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View Full Version : Dealing with a CHARACTER, not a player



Dust
2009-10-06, 06:07 PM
First of all, I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. Not entirely sure where such a query should go.

I have a problem that I need some outside problem to solve. Namely, how to prevent Character X from making me rip my hair out in aggravation.

The game system is Werewolf: The Apocalypse, but I don't think that really matters - it's an issue that I'm sure you can identify with regardless of the setting.

I'm playing a rough-and-tumble Irish brawler who ended up forced into a leadership role. A new roleplayer to our group decided he wanted to branch out from his helpful norm, and create Character X - the most anti-teamwork, anti-social character imaginable. He went to great lengths upon making his character to ENSURE that he could never physically participate in combat or political matters. Instead, he uses a handful of powers to force people to do what he wants, and uses a charisma-based power to then either A) make them forget this took place or b) forgive him afterwards. While the player is an OK guy as far as I'm concerned, his character is designed to provide no useful function to the party unless it suits his own goals perfectly - goals which happen to run parallel to the rest of us.
Whenever anyone tries to talk to the character, he either mysteriously can't be found or uses a power to shut us up and quickly flees.

I've been told by an NPC to whip him into shape, or else. Stat-wise, my character is smarter, richer and far more physically threatening than Character X, but he's a slippery sort who seems to just be waiting for me to slip up and make an 'error' in dealing with him.

How would you approach this situation IC-ly?

Siosilvar
2009-10-06, 06:11 PM
Short answer: I wouldn't. [approach it in-character]

The players are responsible for the actions of their characters, and since this guy doesn't do this normally, it should be easier to get him to stop.

Rixx
2009-10-06, 06:13 PM
If his powers are charisma-based, he might have to talk to you in order to activate them, yes? Find some way of making yourself unable to hear him while you beat him to a pulp.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-06, 06:17 PM
If his powers are charisma-based, he might have to talk to you in order to activate them, yes? Find some way of making yourself unable to hear him while you beat him to a pulp.

QFT. Make social interaction impossible, go in with a generic pre-scripted "get back in line" commentary, and deliver the lesson.

OOC, I'd probably appeal to the player to try and find a compromise in-character. Since your title implies he's not being too repulsive, you don't want to tell him to subvert his character. But if you wind a little story about how the GM's NPCs are really grilling you to bring this kid back in line, you can find a solution that lets you solve the problem and him still be an antisocial character.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-10-06, 06:19 PM
Punches. Lots and lots of punches.

Jayabalard
2009-10-06, 06:22 PM
decided he wanted to branch out from his helpful norm, and create Character X - the most anti-teamwork, anti-social character imaginable. based on this it sounds like a player issue to me.

d13
2009-10-06, 06:22 PM
Just shout louder than him, as you beat him to a pulp :smallamused: :smallbiggrin:

VanIsleKnight
2009-10-06, 06:25 PM
I kinda like this actually. I don't believe that all players have to necessarily always be on the same side, or even in the same party when they game together. Sure, that's traditionally how it goes, but I find facing down another player character to be more challenging and fun then facing down the GM's characters and such.

Just treat the character like he was a DM controlled NPC. How -would- you go about defeating that? Finding a way to catch him by surprise, gagging him, cutting off his tongue, or even taking him out from long range would probably be best.

Paulus
2009-10-06, 06:31 PM
First of all, I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. Not entirely sure where such a query should go.

I have a problem that I need some outside problem to solve. Namely, how to prevent Character X from making me rip my hair out in aggravation.

The game system is Werewolf: The Apocalypse, but I don't think that really matters - it's an issue that I'm sure you can identify with regardless of the setting.

I'm playing a rough-and-tumble Irish brawler who ended up forced into a leadership role. A new roleplayer to our group decided he wanted to branch out from his helpful norm, and create Character X - the most anti-teamwork, anti-social character imaginable. He went to great lengths upon making his character to ENSURE that he could never physically participate in combat or political matters. Instead, he uses a handful of powers to force people to do what he wants, and uses a charisma-based power to then either A) make them forget this took place or b) forgive him afterwards. While the player is an OK guy as far as I'm concerned, his character is designed to provide no useful function to the party unless it suits his own goals perfectly - goals which happen to run parallel to the rest of us.
Whenever anyone tries to talk to the character, he either mysteriously can't be found or uses a power to shut us up and quickly flees.

