Heroes of might and magic!

[Gamerlord]

Anyone in the playground been just as lucky as me to play any, or in my case, ALL, of this....GOD of a series when it comes to Turn-based strategy? I just got my expansion packs to HOMM V so the series is complete for me! :smallbiggrin: Huzzuh!

Anyone want to share their tales of the series and their nations exploits?

[Blayze]

One of my favourite demos, back when I had to use my dad's PC to play anything -- I can still hear him screaming "Paul! Your games have put a virus on the computer again!", despite it not actually making sense -- was Heroes of Might and Magic 2.

To this day, in HoM&M2 I only ever play the scenario that came with the demo -- and in the third game, I play the eight-played map that features your hero getting fined by the custodians of a Shangri-La ripoff for slaughtering on the grass.

However, a sentiment I believe those who experienced the demo of number 2 can understand -- INVINCIBLE. PURPLE. ISLAND.

[Zevox]

I've recently been playing 3. I got it a long time ago after playing it at a cousin's house, but the previous times I've played it, I've not been any good at it. I only recently remembered I had it, and decided to try it out again. With some basic tips from GameFAQs, I've been doing well enough. I'm now on the 7th campaign's second level.

It's a good game, I'd say. Perhaps not great, but good. A pity that the city I like the most, the Tower, seems to have a lot of poor units. Why must those Gremlins be so frail that I lose them by the hundreds whenever anything gets close to them, and by the dozens at least whenever my opponent has any ranged capabilities whatsoever? And Genies suffer from similar frailty. And Gargoyles and Golems are strictly average. The only good units are the Mages, Nagas, and Titans, and that last are expensive as hell to get ahold of (25k gold + 30 gems to upgrade their temple?!).

Then again, my next favorite towns, the Rampart and Necropolis, seem pretty solid overall, so that's nice. Though the Necropolis' Ghost Dragons are kinda weak for a tier 7 unit.

Zevox

[TheSummoner]

HoMM3 was always my favorite in the series... I always played Necropolis and always kicked my friends' asses...

One of them described my strategy like the tiny snowball on top of the mountain... The Undead may take a while to get rolling, but when they do, good luck stopping me.

[blackfox]

I just beat HoMM V last night! When I should have been sleeping! I love college!

...I own complete sets of III, IV, and V.
So far I kinda like IV's engine, III's plot, and V's gameplay.
In III I think I'm best at Inferno. Good at just about anything *except* Academy in IV, and definitely best at Necropolis in V.

[Jamin]

Having played all five games I can say that I have liked all of them even 4 which was of much lower quality due to the many many ways to break the game.



Good at just about anything *except* Academy in IV,

How can you not be good at Academy? They had the most broken spells in the game and that is saying something.

[Manicotti]

HMM3 was definitely the best and most well-rounded, imo, but I really enjoyed the H4 engine - the combat system was much more fluid, and the heroes' fighting and non-hero caravans were genius.

In H3, I played the Necropolis and Inferno towns the most, just because their minions seemed the most prolific - getting the hero with the % bonus to Necromancy meant that I could easily send a hero with a single stack of 3k skeletons to go conquering visitors, and Imps are...well, imps. They die quickly, but you can get enough of them that having them get the first strike is enough that retaliation isn't a big threat. Later game, Vampire Lords and Efreet Sultans in numbers of 60+ were nigh unstoppable - VLs just keep coming back, and Sultans generally hit first, and hit like trucks. The only thing I disliked about the inferno was that the Magogs' fireball attack also hit my own units, even those immune to fire...I typically never use them.

1st-level minions are supposed to be expendable, that's what justifies the rate at which you can create them. The Tower's Gremlins were actually the best at that, iirc - the only 1st-level ranged units, and available in lots of like...40. That's respectable at the early game and occasionally fight-dictating later.

The Necro and Inferno areas also always had useful means of recycling those pesky non-native units as well (which I always tried to keep to a minimum), which I found useful because I make sure that my "main" hero picks up Diplomacy where possible. Pick up a few hundred imps or a horde of dwarves, chop em up and there's more skeletons for defenses or the next hero.

[Mando Knight]

One of my favourite demos, back when I had to use my dad's PC to play anything -- I can still hear him screaming "Paul! Your games have put a virus on the computer again!", despite it not actually making sense -- was Heroes of Might and Magic 2.

To this day, in HoM&M2 I only ever play the scenario that came with the demo -- and in the third game, I play the eight-played map that features your hero getting fined by the custodians of a Shangri-La ripoff for slaughtering on the grass.

However, a sentiment I believe those who experienced the demo of number 2 can understand -- INVINCIBLE. PURPLE. ISLAND.

Ah, yes. The demo was the majority of my experience in HoMM as well. I usually mained Warlock so that I could storm the southern island with a couple hundred Black Dragons after starving out the city for a while... which worked quite well, since Blacks are unaffected by most magic, including total nuclear holocaust.

[toasty]

I played one of the stand-alones for Heroes III (Heroes Chronicles? Master of the Elements?) a long time ago. Never won it; but I got pretty far.

Then I played Heroes IV. Again, I didn't win (not without cheats. ;)) but I LOVED THAT GAME. It was so amazing. Amazingly amazing. I think Heroes IV is brilliant, I don't care what anyone else says. My sister actually likes it more than Heroes V (she never played I, II or III; just IV and V).

But... Five... ugh. I can't get past the demon campaign (Inferno Town? Whatever; they're demons). I think its the 3rd level. The first one where you fight the elves (Haven? No... Nature people in IV; whatever that is) and it is so frustrating. I don't know what to do. Every time I play it I just die. The enemy has an army that pwns me no matter how hard I try to build a good army.

Help?

[Zevox]

1st-level minions are supposed to be expendable, that's what justifies the rate at which you can create them. The Tower's Gremlins were actually the best at that, iirc - the only 1st-level ranged units, and available in lots of like...40. That's respectable at the early game and occasionally fight-dictating later.
They're 1st-tier ranged units, yeah, and I like that; but only after you upgrade them (which you basically have to do immediately, because they're just pathetic without their ranged capabilities, probably the weakest unit in the game). While they're useful early on, when large numbers and ranged capabilities mean a lot, they're also just not strong enough, even in stacks of hundreds at a time, to put much of a dent in higher-level troops (anything from tier 5 or up for sure, maybe even tier 4, assuming they're in numbers appropriate for the match-up).

And most any fast unit that can get to them in 1 or 2 moves will, if in appropriate numbers for the battle, take out a huge chunk of them at once. A single attack from even a small tier-7 group (say a few Archangels or Black/Gold Dragons, who can hit them on turn 1, usually before you can do anything at all, since the Tower doesn't have units as fast as those) is enough to wipe out hundreds, which is far more than I see getting done to any other tier 1 units. Plus they're always the first target of enemy ranged units and the towers of castles, which whittles them down incredibly fast. Any given battle where you have a serious fight on your hands can and probably will easily cost you several weeks worth of them, if not wipe them out completely.


The Necro and Inferno areas also always had useful means of recycling those pesky non-native units as well (which I always tried to keep to a minimum), which I found useful because I make sure that my "main" hero picks up Diplomacy where possible. Pick up a few hundred imps or a horde of dwarves, chop em up and there's more skeletons for defenses or the next hero.
I know about the Necropolis' Skeleton Transformers, but what are you referring to with the Inferno? I can't think of anything comparable that it has.

Zevox

[Tavar]

I think there's a similar thing with Imps. Not sure what, though, haven't played for ages. Never really got into the Turn Based Strategy Games, but Heroes of Might and Magic II has a special place in my heart as it was my gateway game. I also got Heroes 3(plus armeggedon's blade), but by that point I really was loosing interest in the series. Some good memories, though.

[factotum]

Liked III and IV. Despised V. Seems to me that with V they took III, gave it a coat of paint, and then added code so the computer player cheats like nothing on earth--I realised I wasn't going to bother finishing the game on the level when I had the enemy bottled up in their only remaining town and yet they still somehow managed to send vast armies through a portal to attack my town behind my back! In III and IV the AI *never* cheated like that--they had to pop units from towns and structures on the map, just like you did.

[BloodyAngel]

I've played most of them, and I enjoyed my all-hero team from IV. Slow to start? Incredibly. But it felt like a party of adventurers!

One of the things about V that always weirded me out was how very obviously some of it it was swiped from warhammer. Pale, magic using dark elves riding lizards? Half-nude elven women with paired swords? They're slavers, you say? Sound like Druchii to me. Inferno is more subtle about it, but it's got a pretty strong chaos vibe to them too. It really confuses me why they switched it out from the efreeti and orcs that were affiliated with chaos in the old games. Why'd they make such a drastic change, if it wasn't even an original idea. MM had it's own thing going for a while... I don't get it.

[Jahkaivah]

Anyone remember the HoMM2 map Dynamic Duo?

Anyone remember that island?

I always used to say to whoever I was playing with "You can have those magic lamps, you can have all the magic lamps.... just let me talk to the Sphinx."

[Athaniar]

I haven't played much HoMM, but what I played I found to be worse than my favorite of the genre, Age of Wonders II. Still, I really should play some more in order to be able to make a better comparison.

[Poil]

I love this series and have been playing it since I first got Heroes 2. A friend and I play Heroes 5 hotseat occasionally, with the expansions the AI seem a little less moronic. It's amusing how the non-magic using orcs got the most damaging single target spell in the game. Screw empowered Implosion, Horde's Anger is where the pain is.

Here's a link to a skillwheel if you are playing Heroes 5 and wish to better plan your heroes. (http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=520)

[Eldan]

Heroes III was awesome in multiplayer, and quite cool in the campaigns.

V, though... while it had cool graphics and interesting mechanics, something was just lacking. I made it to the third mission of the first campaign before getting bored and have only played a handful of multiplayer games. It's definitely lacking maps... I mean, it has maybe 2 of every kind, which just isn't what I was looking for.

[Winthur]

I know about the Necropolis' Skeleton Transformers, but what are you referring to with the Inferno? I can't think of anything comparable that it has.

There's a high level technique that's basically needed to win as Inferno on multiplayer league games - Demon Farming. Basically, you get to Pit Lords and they make Demons out of dead fodder unit - like Imps, Gogs, but also anything that joins you on the map. You can make a great stack of demons, and if you add the Pit Lords, the epically awesome Efreet Sultans, and the decent Archdevils, you've got yourself a powerful army. Cerberi are also good, but they just kinda die easy so preferrably get a proper Defense stat. Preferrably, use Nymus or Marius, because they're the only Inferno heroes that matter, really. :smalltongue:

For me? HoMM 3. I didn't manage to finish HoMM 2. HoMM I played when I was little. HoMM 4 isn't bad, it's different. HoMM 5 I have no experiences with.

[Dhavaer]

I didn't mind 1 and 2 and really liked 3, particularly the Tower, Castle and Dungeon. I'm thinking of getting 5 soon, I saw it for $20 or so the other day.

[Morty]

I own all the parts of the saga, even though I haven't played any of them except HoMMV in a while, partially because I can't find the DVD with HoMM1-3. Still, I hage a huge sentiment for the series, and I've played H3 nd HV the most. I think those are the best parts - HoMM3 has this something that makes it great and HoMM5 is simply very well done and, especially with expansions installed, full of great things. HoMM1 and 2 are nice too, and HoMM2 is the first strategy game I've ever played, so I'll always remember it. HoMM4 I'm torn about. Some ideas are great, but the execution fails somewhat.

[Zevox]

There's a high level technique that's basically needed to win as Inferno on multiplayer league games - Demon Farming. Basically, you get to Pit Lords and they make Demons out of dead fodder unit - like Imps, Gogs, but also anything that joins you on the map.
Ah, right, I always forget about that ability of the Pit Lords (until wild groups of them use it against me... annoying bastards).

Zevox

[Eldan]

Just a question: do the expansions of HoMMV add a respectable amount of Multiplayer maps? Because after me and my brother had played through that handful it had, the game just got uniteresting.

[Gamerlord]

Just a question: do the expansions of HoMMV add a respectable amount of Multiplayer maps? Because after me and my brother had played through that handful it had, the game just got uniteresting.


It adds quite a few, including a random map generator in the dwarf one.

[Eldan]

Oh hallelujah. I think I might have to buy it.

[SandroTheMaster]

How did this thread got past me? Oh well... two guess as to whom my avatar is named after.

Simply put, I liked all Heroes. Heroes 1 has a cute charm from the earlier Might and Magic games, then 2 has a refined mechanics upon the first and starts out what'd make New World Computing a reference in game soundtracks... and it was infamous for having such a heavy soundtrack most PCs of its time couldn't handle it with music turned on in Opera.

Heroes 3 took 2 and refined it even further. Made every castle-bound creature have an upgrade, added more factions, gave special abilities to heroes, worked upon the soundtrack to achieve comparable results and made an interesting campaign to boot and contrast against the run-of-the-mill ones of previous Heroes.

Heroes 4 was a gamble. A gamble that was done at a wrong time... unfortunately it was done when 3DO was going bat**** insane and started thinking it was fine to churn out titles as fast as possible, resulting in a game that didn't had the time to be properly polished and tested. Still, there's a lot to love about it, and even though it still lacks the polish, using the Equilibris mod balances the game out. The idea of having heroes directly in the battlefield fixed one of the biggest imbalances of previous Heroes (to have the first cast you needed the fastest creature, now it was based on the Hero himself), the addition of caravans and creature movement to fix the "Hero-chaining", superb campaigns (Gauldoth Half-Dead and Emilia Nightraven stand out, there's more polish in these than in most of famous literary works and anyone who've not played them can't call themselves real Heroes fans), improved soundtrack... the biggest problem is the small creature pool due to the system of dynamic build. If you pick one, you can't pick the other from the same level. That was actually an interesting idea, but poorly implemented (Ubi picked on that and implemented into the Heroes V second expansion as "alternate upgrades").

Heroes 5 has one major glaring problem: its campaigns. If Ubisoft picked upon the license, they didn't need to resource rebooting the series in another universe... and then a lot of what happens in the campaigns is downright idiotic or just ridiculous. Not to mention the voice-acting was sub-par at least. Other problem not so glaring is how the music stays so far in the background. The heroes series integrated the soundtracks with the mood, the towns, the combat, the terrain, and then having to settle with a soundtrack so mundane is disappointing (there are a couple of exceptions). Also, the campaigns, are, indeed, unmercifully hard. They did heard the complains and added an "easy" difficulty later. Completing them in the hardest setting is no slim task. Regardless of all that, the part that's been central of Heroes as a series stayed well made: the multiplayer experience. And now with good real 3D graphics to accompany it. The Hero progression is much more sleek, what with previously bad skills compressed into a skill specialty within another. The magic system was rebalanced to something much more balanced than it ever was (although some-game breakers remain), each town gets an exclusive skill, not only necropolis, and the gameplay became the most asymmetrical I've ever seem in a TBS game.

Now, I hope that Ubi picked upon their mistakes and endure to make a better game at the inevitable sequel (they seem to be able to wise up, as the expansions implemented some of the good ideas of Heroes 4 instead of ignoring it and the campaigns got considerably better than the vanilla.)

To anyone who's looking for lost CDs, you can pick Heroes 1, Heroes 2 gold and Heroes 3 Complete at Good Old Games (www.gog.com). Nice site, sells old games for very cheap and reconfigured to work on recent versions of windows.

[Cespenar]

While 3 is nothing short of a classic and really doesn't need much talking about, I found 4 pretty enjoyable too. You just have to realize that it's not a turn based strategy game but a RPG. Plus, the campaigns had great stories and actual writing, as opposed to the fifth, where I found myself lucky if I spotted two words together. Really, is it a game for the reading-impaired or what? Nevertheless, I played the fifth for a good time too, but got bored through the fourth campaign or so. Its combat and new skill system was somewhat fun, but that was it.

