NY/Jersey area.

They're also the only religious group which has never been involved in an editing war on their Wikipedia page, because most of them shun modern technology (including electricity).

Not to be confused with the Amish, who while they apparently share a number of similarities, are a different group entirely.

[waterpenguin43]

Feat:
Allows you to use feats.

Is that better?

[deuxhero]

However, Spontaneous Domain Casting with the Healing domain is better than spontaneous cure spells.

How do the 2 differ?

[Ravens_cry]

Feat:
Allows you to use feats.

Is that better?
Does that exist? As in,is it in printed material? If so, that is delightfully circular.
I still like Turning Hippopotamuses better.
I imagine Tem-Et-Nu, the Goddess of Hippos, looking like the ballerina from Fantasias 'Dance of the Hours'

[Kylarra]

How do the 2 differ?
Spont casting of heal, mainly.

[Ravens_cry]

Spont casting of heal, mainly.
Now that is nice. Maybe not worth a domain, but nice.

[Kylarra]

Now that is nice. Maybe not worth a domain, but nice.Also spontaneous regenerate and mass heal, but those are less likely to be relevant.

[Jayngfet]

Not feats but skill tricks feel like this. They let you do stuff with your skills that you probably should be able to do anyway, because you have the skill for it. The most laughable is the one where if you pass a spot check you're able to point out what you saw to the other players.

Endurance I love. Depending on how much the DM brings up environmental hazards (most don't) it can be downright vital. My DM is the kind who brings up environmental hazards.

Skill tricks are more a mixed bag. If the rogue needs another AoO or you're pressed for time and need to bust past a lock they can be great, otherwise, not.

[Foryn Gilnith]

How do the 2 differ?

It doesn't force you to turn undead, technically. In practice, most Healing gods are Good, but there's a few that are Neutral.

[Philaenas]

Interesting side note: The Pennsylvania Dutch are American citizens (although they almost never vote, out of religious conviction) of German (Deutsch) decent, who often still refer to non-Dutch Americans as "the English" (the other major ethnic group which immigrated to the mid-Atlantic American states in the 18th century). Outside of the few communities where they are heavily concentrated, they are known primarily for selling homemade wares and baked products at farmers markets, especially pies. My favorite is shoofly pie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoofly_pie), which is essentially pure molasses and brown sugar, and is generally thought of as disgusting by all of my friends who didn't grow up in the Philly/NY/Jersey area.

They're also the only religious group which has never been involved in an editing war on their Wikipedia page, because most of them shun modern technology (including electricity).

Gotta love that Dutch <--> Deutsch stuff... Interesting info btw!

[Volkov]

It's extremely useful in level 1 pvp fights.

Additional 10 hp vs the 3 provided by toughness.

Toughness just stinks. To match improved toughness, you'd have to spend one feat on toughness every three levels, or every time you get a new bonus feat, disregarding the ones your class already gives you of course.

[taltamir]

Toughness just stinks. To match improved toughness, you'd have to spend one feat on toughness every three levels, or every time you get a new bonus feat, disregarding the ones your class already gives you of course.

it does stink... but it does not "not do anything"

[Volkov]

it does stink... but it does not "not do anything"

I'm not sure if there is a single feat that does absolutely nothing.

[Realms of Chaos]

Let me follow up on that arguement for Die-hard being worthless a couple pages back.

The text of diehard stabilizes you under 0 hit points and states that you do not fall unconscious for having your hit points fall below 0.

That is how most people play it. This is likely RAI. However, due to a second rule, this is not how the feat actually functions.

When your nonlethal damage exceeds your total hit points, you fall unconscious. This is not accounted for either in the diehard feat or in the diehard feat's errata.

Let us take a player with diehard who has been lowered to -1 health and has taken no nonlethal damage.
HP = -1
Nonlethal damage = 0
-1<0
Ergo, the player instantly falls unconscious.

Even if your DM is being nice and says that no nonlethal damage isn't the same as 0 nonlethal damage (which is is when recorded on your character sheet), you should fall unconscious the moment someone hits you with a sap or unarmed strike.

To summerize:
1. Because you cannot have a negative amount of nonlethal damage, a character at negative hit points allways has more nonlethal damage than hit points.
2. A character with more nonlethal damage than hit points instantly falls unconscious.
3. Diehard does nothing to stop this as it only stops you from falling unconscious for a completely different reason. The errata doesn't help you, either.
4. Diehard does, however, automatically stabilize you.
5. This is all RAW, not RAI.

