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Twilight Jack
2009-10-07, 10:49 AM
I'm looking to run a cyberpunk style game for my group. We've played before using the Cyberpunk 2020 system, which has plenty of material but some serious issues, rules-wise. I've got all the old 2020 books, and am thinking about a bottom-up houseruling bonanza, but if there is another system I should consider, I'd love to hear about it.

I've heard great things about Shadowrun, but I don't want to be mixing fantasy with my gritty sci-fi. How is Shadowrun if you strip all the fantasy elements out? Does it break down the system in a nasty way?

What other systems work well for the genre? I'm going for a When Gravity Fails meets Burn Notice kind of vibe. I want cool tech and fun toys, but one of the things that burns me on Cyberpunk 2020 is the way that tech can consume the story to the point where a cyberarm is the new +3 sword. I'd rather have a flexible and comprehensive system than a catalogue of nifty cybernetics and neuralwarez for the players to flip through and make shopping lists.

JellyPooga
2009-10-07, 11:10 AM
Shadowrun rules can ealisy be adapted to not include the fantasy elements...you just throw them out the window and you're left with a pure cyberpunk system (ignoring the setting material, of course).

GURPS, predictably, is an option. It's a very specialised type of play though; balanced but brutal and it can bog down if you don't choose to omit some of the rules.

Traveller (by Mongoose) is a relatively rules light game that can be aimed at a Cyberpunk setting and hit pretty close to the mark. It's definitely a game that is focused more on what you're doing and how than on the nitty gritty of the rules IMO (kind of the opposite of GURPS in a way). Coll toys in Traveller aren't separated by what they specifically do, but by what they generally do: if an enhancement boosts your Strength, for example, the effect is the same whether it's described as a flesh-graft, augmented cyberarm or whatever you want to call it...the game provides the mechanic, you provide the details. The same could be said for the system as a whole really...

Mechwarrior is another one than can be fairly easily adapted, though you might have to do a bit of work on the Life Paths to make them fit your game. Aside from that, the system itself is a happy balance of detail and abstraction (to my mind) and is sufficiently brutal to stop players doing silly things. Tech is woefully bad on a personal level (prosthetic limbs, for example, start in the hooks and pegs range and work their way up to fully functional but no better than it was when it was flesh and blood). It shouldn't, however, take a lot to introduce cool toys; just port a few things over from CP2020 and you're golden.

Croverus
2009-10-07, 11:17 AM
I just use D20 Modern witht eh Future and Cyberspace expansion books.

Twilight Jack
2009-10-07, 11:23 AM
I just use D20 Modern witht eh Future and Cyberspace expansion books.

Our group's been playing D&D for awhile and is ready to take a break from D20 for a bit. I'd considered it, but I don't think my players would want to go that route.

Yora
2009-10-07, 11:23 AM
And I like to add the True20 health system and classes to that.

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-07, 11:25 AM
All Flesh Must Be Eaten!

With All Tomorrow's Zombies added.

And without zombies.

Knaight
2009-10-07, 11:26 AM
The Fudge 10th anniversary edition book has some nice Cyberpunk stuff, and its a generic system. The free version online doesn't, but there are add-on's that do that.

Twilight Jack
2009-10-07, 11:30 AM
Shadowrun rules can ealisy be adapted to not include the fantasy elements...you just throw them out the window and you're left with a pure cyberpunk system (ignoring the setting material, of course).

GURPS, predictably, is an option. It's a very specialised type of play though; balanced but brutal and it can bog down if you don't choose to omit some of the rules.

Traveller (by Mongoose) is a relatively rules light game that can be aimed at a Cyberpunk setting and hit pretty close to the mark. It's definitely a game that is focused more on what you're doing and how than on the nitty gritty of the rules IMO (kind of the opposite of GURPS in a way). Coll toys in Traveller aren't separated by what they specifically do, but by what they generally do: if an enhancement boosts your Strength, for example, the effect is the same whether it's described as a flesh-graft, augmented cyberarm or whatever you want to call it...the game provides the mechanic, you provide the details. The same could be said for the system as a whole really...

Mechwarrior is another one than can be fairly easily adapted, though you might have to do a bit of work on the Life Paths to make them fit your game. Aside from that, the system itself is a happy balance of detail and abstraction (to my mind) and is sufficiently brutal to stop players doing silly things. Tech is woefully bad on a personal level (prosthetic limbs, for example, start in the hooks and pegs range and work their way up to fully functional but no better than it was when it was flesh and blood). It shouldn't, however, take a lot to introduce cool toys; just port a few things over from CP2020 and you're golden.