[toasty]

I did not know GOG had Heroes III... that is amazing. I should buy it.

[Neo Black]

I played HoMM 3. Man I loved that game. And still do, me and my brother would play hours with each other. Although I've never tried any of the other ones from what is said they seem to be rather good, might get around to getting one of them or something. Anyway yes Ihad the opporunity to play Heroes and I loved it

Neo

[GolemsVoice]

I only ever played HoMM V and it's expansions, and I must say I LOVE this game. It may be due to the fact that I never played any other Heroes, and thus have little to compare, but I found V to be beautiful in graphics, and even somewhat engaging in it's plot, and I really came to ike my protagonists, or dislike them. Though I tend to be a very slow player, and probably not suited for online play. And yes, the cheating AI DID anger me, but as far as I know they toned it down a little bit in the expansions (which REALLY add to the game, there was a time when there where no caravans, oh woe!)

[Poil]

Caravans might be the best thing added to the series ever, so much needless micromanagement disappeared when they showed up. It's just too bad that Heroes 5 screwed up and made them appear on the map. If you have more than a few dwellings and there is a choke point or two between them and the destination the result will be a stupid mess making you tear your hair out.

[Dhavaer]

I just got HoMMV today (along with Unreal Tournament 3 and Supreme Commander) and I have to say I really liked the new initiative system. Somehow it makes so much more sense.

[Vizzerdrix]

I still play HOMMII and it's expansion! Heck, most of my friends play it too.

I just wish I could mod it. I'd love to make a Steampunk Castle and units.

[Morty]

I just got HoMMV today (along with Unreal Tournament 3 and Supreme Commander) and I have to say I really liked the new initiative system. Somehow it makes so much more sense.

Yeah, the initiative system from HoMMV is great. It appears confusing at first, but once you read about it in the manual, it's perfectly simple.



I just wish I could mod it. I'd love to make a Steampunk Castle and units.

Heh. This reminds me of a heated argument I once had about the Forge town they wanted to add to HoMM3 in Armagedonn's Blade.

[Winthur]

Heh. This reminds me of a heated argument I once had about the Forge town they wanted to add to HoMM3 in Armagedonn's Blade.

They should. Conflux that replaced the Forge is ugly, unimaginitive and overpowered with minihydras on crack (Magic Elementals) and Phoenixes.

[Morty]

They should. Conflux that replaced the Forge is ugly, unimaginitive and overpowered with minihydras on crack (Magic Elementals) and Phoenixes.

Yeah, Conflux sucks. And though back then I was vehemently against it, Forge actually fits the Might and Magic universe pretty well. But I don't think adding it would be a good idea anyway. A hi-tech town would look out of place in HoMM3.

[Voldecanter]

I still play HOMMII and it's expansion! Heck, most of my friends play it too.

I just wish I could mod it. I'd love to make a Steampunk Castle and units.

Wow , I am glad to see there are still people who Like and Play that game ...It was the Best of the HOMM Series IMO (But 3 was close to the title ,...oh who am I kidding ?) .

[SandroTheMaster]

Yeah, Conflux sucks. And though back then I was vehemently against it, Forge actually fits the Might and Magic universe pretty well. But I don't think adding it would be a good idea anyway. A hi-tech town would look out of place in HoMM3.

Yes, they'd fit. If you also played the Might And Magic series, something like it would only make sense against the Kreegans. But the canon established that the rayguns are way too powerful and a faction that actually utilized it would be much more powerful than the others. However, it also establish that Kreegans only won over worlds because they were ridiculously numerous, and the inferno town doesn't even beat Stronghold in numbers, and loses squarely against the necropolis...

[Morty]

The problem is, when you put it in a multiplayer map not connected to the M&M universe, laser-using goblins, stinger-using ogres and zombies with chainsaws look somewhat strange compared to other using.

[Winthur]

Every single town loses squarely against the Necropolis, especially when it's commandered by Galthran controlled by an experienced human player.

Fix'd. :smalltongue:

[Mythestopheles]

I have HOMM3 with expansions, it's an awsome game for sure! I'm thinking of getting others from the series but haven't taken the time to do so yet.

[Gullara]

One of my favourite demos, back when I had to use my dad's PC to play anything -- I can still hear him screaming "Paul! Your games have put a virus on the computer again!", despite it not actually making sense -- was Heroes of Might and Magic 2.

lol, my dad did the same thing. Its funny how parents can be so ignorant. :smallbiggrin:

[Gamerlord]

I just was playing a round of HOMM III hotseat, 8 players enter a small map, no water, no underground, weak monsters, only 2 players have yet to be conquered. Conflux Vs. necropolis, Necropolis is winning, I'm necro! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Mythestopheles]

Out of curiosity, has anyone used the map editor at all? I tried, but it's pretty hard to make a nice looking map.

[Mando Knight]

They should. Conflux that replaced the Forge is ugly, unimaginitive and overpowered with minihydras on crack (Magic Elementals) and Phoenixes.

Glad I'm not the only one who despises the blasted Conflux. :smallyuk:

Out of curiosity, has anyone used the map editor at all? I tried, but it's pretty hard to make a nice looking map.
Map editors are notoriously hard to make maps look anywhere near decent. It gives me quite a bit of appreciation for the guys who have to write the random map generator code in these games whenever I think about it.

[Myrmex]

I've played 3 & 5, and 5 is awful. It's got super pretty graphics, but it has awful load times. It's similar to 3, but somehow, not as good.


HoMM3 was always my favorite in the series... I always played Necropolis and always kicked my friends' asses...

One of them described my strategy like the tiny snowball on top of the mountain... The Undead may take a while to get rolling, but when they do, good luck stopping me.

My experience with the Undead is exact opposite. Early game, necromancy makes them extremely powerful, but their late game units aren't terrific at all. The advantage they have is rapid expansion, and the most pwn combination artifact of all time.

[Mando Knight]

My experience with the Undead is exact opposite. Early game, necromancy makes them extremely powerful, but their late game units aren't terrific at all. The advantage they have is rapid expansion, and the most pwn combination artifact of all time.

Try maximizing your Necromancy skill... and annihilating your foes with endless waves of Skeletons. Really, the only thing that I can think of that would be more immediately potent would be a Warlock with Armageddon and a few throngs of Black Dragons.

[Eldan]

I tried the random map generator in Heroes V yesterday... I started underground and immediately found three chests that couldn't be reached because they were strategically surrounded by boulders, stalagmites and fungi :smallsigh:

[Zevox]

My experience with the Undead is exact opposite. Early game, necromancy makes them extremely powerful, but their late game units aren't terrific at all. The advantage they have is rapid expansion, and the most pwn combination artifact of all time.
Odd. Outside of Skeleton/Ghost Dragons (which are quite weak for tier-7 units), I find that the Necropolis has good late-game units. Dread Knights in particular are among the more powerful tier-6 units, especially given the two special effects they have (curse their target and/or deal double damage), and Liches are impressive ranged combatants who don't suffer from a melee penalty and are pretty durable. And Vampire Lords being able to resurrect themselves are just plain ridiculous in high numbers, sometimes being an even bigger threat than the higher-tier units. And with maxed out Nercomancy and a Necromantic Amplifier in your Necropolises you can get hoards of skeletons easily, which makes even them a threat.

Plus Animate Dead is a 3rd-level spell and much more easily obtained than Resurrection, which is 4th-level, which is quite handy if you ask me. Can make those undead go quite a long way, especially with a magic-oriented hero who has Earth Magic skill.

Zevox

[Gamerlord]

Two things:

1. I just won that match I mentioned, Necropolis IS pretty good.

2. What is this forge faction I hear about?

[Mando Knight]

Forge is a faction that was cut from HoMM3 in favor of the poorly-done Conflux faction. It would have brought in the Sci-Fi elements from the main Might & Magic series into the HoMM series. (No, they skipped straight from 3 to 5. What are you talking about?)

[Winthur]

My experience with the Undead is exact opposite. Early game, necromancy makes them extremely powerful, but their late game units aren't terrific at all.

You're doing it wrong. You need to "farm" Skeletons as efficiently as possible by taking as many battles as possible, preferrably with a few Expert Necromancy heroes. Then, no matter what, you will defeat everything late game with the SoD* of Skeletons. It's not that hard. You can even equip one hero with Vampire Lords solely, because a stack of Vampire Lords in sufficient numbers is basically a perpetuum mobile against living creatures. Liches are good shooters, Death Knights are one of the best 6th level units of all time... Sure, Ghost Dragons are lackluster, but at least they're cheap and they fly. Zombies and Wights are useless, and I just don't bother with recruiting them, unless it's some sort of emergency. (Sometimes I give Wraiths a try, once I have accumulated enough of them in my castle and have enough cash that it doesn't bother me) And like I said, Vampire Lords are ridiculously powerful with their ability to ressurect themselves, no retaliation, fast speed and good damage.

This is especially ridiculous when you're playing Fortress. Your units kick some major butt, but they rely a lot on the special abilities, but most of them - the most crucial one being the Mighty Gorgon's killing stare - don't work on undead. Even with high-level Tazar, Fortress is toast against properly managed Necropolis.

Just don't upgrade Skeletons (if you do and you have full army, you get only 2/3 of the Skeletons (but upgraded), so it isn't worth it). Take Galthran - he's the best necro hero in the game (some may argue about Isra, but Galthran is AWESOME early on and early game matters a lot, IMO). Win.

*SoD - Stack of Doom, not Shadow of Death. There was an awesome mission for Archibald Campaign in HOMM2 where you had to fight a peasant uprising. The map was swarmed with peasants. But you started with a Necromancer hero. This map is enormously fun, especially when your 2000 Skeletons get to the enemy's castle and hack his Titans like they're nothing. :smallbiggrin:

So, yeah, there's a reason why they ban Necropolis and Conflux in most tournaments. :smalltongue:


Can make those undead go quite a long way, especially with a magic-oriented hero who has Earth Magic skill.

I give Earth Magic to every main hero I have. It's essential, if only for Mass Slow.

[Gamerlord]

Isra Is actually pretty good, I won that match with her.

[Winthur]

I never said Isra is bad. If I had to pick a necromancer hero, I'd take Galthran first. If I couldn't (or didn't want to), Isra would be my second choice. Afterwards, maybe Tamika. Or Thant. Or Sandro - he's cool.

[Mando Knight]

I give Earth Magic to every main hero I have. It's essential, if only for Mass Slow.

I keep finding the Tome of Earth Magic. Implosion as one of your few 5th-level spells is amusing. Need a stack of almost anything but Black Dragons dead? Expert-rank Implosion. Cluster of foes near your Blacks? Meteor Swarm. Thirty-thousand Skeletons? Enough Implosions and ranged units will take them down.

'course, by the time I pick up the tome, I've already got other skills on all my main's slots...

[TheSummoner]

(I'm, assuming we're talking about 3 here).

I choose Sandro as my starting hero... I'm a pretty heavy magic player so his sorcery bonus is great for how I play. I try to give him all four magic types, but that doesn't always work out... Earth is definatly the most essential... water and air about on par, and fire not so much, but its nice to have.

I agree zombies are utter crap (given enough gold, I often toss them in the skeleton converter so they dont slow me down), but Wraiths are good against enemy heros, if only for the mana drain. Even if they aren't particularly powerful, theres nothing bad about having another moderatly fast flying unit.

[SandroTheMaster]

Dickish Necropolis Tactic: You have a powerful enemy caster at your gate. Throw at him a few waves of disposable heroes with nothing but 7 stacks of 1 wraith. Laugh hard as you forever lose your hotseat friend.

Sandro is one of the strongest heroes because of his strong cumulative bonus. Unless you're trying an (often overruled) undead combo, he's a solid choice for a magic main hero. (Crag Hack of Stronghold is similar, after getting a few levels under his banner and expert offense his creatures start dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage).

I like to have a full stack with the necropolis, though I usually don't buy all wraiths (I just keep a few to dish out mana-drain against Heroes, only full if money isn't a problem). About magic schools, it is better to take Earth and Air as your schools, as most of the Water and Fire buffs doesn't work at all on your troops (bless, prayer, bloodlust, frenzy) and these two already have the most powerful offensive spells (slow, implosion, lightning bolt, chain lightning, meteor shower, sorrow if I'm not mistaken, weakness) and the enhancements those have do work on your troops. Use the 2 saved skills to take intelligence for extra casting endurance and sorcery.

And I have to disagree about the Ghost Dragons. Although he is among the weakest tier 7 (with Phoenixes having extra growth and Archdevils still being on the same page of combat stats with the other tier 7, but low HP and damage) he has some special abilities that make him invaluable to the necropolis. Starting that he is the only Necropolis unit that can reach the other side of the battlefied in the first turn of combat, so he is the only one capable of blocking a ranged enemy in from even start shooting. Then he has a morale penalty to the enemy, which, unless you have the Spirit of Oppression, evens out the lack of morale from the undead. Finally he has the Aging special attack, which is incredibly strong if it procs, decreasing overall combat capacity and reducing the HP in half (using him to attack another Tier 7 is worth for that alone, but tier 6, 5 and sturdy 4 are also good targets). That's better than even the Gorgons' death gaze, if you capitalize on its effect.

[Ianuagonde]

I have HoMM 1, 2 and 3, and 2 is by far my favorite. The PoL expansion is very off balance IMHO. The Anduran set or Ghost units are pretty much auto-wins. The only way to stop either is if you opponents also have Ghosts.

[Winthur]

Then he has a morale penalty to the enemy, which, unless you have the Spirit of Oppression, evens out the lack of morale from the undead

Just to chime in - Spirit of Oppression doesn't work in evening out negative morale. This is where this Ghost Dragon attack gets better, but I'm unsure about it.


Sandro is one of the strongest heroes because of his strong cumulative bonus. Unless you're trying an (often overruled) undead combo, he's a solid choice for a magic main hero. (Crag Hack of Stronghold is similar, after getting a few levels under his banner and expert offense his creatures start dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage).

As much as I like Sandro because of the coolness that emanates through him in HOMM1-HOMM3, and I believe him to be a solid magic hero, he's hardly comparable to Crag Hack or Tazar's bonus. After all, Crag Hack can attack 7 monsters in one turn, and Tazar can laugh off 7 attacks per turn. Sandro has his bonuses only on one spell.
So Sandro is a good choice (like Malekith) if you want a magic hero, but I doubt he'd win against Crag Hack or Tazar's army.


Use the 2 saved skills to take intelligence for extra casting endurance and sorcery.

I wouldn't bother with Intelligence. There are usually enough wells on the map to replenish your mana. Since I prefer playing might heroes, I avoid Sorcery; it's good for spellcasters because it capitalizes on their high Spell Power.


And I have to disagree about the Ghost Dragons. Although he is among the weakest tier 7 (with Phoenixes having extra growth and Archdevils still being on the same page of combat stats with the other tier 7, but low HP and damage)

I wouldn't compare Ghost Dragons to Archdevils, and ESPECIALLY not to Phoenixes. Phoenixes are, in fact, horribly overpowered, with their immunity to fire, ressurection ability, fastest speed in the game and the double growth to the boot. Archdevils are a solid tier 7 unit, because while they haven't the best damage and HP in the world, they're extremely fast and they have no retaliation, which helps a lot in clearing the map.


Starting that he is the only Necropolis unit that can reach the other side of the battlefied in the first turn of combat, so he is the only one capable of blocking a ranged enemy in from even start shooting.