Or, summerized to a greater degree:
1. A creature at negative hit points falls unconscious for 2 reasons. Diehard only stops one of them.

[Boci]

I'm not sure if there is a single feat that does absolutely nothing.

The whole point of this thread is to find them. Feats that allow you to do things DMs would have allowed you to do anyway.

[Volkov]

The whole point of this thread is to find them. Feats that allow you to do things DMs would have allowed you to do anyway.

So he doesn't literally mean a feat that actually does nothing at all? Like this feat I made up on the fly.

The Useless feat.

It does nothing at all, it doesn't even take up a feat slot. So your just wasting your time. This doesn't register as a feat to any ability that uses feats as part of it's effect.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm not sure if there is a single feat that does absolutely nothing.

Semantically, it's impossible for any feat you take to do nothing: They all ways take up a feat slot.

Realistically: The Sacred Vow feat, Willing Deformity, Toughness, and a handful of others actually have no active effects, or at least no noticeable benefits.

BTW, Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt), (Rage Claws), or (Totem Avatar) all beat Toughness. One of them is an automatic Diehard and 10hp, the first is 1 hp/meldshaper level (for a non-shaper it caps at 10), and the first and last both grant more HP if you invest essentia. Hell, even Healing Soul (a feat almost as useless as the Monk's Wholeness of Body class feature) is more useful than Toughness.

[SensFan]

Semantically, it's impossible for any feat you take to do nothing: They all ways take up a feat slot.

Realistically: The Sacred Vow feat, Willing Deformity, Toughness, and a handful of others actually have no active effects, or at least no noticeable benefits.

BTW, Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt), (Rage Claws), or (Totem Avatar) all beat Toughness. One of them is an automatic Diehard and 10hp, the first is 1 hp/meldshaper level (for a non-shaper it caps at 10), and the first and last both grant more HP if you invest essentia. Hell, even Healing Soul (a feat almost as useless as the Monk's Wholeness of Body class feature) is more useful than Toughness.
Toughness has a noticable benefit: 3 HP.
People are arguing that Track has literally no benefit, since a DM will find some way to give you the information in some other way, if you really need that information.

[Delwugor]

dodge. you gain a +1 AC bonus on a creature you target. I don't see any use for this other than it making me able to get into the master of the nine PRC.

Dodge and Toughness are absolutely useless feats to take after 1st level.
I made my own scalable versions of both ("I'm a Tough Guy" and "I'm Hard to Hit") that are worth it - even if they are not perfectly balanced.

[Volkov]

Dodge and Toughness are absolutely useless feats to take after 1st level.
I made my own scalable versions of both ("I'm a Tough Guy" and "I'm Hard to Hit") that are worth it - even if they are not perfectly balanced. '
Improved toughness already functions perfectly for the first one. I'd say improved dodge would be in order, +1 AC per hit dice. Then again, that may render the tarrasque untouchable.

[Keshay]

Incorrect information equating Penslyvania Dutch to various religous groups including the Amish and Mennonites


Gotta love that Dutch <--> Deutsch stuff... Interesting info btw!

Misleading information is misleading.

Yes, that is interesting information, but woefully incorrect. Not all PA Dutch are quilt-making, technology shunning, non-voting tourist attraction anachronisms. The term can apply to any group of German descent that settled in Pennslyvania. (Most commonly it is applied only to the groups that settled from Germany in the 1800's).

Fun fact, a goodly majority of the German population that would make up the Pennslyvania Dutch (1800's) had earlier migrated to Germany from... wait for it... the Netherlands. Just like any other group of people proud of their heritage they continued to identify themselves based on thier place of origin.

Like how I'm Italian-American, my wife's ancestors reffered to themselves as Pensylvania Dutch when they moved there. I love when ignorant morons ask if we have electricity, I really do.

edit: to further clarify, of the 100,000+ Pennslyvania Dutch to settle, only about 2000 were of the variety described by Person Man. Sure thier population has gotten bigger, but its still a fairly insignificant percent of the total number. Also, anyone who does not like Shoofly pie is insane, its delicious.

