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Zonack
2009-10-07, 01:15 PM
Ok I checked both Player's Handbooks and my friends have also checked em and we never found that...

Now I just got the Arcane Power book and the title reads.

Options for Bards, Sorcerers, SWORDMAGES, Warlocks and Wizards.

God I love Swordmages/Battlemages in ANY game, but where are they???
Are they a class??

incubus5075
2009-10-07, 01:18 PM
in the forgotten realms player's guide

Krrth
2009-10-07, 01:25 PM
Ok I checked both Player's Handbooks and my friends have also checked em and we never found that...

Now I just got the Arcane Power book and the title reads.

Options for Bards, Sorcerers, SWORDMAGES, Warlocks and Wizards.

God I love Swordmages/Battlemages in ANY game, but where are they???
Are they a class??

Yes. They are in the 4e Faerun book and are Arcane Defenders.

tcrudisi
2009-10-07, 01:32 PM
If you are interested in playing one, or have a player who is, the free version of the character builder would let you create a level 1 to 3 character. Using that, you'll learn what their basic class features are, and using Arcane Power, you'll be able to create one. Sure, it won't be as good as if you had the FRPG, but at least it would be playable.

*edit* Side note -- they are widely considered to be the second best defenders in the game (second to only Fighters). They really are a good class.

Krrth
2009-10-07, 01:39 PM
If you are interested in playing one, or have a player who is, the free version of the character builder would let you create a level 1 to 3 character. Using that, you'll learn what their basic class features are, and using Arcane Power, you'll be able to create one. Sure, it won't be as good as if you had the FRPG, but at least it would be playable.

*edit* Side note -- they are widely considered to be the second best defenders in the game (second to only Fighters). They really are a good class.
That's what I did, download the generator. The class seems to work rather well, and I'm having fun running it.

Thajocoth
2009-10-07, 01:44 PM
*edit* Side note -- they are widely considered to be the second best defenders in the game (second to only Fighters). They really are a good class.

Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?! For a defender that loses 3AC for the rest of the encounter if they go unconscious once and already have pretty low defenses & hp compared to other defenders?

I agree that the Fighter's the best defender so far, as the Fighter's mark and the Fighter's AO are both quite good... The Paladin has the best defenses and the Warden has the most hp. They can both take a lot more hits. The Swordmage has some nice powers, but that huge penalty for simply dipping into unconsciousness really cripples them imo.

I'm not saying they're awful. Just... I have trouble seeing why they'd be regarded as second-best...

Krrth
2009-10-07, 01:48 PM
Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?! For a defender that loses 3AC for the rest of the encounter if they go unconscious once and already have pretty low defenses & hp compared to other defenders?

I agree that the Fighter's the best defender so far, as the Fighter's mark and the Fighter's AO are both quite good... The Paladin has the best defenses and the Warden has the most hp. They can both take a lot more hits. The Swordmage has some nice powers, but that huge penalty for simply dipping into unconsciousness really cripples them imo.

I'm not saying they're awful. Just... I have trouble seeing why they'd be regarded as second-best...

I hadn't noticed any of that. As a matter of fact, my Swordmage is on par with the paladin in terms of defense and hp. Where does the penatly for going uncouncious come in?

Thajocoth
2009-10-07, 01:51 PM
I hadn't noticed any of that. As a matter of fact, my Swordmage is on par with the paladin in terms of defense and hp. Where does the penatly for going uncouncious come in?

Swordmage's Warding shuts off when you go unconscious until you have a short or extended rest.

Krrth
2009-10-07, 01:53 PM
Swordmage's Warding shuts off when you go unconscious until you have a short or extended rest.

So it does. I hadn't noticed that before.

Easily fixed, just carry a shield on your back and pull it out.

Mando Knight
2009-10-07, 01:53 PM
Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?! For a defender that loses 3AC for the rest of the encounter if they go unconscious once and already have pretty low defenses & hp compared to other defenders?

Same HP, Paladin-level AC with optimization, high Fort, high Reflex, and a class +2 bonus to Will doesn't sound low.

Their per-power damage output is lower than the other Defenders, but the Shielding Swordmage shuts down enemy damage output, the Assault Swordmage sticks to his mark like there's no tomorrow, and the Ensnarement Swordmage not only drags the opponent back to him for more damage, but also opens it up to Combat Advantage.

Thajocoth
2009-10-07, 01:59 PM
Paladin-level AC with optimization

With two feats, you mean (Hide prof or Improved Warding + That feat that lets you keep Warding after becoming conscious again), while the Paladin doesn't need to waste feats to have and keep their AC. Without any feats, their AC is slightly lower 2/3 of the time and WAY lower the other 1/3. Unless they're not doing a good job of convincing enemies to fight them instead... Then you wind up with dead strikers instead.

Demonix
2009-10-07, 02:10 PM
Actually, we had a swordmage that had a damage output just short of ridiculous, but to be fair that party had 2 leaders, 2 defenders and a controller. It took us a long time to kill anything, but we never lost anyone. Came close a couple of times.

Best one was a flying over treetops charge initiated by my Knight's Move. Since she used a heavy blade, her crit chance was ridiculous and she rolled well too. I think she managed a 51 point hit on that one. :)

Party makeup was:

Genasi Swordmage
Dragonborn Paladin
Teifling Warlord
Human Cleric
Human Wizard

Jack_Banzai
2009-10-07, 02:21 PM
Swordmage's Warding shuts off when you go unconscious until you have a short or extended rest.

That is lame. I don't think most DMs observe that rule. At least I hope not.

Mando Knight
2009-10-07, 02:25 PM
With two feats, you mean (Hide prof or Improved Warding + That feat that lets you keep Warding after becoming conscious again), while the Paladin doesn't need to waste feats to have and keep their AC. Without any feats, their AC is slightly lower 2/3 of the time and WAY lower the other 1/3. Unless they're not doing a good job of convincing enemies to fight them instead... Then you wind up with dead strikers instead.