Sure, except that he doesn't damage the shooter stack all that much with his low attack and he's weak, so he dies easily on such a venture. :smallfrown:


Finally he has the Aging special attack, which is incredibly strong if it procs, decreasing overall combat capacity and reducing the HP in half (using him to attack another Tier 7 is worth for that alone, but tier 6, 5 and sturdy 4 are also good targets). That's better than even the Gorgons' death gaze, if you capitalize on its effect.

Blasphemy! :smalltongue:
The Mighty Gorgon's death stare has many advantages. First of all, it kills, it doesn't "weaken". It just plain kills. Second of all, this is one of the few units in the game whose special effect is stacked. Meaning that if you have 10 Mighty Gorgons in a stack and they attack, the game will check 10 times whether the Death Stare works. That's why Mighty Gorgons are so mighty, and I love to fight my enemies' level 7 units with an unit composed of level 5 Mighty Gorgons and just blast their stack to oblivion.

[TheSummoner]

You know... I've never really stopped to consider how powerful Crag Hack is...

Still, I'd much rather blast my problems away with mass slow, mass haste, and implosion for when I really need it. Then, when the battles coming to a close, restore my army by reviving any fallen undead (the important/expensive ones anyways)

[SandroTheMaster]

Just to chime in - Spirit of Oppression doesn't work in evening out negative morale. This is where this Ghost Dragon attack gets better, but I'm unsure about it.

I was saying that if you don't have the Spirit of Oppression as necro, the ghost dragon makes your morale disadvantage less impactful.


As much as I like Sandro because of the coolness that emanates through him in HOMM1-HOMM3, and I believe him to be a solid magic hero, he's hardly comparable to Crag Hack or Tazar's bonus. After all, Crag Hack can attack 7 monsters in one turn, and Tazar can laugh off 7 attacks per turn. Sandro has his bonuses only on one spell.
So Sandro is a good choice (like Malekith) if you want a magic hero, but I doubt he'd win against Crag Hack or Tazar's army.

Except you're just not considering that there's a reason they're called might heroes and magic heroes. Crag Hack is bound to be very poor at magic, and unless you go out of your way to get him half-way decent, he can't defend himself well against a magic hero. So that's where a magic hero with bonus to sorcery works well. Start of combat, necromancer goes first (because of Ghost Dragon, considering the armies aren't mixed) and casts mass slow. He wins one turn. Then he may cast, lets say, mass sorrow. Then 1-2 of Crag's creatures won't even act every turn. Cast a mass weakness and crag loses a good chunk of his damage bonus. Then proceed with damaging spells unless he has somehow managed to get his hands into effective counters, then you have to keep countering him and look for a spell he doesn't have a good counter.


I wouldn't bother with Intelligence. There are usually enough wells on the map to replenish your mana. Since I prefer playing might heroes, I avoid Sorcery; it's good for spellcasters because it capitalizes on their high Spell Power.

If you're going to really specialize in magic Intelligence will let you outlast the enemy hero's mana-pool in dragged battles, and since this was a response to the specialization of Expert in every Magic School, I pointed a more efficient alternative. Since hero-on-hero battles tend to last well past decent sized mana-pools, the skill will let you keep casting. I wasn't talking about the advantages in the adventure map... although some maps are pretty mana starved, only with the town to recover.


I wouldn't compare Ghost Dragons to Archdevils, and ESPECIALLY not to Phoenixes. Phoenixes are, in fact, horribly overpowered, with their immunity to fire, ressurection ability, fastest speed in the game and the double growth to the boot. Archdevils are a solid tier 7 unit, because while they haven't the best damage and HP in the world, they're extremely fast and they have no retaliation, which helps a lot in clearing the map.

Phoenixes are about as strong as Ghost Dragons, but with higher speed and lower damage. Their population bonus is the basically what makes them surpass the Ghost Dragons.

About Archdevils, lets compare stats:

Archdevil = Attack: 26/Defense: 28/Dmg: 30-40/HP: 200

Ghost Dragon = Attack: 19/ Defense: 17/Dmg: 25-50/ HP: 200

Notice how the Archdevil is inherently better, yes. The dragon has a higher damage that helps even it out a bit in the combat but the Arch have no retaliation to his advantage, effectively doubling his damage if they duel alone. But that wasn't the point of my statement, I was saying that they are at the bottom of Tier 7 power. 200 HP is too low. Damage is quite bellow average. And is extremely expensive. In a duel, the winner here depends whether the age procs or not, and how soon. But in a duel of the Archdevil against any other tier 7 the arch loses even with the retaliation advantage because he has a much lower HP (33% lower against some) and lesser damage.

Finally, notice how the Phoenix evens out with the creatures of her Tier: Although she has a double growth, her damage is the lowest and her HP is on par with the two lowest (Ghost Dragons and Archdevils), her stats are on par with the Ghost Dragon and she doesn't have an ability to practically double her effectiveness (ghost dragon's age and archdevil's no-retaliation) so she has her population doubled. It is still overpowered, I agree, but her real advantage is really the speed more than anything.


Sure, except that he doesn't damage the shooter stack all that much with his low attack and he's weak, so he dies easily on such a venture. :smallfrown:

Unless the shooter is a Titan, he WILL suffer. 1 Attack from a tier 7 severely weakens any shooter, even if it is just Ghost Dragons. And the objective here isn't actually attacking the shooter, but just blocking him for the first few turns. Preferably, attack a stack close to the shooter to try triggering aging.


Blasphemy! :smalltongue:
The Mighty Gorgon's death stare has many advantages. First of all, it kills, it doesn't "weaken". It just plain kills. Second of all, this is one of the few units in the game whose special effect is stacked. Meaning that if you have 10 Mighty Gorgons in a stack and they attack, the game will check 10 times whether the Death Stare works. That's why Mighty Gorgons are so mighty, and I love to fight my enemies' level 7 units with an unit composed of level 5 Mighty Gorgons and just blast their stack to oblivion.

Yes, but it kills 1 creature to every ~10 mighty gorgons, a creature with a growth of 5. It is nice against Tier 7, but you rely on the Gorgons attacking first, before having their numbers dimmed and losing the effectiveness of their death Gaze. The Ghost Dragon proc effectively drops the target stack to half, in terms of endurance. And is just as effective regardless of the target's Tier and the Ghost Dragons' numbers. 2000 Pikemen will be down from 20000 HP to 10000 HP. 20 Black Dragons will go from 6000 HP to 3000 HP. Once you capitalize on this weakness with your other stacks, especially the Skeletons and Dread Knights, you can decimate a powerful stack and all it takes is a single proc that throws HP balance out of the window.

[Winthur]

Except you're just not considering that there's a reason they're called might heroes and magic heroes. Crag Hack is bound to be very poor at magic, and unless you go out of your way to get him half-way decent, he can't defend himself well against a magic hero. So that's where a magic hero with bonus to sorcery works well. Start of combat, necromancer goes first (because of Ghost Dragon, considering the armies aren't mixed) and casts mass slow. He wins one turn. Then he may cast, lets say, mass sorrow. Then 1-2 of Crag's creatures won't even act every turn. Cast a mass weakness and crag loses a good chunk of his damage bonus. Then proceed with damaging spells unless he has somehow managed to get his hands into effective counters, then you have to keep countering him and look for a spell he doesn't have a good counter.

You're acting as if might heroes are incapable of casting any magic. They can. Crag Hack can get enough spell power and knowledge - mainly with artifacts, though - to manage a good enough ability to cast. It's not that hard to get Expert Magic with a hero, and in fact Barbarians are very likely to get Earth Magic, which is great.

What is more likely to happen is that first we have a "tactical" round. Might heroes have a higher chance of getting Tactics (which is an awesome skill), so Crag will probably get to establish a huge lead before the battle even starts. Sandro casts Mass Slow. Crag replies with Mass Dispel/Mass Haste and proceeds to move towards Sandro. With his huge attack power, he will rip through Sandro's armies, which barely have any Attack/Defense stats thanks to him being a magic hero. Let me remind you - magic can be cast once per turn, so once Mass Slow is somehow countered, Sandro is pretty much toast. Or he would be, if it wasn't for the fact that by the time of final battle he should have over 9000 skeletons. :smalltongue:

But most of the time that's how the routine goes for Might vs Magic heroes. It's especially devastating with Crag and Ancient Behemoths that deal enormous damage to the enemy.

Implosion? It is powerful, but it also requires a long game and luck with mage guilds.


If you're going to really specialize in magic Intelligence will let you outlast the enemy hero's mana-pool in dragged battles, and since this was a response to the specialization of Expert in every Magic School, I pointed a more efficient alternative. Since hero-on-hero battles tend to last well past decent sized mana-pools, the skill will let you keep casting. I wasn't talking about the advantages in the adventure map... although some maps are pretty mana starved, only with the town to recover.

Since I'm playing Might heroes (I love Magic heroes as scouts, though), I have only enough MP points to use Mass Slow, Mass Haste, Mass Sorrow, Mass Blind, etc, reach the enemy and pummel him to the ground, which is especially devastating if the enemy is a Magic hero with stats like 1/2/10/10. So that mana helps only during a prolonged Mage-on-Mage battle. Or those mana starved maps. But heroes like Elleshar are pretty redundant in that matter; how often do you need 2k mana points?


Notice how the Archdevil is inherently better, yes. The dragon has a higher damage that helps even it out a bit in the combat but the Arch have no retaliation to his advantage, effectively doubling his damage if they duel alone. But that wasn't the point of my statement, I was saying that they are at the bottom of Tier 7 power. 200 HP is too low. Damage is quite bellow average. And is extremely expensive. In a duel, the winner here depends whether the age procs or not, and how soon. But in a duel of the Archdevil against any other tier 7 the arch loses even with the retaliation advantage because he has a much lower HP (33% lower against some) and lesser damage.

Sure, Archdevil loses against most Tier 7 (I wouldn't say he would fail against a Ghost Dragon or a Chaos Hydra). But on the other hand, look at the big picture. Masses of Demons and well-stated Pit Lords, as well as powerful flying Efreeti Sultans, should be your primary bread & butter. What does the Archdevil give you? Initiative in battle, a fairly powerful attack against shooters, and he's very useful at clearing out mobs on the map.

In fact, if you're so inclined, a hero with a few Archdevils + Spirit of Oppression is capable of defeating a lot of "adventure map" creeps. He just Waits, flies up to them, strikes the stack down, the hero helps him along with some spells in the meantime. Although it might take long, it is possible with certain cases. 1 Archdevil can hack through hordes of Dwarves or Zombies, if you're determined enough to keep this hit&run charade.


Yes, but it kills 1 creature to every ~10 mighty gorgons, a creature with a growth of 5. It is nice against Tier 7, but you rely on the Gorgons attacking first, before having their numbers dimmed and losing the effectiveness of their death Gaze. The Ghost Dragon proc effectively drops the target stack to half, in terms of endurance. And is just as effective regardless of the target's Tier and the Ghost Dragons' numbers. 2000 Pikemen will be down from 20000 HP to 10000 HP. 20 Black Dragons will go from 6000 HP to 3000 HP. Once you capitalize on this weakness with your other stacks, especially the Skeletons and Dread Knights, you can decimate a powerful stack and all it takes is a single proc that throws HP balance out of the window.

First of all, Fortress is pretty likely to get the initiative thanks to their Tier 3 unit, the Dragon Flies. So it's likely they will hit first.
Second of all, Beastmasters, especially my favourite Tazar, have really high Defense stats and preferrably Expert Armorer, making the "making numbers dimmed" less of an issue. If you play a Witch, you're screwed.
Third, while aging is powerful, it comes up way too rare for it to matter to me that much. When it hits, it CAN be a tide-turner, but if it doesn't? Mighty Gorgon's death stare is a lot more reliable.

I agree that it's a powerful effect. But then again, Fortress has a very solid 5 level unit that even with stats alone is powerful. It's much better in quantity than a Ghost Dragon. It's easier to find a 5th level dwelling than a 7th level dwelling.

[Poil]

In Heroes 4 the death gaze was renamed stone gaze, improved and given to the Chaos unit Medusa which is ranged and has unlimited ammo with no melee penalty. In case you didn't know, and wondered how Gorgons could get even more fun to use. :smallsmile:

I can't believe no one has mentioned the most hilariously awesome spell in the game, Berserk. The target goes berserk and attacks the closest stack (which will be a friendly in most cases) and with expert fire magic it's a 5x5 area to it. Obviously it's not the best spell in the game, being situational and not working on undead and so on, but winning a battle by watching the enemy army destroy itself is quite entertaining.

Personally I prefer to play Dungeon with Gunnar the logistics specializing minotaur with a rocket horse zooming across the map leaving his enemies choking on dust and stunned from the bangs when he repeatably breaks the sound barrier. :smallcool:

[Vonriel]

I can't believe no one has mentioned the most hilariously awesome spell in the game, Frenzy. The target goes berserk and attacks the closest stack (which will be a friendly in most cases) and with expert fire magic it's a 5x5 area to it. Obviously it's not the best spell in the game, being situational and not working on undead and so on, but winning a battle by watching the enemy army destroy itself is quite entertaining.

You got your spells mixed up a bit here. The spell you're enjoying so much is actually called berserk. Frenzy is the spell that takes the unit's defense and adds it to its attack, reducing defense to zero. At expert, it's got a better than one-to-one ratio, and I've seen naga queens with upwards of 100 attack strength. That is fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Poil]

Oops. Fixed it, thanks.

Yeah that's the kind of spells that are fun to use. Not the ultimate uber spells but the ones that simply are awesome.

[Winthur]

Not the ultimate uber spells but the ones that simply are awesome.

Like Clone + a stack of Archangels. :smallbiggrin:

[TheSummoner]

You're acting as if might heroes are incapable of casting any magic. They can. Crag Hack can get enough spell power and knowledge - mainly with artifacts, though - to manage a good enough ability to cast. It's not that hard to get Expert Magic with a hero, and in fact Barbarians are very likely to get Earth Magic, which is great.

What is more likely to happen is that first we have a "tactical" round. Might heroes have a higher chance of getting Tactics (which is an awesome skill), so Crag will probably get to establish a huge lead before the battle even starts. Sandro casts Mass Slow. Crag replies with Mass Dispel/Mass Haste and proceeds to move towards Sandro. With his huge attack power, he will rip through Sandro's armies, which barely have any Attack/Defense stats thanks to him being a magic hero. Let me remind you - magic can be cast once per turn, so once Mass Slow is somehow countered, Sandro is pretty much toast. Or he would be, if it wasn't for the fact that by the time of final battle he should have over 9000 skeletons. :smalltongue:

But most of the time that's how the routine goes for Might vs Magic heroes. It's especially devastating with Crag and Ancient Behemoths that deal enormous damage to the enemy.

Implosion? It is powerful, but it also requires a long game and luck with mage guilds.


Since I'm playing Might heroes (I love Magic heroes as scouts, though), I have only enough MP points to use Mass Slow, Mass Haste, Mass Sorrow, Mass Blind, etc, reach the enemy and pummel him to the ground, which is especially devastating if the enemy is a Magic hero with stats like 1/2/10/10. So that mana helps only during a prolonged Mage-on-Mage battle. Or those mana starved maps. But heroes like Elleshar are pretty redundant in that matter; how often do you need 2k mana points?.

Crag Hack is going to get expert earth, water, and air? (slow, dispel, and haste)?

I can see where you're coming from saying he could get some magic, but I really doubt a might hero would go for all of that. Good luck teaching him some of the better spells.

Crag casts mass slow, Sandro counters with mass haste. Next round, Sandro has the initive since his units all have haste and slows Crag's units. Crag can either haste his or slow Sandros... either way they're all on the same level now (not sure which army has faster units... been a while since I've played, so how the process continues is up in the air...). Sandro's masses battle on, whenever he feels the urge, he revives the fallen to have them fight again... again (UNundead!). Crag likely cannot do this since his town is limited to level 3 magic. Even if he managed to learn it through a different Town, Sandro has a larger mana pool and can keep it up longer. Toss in an implosion here and there to take out the behemoths or cyclopes.