[Snails]

Toughness has a noticable benefit: 3 HP.
People are arguing that Track has literally no benefit, since a DM will find some way to give you the information in some other way, if you really need that information.

Um, but there is lots of information one can get from Tracking, which can help with things like not getting ambushed. This benefit could be huge for alpha strike optimized parties, who will gain more options for ambushing enemies and perhaps might ambush would be ambushers.

Where Track also becomes powerful is in combination with Scent and an increased movement rate, at which point no enemy can escape without magical assistance. Invisibility becomes much less effective as a hiding tool as well. "Someone is nearby...behind that bush!"

[Foryn Gilnith]

It's feats like Investigate and research that are ridiculous. Needing to suck up a feat just to gain the ability to research is pathetic. Investigate is better, but still bad, as any GM interested in running an investigation game won't force every PC to pay a feat tax simply to do basic clue analysis. Track is different, because a wilderness campaign does not force every player to be able to track to participate. Contrast with Investigate, where if somebody is barred from investigation because they didn't pay the feat tax, a whole massive chunk of playtime and fun is cut off to them.

[Snails]

1. Because you cannot have a negative amount of nonlethal damage, a character at negative hit points always has more nonlethal damage than hit points.

Mathematically speaking, that assumes that the "field of numbers" that can describe non-lethal damage is either:
{....-2, -1, 0, 1, 2, ...}
or
{0, 1, 2, 3, ...}

There is a third logically allowable possibility, what is usually called by mathematicians The Natural Counting Numbers:
{1, 2, 3, 4, ...}

So here the strictly correct answer to the question "Is -2 HP less than the total of no non-lethal damage?" becomes "Undefined. The rules do not cover this scenario. As we have no rule, the DM should decide what seems reasonable."

[Snails]

Now that is nice. Maybe not worth a domain, but nice.

If you are up at 18+ level, I would think that nothing short of a Heal would have value within combat. So this is well worth a feat, under certain conditions.

[taltamir]

the very FIRST POST listed feats that do nothing at all


I'm not talking about Skill Focus (Speak Language), mind you.

I'm talking about Feats such as Investigate from the Eberron Campaign Setting, which expands the utility of your Search skill check to include being able to find 'clues' leading you to the truth/target. But that's already how it works, isn't it? If a DM wants to play a murder mystery campaign, he either doesn't use clues in the story or lets the players find the clue on a "take 20" Search check. The DM will never let the story stop advancing because nobody take the Feat.

It's the same as Research (ECS, which allows you to research info from books and scrolls), Track and Urban Tracking (ECS, also Unearthed Arcana). If it's relevant, the players will succeed in finding the trail anyway; if the DM is having four Fighters rampage around the countryside, he'll make an NPC pointing the way to advance the story.

Most of the levels of the underwhelming PrC called Master Inquisitive suffers from this; Investigate is a prereq, and his main unique class feature is contacting shady NPCs to get info. The DM may put relevant information on those NPCs if he has a Master I. in the party; if there isn't one, the party will find the info - if its relevant - some other way. So at the end of the day, the class feature is completely useless as it doesn't benefit the party in any way.

Thoughts? Other additions?
4 feats and 1 unique PrC ability... all do absolutely nothing.

[Eldariel]

Toughness has a noticable benefit: 3 HP.
People are arguing that Track has literally no benefit, since a DM will find some way to give you the information in some other way, if you really need that information.

I'm actually playing a low-magic game with a Ranger right now, and while I'm only getting used to having Track, I've already gotten to use it in two separate occasions; once to locate a bandit hideout we would've otherwise had no way of locating (given we had killed all its inhabitants), and another time in tracking an intruder upon our campsite. It's not all that useless.

[taltamir]

I'm actually playing a low-magic game with a Ranger right now, and while I'm only getting used to having Track, I've already gotten to use it in two separate occasions; once to locate a bandit hideout we would've otherwise had no way of locating (given we had killed all its inhabitants), and another time in tracking an intruder upon our campsite. It's not all that useless.

sure you would have, you would have hired a guide, or found a clue, or something...
Or are you saying your DM would have not ever let you finish this quest without the track feat?

[sadi]

sure you would have, you would have hired a guide, or found a clue, or something...
Or are you saying your DM would have not ever let you finish this quest without the track feat?