Nope. Even an 18 Int can get the Swordmage up to 19 AC at level 1 (4+3+2) with just Leather... which is the highest a Fighter can get without specializing in AC, and the highest a Warden can get with specializing in AC. Grabbing 20 Int or Hide improves that to 20. Optimizing the Swordmage's AC mostly means keeping their main attacking stat high.

As for the other defenses, the Swordmage is the only one out of the defenders that keeps his Reflex defense decently high (unless you boost your Dexterity instead of Wisdom as a Fighter), and keeps the Defenders' usual high Fortitude. Will can lag behind a bit at higher levels, but that's eventually remedied with Epic Will.

Break
2009-10-07, 03:09 PM
I have not seen any suggestion that swordmages were the second best defenders before this topic. :smallconfused: I always found them to be on the weak side, really, and not just because of the warding dropping issue (which has been houseruled in pretty much every game I've been in, due to the rule being quite silly).

Kurald Galain
2009-10-07, 03:44 PM
Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?!
Yes. Having good defenses doesn't make you a good defender. In fact paladins were probably the worst defender until Divine Power came out, since they couldn't give enough incentive for the enemies to attack the paladin.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-07, 04:08 PM
God, Swordmages are terrible Defenders! Or at least, the one in my game is.
It's an Eberron game, with the following party make-up (1st level):

Half-Elf Thaneborne Barbarian (me)
Warforged Wrath (the striker-y one) Invoker
Warforged Warding Swordmage (yes, with improved Warding)
Changeling Psionic
Kalashtar Monk
Human Artificer

So he's the only Defender and I'm the only Striker. Even with the boatload of Controllers here, the Swordmage has almost always gone down while I'm teaming with him - and I soon follow. Why? Because when he marks things he gets pounded into the ground. Oh, I love his Warding (Ward + THP = :smallbiggrin:) but it only works once per round (Immediate Action, y'know). This means he usually has to pick between Warding me or the Monk (for baddies with burst effects) - not a good choice.
I'd love to have a Fighter in the party who can at least deck the baddie if he takes a swing at me - or a Warden who can suck up however many baddies he wants. Hell, a Paladin would be better - at least he can throw out some Lay on Hands :smallannoyed:

Kaerius
2009-10-07, 04:30 PM
Swordmages make better mass minion slayers than defenders(well, at least they have the potential, just go thunderball).

I'd personally rate paladin(chaladin) and fighter as the two best defenders. Chaladins have lots of staying power, and from lvl 2 they have 2 AoE divine sanction encounter abilities(divine power) that really makes the enemy not want to hit anyone else. Heck if you have a paladin and a fighter, the fighter can draw the enemies in and sticky them, and the paladin make it painful for them to hit the fighter! At which point their best action is... total defense, because hitting the fighter hurts, trying to move away from the fighter also hurts.

Swordmage on the other hand can only mitigate/punish once per round, but can can spend 4 feats(3 if he hybrids wizard) to make his at-will attack close burst 3. In fact a hybrid wiz/swordmage is an excellent minion wiper who can also lockdown the bigger baddies.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-07, 04:30 PM
God, Swordmages are terrible Defenders! Or at least, the one in my game is.
Hm, I've never played a swordmage myself, but I've seen some monsters become quite ineffective because of a swordmage's "reduce damage to his allies" ability. Of course, they do tend to lean towards weird strategies like marking a monster and then running away to the other side of the battlefield...

Personally I prefer the fighter's ability to stop enemy movement.

Uin
2009-10-07, 04:34 PM
The 4e Char Op guys currently reckon Paladin > Swordmage > Fighter > Warden. Divine Power in some ways is the most powerful splat book, but really it just comes down to how many options are available.

Fighter was best after MP. Swordmage was best after AP. Now Paladin is best after DP.

TheEmerged
2009-10-07, 04:36 PM
Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?! For a defender that loses 3AC for the rest of the encounter if they go unconscious once and already have pretty low defenses & hp compared to other defenders?

I agree that the Fighter's the best defender so far, as the Fighter's mark and the Fighter's AO are both quite good... The Paladin has the best defenses and the Warden has the most hp. They can both take a lot more hits. The Swordmage has some nice powers, but that huge penalty for simply dipping into unconsciousness really cripples them imo.

I'm not saying they're awful. Just... I have trouble seeing why they'd be regarded as second-best...

Because unlike Wardens (pending Primal Power) and Paladins (before Divine Power), Swordmages actually give the marked victims a reason to attack him instead of "kill the one(s) in the dress!" Also, I have to question that "low defenses" statement, the one in our party is comparable without much in the way of optimazation.

And regarding the unconscious thing... how often does the defender really go unconscious in play? I'll grant our party runs with 2 leaders (bard, and laser priest that's going buffing priest next adventure), but I've only seen someone get to the "surge value" margin a couple of times.

The Swordmage in the party I DM for is pretty reliably either the second or third damage dealer (depending on how much AE the wizard gets to dish). We're running with the 1 defender/striker/controller 2 leader mix.

Thajocoth
2009-10-07, 04:37 PM
Swordmages make better mass minion slayers than defenders(well, at least they have the potential, just go thunderball).

Swordmage on the other hand can only mitigate/punish once per round, but can can spend 4 feats(3 if he hybrids wizard) to make his at-will attack close burst 3. In fact a hybrid wiz/swordmage is an excellent minion wiper who can also lockdown the bigger baddies.

Yeah, Swordmages are secondarily controllers, so it makes sense they're kinda good at doing controller things. The odd part is that they're about as good controllers as defenders. I'd say a Swordmage|Wizard is a controller with a sprinkle of defender.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-07, 04:46 PM
The 4e Char Op guys currently reckon Paladin > Swordmage > Fighter > Warden. Divine Power in some ways is the most powerful splat book, but really it just comes down to how many options are available.

Fighter was best after MP. Swordmage was best after AP. Now Paladin is best after DP.
I'm not seeing the CharOp consensus. Could you link to a thread? :smallconfused:

EDIT:

Because unlike Wardens (pending Primal Power) and Paladins (before Divine Power), Swordmages actually give the marked victims a reason to attack him instead of "kill the one(s) in the dress!" Also, I have to question that "low defenses" statement, the one in our party is comparable without much in the way of optimazation.
I dunno... maybe he has really bad NADs? We've been facing mostly NAD Kickers lately.