Sure, Archdevil loses against most Tier 7 (I wouldn't say he would fail against a Ghost Dragon or a Chaos Hydra). But on the other hand, look at the big picture. Masses of Demons and well-stated Pit Lords, as well as powerful flying Efreeti Sultans, should be your primary bread & butter. What does the Archdevil give you? Initiative in battle, a fairly powerful attack against shooters, and he's very useful at clearing out mobs on the map..

Eh, look at the big picture with Necropolis... tons and tons of skeletons, mana draining T3 (weak units but a useful skill), A T4 that restores health upon attacking and can't be countered (rendering it essentially unkillable in high enough numbers), a powerful T5 ranged unit with a nice little death cloud that your own units are conveniently immune to, and arguably the best T6 in the game (some would debate Naga queens being better). Zombies suck and Ghost dragons are lackluster, but considering what else you get, its still a sweet deal.

[Myrmex]

Try maximizing your Necromancy skill... and annihilating your foes with endless waves of Skeletons. Really, the only thing that I can think of that would be more immediately potent would be a Warlock with Armageddon and a few throngs of Black Dragons.

Ehh, even a huge stack of skeletons isn't that great when they get imploded/slowed/kited. The real power of undead is getting their combo artifact, which turns animated skeletons into liches. Then it's pew pew gg.


Odd. Outside of Skeleton/Ghost Dragons (which are quite weak for tier-7 units), I find that the Necropolis has good late-game units. Dread Knights in particular are among the more powerful tier-6 units, especially given the two special effects they have (curse their target and/or deal double damage), and Liches are impressive ranged combatants who don't suffer from a melee penalty and are pretty durable. And Vampire Lords being able to resurrect themselves are just plain ridiculous in high numbers, sometimes being an even bigger threat than the higher-tier units. And with maxed out Nercomancy and a Necromantic Amplifier in your Necropolises you can get hoards of skeletons easily, which makes even them a threat.

Plus Animate Dead is a 3rd-level spell and much more easily obtained than Resurrection, which is 4th-level, which is quite handy if you ask me. Can make those undead go quite a long way, especially with a magic-oriented hero who has Earth Magic skill.

Zevox

Well, the thing is, you get to T6 before anyone else does, since you're early game is awesome. However, Vamp Lords & Knights are both pretty costly, and quite frail. Vamp Lords are great for creeping, but enemy players prioritize them.

And Animate Dead as a level 3 spell IS awesome.


I have a boner for undead.

Do you play against real players? Or just computers?
Undead are super powerful, no doubt, but I'd say it's more a product of getting tons of super cheap units for free that makes creeping easy. In PvP, 1200 skeletons is noticeably worse, since you have to face level 5 spells and kiting.

I played huge maps with games that lasted weeks, with 3 or 4 human players. The edge huge armies of weak units give you over other players are greatly diminished when everyone is dimension dooring and clearing Dragon Utopias.

[Winthur]

Crag Hack is going to get expert earth, water, and air? (slow, dispel, and haste)?

No, I never said so. I am a fervent believer in the philosophy that a hero never needs more than 2 schools of magic. 1 is enough, 2 is great, 3 is okay but not that necessary, 4 - definite overkill. Why bother with all magics when it's more efficient to get that Armorer, Logistics, Tactics or Resistance?

I can see where you're coming from saying he could get some magic, but I really doubt a might hero would go for all of that. Good luck teaching him some of the better spells.

What "better" spells are we talking about? Wait, you don't mean... There are spells better than Mass Slow, Mass Haste, Mass Bless, Mass Curse, Mass Sorrow... AND I NEVER KNEW THAT? :smalleek: :smalltongue:


Crag casts mass slow, Sandro counters with mass haste. Next round, Sandro has the initive since his units all have haste and slows Crag's units. Crag can either haste his or slow Sandros... either way they're all on the same level now (not sure which army has faster units... been a while since I've played, so how the process continues is up in the air...). Sandro's masses battle on, whenever he feels the urge, he revives the fallen to have them fight again... again (UNundead!). Crag likely cannot do this since his town is limited to level 3 magic. Even if he managed to learn it through a different Town, Sandro has a larger mana pool and can keep it up longer. Toss in an implosion here and there to take out the behemoths or cyclopes.

There are many things wrong with that scenario. First of all, you aren't going to be the first to cast the spell if you don't think you can reap immediate value out of it, that's a bad idea. Now, if Mass Slow lets me take the initiative and kill Sandro's units before he can even cast his spell (because, for example, I've Expert Tactics and went forward while my opponent didn't, so I can reach him now with most of my army at the first turn), then OK, I'd definitely cast that at my first round. But then it leaves our poor mage with most of his army devastated before he could even make a move, and there isn't much the mage can do to salvate himself. There isn't such thing as a Mass Ressurect or Mass Animate Dead... And if it doesn't, then I'd wait with my spell and cast it only after Sandro tried to harm me or bolster himself, so I can counter. (like you cast Mass Bless when the opponent Mass Curses, Haste against Slow, etc.).

You're not taking into account the fact that might hero stats GREATLY outweigh those of the magician. Given that a full army has 7 stacks of monsters, and each of their attacks is magnified by a might hero's great bonus, which against magic hero's paltry stats is like a 16-ton weight against an assailant with raspberries.

You're assuming that Crag has no access to more than level 3 spells (but does he need to? Mass X FTW!), yet you assume that Sandro gets Implosion. Relying your strategy upon a largely random effect of getting the "right" spell in the mage guild isn't likely to work, unless you're one of those crazy people who mix their Time Wizzy with a BEUD OTK. (...crap, wrong game.) And I don't get Implosion often in my initial castle even when I'm playing Tower!

So, Sandro has a higher mana pool, but I don't see him having a big chance in "keeping it up" for a longer time than his opponent. Crag has 7 stacks with heavily pumped up stats; I believe that it's a lot more damage per turn than Sandro with his 1 spell per turn can heal or dish out in return with his spells. Furthermore, Crag has his own spells, too.

And what happens when artifacts come into play? Some of them can restrict magic a lot, if not outright nullify them.

IMHO, Sandro should rely more on the fact that his imba skeleton "20 hatch Ultraling 5/3 200/200" combined with the Vampire-Lord-on-Contra-Code and Giga Death Knight Breaker attack allows him to defeat the might hero this way. Or he should strike early. Because I believe that a good mage with a good spell and high spell power is capable of defeating a might hero early on; those stacks of his don't get so much extra damage, and a well placed Lightning Bolt hurts a lot more early on than Implosion later on.


Ehh, even a huge stack of skeletons isn't that great when they get imploded/slowed/kited. The real power of undead is getting their combo artifact, which turns animated skeletons into liches. Then it's pew pew gg.

You're assuming that the necro doesn't have any counter for any of those effects, or that he's too slow to accumulate enough numbers of Skeletons. The artifact combo is rare and doesn't happen every game, so Necro relies mainly on the basics; yet his town is still banned in the multiplayer leagues.


Well, the thing is, you get to T6 before anyone else does, since you're early game is awesome. However, Vamp Lords & Knights are both pretty costly, and quite frail. Vamp Lords are great for creeping, but enemy players prioritize them.

Wrong. The first one to get to T6 are Fortress most of the time; they can get to their Wyverns within the first day if there's enough wood. Knights aren't frail at all; they're one of the most statted creatures in the game. Vampire Lords, with their "Ressurection - apply directly to the stack" special ability aren't frail at all, unless their opponents aren't living.


Do you play against real players? Or just computers?
Undead are super powerful, no doubt, but I'd say it's more a product of getting tons of super cheap units for free that makes creeping easy. In PvP, 1200 skeletons is noticeably worse, since you have to face level 5 spells and kiting.

I played huge maps with games that lasted weeks, with 3 or 4 human players. The edge huge armies of weak units give you over other players are greatly diminished when everyone is dimension dooring and clearing Dragon Utopias.

What? I'm sorry to say, but yes, I played against real players a lot, on Hot Seat (that's what this game was made for, many would argue), and even a few games on Gamespy (not too much). I also picked up a lot of lore from multiplayer community.

The fact is, my "boner for undead" is just the facts, ma'am. (And that sounds gross. It makes me appear gay for Edward Cullen, and I will NEVER forgive you for making this assumption.) Any good player I saw was capable of massing those Skeleton armies in under a month. That's because they creeped efficiently, calculated their abilities and managed to clear out the map faster than their opponents. The effect, as always, is a one-sided fight where Skeletons play the first tune. Yes, even on those XL maps. With Dragon Utopias, you get powerful artifacts which can even enhance Skeletons' combat prowess. With Dimension Door, you can creep that much more efficiently and therefore get even MORE skeletons. With the rest of your army's backbone being pretty decent, you smother everyone.

The bigger the map is, it favors Necropolis more due to their "snowball" tactic. You kill more -> you get more units -> you kill more. It's on small maps that Necro might get killed by a properly set up rush where his skeleton armies aren't that huge yet.

[Myrmex]

RE: Crag Hack.

What do you do vs. Blind/Confuse? A caster hero with a bigger mana pool will be able to keep a little under half your army always disabled, while they can just kite around with super fast units until you're OoM.


The fact is, my "boner for undead" is just the facts, ma'am. (And that sounds gross. It makes me appear gay for Edward Cullen, and I will NEVER forgive you for making this assumption.) Any good player I saw was capable of massing those Skeleton armies in under a month. That's because they creeped efficiently, calculated their abilities and managed to clear out the map faster than their opponents. The effect, as always, is a one-sided fight where Skeletons play the first tune. Yes, even on those XL maps. With Dragon Utopias, you get powerful artifacts which can even enhance Skeletons' combat prowess. With Dimension Door, you can creep that much more efficiently and therefore get even MORE skeletons. With the rest of your army's backbone being pretty decent, you smother everyone.

The bigger the map is, it favors Necropolis more due to their "snowball" tactic. You kill more -> you get more units -> you kill more. It's on small maps that Necro might get killed by a properly set up rush where his skeleton armies aren't that huge yet.

Um, that's exactly the point I was making. Snowballing undead is awesome for early game. By the time you're 100 or 200 turns in, the skeletons aren't as impressive, since someone's going to have a sorcery/intelligence/orb of earth imploding SOB.

It's just that you get to that point EARLIER, since you're getting free units.

[Winthur]

What do you do vs. Blind/Confuse? A caster hero with a bigger mana pool will be able to keep a little under half your army always disabled, while they can just kite around with super fast units until you're OoM.

A might hero has just enough spell points to retaliate against those. You're talking under the assumption that the Might hero is just a Magic hero, only without spells, or what?

So, what does a Magic hero do against the fact that a properly played Might hero (we don't even have to resort to Crag...) is capable of shredding the magician's army to pieces with retaliation strikes alone? :smalltongue:


Um, that's exactly the point I was making. Snowballing undead is awesome for early game. By the time you're 100 or 200 turns in, the skeletons aren't as impressive, since someone's going to have a sorcery/intelligence/orb of earth imploding SOB.

...The only problem is that a good necro player on huge maps is capable of having a ton of skeletons. I even witnessed such feats as 1k skeletons in week 3. Since he's creeping so fast and getting so much army, he might get to his enemies before they have all this stuff. He might also get a proper artifact to nullify those effects whatsoever. How powerful of an implosion do you need to nullify such a mass of them?

[TheSummoner]

And god help you all if that Necropolis player captures a conflux early... An additional 50 skeletons per week dirt cheap. That and I got my magic faster than usual... Oh god that was a good map for me ^_^

[Gamerlord]

I won yet another match with Necro, I love the smell of 400+ skellies in the morning! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: And I did it in 1 in-game month!

[SandroTheMaster]

As I argued, the Ghost Dragon aging keeps on full effect regardless of how many GD you have, while the MG is relative to the number of MG you have. If you manage to keep a stack alive just to attack retaliation-less stacks, you can be sure to proc it a few times.

Furthermore, Slow is less of an issue to the Necropolis (who actually would rather you come to them) than it is for barbarian (who relies on speed and maneuvering). You don't need implosion either. Meteor Shower or Chain Lightning is good enough to severely weaken a barbarian's army. And unless the barbarian specializes in Water, he can't get hid of Mass Sorrow. The act here is that a magic hero will probably have the spells (since it is rare for a Barbarian hero to get Wisdom) to play with the barbarian army. Mass Curse also severely weakens a Barbarian's effectiveness. Finally, it is advisable to not fight an enemy hero until you can have SOME idea of his spell selection and skills. A secondary hero with a weak but annoying army and half-way decent spells is good for that (wraiths). In the end, dragging the battle is the trick. Mass Slow, Mass Sorrow, Mass Shield, Mass Stone skin, are good for that, as well as Mass weakness. But a few well-placed damage spells early on is good too. Wolves and Goblins are strong when used offensively, but their wimpy HP makes them prime targets for damaging spells. If you're lucky, you can try going for Blind and Berserk in fire magic (better to check you get these before going for it), turning his strength against him. A magic hero has many weapons depending on spells available while a might hero is limited both in the skill selection and magic available. Granted, the earlier a magic hero attacks, the better, as Damage Spells get progressively weaker against larger armies and while the extra accumulated Spell Power is only additive, the extra Attack the Barbarians get is always multiplied through the army, and gets better as the army gets bigger.

[Myrmex]

A might hero has just enough spell points to retaliate against those. You're talking under the assumption that the Might hero is just a Magic hero, only without spells, or what?

So, what does a Magic hero do against the fact that a properly played Might hero (we don't even have to resort to Crag...) is capable of shredding the magician's army to pieces with retaliation strikes alone? :smalltongue:

I mean with confuse up, you lose control of half your army. Then I just move around a super fast unit and blast stacks of your stuff with a spell and keep putting up stuff like blind & confuse on your stuff until you can no longer take it down because I will have at least 3x the mana you've got.

Caster heroes are ridiculous. Dimension Door & Town Portal are pretty gg.


...The only problem is that a good necro player on huge maps is capable of having a ton of skeletons. I even witnessed such feats as 1k skeletons in week 3. Since he's creeping so fast and getting so much army, he might get to his enemies before they have all this stuff. He might also get a proper artifact to nullify those effects whatsoever. How powerful of an implosion do you need to nullify such a mass of them?

I'm not that good of a player. One friend is a lot better than me, and the other has insane luck and plays Elves for treasuries. He gets mad cash.

[Winthur]

As I argued, the Ghost Dragon aging keeps on full effect regardless of how many GD you have, while the MG is relative to the number of MG you have. If you manage to keep a stack alive just to attack retaliation-less stacks, you can be sure to proc it a few times.

But that means GD has a very low chance, once per his attack, to age his opponent. Meanwhile, with a good stack of Mighty Gorgons, you're sure to insta-kill at least one of your opponents units. And you can kill a lot more with just that stare alone, making it that much more reliable. Aging is a good effect, but it just comes up too rare. This is a much more sound strategy to unleash your Mighty Gorgons against 7 level units and kill some of them right away than attack with the Ghost Dragon and hope that this one time you get to age your opponent.


Caster heroes are ridiculous. Dimension Door & Town Portal are pretty gg.

And once again, you are basing under the assumption that Might heroes aren't capable of casting those spells.


I mean with confuse up, you lose control of half your army. Then I just move around a super fast unit and blast stacks of your stuff with a spell and keep putting up stuff like blind & confuse on your stuff until you can no longer take it down because I will have at least 3x the mana you've got.