I've been told by an NPC to whip him into shape, or else. Stat-wise, my character is smarter, richer and far more physically threatening than Character X, but he's a slippery sort who seems to just be waiting for me to slip up and make an 'error' in dealing with him.

How would you approach this situation IC-ly?

... is... is he even playing with you? I don't get it. If he isn't a part of the party then why bother having him around? If he wants to be a part of the party then he needs to be a part of the party. There is being helpful, and then there is being... ...well... you aren't playing. This seems to me like he is just controlling an NPC for a while.

Where does he go when he isn't with the party? Does your GM have to do side quests for him constantly or does he get to decide how to be around you, near you, interact with you? I mean, if he isn't around you you should be able to loose him pretty easy and then.. well. no more problem is there?

If not, and he MUST be around the party, I'd tell him you don't really think it's working for the party to have him act this way. It just seems... pointless...

but if none of those works, I'd plug your ears. Trap him. and tell him one of the party will unplug their ears to speak to him, if he tries to use his powers to flee or do anything other then listen or talk back, the guy behind him will instantly end him. Or just talk so he has to listen, and if he refuses to listen or tries anything funny, kill him.

If he is causing trouble for your party at a constant rate, your party will either get away from him, or MAKE him get away. Therefore, being unhelpful is pointless. I can understand being distant, and even being unable to help much in combat, or unable to help much in RP political whatever... but to be unhelpful period is... just pointless, there is no use having him in the game.

Also, why are you stressing out if he isn't a part of your group? why are NPC's telling you to take care of him? Make it clear you have nothing to do with him and he is really just 'whatever' and then go on your merry way? Who cares?

So much pointlessness!

Dust
2009-10-06, 06:56 PM
The player wants to be part of the game, of course, but he did intentionally build a character who wasn't designed to be part of a group. I don't know where he goes when he's not with us - I expect he's backstabbing us/working against us in some fashion.

I can't kill or maim the character, because he hasn't done anything whatsoever worth warranting these actions...to my knowledge. He's just patentedly unhelpful and avoids confrontation about it like the plague. He's not causing trouble yet.

Nor am I stressing out just yet. I'd just like to nip this little fiasco in the bud before it becomes the standard behavioral pattern for the character. I would enjoy coming to the game less if this continued.

The NPCs are insisting I 'fix him' because that's how Werewolf works - he was yanked into a new sort of world, and he basically needs to be treated like a child until he gets his **** figured out. Trouble is, I think he's playing us.

Paulus
2009-10-06, 07:05 PM
The player wants to be part of the game, of course, but he did intentionally build a character who wasn't designed to be part of a group. I don't know where he goes when he's not with us - I expect he's backstabbing us/working against us in some fashion.

I can't kill or maim the character, because he hasn't done anything whatsoever worth warranting these actions...to my knowledge. He's just patentedly unhelpful and avoids confrontation about it like the plague. He's not causing trouble yet.

Nor am I stressing out just yet. I'd just like to nip this little fiasco in the bud before it becomes the standard behavioral pattern for the character. I would enjoy coming to the game less if this continued.

The NPCs are insisting I 'fix him' because that's how Werewolf works - he was yanked into a new sort of world, and he basically needs to be treated like a child until he gets his **** figured out. Trouble is, I think he's playing us.

First off. This is a player problem. If the way a player players his character will make you not want to come o games... Second, tell the player this. Third:

Again why does your group have to "fix him or else"? Why should you have anything more to do with him? And why can't you kill him? If he is supposedly your problem, solve your problem.

and if his unhelpfulness is an actual detriment to your party, or does it have no affect on the party? If it has no affect, who cares? If it is detrimental. Solve your problem. It sounds detrimental because you character for some reason is being held responsible for his actions. If this were not the case you would have nothing to do with him other then worrying about him as just another enemy. And if he is just another enemy. He is a problem. if he is a problem.

Solve your problem.

starwoof
2009-10-06, 07:11 PM
Next time you see him, shoot him in the leg.

That'll learn 'im.

Gnaeus
2009-10-06, 07:21 PM
WtA is a military game. You are the leader of your squad. That is why NPCs are giving you dreck about your insolent recruit.