I'll definitely take a look at Traveler. I've heard some good things before.

My biggest problem with GURPS is that the rules are SO generic that they feel sort of lifeless to me, YMMV. Interestingly, I don't have that problem with Unisystem.

How is Mechwarrior (or any of these games) in a firefight between folks outside of mechs? I'm looking for a fast, elegant system that emphasizes movement and cover, and where perfect headshots aren't a dime a dozen (another of my issues with Cyberpunk 2020).

Twilight Jack
2009-10-07, 11:34 AM
All Flesh Must Be Eaten!

With All Tomorrow's Zombies added.

And without zombies.

I've been thinking about using AFMBE as a baseline. I really like Unisystem, but I'd have to toy about with the firearm combat rules. All Tomorrow's Zombies is a sourcebook for zombie cyberpunk?

Kurald Galain
2009-10-07, 11:48 AM
The Whitewolf system works surprisingly well for Cyberpunk, assuming you play as mortals rather than as kindred, garou or whatever. The Technocracy-related books have some techy suggestions.

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-07, 11:57 AM
I've been thinking about using AFMBE as a baseline. I really like Unisystem, but I'd have to toy about with the firearm combat rules. All Tomorrow's Zombies is a sourcebook for zombie cyberpunk?

Zombie future games. Including post-apocalyptic, space opera and cyberpunk.

Twilight Jack
2009-10-07, 12:16 PM
The Whitewolf system works surprisingly well for Cyberpunk, assuming you play as mortals rather than as kindred, garou or whatever. The Technocracy-related books have some techy suggestions.

Old WoD or New? I love the nWoD for what it is, but I don't think its resolution mechanic supports the kinds of scenes I envision, especially in combat.

Because it is at its heart a horror system, and because most of the PC critters have a means of healing their injuries, nWoD combat tends to focus on injury over accuracy as your measure of success. If I'm a competent combatant with 3 Dexterity and 3 firearms, wielding a .45 ACP, I'm rolling 9 dice for each shot. Modify it down by three for range and cover, and I'm still rolling six. I've a better than even chance of hitting my target every time I pull the trigger. The only question is whether I'll inflict enough injury to put that target down. If my opponent is similarly skilled, he'll be hitting me with most of his shots too. Our gunfight is now a slugfest in which the goal is to out-damage my opponent while mitigating or finding a way to soak up the injuries being done to me every round that combat continues.

This works fine for a horror game wherein the PCs are supernaturally tough, but I'm not loving it for cyberpunk. The problem with getting shot every time a gun is drawn is that you very quickly lose the shock of, "Oh sh**! I've been shot!" I'd prefer a system where getting shot is not such a foregone conclusion, but where even a single bullet impacting your soft meaty parts is a seriously bad day.

If you're talking about oWoD (and your floating of the terms "garou" and "Technocracy" do suggest that), then the problem is different. I just don't like having to pick up 4 seperate handfulls of dice every time I want to resolve an attack. I loved oWoD back in the day, but I'm so done with the buckets o' dice resolution mechanic.

JellyPooga
2009-10-07, 12:16 PM
How is Mechwarrior (or any of these games) in a firefight between folks outside of mechs? I'm looking for a fast, elegant system that emphasizes movement and cover, and where perfect headshots aren't a dime a dozen (another of my issues with Cyberpunk 2020).

Mechwarrior doesn't actually concern itself with Mech Combat at all really...it's all about life outside the cockpit! The system is of the "roll dice, add modifiers, hit target number" variety. Once you've got the hang of how the modifiers work, it's pretty straight forward. Having said that, there are modifiers for everything; light level, cover, range, etc. so at first, the system seems a little daunting. When you consider that not every fight will involve every modifier though, it all comes into focus. If you're still worried about it, they provide you with some handy cheat sheets that list everything you need to know on 2 A4 pages! I like the MW system...it's detailed enough to give a real sense of verisimilitude and allows for neat tricks like head shots (if you want to use the optional Hit Location rules) and such, but it's very much grounded in reality; pistol head-shots at long range are hard even for an expert gun-fighter and if you get shot and it hurts like a female dog and stops you from acting as well as you would normally on your next turn...it's also going to take you a good long while to heal that hole in your chest. At the same time the skill system is pretty streamlined (roll+mod to hit target number again) and easy to use. Personally, I like it.