I guess my biggest complaint is that they don't actually defend anyone. Heck, every post I've read lauds them for being huge damage dealers - which is the role of the Striker, not the Defender.

Anyhow, next game I plan (IC) to chat with him about battle tactics. One of the benefits of being the bastard child of a Valenar warband leader :smallbiggrin:

Blackfang108
2009-10-07, 04:53 PM
God, Swordmages are terrible Defenders! Or at least, the one in my game is.
It's an Eberron game, with the following party make-up (1st level):

Half-Elf Thaneborne Barbarian (me)
Warforged Wrath (the striker-y one) Invoker
Warforged Warding Swordmage (yes, with improved Warding)
Changeling Psionic
Kalashtar Monk
Human Artificer

So he's the only Defender and I'm the only Striker. Even with the boatload of Controllers here, the Swordmage has almost always gone down while I'm teaming with him - and I soon follow. Why? Because when he marks things he gets pounded into the ground. Oh, I love his Warding (Ward + THP = :smallbiggrin:) but it only works once per round (Immediate Action, y'know). This means he usually has to pick between Warding me or the Monk (for baddies with burst effects) - not a good choice.
I'd love to have a Fighter in the party who can at least deck the baddie if he takes a swing at me - or a Warden who can suck up however many baddies he wants. Hell, a Paladin would be better - at least he can throw out some Lay on Hands :smallannoyed:

Without knowing the TYPE of swordmage (Assault, Shielding, Ensnarement) we can't really comment on this. Nevermind on this. It's Shielding, not Warding. (Their Warding is a Class feature that gives them a + to AC.)

Except I can say this much now: He's playing wrong if he's marking and then staying there. The best Defender I know is a Shielding SM who is never near the enemies he's Marked. Instead, he's marking one enemy, and engaging another enemy on the other side of the squishies.

As the player of an effective Assault Mage (Pre AP, even) It's the same thing. A swordmage should never stay near his mark unless it's the only creature left. Make the mark go through your allies to reach you, or attack your ally with a -2, knowing that something terrible is going to happen to it if it does, in fact, hit.

EDIT: and Monk's a Striker, too.

Thajocoth
2009-10-07, 05:00 PM
Creating some quick level 1 chars in the builder:

Longtooth Shifter - 26HP, 9 surges, 19AC, 17Fort, 12Ref, 12Will, Stops enemies in their tracks, bonus to AOs, spends 1/3 of their time dazed.

Warforged Warden - 33HP, 12 surges, 18AC, 16Fort, 12Ref, 12Will, Second Wind makes it nigh impossible for enemies to hit allies, spends 1/6th of their time dazed.

Longtooth Shifter Paladin - 26HP, 10 surges, 20AC, 16Fort, 13Ref, 14Will, Can heal a bit, marked enemies burn when they disobey, spends 1/4th of their time dazed.

Githyanki Swordmage - 31HP, 11 surges, 19AC average, 13 Fort, 15 Ref, 13 Will, Can protect allies from damage. AC is 20 2/3 of the time & 17 1/3 of the time for an average of 19. Spends 1/3 of their time dazed.

EDIT: Each case has 20 in their primary stat and 16 in their secondary. Fighter is Str/Wis, Warden is Str/Con, Paladin is Str/Wis & Swordmage is Int/Con, with the relevant class feature choices for those builds...

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-07, 05:05 PM
Except I can say this much now: He's playing wrong if he's marking and then staying there. The best Defender I know is a Shielding SM who is never near the enemies he's Marked. Instead, he's marking one enemy, and engaging another enemy on the other side of the squishies.
I'll mention it to him.

The problem is our last few fights have either been hordes-though-rooms or claustraphobia, so he's usually nearby - even if he's not getting hit.

Any yeah, while Monks *are* Strikers it's being played by a person who doesn't care much for combat. So while other people built the character and advise her what to do, nobody else at the table is really a Monk expert.

Me? I got an Executioner's Axe and a +3 to hit buff whenever I bloody someone. First battle I one-shotted a Soldier (thanks to Rage Drake Frenzy and a Crit) - second one I was two-hitting everyone except the heavies.

And then the Drow attacked :smallannoyed:

DiscipleofBob
2009-10-07, 07:04 PM
Swordmages are amazing. I'm not going to say they're better or worse than any other defender or any other class because I abhor such conversations, but Blackfang108 is right: If you're playing a Swordmage the same way you play a Fighter or Warden, you're doing it wrong.

My swordmage (shielding of course) will mark an enemy, use one of many abilities to teleport to the other side of the room (and for the record, she's human, not eladrin, all her teleport abilities come with the class even without aegis of assault), pretty much force the target to attack someone else and have its damage negated, the triggering of which will give the swordmage some decent bonuses due to some feats.

If someone manages to hit her, she retaliates with Frost Backlash for 3[W]+Int frost damage. If someone manages to hit a nearby ally, she can use her Corona Guard paragon encounter to basically make the attack whiff. If someone gets her with a ranged attack, she can teleport right next to said ranged character. If she gets disarmed or captured, she can call her sword to her from a mile away.

So yea, in my experience, swordmages are awesome.

Krrth
2009-10-07, 09:28 PM
I'll chime in with the others on playing a swordmage. I mark the nastiest thing on the table and then let the avenger and paladin beat up on it.

I'll then go and beat up on the lesser critters.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-07, 09:38 PM
This... does not sound very Defender-y. Really, it's more like a Controller/Striker - single target debuff with lots of damage powers.

I mean, look at the basic description:

Defenders have the highest defenses in the game and good close-up offense. They are the party’s front-line combatants; wherever they’re standing, that’s where the action is. Defenders have abilities and powers that make it difficult for enemies to move past them or to ignore them in battle.
Yeah. What we need is a Defender to keep the Barbarian from being focused-fired while she Rages. It may be a very good class, but I still don't see how it can be called a good Defender.