It is perfectly reasonable IC for him to act out after being essentially drafted. Tough. Next time that he shows up, have your entire team jump him. Stick a gag in his mouth. Explain to him that he is under orders, and he is not allowed to leave any more...ever. He is not a free agent, he is in your pack. (if he isn't in your pack, kill him). If he has a problem with this, he can challenge your leadership at any time. As the challenged party, you get to set the terms, and explain to him that it will be a straight physical fight with no powers in play, so if he wants a good beating, to step right up.

BobVosh
2009-10-06, 07:22 PM
Again why does your group have to "fix him or else"? Why should you have anything more to do with him? And why can't you kill him? If he is supposedly your problem, solve your problem.

and if his unhelpfulness is an actual detriment to your party, or does it have no affect on the party? If it has no affect, who cares? If it is detrimental. Solve your problem. It sounds detrimental because you character for some reason is being held responsible for his actions. If this were not the case you would have nothing to do with him other then worrying about him as just another enemy. And if he is just another enemy. He is a problem. if he is a problem.

Solve your problem.

This.

Also how can he be unhelpful if he is extreme control?

cZak
2009-10-06, 07:28 PM
Very interesting. The player seems to have developed the complete antithesis of a Werewolf: the Apocalypse themed character.

So during the game, the character does... what? If he refuses to engage in combat or the social activities, what effect does he have on the game? You mention he uses powers to get others to do his bidding; are these strictly for personal benefit? Does he use them on Pc's? I don't know of many people who appreciate that when they eventually realize what happened. :smallfurious:

I'd suggest coordinating with the 'active' party members to accomplish things for rewards that he would not get a piece of because of his non-participant style of playing.
When he gets ambushed and pummeled for his anti-social actions (the Npc who said to 'fix him'), he may regret not having some friends around to have watched his back.

cZak



Fools are made to suffer, not to be suffered

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-06, 07:56 PM
This is Sparta Werewolf.

As has been suggested, give him a chance to reform (doing The Talk, as it were) and, if the player refuses to change his character when given a chance, rip his throat out.

Then do something about the character - he'll probably become an NPC or something :smallamused:
Seriously - the player may not have realized how damaging his actions were to the group when he started, but has enough fidelity to the character concept that he won't change. Give him an out - a "shape up or ship out" chew-out from his Alpha; it is a plausible reason for him to change his character's actions.

If he still refuses, you should kill him for insubordination and pusillanimous behavior in the face of the enemy. It's what a Werewolf would do... well, in oWoD, anyhow.

Of course, if you want to be extra-charitable, talk to the player OOC beforehand and work out a believable scene for his character change. If he refuses, be prepared to kill him. Or do whatever the maximum punishment is - something permanent.

Remember: ripping out throats is all a part of the democratic process (http://www.webcomicsnation.com/memberimages/sh091002its_wonderful.jpg)

It's from Skin Horse. Read it. Now. (http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/skinhorse/series.php?view=archive&chapter=25034)

Dixieboy
2009-10-06, 08:08 PM
Punches. Lots and lots of punches.

Bad idea, while punching in sufficient volumes would certainly solve the problem, it's very hard for a werewolf to stop again once it has begun the punching process.

tcrudisi
2009-10-06, 10:33 PM
I have a couple of questions.

You mention that you are in a leadership position, but you never said you were the pack alpha. Heck, you never even said this guy was in your pack. Is he in your pack and are you the alpha? What tribe, breed, and auspice are you? (Yes, this can very much make a difference. How a Lupus Ahroun Red Talon deals with this will usually be quite different than a Homid Ragabash Bone Gnawer.) What kind of NPC's are telling you to get him under control (ie - are they higher rank than you)?

Normally I would agree with you completely about this being true for any system, but Werewolf is sorta the exception. It's so pack-oriented that teamwork is forced into it. Heck, even D&D 4e isn't as much about teamwork as Werewolf is. Of course, if he's not in your pack, this changes things.

Dust
2009-10-07, 12:26 AM
As a direct set of answers for the person above me:

I'm a rank two Homid Fianna Ahroun that was made pack Alpha as a direct order from the Caern elders, and the trouble character is a Homid Ragabash 'cub' who has access to rank two gifts because he used to be a Shadow Lord before essentially being kicked out of his tribe.

The game takes place in New Orleans and is run by Shadow Lords, who are the ones that put the burden on me without explaining why.

Loki Eremes
2009-10-07, 01:03 AM
WtA is a military game. You are the leader of your squad. That is why NPCs are giving you dreck about your insolent recruit.