Traveller is a much easier system, but a lot more abstract. Like I say, the game provides the effect, you provide the details. The wound system is quite intuitive though...you get wounded and it comes of of one of your physical stats. One of your physical stats hits 0, you're unconscious. Two hit 0, you're crippled. Three? Well, I'm sure you can guess. This also means that a single powerful attack (like a .50 round to the chest) is more effective at putting someone down quickly that several lighter-hitting attacks (like a few 9mm flesh-wounds).

GURPS is an amazing system once you're past character creation. Everything is adjudicated by "3d6, roll under" except for damage. It's that simple. However, like you say, unless you pick up one of the setting books, breathing life into a GURPS game can be tricky.

I don't have a lot of experience with Shadowrun (read: none), I've just read the rules, but it seems quite simple...you're better off asking someone else about that though.

Twilight Jack
2009-10-07, 12:25 PM
Zombie future games. Including post-apocalyptic, space opera and cyberpunk.

I'll take a look. I'll have to playtest a few firefights in All Flesh to see what that looks like. It's one thing to lay down a few shotgun rounds at a hoard of shambling corpses; it's another to trade bullets from across a street with cover, maneuvering, and suppressive fire support from a buddy with a .50 Browning on the roof of the parking garage a half block down.

Jayabalard
2009-10-07, 12:25 PM
I'd definitely go with GURPS Cyberpunk... it's so realistic that the Secret service raided (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_Games,_Inc._v._United_States_Secret_ Service) Steve Jackson Games and confiscated all of the materials for it.


To this day, the GURPS Cyberpunk book lists "Unsolicited Comments: The United States Secret Service" on its credits page.

Twilight Jack
2009-10-07, 12:28 PM
I'd definitely go with GURPS Cyberpunk... it's so realistic that the Secret service raided Steve Jackson Games and confiscated all of the materials for it.

*Sigh* I didn't like GURPS when I played it a bit in the 90s, but I suppose I'm now obligated to give it another chance. What, if anything, has changed since '96?

Jayabalard
2009-10-07, 12:41 PM
*Sigh* I didn't like GURPS when I played it a bit in the 90s, but I suppose I'm now obligated to give it another chance. What, if anything, has changed since '96?not a whole lot... it really depends on if your problem with "blandness" is from the game mechanics in specific (which hasn't changed much) or just from the universal-ness of the system in general.

If it's the former, well, none of that has changed all that much... there may not be much point in trying it again.

If it's the latter, keep in mind that the specific genre books (like cyberpunk, fantasy, time travel, etc) tend to be pretty heavily weighted toward information about the genre instead of mechanics, so they generally come across as far less bland than the core system.

Regardless of what system you wind up using, it might be worth checking out GURPS Cyberpunk... as I recall, it's a pretty good source for information about the genre, so it can be a useful resource for any cyberpunk game.

Crow
2009-10-07, 12:55 PM
I would use shadowrun 3rd edition and just throw out the fantasy elements and plug it into a setting of your choosing.

I'd skip 4th, as you don't have to drill a hole in your head to get into the matrix. The sacrificing of humanity to bond with technology is a crucial element in the cyberpunk genre that is grossly downplayed in 4th edition.

jmbrown
2009-10-07, 01:36 PM
*Sigh* I didn't like GURPS when I played it a bit in the 90s, but I suppose I'm now obligated to give it another chance. What, if anything, has changed since '96?

Rule wise, quite a bit. They consolidated all the dead weight skills and tightened everything up. The current ruleset is rock solid IMO with the only thing being suspect is the default fear rules.

Keep in mind that GURPS, as a universal system, means that what you put in is what you get out. It's harsh on GMs because 90% of the work has to come from the DM. With that said, the rules are rock solid. I can convert any system and any idea into a playable form pretty damn quick because it covers a wide range of material.

Twilight Jack
2009-10-07, 01:42 PM
Rule wise, quite a bit. They consolidated all the dead weight skills and tightened everything up. The current ruleset is rock solid IMO with the only thing being suspect is the default fear rules.