Sure, those spells are powerful, but you're talking about some sort of utopia where the mage gets all the necessary spells to defeat his opponent and his enemy doesn't have any counter against it, so he can't even reach his opponent's units. How about when you don't have those spells, because lady luck - which is how the spells in mage guilds, scrolls, etc. are randomized, by sheer chance - is a harsh mistress? How about when the might hero has some artifacts? How about he has the initiative and manages to reach your units and destroy most of your stacks? How about the might hero having just the sufficient means to neutralize all those nasty effects?

Spells like Implosion cost a lot and can be resisted. The low mana cost spells are the best, because everyone can cast them and they're just more effective.

Might heroes ALSO can cast all the spells Magic heroes can. Less effectively, but they make up for it with their edge in A/D stats.


The act here is that a magic hero will probably have the spells (since it is rare for a Barbarian hero to get Wisdom)

It is rare for a barbarian hero who is either
1: underleveled;
2: played by a newbie;

EVERY might hero has a guaranteed chance of getting Wisdom on level 6 at the least. And it's pretty essential to have those spells.


A magic hero has many weapons depending on spells available while a might hero is limited both in the skill selection and magic available.

...What? It seems to me that it's the other way around: that all the proponents of the "ultimate magic hero" try to give him all the schools of magic and all the +mana perks. Not only is this redundant (do you really need all magic schools on Expert?), it can reduce you to a complete wimp when the enemy has the Orb of Annihilation (or how was the magic-banning artifact was called...). Meanwhile, the Might hero has a high chance to get Tactics, which is enormously useful in any situation and allows you to reduce your losses by a lot. A Might hero ALSO can get those Expert Magics, it's not even that hard for him. A Might hero has a lesser chance to get the useless Eagle Eye or Mysticism skills.

[MickJay]

I've played all of the games in the series (including King's Bounty, which was a precursor to HoM&M), and I have to agree that in the third, a might hero with Expert in any school of magic would have a significant edge over a caster hero. Damage spells are good for early and mid-level game, but the various blessings/curses are the way to go after that. There are many ways to negate or weaken magic (especially the high-level spells), but there's no good counter against attack/defense bonuses or Tactics.

[SandroTheMaster]

It is rare for a barbarian hero who is either
1: underleveled;
2: played by a newbie;

EVERY might hero has a guaranteed chance of getting Wisdom on level 6 at the least. And it's pretty essential to have those spells.

Essential to have 3rd level spells that'll take the cost of a dwindling mana-pool. If you think wasting a skill of a might hero with wisdom when he can get so little from it, that's your opinion...


...What? It seems to me that it's the other way around: that all the proponents of the "ultimate magic hero" try to give him all the schools of magic and all the +mana perks. Not only is this redundant (do you really need all magic schools on Expert?), it can reduce you to a complete wimp when the enemy has the Orb of Annihilation (or how was the magic-banning artifact was called...). Meanwhile, the Might hero has a high chance to get Tactics, which is enormously useful in any situation and allows you to reduce your losses by a lot. A Might hero ALSO can get those Expert Magics, it's not even that hard for him. A Might hero has a lesser chance to get the useless Eagle Eye or Mysticism skills.

I meant options in magic. A might hero can only count on being offered the elemental skill of his castle's favored school, other than that he needs some luck to be offered any other magic school at all.

Also the Orb of Inhibition is absurdly overpowered. It renders Magic Heroes pretty much helpless as it renders completely useless HALF the primary skills (the ones that a Magic hero gets). There's not even an artifact that renders Attack and Defense useless. When that artifact was created as a concept it was a major oversight. MAJOR. Relying your strategy on such an artifact with a might hero is about as low (or lower) than the Wraith cheat I pointed earlier. Bringing it up doesn't help your argument at all. Doesn't matter how you specialize your Magic Hero, if the enemy hero has the Orb of Inhibition you are majorly screwed. That's one of the reasons I like 5. For hotseat, it is the best to play, as it is unquestionably the most balanced (with both expansions installed).

Plus, as I said, a magic hero is at his best when he attacks earlier. Ridiculously large maps aren't that great for them. The ideal is to get at the enemy's gates by month 2, maybe month 3, as magic heroes are also better at conserving troops and the difference between armies will be at its peak. Also, you're not considering a Magic hero might pick some might skills as well (out Sorcery, Wisdom and 2 magic school skills, he still has 4 skills slots), and it is very possible for a magic hero to have Tactics too, but mostly to counter a Might Hero's Tactics.

That said, a Magic hero is the one with a better chance to defeat hopelessly overmatched battles, be it against hugely powerful Wandering Monsters or another hero with more castles than him. A might hero against another might hero the one with a larger army is at a higher advantage. While a magic hero has a chance depending on how you manipulate the combat.

[Wolfscarab]

Oh God, I LOVE this game series, It is so awesome!

Started with HoM&M2 and have played the number ones sence, currenlty on 5 atm, and I have both the expansion packs, and I have to say, the dwarves or the dungeon(I think thats the right name) Are my favorite teams. Dwarfs are freaking powerful when it comes to deffense, trying to seige one of there towns in infurieting at times, expecialy if they have that one building that adds to there units.

I used to like the Acadamy team... but... I always lost with them...

Anyway, I am curious to know if anybody else who has played through the story mode... if anybody else had trouble with the Necromancer's tale... the mission where he has to conquer several Acadamy towns to make an artifact... I can't seem to get past it...

(And Yes, I do realize that my grammer is... horrible to say the least...)

[Poil]

Especially since you spell it "grammar". :smalltongue:


That's one of the reasons I like 5. For hotseat, it is the best to play, as it is unquestionably the most balanced (with both expansions installed).

Possibly. There are so many ridiculously strong things that they sort of balance out each other. With some being obviously stronger such as Zoltan, the hero who has a decent chance to block any spell you cast preventing you from using it again during that battle. Also he is from Necropolis.

[Winthur]

Essential to have 3rd level spells that'll take the cost of a dwindling mana-pool. If you think wasting a skill of a might hero with wisdom when he can get so little from it, that's your opinion...

No. From my experience, in a well played game, my hero will have quite a high level and a whole bunch of artifacts, especially because might heroes are a lot faster in clearing things like Dwarven Treasuries or Crypts. I never have "dwindling mana pool" problems solely because of the artifacts.


I meant options in magic. A might hero can only count on being offered the elemental skill of his castle's favored school, other than that he needs some luck to be offered any other magic school at all.

Like I said, I hardly ever need more than 2 magic schools. So it's a non issue for me. All expert schools have very useful tools for any hero.


Also the Orb of Inhibition is absurdly overpowered. It renders Magic Heroes pretty much helpless as it renders completely useless HALF the primary skills (the ones that a Magic hero gets). There's not even an artifact that renders Attack and Defense useless. When that artifact was created as a concept it was a major oversight. MAJOR. Relying your strategy on such an artifact with a might hero is about as low (or lower) than the Wraith cheat I pointed earlier. Bringing it up doesn't help your argument at all. Doesn't matter how you specialize your Magic Hero, if the enemy hero has the Orb of Inhibition you are majorly screwed.

So what? This is a pretty rare artifact, isn't it? If I went through half of the map, killed many Utopias and all in all fought many battles and got that, should I just discard it? Why? Unless I had an agreement with my opponent, I'd use whatever means I have to win. Not to mention that the Orb isn't going to come up in every single game. Not to mention that against another might hero, it won't make that much of a difference. Plus, as you said, magic heroes become a lot weaker the later the game is. I don't see any way to get the Orb in the early game, when it's most of the time in the center of a full Utopia or other area full of enemies.

Orb of Inhibition is just one of the MANY options that Might hero has to pummel the magician into the ground.


Also, you're not considering a Magic hero might pick some might skills as well (out Sorcery, Wisdom and 2 magic school skills, he still has 4 skills slots), and it is very possible for a magic hero to have Tactics too, but mostly to counter a Might Hero's Tactics.

No, I'm considering it all the time. However, remember that a Magic hero has a lot smaller chance to get those skills. Then, I remind you that the "ultimate" Magic hero proposed here was some sort of dud with all 4 expert magics. Also, remember that with low A/D stats of a magician (which aren't so easily pumped up with artifacts), the might skills aren't going to be as powerful.

Sure, a mage can get all that, but might hero will benefit from it more.

Also, you vastly underrate Tactics skill. It's pretty essential when you're clearing the map.


That said, a Magic hero is the one with a better chance to defeat hopelessly overmatched battles, be it against hugely powerful Wandering Monsters or another hero with more castles than him. A might hero against another might hero the one with a larger army is at a higher advantage. While a magic hero has a chance depending on how you manipulate the combat.

How does a Magic hero manage to defeat an enemy who's simply larger than him? To add to his edge in stats, he will just have MORE stuff. Also, from my experience, it's the Might heroes who clear the map faster against "hugely powerful wandering monsters". Sure, your Solmyr or Malekith maybe will clear out - at low cost - the units defending a gold mine. However, they're just not as effective when it comes to fightning Utopias, Dwarven Treasuries, or Crypts. A magic hero is in trouble against Golems or Dragons, which are, by the way, highly nutritious in experience points.

Then, I remind you that a Might hero ALSO can "manipulate the combat". With the same plethora of spells the Magic hero can. Only less effectively, but he makes up for it with his stats.

Sure, I've seen feats like Luna + 1 Sprite defeat 200 Zombies with clever use of Firewall, and even pulled off some of these. But if you really can't believe in cost effective Might heroes, take Gurnisson from Stronghold as your primary hero, make sure he has a Ballista, and get to Expert Artillery ASAP. If you play your cards well, you won't be disappointed. (I once defeated 18 Ogres with just 2 Rocs, Ballista, and a few Hobgoblins.) (http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/4188/aqwqeqwvb6.jpg)

[Vonriel]

Just chipping in: Anti-magic is a third level earth spell, and with expert earth magic, renders a stack completely immune to all spells. If memory serves, barbarian towns favor earth spells and fire spells over any other, giving a pretty decent chance to get anti-magic with a third level mage guild. So, if you can assume Sandro gets implosion, expert air magic, and expert earth magic, let's assume Crag Hack gets anti-magic and expert earth magic. It's good game from there.

Anti-magic as a level 3 spell > animate dead as a level 3 spell, if'n you ask me.

[Myrmex]

And once again, you are basing under the assumption that Might heroes aren't capable of casting those spells.

In my experience, getting sufficiently high wisdom and air & earth magic to cast those spells, and enough knowledge to use them frequently, along with combat spells, isn't going to happen until like 200 turns into a game.



Sure, those spells are powerful, but you're talking about some sort of utopia where the mage gets all the necessary spells to defeat his opponent and his enemy doesn't have any counter against it, so he can't even reach his opponent's units. How about when you don't have those spells, because lady luck - which is how the spells in mage guilds, scrolls, etc. are randomized, by sheer chance - is a harsh mistress? How about when the might hero has some artifacts? How about he has the initiative and manages to reach your units and destroy most of your stacks? How about the might hero having just the sufficient means to neutralize all those nasty effects?

I don't think I've ever played a game on a huge map where I didn't get at least one of those spells.

Magic heroes are great at clearing the map towards late game, because they are more likely to be able to port from one town to another, dimension door to hard to reach places, and will be able to blind wandering monsters, which means they can go up against absurdly powerful things, lose a bunch of units, res them all back to life, then keep pushing.


Spells like Implosion cost a lot and can be resisted. The low mana cost spells are the best, because everyone can cast them and they're just more effective.

Because you're not going to run out of mana with a level 20 magic user?

[SandroTheMaster]

Wow. I can't really argue with you if you believe the Orb of Inhibition is fair game. That artifact must be the most broken item/ability/spell/gimmick I've ever seem in ANY game, but the Recanter's Cloak comes damn close. Picture for a moment that there'd also be an artifact that negated the hero-given bonus to attack and defense as well as nullified every creature-based skills (Tactics, Offese, Armorer, Magic Resistance...) and consider if THAT artifact would be fair game. It is exactly the same thing, but geared against Might Heroes.

Also when I said a magic hero is getter against overwhelming odds, I meant that he has the mana-endurance to keep it up. Consider you're battling 3000 Naga Queens, and your army is only about 4-6 weeks worth. A Might hero might cast Mass Slow a few turns, but he can't keep up with what a magic hero (with intelligence perhaps) can come up with, as he can cast Mass Slow and have the luxury of casting other spells as well (like disrupting Ray) and even some multi-targeted damage spells cast at prime enemy formations. When you're against overwhelming odds, the stats won't save you, only being able to manipulate the enemy and for lenghty periods from the most angles possible will do.

Still, that's one thing I've complained a lot about Heroes for a long time: with a few bonuses from artifacts to magic centered primary skills a Might Hero is about as good as a Magic Hero at casting the manipulative spells in the battlefield, keeping it up until the point it matters, while might-centered bonuses doesn't make that much a difference as the enemy will have similar bonuses. One suggestion I had made a LONG time ago was to make the Spell Power set the priority of the spells. You can't dispel or override an enemy spell unless you have at least as much SP as him. With some bonuses of the like that with Expert Water you could Dispel a spell with Enemy SP-5, so that this gimmick doesn't affect that much the magic heroes themselves agaisnt each other. As it is, it is mostly based on random factors if a Magic Hero will have an even bout against a might Hero (defending a siege is the most balanced scenario here, and the siege was supposed to be a major advantage...).

That's other part I believe Heroes 5 does best at. The factions themselves are considered either might or magic with their heroes, and there are ways to balance out the difference (as well as there are no absurdly broken artifacts like the Orb of Inhibitance, but instead artifacts designed to break game-breaking tactics). The Necromancers still have their necromancy to make up the stats with numbers, Academy may equip their creatures in the late game with Artifacts to shorten the gap between them and might heroes and still add some nifty effects, Dungeon have frighteningly powerful damaging spells and creatures with good stats. Not to mention that Dispell can't just be used against all creatures at once and the stat-altering spells are more severe. All this makes the Magic heroes about in league with the Might heroes in combat with large armies.

(Also, even after all balancing issues in Heroes 4, the heroes themselves were fairly balanced. The Might heroes didn't just gave absurd bonuses to their creatures and the Magic Heroe's capacity was mainly based on skills and his level alone. And both became less powerful as the armies grew bigger and had to be protected. Not to mention you could have an army with both, and were encouraged to.)

[Winthur]

Wow. I can't really argue with you if you believe the Orb of Inhibition is fair game.

According to multiplayer playing people who figured that Necropolis, Conflux, and Diplomacy skill AREN'T fair game (and thus banned them), and who still include this artifact in this game, and they have a lot more expertise with ite game... So... yeah.

Orb of Inhibition isn't something that you can find in Day 1 by beating a bunch of Familiars. In order to reach it, you probably will have to battle a full Dragon Utopia or other such grueling task. By this time, the game might be over already. Hell, if you're so inclined that the power of Dimension Door can lead you beyond the impossible, it can possibly also lead you to the artifact and plain yoink it before your opponent.

Then again, I didn't say I'm entirely happy with this artifact's inclusion. But if it does appear, OF COURSE I will take it, UNLESS I've set it with my opponent beforehand that we DON'T use the Orb. Why shouldn't I?


Picture for a moment that there'd also be an artifact that negated the hero-given bonus to attack and defense as well as nullified every creature-based skills (Tactics, Offese, Armorer, Magic Resistance...) and consider if THAT artifact would be fair game. It is exactly the same thing, but geared against Might Heroes.

No, because if both heroes have the respective blocking artifacts, it just boils down to a showdown of "who massed more units", since the attack/defense stats go to hell along with the magic. (Not to mention that, I think, Armor of the Damned works when Orb is in play) I figure that the "magic ban" artifact was a mislead attempt of the creators to create some challenge for magic addicts, but it went too far.