DiscipleofBob
2009-10-07, 11:58 PM
This... does not sound very Defender-y. Really, it's more like a Controller/Striker - single target debuff with lots of damage powers.

I mean, look at the basic description:

Yeah. What we need is a Defender to keep the Barbarian from being focused-fired while she Rages. It may be a very good class, but I still don't see how it can be called a good Defender.

Please read the Aegis of Shielding again. This one aspect is possibly the single most defender-esque ability in the game. It literally means "I stop you from hurting my ally." I don't see how you can get more Defender than that.

Artanis
2009-10-08, 02:03 AM
Yeah, I've always considered the Shielding Swordmage to be the "purest" defender, regardless of where it is in terms of effectiveness.

Nai_Calus
2009-10-08, 03:17 AM
Nothing says 'frak you' to the DM quite like marking something, going away, and then forcing the marked monster to suffer the -2 penalty to try to hit your ally, only to have it do piss for damage if it hits.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-08, 03:26 AM
I mean, look at the basic description:
That description doesn't fully apply to the swordmage (marking someone and then running away means they're really not at the frontline most of the time).

NPCMook
2009-10-08, 05:57 AM
Swordmages also have the best mark ability, The enemy is marked till it is dead, has another mark placed upon it, or you mark something else

A Fighter can only mark what he attacks till the end of his next turn
A Paladin has to fight his mark, or at least stay close to it
A Warden can only mark everything around it till the end of his next turn

The Swordmages mark is the lazy defenders mark, They mark them and then go away, causing the enemy to suffer penalties and then move the enemy around, with moves like Transposing Lunge

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-08, 10:20 AM
Please read the Aegis of Shielding again. This one aspect is possibly the single most defender-esque ability in the game. It literally means "I stop you from hurting my ally." I don't see how you can get more Defender than that.
That's not what Defenders do. Read it again:

Defenders have the highest defenses in the game and good close-up offense. They are the party’s front-line combatants; wherever they’re standing, that’s where the action is. Defenders have abilities and powers that make it difficult for enemies to move past them or to ignore them in battle.


Nothing, aside from "highest defenses" (arguably) applies to how the Swordmage is run.

Do you know who the Swordmage sounds like? The Leader:

Leaders inspire, heal, and aid the other characters in an adventuring group. Leaders have good defenses, but their strength lies in powers that protect their companions and target specific foes for the party to concentrate on.
I'm not saying it's a bad class, but it's no Defender.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-08, 10:32 AM
I'm not saying it's a bad class, but it's no Defender.
Or, alternatively, the definition of "defender" changed since the player's handbook was printed (WOTC has flat out admitted that they didn't yet know how exactly to define "controller" at that point, either).

Or, yet alternatively, the Four Roles really aren't all that meaningfully distinct.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-08, 10:43 AM
Or, alternatively, the definition of "defender" changed since the player's handbook was printed (WOTC has flat out admitted that they didn't yet know how exactly to define "controller" at that point, either).

Or, yet alternatively, the Four Roles really aren't all that meaningfully distinct.
Right, except that all of the other Defenders fit that mold exactly. The other Leaders all act like Leaders and the Strikers (mostly) act like Strikers.

The Controller point is certainly true, but after the Wizard all of the other Controllers are of similar molds.

Also: I'm not getting into the "everything's the same" argument again

Aron Times
2009-10-08, 10:53 AM
Right now, my shielding swordmage can mark a maximum of two targets. One from Aegis of Shielding, and another from Swordmage Shielding Fire (a daily).

In our current encounter (we paused the battle because it was getting late), I marked a hobgoblin mage with my Aegis of Shielding and the hobgoblin BBEG, Red Talon, with my Swordmage Shielding Fire. I then teleported to the other side of the battlefield to engage another hobgoblin mage.

The mage had trouble hitting my allies due to the -2 penalty. Red Talon, on the other hand, kept taking damage from my Swordmage Shielding Fire since he was forced to engage the other two melee party members who had surrounded him. And finally, the other hobgoblin mage had problems getting away from me thanks to Booming Blade.

If I took Blade Bolt instead of Glamor Blade at level 9, I could've marked three targets in this massive encounter and kept a fourth target busy.

Anyway, I managed to negate three powerful combatants in this encounter using only two dailies (Impenetrable Warding and Swordmage Shielding Fire).

Kurald Galain
2009-10-08, 11:00 AM
Right, except that all of the other Defenders fit that mold exactly. The other Leaders all act like Leaders and the Strikers (mostly) act like Strikers.
Your quote from the PHB notwithstanding, my impression is that the primary characteristic of all leader classes is that they can heal (plus the paladin, who of course has "leader" as his secondary). The swordmage doesn't heal, so I suggest it fits the label of "controller" better than that of "leader".

Lost Demiurge
2009-10-08, 11:01 AM
Yeah, swordmages are weird. They've got a lot of useful tricks, but you really need to know each one if you want to get the most out of them.

Still, I don't mind. It's a nonconventional way of keeping foes busy, but when it works it's damn awesome. The whole "becoming unconscious screws you" only really applies when you go unconscious... And if that's happening a lot, well, check your tactics and have a talk with your party to adjust your fighting styles.

If you want to be a simple defender with a dash of damage, play a fighter. If you want a dash of healing instead, play a paladin. Only play a Warden or Swordmage if you're up for a slightly more complex style.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-08, 12:34 PM
Anyway, I managed to negate three powerful combatants in this encounter using only two dailies (Impenetrable Warding and Swordmage Shielding Fire).
Great. What could you do at LV 1? 'cause that's where I'm coming from.

Anyhoo, it's just annoying that my Thaneborn Barbarian seems to be the party Defender, since the Swordmage can't keep anyone from walking up to the Psionist, Invoker, or Artificer and smacking them around.

Because he won't get Melee Training until LV 2 :smallannoyed:

But if the "run away and bop minions" thing is what Swordmages are supposed to do, I'll let him know.