Amazingly enough some DMs don't use the railroad ever. If the players can think of a way to solve a problem they do, and if they don't they just move along to the next plot point in the story.

[Snails]

sure you would have, you would have hired a guide, or found a clue, or something...
Or are you saying your DM would have not ever let you finish this quest without the track feat?

The DM may well have allowed the party to miss some potential loot. If the bandits are all dead, the still living perps will find the party by other means.

[taltamir]

Amazingly enough some DMs don't use the railroad ever. If the players can think of a way to solve a problem they do, and if they don't they just move along to the next plot point in the story.

Allowing more than 1 and exactly 1 feat to solve a problem is not railroading... You could have gotten a scry, or a tracking dog (pet, not animal companion), or anything...

[Eldariel]

sure you would have, you would have hired a guide, or found a clue, or something...
Or are you saying your DM would have not ever let you finish this quest without the track feat?

We were in the middle of wilderness many days from any sort of civilization at the time on both counts; guides were hardly available, and since we are on a schedule (well, a competition the first time and somewhat occupied the second), we don't exactly have the option to take many days to find someone to follow the tracks for us without risking our more critical tasks.

The bandit hideout...we would've missed all the related loot had we not found it (and there was a lot of valuables there) and for the nightly visitor, we would probably not have thought much of it had we not been able to follow the tracks (they ended abruptly) so we would've been missing relevant information about potential threats (we now know that whatever visited that night has some way to move without leaving tracks, but also one it cannot use all the time, which narrows it down a lot and allows us to better plan traps, our own defenses and gives us something to base our questions on).


Sure, we wouldn't have trouble finishing the tasks we've presently accepted without a tracker, but we'd be poorer and less informed. And if we knew beforehand we'd need to do something that required a tracker, of course we could hire one, but we have no way of knowing how reliable the hired person is, how capable he is and we'd still be paying good gold for it.

[sadi]

Allowing more than 1 and exactly 1 feat to solve a problem is not railroading... You could have gotten a scry, or a tracking dog (pet, not animal companion), or anything...

Your second part I read as you are assuming that if the DM puts something there the party has to automatically find it. Not everyone plays that way. If the party is creative they can get by with using something besides track, but if you're any distance from civilization going to town, then managing to find your way back to the spot you want to track from isn't going to be that easy, especially in a low magic game where scry won't be easy to acquire.

[taltamir]

why are you in the middle of nowhere without an NPC guide or a dog? heck can you even feed yourself off of the land?
Oh, and you only need to have track OR be ranger if the tracking DC is more than 10...
Surface Survival DC
Very soft ground 5
Soft ground 10
Firm ground 15
Hard ground 20

Although I admit you are right, it CAN be used... It is just not very necessary...

Speaking of... one of my favorite feats, and yet a total waste... eschew materials.

[Eldariel]

why are you in the middle of nowhere without an NPC guide or a dog? heck can you even feed yourself off of the land?

Well, because we can obviously; I'm a Ranger so we're fine. Being without an NPC guide or dog has many advantages:

1) We are stealthy. Most NPC guides or dogs aren't quite as stealthy as us (though dogs could be, for the moment).
2) We are harder to track. The less character, the higher the DC.
3) We don't need to worry about anyone if waylaid by bandits or such. We're all able to take care of ourselves. If we had an NPC guide, chances are he wouldn't and we'd need to protect him and we'd be truly ****ed if he got himself killed.

And dog...well, there are sharp limitations as to how accurate guidance and what types of information you can dig out of a dog, especially in a no-magic world. But even with magic, while a dog is more useful than a Fighter in this regard, it does not replace a real Ranger.
4) Less mouths to feed.
5) Bigger cut of the treasure.
6) Lesser risk of someone selling us off.


Oh, and you only need to have track OR be ranger if the tracking DC is more than 10...
Surface Survival DC
Very soft ground 5
Soft ground 10
Firm ground 15
Hard ground 20

I know. (Un)fortunately, due to light conditions, weather, many groups hiding their tracks and such, almost all tracks worth following tend to have a DC higher than 10 though.


Speaking of... one of my favorite feats, and yet a total waste... eschew materials.

Agreed there. I only wish it were more useful.

[Lycanthromancer]

Speaking of... one of my favorite feats, and yet a total waste... eschew materials.To be fair, it DOES save you 5 whole gp.