Also when I said a magic hero is getter against overwhelming odds, I meant that he has the mana-endurance to keep it up. Consider you're battling 3000 Naga Queens, and your army is only about 4-6 weeks worth. A Might hero might cast Mass Slow a few turns, but he can't keep up with what a magic hero (with intelligence perhaps) can come up with, as he can cast Mass Slow and have the luxury of casting other spells as well (like disrupting Ray) and even some multi-targeted damage spells cast at prime enemy formations.

Okay, I understand, but first of all - battles against 3000 Naga Queens are a campaign material (or those hardcore maps like Eternal Love or Lord of War), not something that would appear in a game between human players. Second of all, 4-6 weeks would be a huge army already. If the map is resource-filled, I can get my 7-level unit in Week 1 or 2. If not, usually it's Week 3. Yes, even on Expert. (I'm not playing all that much on Impossible anymore.) That's sufficient for a might hero to get a huge edge in stats and skills like Archery. So, might hero does Mass Slow and then pincushions the Nagas. Most of what he will cast are going to be those low-cost spells like Blind, Slow, Sorrow, Bless... depending on what he chose.

Well, unless the stack of Naga Queens is blocking your initial quarry. Then I'd have doubts. :smalltongue:


When you're against overwhelming odds, the stats won't save you, only being able to manipulate the enemy and for lenghty periods from the most angles possible will do.

Do you believe it's impossible to take on a Dragon Utopia in week 3-4 with just a Might hero, a Forcefield spell, a good ranged unit in large quantities, Bless, an ammo cart and a 2-hex unit + some careful planning? It is very doable. I even saw fights like Angel vs 250 Magogs. Why did the Angel commander win? Just because he had a decent hero and a Shield spell, which just boosts your Defense - ergo, the individual statistic of the unit.


One suggestion I had made a LONG time ago was to make the Spell Power set the priority of the spells. You can't dispel or override an enemy spell unless you have at least as much SP as him.

Cool story, bro. Except it will actually harm the magicians more than it will help them. Rampart or Tower mages, for example, get a lot more Knowledge than Spell Power.


As it is, it is mostly based on random factors if a Magic Hero will have an even bout against a might Hero (defending a siege is the most balanced scenario here, and the siege was supposed to be a major advantage...).

"Balanced"? Let's start with the fact that Armorer in the game is bugged and towers do a LOT more damage to a hero with Armorer skill. Add to the fact that you can blow up the Catapult with Implosion and really stall your opponent before he gets into those walls. Not to mention that if you stay in castle, I won't bother with attacking; I'd rather go around and get some more stuff. While you're stuck doing nothing whatsoever.

See, I see the way the balance of this fine game a lot like StarCraft players saw Protoss vs Zerg battles back in the days. (Zerg being a metaphor for Might heroes, and Protoss for Magicians). Zerg were considered overpowered because the Protoss was forced to stay in his base forever because of the growing number of the Zerg's threats - first Mutalisks (which he had to defend against with Cannons), then Lurkers, or the Zerg could surprise you altogether and kill you with Hydras when you didn't expect that/didn't have the necessary Psionic Storms. It was an uphill battle where Protoss won only when he pushed early and defeated the Zerg during his "get-fat-and-unstoppable" phase.

(Nowadays, though, it's been vastly shifted, because new playstyles were researched and it's pretty balanced now. However, it's still a fact - a Zerg in late game is a huge threat to a Protoss.)

So, basically, the Might hero will become insanely powerful late in the game and I don't think many things can stop him. The Magic hero races against time, and needs to either put a hugely powerful timing attack where the Lightning Bolt takes down Might hero's crucial units. Or he finds a scroll, a magic tome or a spellbinder's hat. However, it's way too hard.

If I had to play a Magic hero against Might, I would need a lot of mana and implosions, as well as an army advantage. Or Shackles of War, Summon Elemental, Ressurection and a ton of patience. Or if I managed to pull off a great spell from a scroll early on. But those are all high level spells, and with Might hero relying mostly on his skills, he's at advantage from this one simple fact.

But that doesn't take the fact that Might becomes a lot better at clearing the stages early on into account. He gets perks like Expert Archery easier, and he's also pretty capable of getting Expert Magics. This allows him to win many battles very cost-effectively. Most of the time, I see Might heroes having bigger armies than Magicians.


(Also, even after all balancing issues in Heroes 4, the heroes themselves were fairly balanced. The Might heroes didn't just gave absurd bonuses to their creatures and the Magic Heroe's capacity was mainly based on skills and his level alone. And both became less powerful as the armies grew bigger and had to be protected. Not to mention you could have an army with both, and were encouraged to.)

In HoMM4, what turned me off from this game is how often the game boiled down to having just a few choice units (preferrably fast ones) and a whole bunch of heroes going from point to point and conquering everything in sight.


Because you're not going to run out of mana with a level 20 magic user?

Of course you aren't. From my experience, a magician is like Silver Surfer from the NES game. You are reached by the Might hero's unit - you die. You hit that unit - you die (from retaliation). You cast a spell, Might hero counters it - you die, your enemy has Resistance in some form, you die, you die, die, die, die, die, die, DIE!


In my experience, getting sufficiently high wisdom and air & earth magic to cast those spells, and enough knowledge to use them frequently, along with combat spells, isn't going to happen until like 200 turns into a game.

I played games even on XL and I haven't seen games that lasted 200 turns - unless in campaigns. It's over 5 months! And believe me, it's not a problem for my Might heroes to get a decent skillset - along with respectable magic - in a month. The knowledge is gotten by artifacts, or if I'm playing Gunnar or Shakti, I have a Mana Vortex.


Magic heroes are great at clearing the map towards late game, because they are more likely to be able to port from one town to another, dimension door to hard to reach places, and will be able to blind wandering monsters, which means they can go up against absurdly powerful things, lose a bunch of units, res them all back to life, then keep pushing.

All of it a Might hero can do. All of it is late game stuff, while Might hero just uses a lot of micromanaging so that his player can fight as many battles per turn as possible, and quite possibly reaches his enemy before he builds up adequately. In fact, it's easier to get Expert Logistics with mighties than magicians.

[Gamerlord]

I have now won TWO more games of hotseat, with necro and Inferno.

And hey! Conflux is pretty cool! I don't see whats so poorly designed about it!

Also, Necropolis is powerful.

[Winthur]

And hey! Conflux is pretty cool! I don't see whats so poorly designed about it!

Because along with Necropolis it's a game breaker castle which offers so many unfair advantages that playing Conflux is just cheap. You get:
-superfast Sprites that have no retaliation attacks and are dirt cheap;
-a magic academy where you can teach any magic for some cash;
-a lvl 5 magic guild;
-PHOENIXES, everything about them screams "IMBAAAAAAA", Whinerdyn style;
-MAGIC ELEMENTALS, which I compared to "minihydras on crack" (with immunity to magic...);
-Storm Elementals; good stats, 25 hp, they shoot, they're fast... definitely one of the best 2nd level units if not the best.

-the fact that it's just a mix of "elementals", nothing really creative, they just put the neutral units there and added the Pixies and Phoenixes from HOMM2 (and when did Magic become an element?);
-a really powerful Holy Grail. AllSpells1Guild, that's how it could have been called.
-it's UGLY. Just look at the Town Hall - it hurts my eyes. It's pretty easy to figure that this castle was thrown in at a last minute just because some ignorant fans had gripes with "the Forge";
-Sprites. Seriously. You don't believe me? Take Luna, a few Sprites and earn a few levels. You can go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb. It's *that* bad.
-Speaking of heroes, all of them are pretty decent. No excitement at all: if you pick Tower and Random hero, you can get Piquedram or Josephine (which suck). If you pick Necropolis and a Random hero, you might get Straker and get off to a really slow start. Meanwhile Conflux? Every single one of those heroes starts off with a huge potential. Many of them start with Basics in magic schools.
-Sprites. I mean, 50 units per week? And they're all-women, so how do they... nevermind. (reminds me of a certain Polish comedy film. That would explain why Conflux is so ****** up. Literally.)
-Ciele, hands down one of the most desirable magic heroes to have, at least in the first few weeks.
-Sprites.


Also, Necropolis is powerful.

We know.

[TheSummoner]

I acknowledge Necropolis is powerful (Vampires and Liches and Dread Knights oh my!). That and my not anywhere near Tsukiko levels, but still quite strong love for the undead is why I play as them. Mind telling me the specific complaints that made people ban them? (Cloak of the Undead King perhaps? Nothing like 4000 Power Liches knocking at your door.)

[Kane]

Question, y'all, since I loved 2&3 too;

Can I get a link to HoMaM V? I've seen a 'Heroes V' at my local computer games store, but I haven't actually been able to tell whether it's Heroes of Might and Magic, or what. Anyway, I'd appreciate it.

[Winthur]

Mind telling me the specific complaints that made people ban them? (Cloak of the Undead King perhaps? Nothing like 4000 Power Liches knocking at your door.)

It's just the fact that skilled players romp through map so fast they reach an insane number of Skeletons in no time, which combined with Vampire Lords and Dread Knights makes their army pretty unstoppable. I rarely heard of a scenario where a Cloak of the Undead King was assembled in a multiplayer game, so they just rely on Skellies.

[toasty]

Question, y'all, since I loved 2&3 too;

Can I get a link to HoMaM V? I've seen a 'Heroes V' at my local computer games store, but I haven't actually been able to tell whether it's Heroes of Might and Magic, or what. Anyway, I'd appreciate it.

At Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Might-Magic-5-Pc/dp/B000BYQJC8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1256027544&sr=8-2)

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes_V)

That help?

[Eldan]

Question, y'all, since I loved 2&3 too;

Can I get a link to HoMaM V? I've seen a 'Heroes V' at my local computer games store, but I haven't actually been able to tell whether it's Heroes of Might and Magic, or what. Anyway, I'd appreciate it.

This would be the cover of the basic game:

http://img.tomshardware.com/de/2006/06/25/heroes_of_might_and_magic_5/heroes_of_might_and_magic_5.jpg

[Dhavaer]

What are the favourite towns in HoMM5? I haven't used them all yet, but so far the dungeon really stands out as a favourite. It's a blatant Warhammer ripoff, of course, but fun to play.

[Poil]

Way too hard to chose, I like all for different reasons:

Haven: Only town where you can get both the Fiery Wrath and Cold Steel skills. Also the easiest access to Retribution.
Inferno: They are demons. Pitlords look completely awesome.
Sylvan: Arcane Archers kick serious butt. Dryads are sweet, even though their move speed is painfully slow.
Dungeon: Empowered spells and strong units, dragons.
Academy: Creature artifacts, get high knowledge and your army will get obscene bonuses to speed and initiative.
Necropolis: Reanimating the dead is kinda fun.
Fortress: Dwarves rock, especially Thanes and the fact that their level 5, 6 and 7 creatures are immune to fire. Armageddon anyone?
Stronghold: BLOODRAGE!!!!! You sweep across the lands slaughtering everything and everyone in your path and unless your opponent has strong Dark Magic (and you lack Shatter Dark Magic) you can just laugh their pitiful spells away as you blast them with Horde's Anger.

I still vastly prefer the old Dungeon that wasn't some lame half naked dark elves. Troglodytes, Harpies, Evil Eyes, Medusae, that's good stuff, not some frail dope with the crappiest excuse for a crossbow ever seen.

[Morty]

What are the favourite towns in HoMM5? I haven't used them all yet, but so far the dungeon really stands out as a favourite. It's a blatant Warhammer ripoff, of course, but fun to play.

I don't think I've got a favorite town gameplay-wise despite playing HoMM5 for a while. Maybe it's because while I've had it for two years, I play occasionally. I play Academy and especially Stronghold most often, but that's because of their flavor, so to speak.


It's pretty easy to figure that this castle was thrown in at a last minute just because some ignorant fans had gripes with "the Forge";

I agree that Conflux is ugly and uninventive, but I maintian that adding Forge as it was would've been a bad idea. Sure, it made sense within the context of the setting, but on random maps it'd look somewhat strange.
And speaking of Conflux heroes, they could at least have given their Might heroes some other specializations than their own elementals. *eyeroll*

[SandroTheMaster]

Question, y'all, since I loved 2&3 too;

Can I get a link to HoMaM V? I've seen a 'Heroes V' at my local computer games store, but I haven't actually been able to tell whether it's Heroes of Might and Magic, or what. Anyway, I'd appreciate it.

Try to get Heroes 5 Gold. It comes with Heroes of Might and Magic 5 and both expansions (Hammers of Fate and Tribes of The East). It is much more worth it, as the expansions add a LOT. Tribes of the east adds alternate upgrades, which completely changes the game, as well as mixed wandering stacks, which makes the random battles more interesting, plus caravans to diminish the micromanaging of handling creature dwellings and distant castles (all adapted ideas of Heroes 4). You can get the Heroes Pack at Steam (http://store.steampowered.com/sub/1753/) for 45 bucks, it comes with the Dark Messiah of Might and Magic (an amusing first person game with interesting use of physics if nothing else). Since I'm at it, I also STRONGLY recommend Kings Bounty: The Legend (Russian remake of the original Kings Bounty that was the origin of Heroes of Might and Magic). You can get that one on Impulse for 30 bucks (http://www.impulsedriven.com/kingsbounty).


About the Factions. I always liked the Necropolis, though I never really abused of necromancy like some people do (Plus, I believe the Cloak of the Undead King to be a campaign item, it doesn't belong to multiplayer). In Heroes 5 with the expansions they finally rebalanced the skill to work depending on what you killed and expending Dark Energy, a necromantic resource you restore weekly. Though I prefer to make skellies still (specially the new Skeleton Warriors) and it makes sort of difficult to amass the troop you want. Still, makes even easier to conserve troops as you can raise a few liches if a bad battle cost you some.

Second comes Academy. I start playing with the mini-artifacts as early as week 1 (Gremlins with armor breaker make quite a difference in the earlier battles). Sylvan, because I like to make good use of Imbue Arrow with Hail of Arrows (it is tough to make good choices regarding your favored enemies). Then there's Inferno (you can't NOT love the succubus) and Fortress (I like dwarves, nuff said). Then comes Dungeon (sometimes, casting devastating spells have its perks), Stronghold and Haven.

[d12]

A friend of mine got me to start playing homm3 a few years ago, and while I do enjoy playing it, there seems to be something about the game I just don't properly grok. We've played a few multiplayer games (always players-are-allied scenarios though, cuz I'd get destroyed otherwise, but we are in the middle of a players-not-allied game currently in order to figure out what I do wrong) and it always seems that he ends up lollerskating around the map after a while and I'm more or less where I always was mobilitywise (though I tend to get crap for spells). And then he says things like "dude, just take dragons with you; they're awesome." True, but if I tore around the map with only a stack of 10 dragons I'd just get them killed when anything more menacing than a random neutral stack happened by (course, he was using black dragons this last time, so not worrying about magic can be nice I suppose). :smalltongue: I remember he once altered a scenario map in order to place azure dragon spawns and dropped a few in my army so I could see how great they are--pretty sure I managed to get a couple of them killed, so I was less than awed at the time. :smallbiggrin:

I tried one campaign once. Shadow of Death if I remember correctly. The first two scenarios went well enough, but I just got my ass torn off in the third one. Not really sure why. There I am exploring and building up and some doom legion just swoops in out of nowhere and ganks me, so I decided I was just about done with that campaign at that point. I mean, come on.

No real point in this whole comment. :smalltongue: Saw this thread about a week ago and started playing again. Maybe somebody will get a chuckle out of my n00bsauce play.