Aron Times
2009-10-08, 12:41 PM
I have Booming Blade and Aegis of Shielding at level 1. This means that I can negate two targets at the same time, all at level 1, using only at-will powers.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-08, 12:54 PM
I have Booming Blade and Aegis of Shielding at level 1. This means that I can negate two targets at the same time, all at level 1, using only at-will powers.
I guess our Swordmage is terrible then? 'cause those are his powers and, so far, he's negated pretty much nothing.

But then again, he was in the melee. Where he apparently isn't supposed to be.

Could you elaborate your LV 1 Swordmage strategy? I have a game coming up on Monday and I'd like to stay conscious for one fight for a change.

Mando Knight
2009-10-08, 01:04 PM
Could you elaborate your LV 1 Swordmage strategy? I have a game coming up on Monday and I'd like to stay conscious for one fight for a change.

It basically goes...
1.) Use Aegis on one target within the burst.
2.) Use Booming Blade on a second target.

Now, if the Aegis-marked target tries to attack someone, you can shut down their offense, and Booming Blade keeps the second one right next to you because it hurts if he goes anywhere else.

I think the first feat a Shield-mage should take is actually Intelligent Blademaster/Melee Training (Int), to further threaten the target of Booming Blade. (Shift for pain, walk for death)

Krrth
2009-10-08, 01:04 PM
I guess our Swordmage is terrible then? 'cause those are his powers and, so far, he's negated pretty much nothing.

But then again, he was in the melee. Where he apparently isn't supposed to be.

Could you elaborate your LV 1 Swordmage strategy? I have a game coming up on Monday and I'd like to stay conscious for one fight for a change.

I can tell you mine. Since I'm level one, it might help.

Genasi Swordmage. (watersoul)

Spoilered for length

12,16,12,18,10,10.

AC 19, saves 13/14/12

Broadsword for 1d10.

Powers are Greenflame Blade, Lightning lure, flame cyclone, frost backlash.

While traveling, stay in the front rank. Mark the nastiest thing within two squares when it shows up, they make sure to stay out of hand to hand, but within 10 squares.

Greenflame kills minions rather well, and lightning lure pulls enemies to you.

Generally, after marking the enemy I keep the other baddies from getting to the squishies spellcasters.

SoC175
2009-10-08, 01:45 PM
and already have pretty low defenses & hp compared to other defenders?
Actually swordmages are the top-defenses defenders and have as many hp as every other defender.

That they lose a fair chunk of their defenses as soon as they go unconscious is a big weakness, but until this point they're the defenders with the highest defenses.

The Paladin has the best defenses
Actually no, a swordmage easily beats the AC of a plate and shield paladin (until he goes unconscious)

and the Warden has the most hp.
Because he's a primal class. Otherwise the swordmage has the same hp/level as every other defender and thx to actually having a Con-build has more hp than a paladin.

Without any feats, their AC is slightly lower 2/3 of the time and WAY lower the other 1/3.
And with a single feat (which the paladin needs to spend too) the AC is higher 2/3 of the time.

Unless they're not doing a good job of convincing enemies to fight them instead...
"Attack me or deal 0 damage" is usually a pretty good incentive. Unfortunately the swordmage will be way out of reach of his marked enemy and so it becomes "deal 0 damage, sucks to be you"

Why? Because when he marks things he gets pounded into the ground.
If he get's pounded into the ground so would any fighter. Because the fighter would at best have the same defenses / hp. If the fighter would be ignored, the strikers die.

Enemy attacks defender: both equal
Enemy attacks striker: advantage swordmage

but it only works once per round (Immediate Action, y'know).
The fighter warding also works only once per round and actually doesn't prevent the striker from taking damage.

This means he usually has to pick between Warding me or the Monk (for baddies with burst effects) - not a good choice.
While the fighter could not use his mark at all, since he would be part of the burst and thus the mark would not be triggered

or a Warden who can suck up however many baddies he wants.
Yet he can only react to a single enemy ignoring his mark per round

I guess my biggest complaint is that they don't actually defend anyone. Heck, every post I've read lauds them for being huge damage dealers - which is the role of the Striker, not the Defender.
I don't know which boards you are reading. One of the few things that universally agreed on on the WotC boards is that the swordmage is just about the lowest-damage-dealing-defender of all (however it can be changed by spending a lots of feats, mostly on dubios stuff from dragon magazine)

Mando Knight
2009-10-08, 01:54 PM
Actually no, a swordmage easily beats the AC of a plate and shield paladin (until he goes unconscious)

Nope. A swordmage matches the AC of a plate and shield Paladin unless he goes all-out to increase his AC. He can get reliably 1 higher if he pulls a 20 in Int at first level and takes Hide proficiency.

SoC175
2009-10-08, 01:56 PM
Nope. A swordmage matches the AC of a plate and shield Paladin unless he goes all-out to increase his AC. He can get reliably 1 higher if he pulls a 20 in Int at first level and takes Hide proficiency.
He doesn't need to put "all-out" defenses. He needs only a single feat (Greater Swordmage Warding) which he takes for the same feat slot the paladin spends on either shield specialization or plate specialization (they don't stack).

Blackfang108
2009-10-08, 02:03 PM
He doesn't need to put "all-out" defenses. He needs only a single feat (Greater Swordmage Warding) which he takes for the same feat slot the paladin spends on either shield specialization or plate specialization (they don't stack).

And put a 20 in his Single most important Stat. (especially if he's not a Shielding SM.)

Mando Knight
2009-10-08, 02:16 PM
He doesn't need to put "all-out" defenses. He needs only a single feat (Greater Swordmage Warding) which he takes for the same feat slot the paladin spends on either shield specialization or plate specialization (they don't stack).

*Double-checks* Huh. Yeah, at higher levels, they can exceed it (by about 3 from what I tried...). It also helps if they take Coronal Guard and an ED that grants +2 Int. Not-bloodied Paladins can match it with Agile Godplate and 16 Dex, but that's a unique case.

My point still stands: a Swordmage and a Paladin have roughly the same AC with similar levels of optimization.