[Zaq]

Shape Soulmeld: Incarnate Avatar is useless on a character without Essentia.

It's arguably also useless on a True Neutral character even with Essentia.

[Sinfire Titan]

Shape Soulmeld: Incarnate Avatar is useless on a character without Essentia.

It's arguably also useless on a True Neutral character even with Essentia.

True.


1. Because you cannot have a negative amount of nonlethal damage, a character at negative hit points always has more nonlethal damage than hit points.


Tell that to Big T. Now.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

To be fair, it DOES save you 5 whole gp.

It helps if your DM likes to steal spell components, but other than that... yeah...

[Godskook]

Shape Soulmeld: Incarnate Avatar is useless on a character without Essentia.

It's arguably also useless on a True Neutral character even with Essentia.

Isn't that like saying that Extra Granted Maneuver is worthless on a character without maneuvers, and arguably useless on warblades and swordsages?

[Zaq]

Isn't that like saying that Extra Granted Maneuver is worthless on a character without maneuvers, and arguably useless on warblades and swordsages?

Not quite. Unlike most soulmelds, Incarnate Avatar doesn't do anything unless you put Essentia into it. Seriously. It has zero effect without Essentia. So putting it on someone without Essentia does absolutely nothing.

Also, it's alignment-based, and since Incarnates (the class that's supposed to have access to it) always have to be Neutral X or X Neutral (where X =/= Neutral), there's no "true neutral" case, so it could be argued to simply not do anything.

[technophile]

Isn't that like saying that Extra Granted Maneuver is worthless on a character without maneuvers, and arguably useless on warblades and swordsages?
Extra Granted Maneuver's prereq is Crusader 1, so neither a character without maneuvers, nor a warblade or swordsage, can even take it.

[oxinabox]

Track, is not useless.

I'm playing an extra grit setting where they players have to hunt for food.
Track is excellent.
sure survival allows you to track, upto a DC of 10 only though.
So They Track deer etc for food.
Without track they could find something, and maybe recognise that wolves have been around.

Now with track: "You knowtice a plathora of tracks; some relitivlyt recent of deer, some you believe are wild boars. you believe there was a bear here some time ago."
Player: "Do i have any idea of how long ago? and how many deer" (i ask what his roll was)
Me: "bear whent there 8 hours ago, there appeared to be 3 or 4 deer"

Then again skill focus survival is proably one of the best feats avaiable, in this setting.

the one of the best feature of druid (prewildshape) is survival +2.

(I've taken away it's spells (though i gave (some) orisons back, when the player took a level of ranger since they both had wild empathy (a feat for a feat double, a class feature for a class feature double) (i don't think there is anyway this is going to over power him, he is bard 1, dfruid 1, ranger 1)

[Milskidasith]

So in your game track is useful because your players are incapable of making a DC 10 survival check to find food?

That doesn't mean the feat is useful, it just means that you houseruled things. If I houseruled that weapon focus: Bar stool let you cast wish on each attack, it would be a good feat... that doesn't mean it is.

[jiriku]

(I've taken away it's spells (though i gave (some) orisons back, when the player took a level of ranger since they both had wild empathy (a feat for a feat double, a class feature for a class feature double) (i don't think there is anyway this is going to over power him, he is bard 1, dfruid 1, ranger 1)

Oh no! He's going fochlucan!

[Snails]

It helps if your DM likes to steal spell components, but other than that... yeah...

The more likely reason to want Eschew Materials is the same reason you might want the Still Spell feat (and perhaps the Silent Spell feat).

It is expensive but a character that specializes in extreme stealth might go this route, e.g. a Sorceror polymorphed into a rat and sneaking into a castle.

[Kaiyanwang]

Track is an amazing feat in the short and the long road, because you survive, find NPC, beasts, have insights on the environment or on a scene, follow somenone.

Track is a resource. I find amazing that people could consider it useless.

[Sliver]

Track is an amazing feat in the short and the long road, because you survive, find NPC, beasts, have insights on the environment or on a scene, follow somenone.

Track is a resource. I find amazing that people could consider it useless.

Because if it wasn't in ghe PHB, people would think it as just a use of some other skill, something that they should be doing anyway without it being a feat. Would you consider being able to use books for knowledge checks feat worthy?