[SandroTheMaster]

A friend of mine got me to start playing homm3 a few years ago, and while I do enjoy playing it, there seems to be something about the game I just don't properly grok. We've played a few multiplayer games (always players-are-allied scenarios though, cuz I'd get destroyed otherwise, but we are in the middle of a players-not-allied game currently in order to figure out what I do wrong) and it always seems that he ends up lollerskating around the map after a while and I'm more or less where I always was mobilitywise (though I tend to get crap for spells). And then he says things like "dude, just take dragons with you; they're awesome." True, but if I tore around the map with only a stack of 10 dragons I'd just get them killed when anything more menacing than a random neutral stack happened by (course, he was using black dragons this last time, so not worrying about magic can be nice I suppose). :smalltongue: I remember he once altered a scenario map in order to place azure dragon spawns and dropped a few in my army so I could see how great they are--pretty sure I managed to get a couple of them killed, so I was less than awed at the time. :smallbiggrin:

I tried one campaign once. Shadow of Death if I remember correctly. The first two scenarios went well enough, but I just got my ass torn off in the third one. Not really sure why. There I am exploring and building up and some doom legion just swoops in out of nowhere and ganks me, so I decided I was just about done with that campaign at that point. I mean, come on.

No real point in this whole comment. :smalltongue: Saw this thread about a week ago and started playing again. Maybe somebody will get a chuckle out of my n00bsauce play.

First off, you need to play Heroes 5 if you're going to just hotseat. The fifth is the most balanced and polished for multiplayer scenarios. Second, if you're going to play a campaign, DON'T START WITH SHADOW OF DEATH. That campaign was made as a challenge to the people who finished both Restoration of Erathia and Armageddon Blade (in that order).

Just so you know, a lot of the gameplay in the campaign involves outmaneuvering the enemies and trying to battle them at prime conditions (like in a castle or in a day where you have 1 or 2 weeks worth of creature populations of advantage), and otherwise being extremely aggressive. The computer will usually have a big advantage in numbers of castles from the start, so he can just plainly accumulate more troops than you. It is ideal to get one or two of his castles in the first 2 weeks in the campaign maps, so it evens the odds a bit and you can amass in the same rate as him. Sometimes he just doesn't have castles close to you also, so there are probably a few neutral towns close to your starting area, in this case you need to start a game, explore around your castles to discover the locations of such towns, restart the mission and go straight for them. Then there are missions where the objective isn't defeating the AI factions, but kill certain creature, capture certain castle, acquire certain artifact. In these the enemy will sometimes just outright outmatch you and you have to pretty much avoid him at all costs and concentrate on the objective.

One last thing, if you're interested in campaigns, go for the Heroes 4 ones, they're the most elaborate and the most well-written.

About your lack of skill, you should post which factions you play with and a rundown of your general tactics so we can do something about it. But some people will probably point the blame on your lack of might heroes :annoyed:

[TheSummoner]

I started with Shadow of Death and did ok... Never finished it, but I got to one of the last maps before growing bored...

[Gamerlord]

Curses, I just lost a match to a friend....

The thing is, I WAS PLAYING NECRO! HOW COULD I LOSE!!!

[bloodlover]

Waiting for HOMM Horn of the abyss right now . Imo Heroes 3 is the best from the series and mods like WoG just make it more awesome .

[SandroTheMaster]

Waiting for HOMM Horn of the abyss right now . Imo Heroes 3 is the best from the series and mods like WoG just make it more awesome .

While I do support the balancing done by WoG, I hate some of the changes it's done. Most of all, I find it whiny from the makes of the mod to simply go and say that Heroes 4 didn't exist, just because Heroes 4 made the Heroes series follow the Might and Magic lore for a change. What made me even more mad is how people complained about Might and Magic IX not being in Enroth (Actually, Colony, that was the name of the planet), when Might and Magic just lingered more in that setting than any other, while at heart it was about crisis in different worlds.

@TheSummoner: Did you? You do know that after finishing the 4 first campaigns you unlocks a fifth, right? And then a sixth and a seventh afterwards. Anyway, I just don't consider the Shadow of Death campaigns suited to learn the Heroes gameplay (or how to deal with the Heroes campaign in general) because they start at "Hard" and just go up, while the previous campaign gives you time to get used to the lack of creatures and using the most of your veteran Heroes at the start of new missions.

[Winthur]

But some people will probably point the blame on your lack of might heroes

:smile:

Just because I'm sharing my knowledge of the workings of the game and accept the way it's created doesn't mean I'm a raving fan who will go **** over anyone if he doesn't play his way. What can I say? We can play (or could if I had the game, but I don't have it anymore), if I win, I'd revise my thoughts, if you win, you can continue with your ways or revise yours... not my problem, really! I won't mind as long as you don't use cheats and then brag about it - but you don't seem like that kind of guy... :smallsmile:

Heroes is not some sort of an elitist game like StarCraft where you can be playing 4 hours per day and still be a weakling (not that I know anything about those things... no, really, why should I? :smallredface: ). It's not a puzzle game that you take once and solve it, then put down on a shelf, and there are a ton of ways to play it. But as with every game - even chess - there are just certain few optimal moves that most people do in most of their games.

I've witnessed many times where magic was more powerful. Sometimes I just screwed up. Sometimes there weren't enough resources for my "Genghis Khan plan for Might heroes" and those spells mattered a lot more with the free wells all around the map, as opposed to expensive dwellings that I had to fight for.

It's just fun. I'm just saying that if you want to go hardcore into it, my knowledge comes from some research and a few days where I wasn't really like doing anything but browsing geeky forums... and games where the approach presented here by me worked with flying colours.

And as long as D12 is willing to improve, I can add my 2 grosze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groschen) to the pile.

So have fun with either Sandro, or Crag, or even Piquedram and conquer the world with +1 speed gargoyles. :smallsmile:

[d12]

First off, you need to play Heroes 5 if you're going to just hotseat. The fifth is the most balanced and polished for multiplayer scenarios. Second, if you're going to play a campaign, DON'T START WITH SHADOW OF DEATH. That campaign was made as a challenge to the people who finished both Restoration of Erathia and Armageddon Blade (in that order).

Just so you know, a lot of the gameplay in the campaign involves outmaneuvering the enemies and trying to battle them at prime conditions (like in a castle or in a day where you have 1 or 2 weeks worth of creature populations of advantage), and otherwise being extremely aggressive. The computer will usually have a big advantage in numbers of castles from the start, so he can just plainly accumulate more troops than you. It is ideal to get one or two of his castles in the first 2 weeks in the campaign maps, so it evens the odds a bit and you can amass in the same rate as him. Sometimes he just doesn't have castles close to you also, so there are probably a few neutral towns close to your starting area, in this case you need to start a game, explore around your castles to discover the locations of such towns, restart the mission and go straight for them. Then there are missions where the objective isn't defeating the AI factions, but kill certain creature, capture certain castle, acquire certain artifact. In these the enemy will sometimes just outright outmatch you and you have to pretty much avoid him at all costs and concentrate on the objective.

One last thing, if you're interested in campaigns, go for the Heroes 4 ones, they're the most elaborate and the most well-written.

About your lack of skill, you should post which factions you play with and a rundown of your general tactics so we can do something about it. But some people will probably point the blame on your lack of might heroes :annoyed:

Actually, we typically play our multiplayer games over IP. Setting up port forwarding rules on the router/firewall is always a lot of fun, but we know how all that works. :smalltongue:

As far as campaigns go, whoops. I wasn't aware SoD was an advanced campaign. My friend did recommend the Restoration of Erathia campaign a while ago, with the caveat that it "may not be [my] style." Guess you're not playing as an evil/amoral bastard in that one. :smalltongue: I might give it a try sometime. Some things I've read here and there (such as your comment about getting enemy cities within a few weeks) seem to be a bit discouraging overall, since I don't tend to be a rush player.

As far as the factions I play goes, I don't really tend to have a preference. I just play whatever strikes me at the time, which may be part of the problem insofar as I don't get a lot of time to really learn how to best utilize a given faction's units/heroes/resources (in the current "find out what's wrong with my play" game I'm playing Castle, since, hey, archangels..how can you screw those up? :smallbiggrin: if it matters, I started with Orrin..hero with archery spec..I await responses calling me an idiot for choosing such a weak hero lol). Nor do I really have a preference for heroes, with respect to might/magic, specializations, etc. And I probably build their secondaries like an idiot a lot of the time, but what can you do about being offered (what appear to be) two pretty lousy skills at level up? And historically my interest in the game has probably been a bit too casual to really dig into the minutia of its mechanics and get into strategies and such.

Also, funny that you should mention homm4. My friend will occasionally try to get me to try that out (he must never find out about this exchange. :smalltongue:). Never really got around to it though, for various reasons. And as for the campaigns therein, writing/story isn't usually a huge concern of mine. For all I care the campaigns could be about setting out on a quest for wenches and plunder lol. :smallbiggrin:

This whole post is probably really light on starting points for giving advice, but that's mostly because I kind of don't really know where to start. I know the basics of how everything works, but there just seems to be something I'm not seeing. My original post was mostly made in a "hey guys, there's somebody here who completely didn't understand about 90% of your posts lol" tone.

[Winthur]

if it matters, I started with Orrin..hero with archery spec..I await responses calling me an idiot for choosing such a weak hero lol).

Orrin is actually a great castle hero! With the big Archery bonus + Marksmen it makes clearing out the map easier. Plus, AFAIK, he starts with Leadership, which isn't really the best, but is helpful very early on. (It's just too easy to raise morale for Leadership to matter in the late game.) Orrin is a good choice. And nobody would call you an idiot, not even me, who lately gets into a ton of heated internet debates. :smalltongue:

Fun for Tower players - if you're lucky enough to get Orrin early in your tavern, try it. Master Gremlins + Titans + Archmages + the yummy Archery bonus. Tasty.


And I probably build their secondaries like an idiot a lot of the time, but what can you do about being offered (what appear to be) two pretty lousy skills at level up?

In this kind of case I'd never choose Eagle Eye or Mysticism, and definitely not Learning or First Aid. It's rather unachievable to get a hero with perfect 8 main skills every single game, so just set up your priorities and don't frown if you were forced to pick a lame skill just this once. It happens. There's some sort of formula to avoid those scenarios, but I never bothered to learn about it.

Also, some of the subpar skills are really useful on Secondary heroes - like Scholar or Estates.

[Blayze]

I usually try and build up a backup hero for caravan duty. Navigation, Logistics, Pathfinding, Air Magic and Water Magic (Cheaper Fly and Water Walk, yo!) -- and usually something like Estates as Scouting just seems rubbish. Also Scholar and Eagle Eye, to make the most of any spells learned and spread them to the 'front line' heroes as much as possible.

For some reason however, I hate using a Magic hero who has anything less than all four Elemental skills. My Might heroes exist for siege improvements and countering anti-magic, but my Magic heroes just lay waste to everything in their path -- especially once I get Chain Lightning and start coming up against full armies.

ZAP!!

[Mando Knight]

How broken is this: I find and conquer a second Dungeon city in HoMM3, and then stumble upon and capture one of the two Magic Forests on the map. I then construct both Portals of Summoning. Now I've got one, and occasionally three Faerie Dragons per week, on top of the four Red/Black Dragons.

Even worse, I just found a third Dungeon, and recently upgraded a Tower town to have the Titan temple.

[SandroTheMaster]

:smile:

Just because I'm sharing my knowledge of the workings of the game and accept the way it's created doesn't mean I'm a raving fan who will go **** over anyone if he doesn't play his way. What can I say? We can play (or could if I had the game, but I don't have it anymore), if I win, I'd revise my thoughts, if you win, you can continue with your ways or revise yours... not my problem, really! I won't mind as long as you don't use cheats and then brag about it - but you don't seem like that kind of guy... :smallsmile:

Heroes is not some sort of an elitist game like StarCraft where you can be playing 4 hours per day and still be a weakling (not that I know anything about those things... no, really, why should I? :smallredface: ). It's not a puzzle game that you take once and solve it, then put down on a shelf, and there are a ton of ways to play it. But as with every game - even chess - there are just certain few optimal moves that most people do in most of their games.

I've witnessed many times where magic was more powerful. Sometimes I just screwed up. Sometimes there weren't enough resources for my "Genghis Khan plan for Might heroes" and those spells mattered a lot more with the free wells all around the map, as opposed to expensive dwellings that I had to fight for.

It's just fun. I'm just saying that if you want to go hardcore into it, my knowledge comes from some research and a few days where I wasn't really like doing anything but browsing geeky forums... and games where the approach presented here by me worked with flying colours.

And as long as D12 is willing to improve, I can add my 2 grosze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groschen) to the pile.

So have fun with either Sandro, or Crag, or even Piquedram and conquer the world with +1 speed gargoyles. :smallsmile:

I completely forgot that +1 speed to gargoyles! Specialization in one of the worst creatures in the game and of the worst kind (it just makes the gargoyles slightly more mobile...)

Anyway, as I said it shouldn't be hard to get the game, as you can get Heroes 3 complete at Good Old Games for 10 bucks. But for multiplayer I've already said it, I'd rather go for Heroes 5. In 3 there are so many exploits possible, and some can be done completely by accident!

For d12, I hope you buy a secondary hero on Day 1. That single change of strategy makes a HUGE difference, as the initial hero basically doubles his starting army and the initial secondary hero will save weeks worthy of movement points for him exploring/claiming resources. It also helps favoring gold to experience from the chests, depending on the difficulty you set, but as a rule of thumb: 1000 gold is always better than 500 XP. As for skills, well, as I said, there are reasons why I like Heroes 5 best when it comes to Hero advancement. There the weaker skills are usually both enhanced and become a single perk within another, more useful, skill. Even Learning became especially good. Still, the best way to avoid it in Heroes 5 is to avoid reaching expert in the skills you already have, so that they keep being offered at better levels along with some other skill, and always selecting the skills you want the moment they show up in favor of advancing one you already have, regardless of your urgency at it.

[Winthur]

Navigation, Logistics, Pathfinding, Air Magic and Water Magic (Cheaper Fly and Water Walk, yo!) -- and usually something like Estates as Scouting just seems rubbish.

Since I always have a main hero and a few secondaries (that I use for scouting and "chaining" my army inbetween heroes so I can fight more battles per turn), the main hero gets all the important skills. What does a good secondary need? Preferrably Logistics, Pathfinding and maybe some decent spells. So I can cramp those heroes with things like Estates, because more money never hurts. Scouting can be useful in certain situations - it saves some movement points when you don't waste them to uncover meaningless areas.
Even First Aid can be usable... at the worst, it can attract mobs so they hit the tent instead of your precious units. If you're determined enough, the tent can be quite useful in fights with random mobs.
Now Eagle Eye is the most useless skill in the game. No point in having it - the chances that the enemy will cast that essential spell you'd want and the chance of you learning it like this are looooow. I'd take Intelligence over Mysticism any day.


It also helps favoring gold to experience from the chests, depending on the difficulty you set, but as a rule of thumb: 1000 gold is always better than 500 XP

There are basically two paths you can take. You can rush towards Capitol early on and get experience from chests. This way is very popular, but it's subpar. If the map is poor, it IS a good strategy. If the map, however, is abundant enough (not even to the ground-breaking levels), you're much better off buying a few dwellings, get monsters and clearing the map with them while taking gold from chests. Either way, you will get to the level 7 creatures in 2-3 weeks, but with the "army right off the bat" strat, you get more creatures earlier, you get artifacts, your heroes become more experienced... Whereas with "Capitol first" your offensive options are rather limited, rendering you a sitting duck until it finishes.

You can take some experience from chests, though, for example, if you really need that Expert level in X skill earlier...

[TheSummoner]

Honestly, I never bother too much with secondaries... I buy them of course, but I never really train them or get them any skills other than those they come with or learn for free through witch huts.