SoC175
2009-10-08, 02:17 PM
And put a 20 in his Single most important Stat. (especially if he's not a Shielding SM.)
While Int (along with Dex) is the primary stat where a 20 is arguably worth it, I would advise against it. Although with Int or Dex the opportunity costs is a little bit less (getting hit/damage/AC/NAD instead of only hit/damage/NAD), it's still too high for my taste.

But yes, a swordmage only (starting with an 18 Int) will only match the paladins AC, not exceed it. Yet if we assume that both will spend more than 1 feat on their defenses, a swordmage can take hide armor basically for free, as Greater Warding combines and exceeds Armor Spec + Paragon Defenses (later retrained into robust defenses).

A paladin with +6 godplate and a heavy shield and with spec in either of them will have AC 48.

A swordmage starting with 18 Int and taking GSW and hide armor prof for the feat slots the paladin spends on armor spec and robust defenses will end up with AC 49.


In the end a shielding swordmage can just negate ~27 damage from an attack made by his marked enemy (e.g. Tiamat, lvl 35 solo brute, hits for ~34 damage on an at-will).

Mando Knight
2009-10-08, 02:22 PM
A paladin with +6 godplate and a heavy shield and with spec in either of them will have AC 48.

A swordmage starting with 18 Int and taking GSW and hide armor prof for the feat slots the paladin spends on armor spec and robust defenses will end up with AC 49.

You can boost the swordmage's by another 2 by taking Coronal Guard and a +Int Epic Destiny (Avatar of Justice, Archlich, Demigod, Chosen, etc). +6 Agile Godplate and a final 16 Dex (a rather specific, some CharOp-ers would say bad, build... but I like it...) gives another 3 AC to the Paladin until he's bloodied.

However, that's specializing in boosting AC. :smalltongue:

SoC175
2009-10-08, 02:35 PM
However, that's specializing in boosting AC. :smalltongue:
If the swordmage decides to go Sages of Ages he should be able to almost always get at 2 of his 4 trick of knowledge boons (while often getting three and often enough getting all 4). So that's a +2 to all defenses pluse a pick from +2 all attack rolls or +5 saving throws or saving at the start of the turn.

My swordmage/academy master/sages of ages will end up with (after applying said +2) with AC 51; Fort 49; Ref 51, Will 46 while either negating 26 damage from his marked enemy if he triggers the mark or automatically inflicting 8 damage followed by an at-will attack if the enemy decides to not triggering my mark by attacking me.

DiscipleofBob
2009-10-08, 03:41 PM
That's not what Defenders do. Read it again:

Defenders have the highest defenses in the game and good close-up offense. They are the party’s front-line combatants; wherever they’re standing, that’s where the action is. Defenders have abilities and powers that make it difficult for enemies to move past them or to ignore them in battle.


Nothing, aside from "highest defenses" (arguably) applies to how the Swordmage is run.

Do you know who the Swordmage sounds like? The Leader:

I'm not saying it's a bad class, but it's no Defender.

You are taking a very general description of the Defender role and trying to apply it as a requirement, which it is not.

A Defender 's job is this: to stop the enemies from attacking the allies. Now, you would be correct in saying that most Defenders do this by interposing themselves between the bad guys and their squishy allies, but just because it's the general, most common way to accomplish their role doesn't make it the only role.

Take this metaphor, which will most likely be dissected and torn apart by others and found flawed: A Fighter, a Paladin, a Warden, and a Swordmage come to a river with rushing currents, and are told they need to cross it. The Fighter uses his tough martial training to power through the currents and swim across. The Paladin prays to his deity for strength while swimming across. The Warden, being one with nature, swims with the current to get across. The Swordmage, not really seeing the point of getting her hair wet, uses one of many powers to teleport across. Now, the Fighter, Paladin, and Warden might get irritated and claim that the Swordmage didn't do it the right way and swim across, but what does she care? She was supposed to cross the river, and did so in a manner which happened to be more effective. She just didn't use the traditional manner.

I'd like to point out one very important advantage the Swordmage has over the other defenders: and that is the ability to trigger their mark ability easier than the others. I'm not convinced by the argument that a Defender only works when their mark has enemies attack them instead. In my mind, you would WANT the enemy to attack your allies, because then it triggers your defender ability. The Fighter gets free hits, the Paladin does radiant damage, etc. In the games I've run, the Rogue provokes as many opportunity attacks as possible when the Fighter is around, since they're not likely to get hit anyway. In the Swordmage's case, he can either teleport right next to them and hit them or just flat out negate their damage, and he can do so whether that enemy is near or far.


Great. What could you do at LV 1? 'cause that's where I'm coming from.

As far as a level 1 build, as others have said, with an Aegis of Shielding Swordmage you should be marking one target, then ignoring it, as its damage will be shut down unless the target attacks the swordmage. If there's too many targets, that's probably because of minions, so Greenflame Blade or Sword Burst as many as possible. If more powerful monsters are still beating on your allies, pull them off with Lightning Lure and stick them to the ground with Booming Blade.

Frost Backlash is a great level 1 Daily for punishing the enemy who actually manages to get past your defenses.

Aron Times
2009-10-08, 03:51 PM
Since he's a warforged, he probably has 16 int, for a +3 AC bonus. Warding gives another +3, and leather armor gives +2. That's 18 AC without Improved Warding; 19 AC with it.

And that's at level 1. That's the same AC as a plate-wearing paladin. I don't see how he keeps going down unless he forgot to add int to AC or he's fighting two-handed for only a +1 warding. In the latter case, he'd have 16 AC.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-08, 04:13 PM
@DiscipleofBob
I feel like you're underselling Fighters.
To start with, their prime stat is also what they use for OAs - no feat required. Better yet, they get +WIS to hit on those and anyone hit stops moving. This means it is very dangerous to walk past the Fighter. For the Swordmage, this is only true (it appears) if that particular target is subject to Booming Blade.

Secondly, their mark effect triggers on an attack or a shift. This is huge, since shifting is how baddies get away from Strikers to go charge the squishies. Swordmages... well, provided he can't reach the advancing-to-the-rear Swordmage, he'll see his attack reduced in damage. Of course, any effects (ongoing damage, daze) still go through.