Keep in mind that GURPS, as a universal system, means that what you put in is what you get out. It's harsh on GMs because 90% of the work has to come from the DM. With that said, the rules are rock solid. I can convert any system and any idea into a playable form pretty damn quick because it covers a wide range of material.

I'll have to take another look at GURPS then. Thanks.

jmbrown
2009-10-07, 02:13 PM
I'll have to take another look at GURPS then. Thanks.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

GURPS Cyberpunk is out of print but they've got the ebook for $8. The errata contains updates for 4th edition. GURPS setting books for the most part are light on rules and heavy on fluff. The idea is to present you with dozens of ideas to shape your game while conforming to the GURPS rules. Personally I like it because the books cover an immense amount of ground (for example, GURPS Space 4E extensively covers nearly every form of interstellar travel in science fiction literature and includes detailed rules for generating entire galaxies) but quick reference is not one of GURPS strengths which is why so much work falls on the GM's shoulders.

FunnyMattress
2009-10-07, 04:25 PM
This works fine for a horror game wherein the PCs are supernaturally tough, but I'm not loving it for cyberpunk. The problem with getting shot every time a gun is drawn is that you very quickly lose the shock of, "Oh sh**! I've been shot!" I'd prefer a system where getting shot is not such a foregone conclusion, but where even a single bullet impacting your soft meaty parts is a seriously bad day.

I know you said you're done with the dice-pool system of the WoD, but I'd just like to throw out an easy houerule that at least partially remedies this. Weapons to automatic damage. In your example, instead of having 6 dice in your pool, you'd have 3 (Dex+Firearms-Range and Cover). But whenever you rolled successes, you'd add the 3 damage from the .45 to it. So, the least damage you could do is 4, which is over half of what an average human could take. If you really wanna make combat deadlier, double the time it takes to recover from wounds.

Obviously, this works best with straight-up Mortals.

Twilight Jack
2009-10-07, 05:10 PM
I know you said you're done with the dice-pool system of the WoD, but I'd just like to throw out an easy houerule that at least partially remedies this. Weapons to automatic damage. In your example, instead of having 6 dice in your pool, you'd have 3 (Dex+Firearms-Range and Cover). But whenever you rolled successes, you'd add the 3 damage from the .45 to it. So, the least damage you could do is 4, which is over half of what an average human could take. If you really wanna make combat deadlier, double the time it takes to recover from wounds.

Obviously, this works best with straight-up Mortals.

I'd thought of that, and I think it's an elegant fix. Unfortunately, the system does similar things in all aspects of injury, and this fix doesn't work for all of them. Also, the handfuls of dice (while much improved from the old system) still tend to slow down task resolution while people sort through the dice looking for successes and rerolling 10s, especially when dice pools get high. That doesn't mesh well with the frenetic pace of combat that I'd like to establish.

FunnyMattress
2009-10-07, 05:15 PM
I'd thought of that, and I think it's an elegant fix. Unfortunately, the system does similar things in all aspects of injury, and this fix doesn't work for all of them. Also, the handfuls of dice (while much improved from the old system) still tend to slow down task resolution while people sort through the dice looking for successes and rerolling 10s, especially when dice pools get high. That doesn't mesh well with the frenetic pace of combat that I'd like to establish.

True. I'm trying find any systems like that. Let you know if/when I do.

Raum
2009-10-07, 06:31 PM
I've heard great things about Shadowrun, but I don't want to be mixing fantasy with my gritty sci-fi. How is Shadowrun if you strip all the fantasy elements out? Does it break down the system in a nasty way?I don't see many issues with pulling out the magic rules and races. The biggest one is simply the setting...you'll basically need to build your own because magic is tied very strongly to the SR setting.


What other systems work well for the genre? I'm going for a When Gravity Fails meets Burn Notice kind of vibe. I want cool tech and fun toys, but one of the things that burns me on Cyberpunk 2020 is the way that tech can consume the story to the point where a cyberarm is the new +3 sword. I'd rather have a flexible and comprehensive system than a catalogue of nifty cybernetics and neuralwarez for the players to flip through and make shopping lists.There are some fan sources for a Savage Worlds cyberpunk game and, I believe, a published setting in the works. GURPS is out there if you want lots of options. Wild Talents could be flavored as cyberpunk but you'd need a setting again. Same with any other Supers system really, just change the super power trappings to cybernetic implant trappings. You may also want to check out Blue Planet, Ex Machina, Heavy Gear, or Corporation.