It is perfectly reasonable IC for him to act out after being essentially drafted. Tough. Next time that he shows up, have your entire team jump him. Stick a gag in his mouth. Explain to him that he is under orders, and he is not allowed to leave any more...ever. He is not a free agent, he is in your pack. (if he isn't in your pack, kill him). If he has a problem with this, he can challenge your leadership at any time. As the challenged party, you get to set the terms, and explain to him that it will be a straight physical fight with no powers in play, so if he wants a good beating, to step right up.


AMEN!

if a player plays that sort of PC, dont be afraid of killing it, just as he is getting fun of it, you should get fun of it too.

let me tell you a story:
few months ago i played a Lawfull Neutral Paladin of St Cuthbert. (yeah D&D)
The DM asked me to form a group of people and become their leader.
Obviously i picked up the other PCs, and 2 NPC: a lancer and a bowman.
Lancer was..OK, i think he lasted 2 fights. But the real problem was the bowman. He appeared in the last moment killed an enemy and took the glory, rescued people, and took the glory again... He was a ****ing jackass and all the party hated him so ****ing much. [the DM Obviously loved joking with us, cause we all were Lawfull neutral or good characters]
My Paladin mount was a Gryphon. Do you know where it landed once? and when i say LANDED i mean GRAVITY LANDED.
no more NPC and my character was Lawfull good and a paladin on top of that, but it was a simple accident :belkar:

You have unlimited ways to deal with that PC (let aside the player)
if he is that annoying, kill him for Christ's sake!!!

drakir_nosslin
2009-10-07, 01:12 AM
Not that I've been playing much Werewolf, but if he behaves like a idiot, treat him like one. Lock him up in a basement somewhere and let him sit there for the rest of the session, if he escapes, hunt him down, drag him back, beat him to a pulp and lock him up again, but this time with silver manacles or something like it!
This might even work on the character as well...

tcrudisi
2009-10-07, 01:12 AM
Ugh. I was really hoping you were going to say something other than "he's a Shadow Lord homid Ragabash." Why? Because being a Ragabash, he can get away with more crap. It's in their job description. Being a homid, he's more inclined to be deceitful than being born a Lupus, and Shadow Lords are just known for being manipulative jerks. In fact, when you were describing the problem character, I was thinking, "it sounds like a typical homid Ragabash Shadow Lord."

Of course, he was KICKED OUT by the friggin' Shadow Lords? WTF? Okay, he did something pretty darn big to get kicked out of the Shadow Lord tribe.

Is dropping him in the river in Erebus an option? If so, it's sorta win/win. Either the DM rules that he's going to be in there for a very long time (so the guy creates a new character), or the player "atones" for his being a jerk and changes (and therefore gets out relatively quickly). It's not as though he can lie to the silver river or the Lady Charyss, ya know? I like this idea because it's obvious the character has some serious issues.

Also, you do outrank him. I wouldn't hesitate to pull rank. Declare war-time (you are an Ahroun, after all) and the first time he disobeys an order, have your pack Philodox cite the Litany and rip his throat out or cripple him in some way. Even better, out-Ragabash him! Have another Ragabash waiting in the wings with a combat simulation ready to go at a moments notice. Find a way to remain in direct contact with him. When things start to go awry, the combat simulation begins (gunfire or spirits he's bribed, etc), and that puts you into battle. If he's still not acting in the best interest of the pack, that gives you everything you need to cleanse this guy of his obvious Wyrm-taint.

Or just have another Ragabash (or yourself, but I'm big on "teaching situations" which is what Ragabash do -- yeah, I play Ragabash primarily) set up the combat simulation. You said this guy couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag. Make it sort of an initiation -- fight your way out of this situation. Then have the good Ragabash beat him down. Oh darn, accidents happen. I swear I didn't see him try to surrender! Curse the frenzy!

Of course, now I'm talking about ways to kill him. I still like the idea about dropping him in a river in Erebus.

random11
2009-10-07, 07:55 AM
Does your character know he is being manipulated by magic?

If he does, getting some items, spells or NPC help to negate the magic is a good start.
After that, they can be pissed off at the character without him being able to dodge it, and he will have to choose between cooperation or going separate ways.

If the character doesn't know he is being manipulated, I think it is obvious that this cannot be solved from this angle.
A character cannot solve a problem if he doesn't know it exists.