Third, Fighters are pretty good Strikers. They usually have +1 to hit (no feat) and a can use any one-handed weapon a Swordmage wants to use. Since their prime reaction to baddies trying to escape is to hit things, this can add up to a non-trivial amount of damage. A dead baddie is less of a threat than a -2 to hit, -X damage baddie.

Also: Warden can throw out -2 to hit on everyone next to them, and have the HP (and Saves!) to take it. That, with a ranged mark effect, makes them pretty darn good at keeping the baddies from doing much if they ignore him.

@SoC175
Seriously, could you throw up a link to a thread? I admit I only did a quick scan but I didn't see anyone arguing that Swordmages Defend better without also noting that this is because they do ridiculous damage.

EDIT: To be clear - I'm not dissing Swordmages. They're clearly very powerful when optimized but, for goodness sake, I don't see how they can be called Defenders. You can ignore the PHB text I suppose, but even then - 3 of the 4(?) current Defenders follow the text. They're supposed to be on the front line, keeping the baddies from walking into the squishies. The Swordmage is the only one who is supposed to mark, then run away.

SoC175
2009-10-08, 05:12 PM
so noting that this is because they do ridiculous damage.
It's not ridiculously low, but it's at the low end. One reason may be that they get a lot of area powers which just deal lower per enemy damage, but also their single target powers just suck damagewise. They're almost always a [W] behind the others. When fighter encounter powers increase to 3[W], swordmages are still stuck with 2[W]. A 10th level swordmage has only a single 3[W] daily power to take (and that happens to be a 1st level daily) while all the rest are 2[W] and he also has no 2[W] encounter attack until level 3 when other defenders already pick their second 2[W] encounter power (they sure have other neat controller-like effects attached, but from a pure damage POV a swordmage is at the bottom end of the defenders)

At level 10 a fighter can have three 2[W] encounter powers and three 3[W] dailies while a swordmage can only have two 2[W] encounter powers and a single 3[W] daily with the rest of his powers dealing 1[W] and 2[W] respectively.

There's a certain broken swordmage build (that's actually not even a real swordmage but just a swordmage frame packed with powers gained from multiclassing) playing upon the broken interaction of some eladrin racial feats (making it unattainable for any non-eladring swordmage) enabling him to make 4-5 basic attacks per turn but other than that the damage level is below other defenders

, I don't see how they can be called Defenders.
They have high defenses, high hp and keep harm away from their allies.

They're supposed to be on the front line,
Swordmages are on the frontline, they're just at the opposite end of the frontline from their marked target engaging an unmarked target,

keeping the baddies from walking into the squishies.
The swordmage's mark can walk into the squishies, because he won't be able to reall harm them

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-08, 05:27 PM
Swordmages are on the frontline, they're just at the opposite end of the frontline from their marked target engaging an unmarked target
Like I said, advancing towards the rear :smalltongue:


The swordmage's mark can walk into the squishies, because he won't be able to reall harm them
Unless they use burst attacks, or have status effects.

This is why stickiness is good in a Defender; there are lots of ways to cripple a character aside from doing direct damage. A Daze that lets the ranged enemy Lurker get CA (or at least negates the -2 mark penalty), or even Slow stopping the squishie from getting away, are in many way worse than the 5 or so damage an Aegis stops.

Basically, having a Swordmage as your only Defender means everyone else has to focus a lot more on their personal defensive strategy rather than their specialty - he can't stop anyone from getting in your face.

And where is this "stopping damage" Defender quality coming from? Tons of monsters just need to hit someone to do nasty things to them that can't be stopped by an Aegis. This is why "make it difficult for enemies to move past them or to ignore them in battle" is in the description. Heck, the optimal Swordmage does just the opposite - he stays as far away from his mark target as possible and does nothing to stop enemies walking past him - save for a single, one-target power.

Katana_Geldar
2009-10-08, 05:30 PM
I really need to talk to my group before the game, as with a fighter, swordmage, wizard, rogue and paladin we're going to have three defenders and two strikers, no wonder our first encounter went for so long.

I usually see Swordmagi as Arcane paladins anyway.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 05:31 PM
You should be mostly fine, if having short days doesn't matter too much to you.

Katana_Geldar
2009-10-08, 05:32 PM
None of us worked as a group, and we kept hitting each other. :smallsigh:

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 05:35 PM
None of us worked as a group, and we kept hitting each other. :smallsigh:Well... that's a group issue, not a character issue.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-08, 05:38 PM
None of us worked as a group, and we kept hitting each other. :smallsigh:
Kept... hitting each other? I mean, I understand the Wizard, but how could the Fighter, Paladin or Rogue smack anyone but their enemy?

Katana_Geldar
2009-10-08, 05:45 PM
Natural ones and a DM with a sense of humour.

Gralamin
2009-10-08, 06:01 PM
If anyone here plays a Swordmage of Ensarement, my suggestion is to get your DM to house rule that Double Aegis and Total Aegis work with your Aegis, as currently the feats explicitly say you need the Shielding or Assault power.

Defender wise, I'm very convinced that because of DP Paladin is currently the best. After that, is Fighter. After that, is Warden (Who will be bumped up even more pretty soon). Swordmages come in last because of a) Their difficulty in marking multiple people pre-epic, and b) their powers are very Bleh worthy.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-08, 06:06 PM
Natural ones and a DM with a sense of humour.
Ah. Well that's less your fault.

Still, teamwork is important. Unfortunately in my game, I don't have anyone to team with. The best I can do is stack modifiers with the Psion so that I hit with Avalanche Strike.

God, I love having a 3[W] Encounter at 1st Level :smallbiggrin:

Tak
2009-10-11, 07:38 PM
If I got it right, Swordmage don't get AC from dex but from int? On character builder, it does get an AC point from 18 dex. Is it right?

Artanis
2009-10-11, 07:39 PM
If I got it right, Swordmage don't get AC from dex but from int? On character builder, it does get an AC point from 18 dex. Is it right?

