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Delandel
2009-10-07, 03:29 PM
Hi, me again. This time I've got quite a difficult question. It requires the book Complete Warrior to answer though.

Improved Trip (SRD): "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

Shield Slam (CW): "As a full-round action or as a charge action, you may make an attack with your shield against an opponent." If the shield attack hits you daze the opponent.

Shock Trooper's (CW) domino rush lets you make a free trip attempt on both opponents if you bullrush an opponent into another enemy's square.

Shield Charge (CW) lets you make a free trip attempt if you hit with your shield as part of a charge.

Now, putting it all together:

1) If I successfully use shield charge and get an extra attack due to a successful trip, does it have a chance to daze if the first shield attack didn't daze? I figure it's still part of the charge so it does.

2) As part of a charge, if I bull rush my opponent into another enemy's square and trip them both, do I get an immediate attack on both of them with the chance to daze them? I assume it does as well.

Thoughts?

Keshay
2009-10-07, 03:46 PM
I'd say no on both counts. Shield Slam explicitly states that it can only be used as a Full Round Action or at the end of a Charge. Improved Trip does not grant an extra Full Round Action, just "a melee attack". Since you have used your Full-round action to Charge, Shield Charge and Shield Slam once already, I think your allotement of Full Round Actions (1) has been all used up.

Person_Man
2009-10-07, 03:49 PM
1) If I successfully use shield charge and get an extra attack due to a successful trip, does it have a chance to daze if the first shield attack didn't daze? I figure it's still part of the charge so it does.

Not by my reading. "As a full round action or as a charge action, you may make an attack with your shield. If you hit, you force the target damage by this attack to make a Fortitude Saving Throw..." Emphasis mine. If they wanted it to apply to all Charge attacks, they would have said so. By my reading you also can't combine it with Pounce.

2) As part of a charge, if I bull rush my opponent into another enemy's square and trip them both, do I get an immediate attack on both of them with the chance to daze them? I assume it does as well.

No again. Same reasoning.

Though FYI, we've already perfected similar combos with Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) and the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5897646).

jiriku
2009-10-07, 03:51 PM
1) My interpretation is no, as the initial attack is the only attack that gets the +2 charge bonus and is therefore the only attack that actually is a charge. However, I could see room to intepret this differently, so you should ask your DM. You may get a more generous ruling. Certainly the ability to force two saves vs. a one-round daze when you charge isn't going to break the game.

2) Yes to the extra attack, no (with an asterisk) to the dazing for the reason described above. However, remember that you must be able to reach your opponent in order to take the free attack granted by improved trip. If you have bull-rushed your enemy a goodly distance into another enemy who is also far away, you may not be in a position to take your free attacks.

daggaz
2009-10-07, 03:55 PM
1) EDIT misread what you said by one word. typical.

As well, Im not entirely sure you get the extra attack granted from improved trip in this case, as improved trip supposes that you used your original attack action to make the trip attempt, rather than to do a melee attack.
It would seem that shield charge just replaces improved trip, allowing you to make the melee attack first followed by a contingent trip attempt, rather than the other way around.

Jastermereel
2009-10-07, 04:33 PM
I can't argue conclusively, but it would seem there'd be some leeway in the way Improved Trip is worded. You don't get an "extra" melee attack, instead "you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." (emphasis added). Thus, wouldn't it be subject to the same conditions and modifiers as the original attack?

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 04:55 PM
The trip isn't a result of the initial attack, though. It's a free attack granted by a rider effect on the initial attack.

If you charged, and as your attack, tripped, yes.

If you charged, and gained a free trip through knockdown, shock trooper, or any other means, no. The trip isn't the initial attack at the end of a charge. It's an additional effect granted as the result of that attack.

Delandel
2009-10-07, 10:19 PM
I'd say no on both counts. Shield Slam explicitly states that it can only be used as a Full Round Action or at the end of a Charge. Improved Trip does not grant an extra Full Round Action, just "a melee attack". Since you have used your Full-round action to Charge, Shield Charge and Shield Slam once already, I think your allotement of Full Round Actions (1) has been all used up.

If Shield Charge grants me a trip attempt during the charge, and improved trip grants me an immediate melee attack as if I never tripped, then it's an attack at the end of a charge isn't it?


Not by my reading. "As a full round action or as a charge action, you may make an attack with your shield. If you hit, you force the target damage by this attack to make a Fortitude Saving Throw..." Emphasis mine. If they wanted it to apply to all Charge attacks, they would have said so. By my reading you also can't combine it with Pounce.

This makes sense and I'll go with it. However, there's one problem with this interpretation which you've touched upon already. How does it work with pounce?

PHB Charge states you get a single attack at the end of the charge, and that attack gets +2. When you Pounce though, that single attack is replaced by a full attack. From my understanding, when you pounce that +2 from the charge suddenly applies to ALL of your attacks, NOT just a single attack. If that is correct (I may be wrong) then wouldn't that same reasoning apply to pounce getting the daze effect from multiple shield attacks in a charge? If I'm wrong about that though, then thank you for solving my problem.


1) My interpretation is no, as the initial attack is the only attack that gets the +2 charge bonus and is therefore the only attack that actually is a charge. However, I could see room to intepret this differently, so you should ask your DM. You may get a more generous ruling. Certainly the ability to force two saves vs. a one-round daze when you charge isn't going to break the game.

But doesn't pounce give the +2 bonus to every attack? With that reasoning, any charge bonus applies to ALL attacks made in the charge. That's basically my fundamental question now.


2) Yes to the extra attack, no (with an asterisk) to the dazing for the reason described above. However, remember that you must be able to reach your opponent in order to take the free attack granted by improved trip. If you have bull-rushed your enemy a goodly distance into another enemy who is also far away, you may not be in a position to take your free attacks.

I'm assuming that I move with the pushed opponent so I can initiate the trip after. Or else domino rush wouldn't be as easy to pull off.


By the way, I'm the DM. I'm also my own most anal critic. I hate bending the rules when I can avoid it because I never want my players to feel at all cheated. If I do something crazy, I want to later point at the sheet and say, "there, that's what it was!"


As well, Im not entirely sure you get the extra attack granted from improved trip in this case, as improved trip supposes that you used your original attack action to make the trip attempt, rather than to do a melee attack.
It would seem that shield charge just replaces improved trip, allowing you to make the melee attack first followed by a contingent trip attempt, rather than the other way around.

I know what you mean. Honestly I'm not even so sure of this myself, but from so many examples I've seen before it can indeed work this way. I certainly have to look this up though before I start using it myself, I wouldn't want to use an ability I can't 100% justify with rules.


I can't argue conclusively, but it would seem there'd be some leeway in the way Improved Trip is worded. You don't get an "extra" melee attack, instead "you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." (emphasis added). Thus, wouldn't it be subject to the same conditions and modifiers as the original attack?

That's what I was thinking. It's another attack in the charge. If pounce gets all the modifiers in a charge even though it's no longer a single attack, doesn't that mean all attacks in a charge get the same benefits for being in the charge?


The trip isn't a result of the initial attack, though. It's a free attack granted by a rider effect on the initial attack.

If you charged, and as your attack, tripped, yes.

If you charged, and gained a free trip through knockdown, shock trooper, or any other means, no. The trip isn't the initial attack at the end of a charge. It's an additional effect granted as the result of that attack.

So you're arguing that Domino Rush's trip resolves after the charge, so the attacks from the trips do not benefit from the charge. Fair enough, I can see that.