Krrth
2009-10-07, 08:08 AM
As a direct set of answers for the person above me:

I'm a rank two Homid Fianna Ahroun that was made pack Alpha as a direct order from the Caern elders, and the trouble character is a Homid Ragabash 'cub' who has access to rank two gifts because he used to be a Shadow Lord before essentially being kicked out of his tribe.

The game takes place in New Orleans and is run by Shadow Lords, who are the ones that put the burden on me without explaining why.

Look, this is Werewolf. Your pack has a totem, correct? It can't be very happy about what is going on. It's well within a totems power to say "NO".

For that matter, being a Ragabash means tricks and jokes, not out and out deceit and control. Every time he makes someone do something rather than trick them into it they are violating their role.

ondonaflash
2009-10-07, 10:33 AM
Remember, player imprisonment is worse than player death. A dead character can be revived. A character who is trapped somewhere has to sit out while the others work to save him.

jiriku
2009-10-07, 12:49 PM
You might go OOC to the player and say "hey, I'm having trouble figuring out how my character can satisfy these NPCs who are upset with your character. What would be a cool way for us to deal with this together?"

If he's a decent guy, you can probably get him on board to work with you to build some cool, dramatic scene to resolve the problem between your characters.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-07, 01:38 PM
I agree with everyone else; this is a player problem. However, in Werewolf, you've got some options.

One of them is to challenge him. He's screwing up, acting without Honor, and so your character (who I'm betting is an Ahroun) isn't going to put up with this from packmates... even the Ragabash (which is what I'm betting he is). Challenge him, kick his butt, and tell him to toe the line.

In the meantime, also make sure that he knows what he CAN do. He's not going to be able to rage with you, but a Ragabash isn't helpless.

Random832
2009-10-07, 01:58 PM
I'm not sure I agree with it being a player problem. It's all too easy to come at everything from a "the PCs are an adventuring party" angle, which isn't necessarily appropriate to non-D&D games, and which puts more constraints on players (i.e. they shouldn't be working against each other) than ought necessarily to be present in othertypes of games.

Now, that's not to say that this necessarily shouldn't be coordinated with the other player.

toturi
2009-10-08, 02:16 AM
The problem with such characters is you never know whether you have been manipulated into the situation, even if you think you are the one who wanted to do so. So in trying to use the Litany, he might just be able to do without doing and then turn the tables on you. Or he might have a combat ace up his sleeve and rip you up and make you look weak. Perhaps this is his plan. If you are trying to pin him down, he simply avoids you. In order to corner him, you have to think and act like him, which is perhaps what he wants.

Playing such characters you make plans within plans and schemes within schemes, you are playing poker while the rest are in a boxing match. You are the chessmaster, the rest of the pack is just your pawns, even the pack leader who is afterall like the king just another piece. With so many possibilities, it is nearly impossible to humanly predict what kind of game you are playing. Always have a backup plan and an escape route and have backups to the backup.

Farlion
2009-10-08, 02:30 AM
I actually like his idea, of making a character who solves problems differently and isn't really an ally, but just someone who has parallel goals. I can imagine it being a little tricky for the DM.

As far as I interpret this, you would not object with his character, if he weren't deliberatly pissing off important NPCs and the rest of your pack. But somehow you hesitate to dispatch with him, or he somehow manages to always get away using some tricks (which in my eyes is actually pretty cool :smallbiggrin:)

I would talk to the player, tell him: " I really like your character theme, it's really something different, but it's also very difficult for us, to not just dispatch you, because you are really getting into our way. Why not play your character as you did before, but not give us more reasons to kill you? I think this could be very fruitful to have a socially adept character".

Cheers,
Farlion

taltamir
2009-10-08, 03:48 AM
talk to the dm, this player, and other players about what is an appropriate CHARACTER for a COOPERATIVE game...
Sure the PLAYER is a nice guy, but his CHARACTER experiment is derailing things. Some characters just don't work for cooperative play.

it is the whole "ok you do not steal while the paladin is in the room, and you never notice that your friend is a theif, got that?" rule.

And never, ever, use / allow any type of mind control / "social powers" on other PLAYERS, EVER!

or uses a power to shut us up and quickly flees.
... absolutely NO on that one... although not the worst I have heard (multiple accounts of someone's character getting raped by other's "in game")

Lets see how "ok guy" he is when you bring his behavior up as an issue