Characters in light armor get the higher of their DEX or their INT added to their AC. Swordmages are an INT-based class, so their INT mod will almost always be higher than their DEX mod, which in turn means that they will almost always get their INT mod added to their AC.

Tak
2009-10-11, 07:41 PM
Pretty good to know thank you.

DiscipleofBob
2009-10-11, 10:03 PM
Defender wise, I'm very convinced that because of DP Paladin is currently the best. After that, is Fighter. After that, is Warden (Who will be bumped up even more pretty soon). Swordmages come in last because of a) Their difficulty in marking multiple people pre-epic, and b) their powers are very Bleh worthy.

The second one I'm not going to argue because it's a matter of your opinion, but at level 12 a Swordmage can mark at least three with a feat and a power.

Gralamin
2009-10-11, 10:14 PM
The second one I'm not going to argue because it's a matter of your opinion, but at level 12 a Swordmage can mark at least three with a feat and a power.

At Paragon. Compared to everyone else being able to do that in Heroic. And even then, Ensarement mages cannot do so ever.

DiscipleofBob
2009-10-11, 11:36 PM
At Paragon. Compared to everyone else being able to do that in Heroic. And even then, Ensarement mages cannot do so ever.

Um.. no.

Heroic tier powers that involve extra marks on the target:
Falcon's Mark
Sword of Sigils
Warding Flourish
Ward of Brilliance
Dual Lightning Strike
Swordmage Shielding Strike
Swordmage's Decree
Watchful Strike
Blade Bolt

It's farely easy to create a build that focuses on multiple marks even in Heroic tier if that's what you're going for. Even then, the Swordmage's mark has a better range than the other Defenders (more than just melee that) and is easier to trigger than the other Defenders.

Now, if for your particular playstyle you prefer one of the other Defenders that's fine, but it really is a matter of personal opinion. I personally find the Swordmage the best of the Defenders because of versatility, but I'm loathe to denounce any of the other Defenders or even other classes in favor of any sort of order of best to worst.

Break
2009-10-12, 01:03 AM
Um.. no.

Heroic tier powers that involve extra marks on the target:
Falcon's Mark
Sword of Sigils
Warding Flourish
Ward of Brilliance
Dual Lightning Strike
Swordmage Shielding Strike
Swordmage's Decree
Watchful Strike
Blade Bolt

It's farely easy to create a build that focuses on multiple marks even in Heroic tier if that's what you're going for. Even then, the Swordmage's mark has a better range than the other Defenders (more than just melee that) and is easier to trigger than the other Defenders.

Falcon's Mark - Doesn't aegis mark unless you're Ensnarement, and even then, you have better powers to take.

Sword of Sigils - Actually a good power, but leaves you with a gimped version of the Shielding aegis that's not worth spending an interrupt on. It only aegis marks for Shielders, too.

Warding Flourish, Ward of Brilliance - don't even mark. The latter just involves an enemy that's already marked.

Shielding Strike - admittedly could not find this one. If you mean Shielding Fire, then yes, but it's only worth taking as a Shielding swordmage.

Swordmage's Decree - point, and an excellent power.

Watchful Strike - does, but only for Assault. A slightly different case from Falcon's in that it's actually worth taking.

Blade Bolt - does, but Troll Rampage and Arcane Deflection are much better powers at this level.

Even ignoring the fact that they do possess ways of multi-marking, there's the fact that they are still the defenders limited most by the action economy. Every bit of their defender role relies on a single immediate action - which means while that it may be easier to trigger, that single trigger is going to be the only meaningful defense you're providing.

Paladins can answer enemies who go against their marks freely - meanwhile, with Fighters and Wardens, who are similarly limited, have the advantages of marking multiple foes at-will, along with a much better power set. I'm not sure how the fact that the swordmage doesn't get as many nice things as the other defenders is even in question.

DiscipleofBob
2009-10-12, 10:14 AM
Warding Flourish, Ward of Brilliance - don't even mark. The latter just involves an enemy that's already marked.

>_< My bad. Was seeing what sort of build I could make and took those powers because there wasn't anything better for those levels. Didn't mean to post those.

And like I said, there are some better options than the Swordmage, but if marking multiple enemies is your thing than Swordmage can deliver as well.



Even ignoring the fact that they do possess ways of multi-marking, there's the fact that they are still the defenders limited most by the action economy. Every bit of their defender role relies on a single immediate action - which means while that it may be easier to trigger, that single trigger is going to be the only meaningful defense you're providing.

Paladins can answer enemies who go against their marks freely - meanwhile, with Fighters and Wardens, who are similarly limited, have the advantages of marking multiple foes at-will, along with a much better power set. I'm not sure how the fact that the swordmage doesn't get as many nice things as the other defenders is even in question.

The Paladin's mark ability is kind of meh, just a bit of radiant damage. Fighters and Wardens are better, but are even if their marks are at-will, they're both limited by range, Fighter less so if they have a reach weapon.

The Swordmage has a good range on her mark, has several abilities which let her teleport across the field to either stick on enemies or teleport away so they basically have to trigger their mark, has several ranged and area powers as well so they're not useless out of melee.

Once again, I respect personal preference in regards to classes, but to say Swordmages are flat-out worse than other Defenders is just misleading. In my personal opinion, I find the Swordmage to be the best Defender for the sheer reason of versatility.

Kiero
2009-10-12, 10:23 AM
Swordmage's Warding shuts off when you go unconscious until you have a short or extended rest.

We didn't even notice that when it happened in our game last week. I think I'll continue to pretend I don't know.

its_all_ogre
2009-10-12, 12:05 PM
for a feat a paladin can add str bonus to their mark damage too.
the human paladin using both str and cha uses this to deal out 9 radiant damage on any marked enemy that attacks things other than the paladin...no undead ignore that mark now!

as for the swordmage mark, i found the shielding swordmage very very effective in our weekend sessions even though we had a fairly low AC party (bear shaman, melee ranger, avenger and two handed weapon using paladin pre DP)