I also have a tendency to go for the capitol first, but you make a good enough point for getting dwellings that I may mix it up a bit next time I play and see how that works for me.

[Winthur]

I also have a tendency to go for the capitol first, but you make a good enough point for getting dwellings that I may mix it up a bit next time I play and see how that works for me.

Here's a little exercise. Take Shakti/Dungeon, focus on building up on army and get more heroes with spare money (about 3-4 will be enough), with no Town Hall if possible, and try to eliminate as much of your starting area as possible. BEFOREHAND, though, see around if the map allows it - if you're cramped up in an area where a horde of Pegasi locks you in a tight place with only wood and stone, if you're in a desert starved for gold, this might lead to a disaster.

Switch the armies between heroes a lot (like this: Hero 1 fights something, gives units to Hero 2, who gives it to Hero 3, who gives it to Hero 4 who fights something and so, back and forth, until everything's clear. After that, decide which hero you want as main [probably the starting one, but mixes like Crag Hack/Castle or Orrin/Tower are fun.]) Troglodytes are your powerstack - with Shakti, you will have about 100 of them from Day One. This will one-shot most of the stacks you will be facing. With Shakti, you also get Tactics, and your Troggies are faster. Of course, against shooters, you will suffer huge casualties, so get to Manticores for the sole reason of blocking shooter stacks. (Manticores suck anyway so don't be too sad when you get some killed - I'd rather have that 1 Manti dead than 30 Trogs.) If the starting area is rich enough, you might get all the important dwellings (except the lvl 7 one) and a Castle.

Also, try this battle formation: split your army this way:
Your Trog stack
Harpies
Every other free slot: 1 Trog.
It works wonders. You send those small Trogs as bait, the AI targets them, and thus your casualties get a lot smaller, because it opens up a lot of opportunity to just fool the AIs with running away from them, etc. And you will need it to clean the Crypts and Dwarven Treasuries, that you should try to aim for in Week One (Two, tops).

Just remember - every week aim to get those ESSENTIAL creatures. There's no point in buying everything with this gameplan, because you will run out of money. Consider what do you need - more Mantis for blocking shooters, more Trogs to deal damage against dangers lying ahead, or something else altogether?

Hope this helps.

[Morty]

How broken is this: I find and conquer a second Dungeon city in HoMM3, and then stumble upon and capture one of the two Magic Forests on the map. I then construct both Portals of Summoning. Now I've got one, and occasionally three Faerie Dragons per week, on top of the four Red/Black Dragons.

Even worse, I just found a third Dungeon, and recently upgraded a Tower town to have the Titan temple.

The AB dragons are generally ridiculous from my experience.

[d12]

Yeah, just last week I caught onto the idea of hiring a second hero on day 1, offloading his units to my primary, and sending him out to help collecting resources and exploring. I almost always favor XP from chests though, even the 1000g/500xp ones (I did also read elsewhere recently that you're probably better off getting the gold from those, outside of specific circumstances, so maybe I'll start doing that).

I also tend to build for capitol first, though I have been wondering if it would be better to get at least a couple of the better creature buildings first. I should probably try that out sometime.

[TheSummoner]

My problem with going for units before capitol is that as a Necropolis player my lower end units tend to suck. Skeletons are only good because you get them in such high numbers, zombies are pathetic, wraiths are only useful once upgraded and even then only against enemy heroes...

[Winthur]

My problem with going for units before capitol is that as a Necropolis player my lower end units tend to suck. Skeletons are only good because you get them in such high numbers, zombies are pathetic, wraiths are only useful once upgraded and even then only against enemy heroes...

Screw everything and get to Dread Knights ASAP (you will pick up Vampires on the way, too, I think). With Dread Knights as blocker unit and Skeletons as powerstack, you will have it easier. Then, once the cash starts flowing from your conquests, buy some more army.

[Jahkaivah]

How broken is this: I find and conquer a second Dungeon city in HoMM3, and then stumble upon and capture one of the two Magic Forests on the map. I then construct both Portals of Summoning. Now I've got one, and occasionally three Faerie Dragons per week, on top of the four Red/Black Dragons.

Even worse, I just found a third Dungeon, and recently upgraded a Tower town to have the Titan temple.

On a scale? I'd say about here:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/saxcsa/Scale.jpg

[SandroTheMaster]

Dividing your lvl 1 stack is a given. You save absurd numbers of level 1 creatures (and other low level creatures, but the lvl 1 tend to suffer the most) by wasting wandering monsters retaliations on stacks of a single lone lvl 1 in the early game.

For necro I find that getting liches early is more useful than Dread Knights. They are tough, but their structure and individual cost is a bit too much in the earlier game, and since you're likely using stacks of single skellies to soak damage, there's no real need for a tanking unit like the dread knight early on. Better to concentrate those resources on the magic guild or the castle and abusing of the undead-safe fireball that are the liches.

For the record, skeletons are pretty solid as a level 1 creature. If you use your zombies right the initial stack is pretty devastating in the early game. But I've never been fond of the strategy of dishing skeleton warriors for normal skeletons. The larger numbers are good, but I really rather have the mobility of warriors placed in the middle of your army, where he can support any of your creatures.

[Dhavaer]

Does anyone know of a list of what order the AI targets creatures in? My imps and familiars seem to absolutely enrage it for some reason.

[Mando Knight]

Does anyone know of a list of what order the AI targets creatures in? My imps and familiars seem to absolutely enrage it for some reason.

It seems to target the stack with the largest average damage first, from what I could tell. If you've got thousands of troglodytes or imps or such and only ten upgraded level 7 units, it'll target the massive stack of level 1s, even though the level 7s are more likely to take down the closest stack of ranged units.

[SandroTheMaster]

Actually, from my experience, it calculates how he can be the most harmful to you and acts as though it was doing the ol' russian scorched earth strategy. The problem is that it keeps using this strategy even with its main heroes, where he should be fighting to win...

What I mean is: If he can attack your stack of 10 ancient behemoths and the stack of 500 hobgoblins, and it will kill only 1 behemoth but kill 100 hobgoblins (which cost more), he'll go for the goblins, but if he'd kill 2 behemoths, he'd go for the behemoths (as they cost more). That is, it tries to cost you the most in resources in battle, which usually means consistently killing low level ones than risking at high level creatures when given the choice.

[Miklus]

...There I am exploring and building up and some doom legion just swoops in out of nowhere and ganks me, so I decided I was just about done with that campaign at that point. I mean, come on.

This is my problem exactly. And if you loose your main stack and your best hero, you are done for. But otherwise the game is fun!

Can anyone recommend some user-made campains? There are too few maps in the game.

[SandroTheMaster]

This is my problem exactly. And if you loose your main stack and your best hero, you are done for. But otherwise the game is fun!

You're not even close to know true madness. Heroes 5 campaigns might range from silly to retarded at no discernible pattern (although it gets a bit better in the expansions, strangely the exact opposite of how Heroes 4 went), but I can attest that: these campaigns are HARD. I'm not kidding. One of the very first demands to Nival after the release was an "easy" difficulty setting for the campaigns. People literally wasn't getting past the first one. Millions of people.

When the game is finally generous enough to give you a ridiculously powerful Hero in the Sylvan (Rampart) campaign, they mercilessly give you some of the most ridiculously unfair battles and scenarios ever imagined. At one point you have to manage to somehow survive a necropolis Hero with THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of skeleton archers from day 1 (BTW, getting Skeleton archers as favored enemy in this campaign, but specifically this map, is pretty much forced upon you). They take full advantage of the fact that they KNOW the (veteran) player will use all the tricks he has in his sleeve, even considering the nerfed dimension door and hero-chaining in this equation, so you're pretty much forced to use these exploits just to get by instead of having an easier time.

Playing these campaigns in the hardest setting is one of the most masochistic TBS experiences out there.

[TheSummoner]

So... I tried going for units before income and I liked the way it worked for me. Defintaly worth doing again ^_^

[MickJay]

When the game is finally generous enough to give you a ridiculously powerful Hero in the Sylvan (Rampart) campaign, they mercilessly give you some of the most ridiculously unfair battles and scenarios ever imagined. At one point you have to manage to somehow survive a necropolis Hero with THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of skeleton archers from day 1 (BTW, getting Skeleton archers as favored enemy in this campaign, but specifically this map, is pretty much forced upon you). They take full advantage of the fact that they KNOW the (veteran) player will use all the tricks he has in his sleeve, even considering the nerfed dimension door and hero-chaining in this equation, so you're pretty much forced to use these exploits just to get by instead of having an easier time.

Playing these campaigns in the hardest setting is one of the most masochistic TBS experiences out there.

I've finished the whole original game on Normal almost without cheats (and went about halfway through on Hard before I got bored), but I simply had to cheat to get past that one Sylvan mission where your isolated starting city is being attacked every week or so by a fresh necromancer army, while your main hero's supposed to be conquering the mainland. To add insult to the injury, one of the optional goals is to garrison a number of troops in the first city. When you manage to do that, there's a cutscene in which the main hero says something like "here's a garrison to weather any siege". Convinced that he was telling the truth, I rushed to the mainland. A few days later a new necro army appeared out of the portal and crushed the "undefeatable" garrison and its hero without any problems. :smallannoyed:

[SandroTheMaster]

I've finished the whole original game on Normal almost without cheats (and went about halfway through on Hard before I got bored), but I simply had to cheat to get past that one Sylvan mission where your isolated starting city is being attacked every week or so by a fresh necromancer army, while your main hero's supposed to be conquering the mainland. To add insult to the injury, one of the optional goals is to garrison a number of troops in the first city. When you manage to do that, there's a cutscene in which the main hero says something like "here's a garrison to weather any siege". Convinced that he was telling the truth, I rushed to the mainland. A few days later a new necro army appeared out of the portal and crushed the "undefeatable" garrison and its hero without any problems. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, that map is the second worst behind the one with the unbelievably large army.

The secret here is the secondary hero. At the start you need your primary protecting the castle and give an army to the secondary to get a bit of XP in chests and wandering monsters. The aim here is to get Destruction Magic and at least advanced Avenger with these two abilities: Imbue Arrow and Hail of Arrow (it was in this map I learned that trick). Also, build up your magic guild up to 4th level and the castle to have a better protection.

Once set, switch the Heroes and go advance in the map with your main and let the secondary protecting. The most important thing is to have Treants and forcing the AI into the moats, that is, waiting until he destroys a wall section or two. Placing the Treants at the gates before the wall is open is also good, as the enemy can only attack him with 2 units before being forced into the moat.

Now, the greatest trick here is the Hero, as I said. Get 3 undead creatures as favored enemies. At the start of combat, cast imbue arrow with either Meteor Swarm or Chain Lightning (either is bound to appear at a sylvan mage guild level 4), then go merry in your way with Hail of Arrows.

That way you're always causing a lot of damage to the enemy armies at your Hero's turn, and your creatures have a large chance of causing double damage against his most worrisome stacks (under your discretion). Also, accumulating the Avenger bonus with luck doesn't hurt. If you get some spell power artifact in the beginning all the better, but if not, get enlightenment to try and remedy the Ranger's below average Spell Power. War Machines with First Aid is a must for conserving troops, but Imbue Balista is also neat. Finally, sorcery with arcane training and Arcane Brilliance helps a lot, as well as either Defense and Attack secondary skills.

[Dhavaer]

How do I get Markal to curse the Academies with the Staff and make them into Necropolises?

[MickJay]

As far as I remember, you get the option automatically on conquering Academies, as long as you have the resources to perform the ritual (I'm not sure about cursing the cities after they've already been captured).

[Eldan]

For the first time I've just played the campaign for Heroes V for more than half a mission. Is it just me or is it absolutely hilarious?

Queen: "Hey. You are the elven general, right?"

Huge dude in glowing spiky red armor with inverted pentagram symbols and skulls: "No, not really."

[Poil]

To be fair it's an easy mistake to make. :smallbiggrin:

In the spirit of this thread I booted up Heroes 3 and tried to beat the campaigns but got stuck on the first mission of Restoration of Enrath. Not from the difficulty but how mind numbingly dull it was. The neutral monster armies are so tiny they're not worth to bother with, the hero level cap is ludicrously low, most of the map is spent sluggishly moving through snow at a snails pace and the AI just keeps sending hero after hero leading uselessly small armies at me.

[SandroTheMaster]

To be fair it's an easy mistake to make. :smallbiggrin:

In the spirit of this thread I booted up Heroes 3 and tried to beat the campaigns but got stuck on the first mission of Restoration of Enrath. Not from the difficulty but how mind numbingly dull it was. The neutral monster armies are so tiny they're not worth to bother with, the hero level cap is ludicrously low, most of the map is spent sluggishly moving through snow at a snails pace and the AI just keeps sending hero after hero leading uselessly small armies at me.

Of course it is easy. That is pretty much the Tutorial campaign, and it is pretty easy and designed as the training-wheels for the rookie player. Don't worry, there's a mission against the dungeon at some point (but it may be in the Armageddon Blade campaigns) where the dungeon has a castle advantage and you're stuck for a while in the starting area, so when you meet him you're at quite a population disadvantage.

@ Eldan: Yes, it is THAT stupid. But mainly, the real offender is the Queen. They really made her cartoonishly Stupid. Very. As well as the Sylvan hero is cartoonishly goody. And the Inferno is cartoonishly evil at times. Still, it has its moments. Especially in the Necromancer campaign and when you're playing with Agrael, later. Still, be prepared. The campaign gets truly HARD, depending on your difficulty setting. And the Sylvan campaign probably gets the prize there.

[Eldan]

Well, I finished the human campaign on hard. I'll probably have to go down to easy for the elves, from what I keep hearing.

[SandroTheMaster]

Oh, there are some proper strategies to use with the Sylvan, and the powerful hero they give you sure helps. Still the sylvan campaign is designed in such way you really need to make use of their Avanger skill and making a great Sylvan build for your main hero. In the last map the main had max luck and elven luck (with Soldier's luck), and a secondary hero where I got the ultimate Sylvan skill (100% luck), and still it was a close call.

[Voldecanter]

In the Spirit of this thread I dug Up my Heroes of Might and Magic II Game , and just beat the King Roland Campaign ....I am just wondering .....do they ever Transmute Archibald's Stone Statue back into Archibald himself , in any of the later games ? (Roland Cast Flesh to Stone on his Evil Brother Archibald for those just wondering)

[Argeus]

Can we also discuss the series that spawned it all, Might and Magic from 1 through 8, here? Oh, and don't bother about the 9th. They say it's godawful.

[Voldecanter]

I actually started with 2 , I played it with a friend when he came down from toronto at his grandma's house ....but that christmas my parents purchased Heroes I for me , and I though it was equally as good . However , I don't remember the Campaign that well . Also , Did anyone play the original King's Bounty that came with Heroes I when you downloaded the game onto your computer ..

[Gamerlord]

Can we also discuss the series that spawned it all, Might and Magic from 1 through 8, here? Oh, and don't bother about the 9th. They say it's godawful.

I tried to play the first 5 games, but I never could understand them...

[Argeus]

For some reason, whenever I think of M&M and 3DO, I get a feeling of deep regret. Jon Van Caneghem and his fellows could have easily become the Square-Enix of Western RPG, had they not made so many delibitating errors in developing their later games.

[factotum]

do they ever Transmute Archibald's Stone Statue back into Archibald himself , in any of the later games ?

That happens during the events of Might and Magic VI (e.g. the RPG, not the turn-based strategy game)--the player has to turn Archibald back into flesh because he's the only one who knows a vital piece of information for completing the plot. He also pops up in Might and Magic VII--don't remember if he's in VIII or not. I don't think he turns up in any game in the Heroes series other than II, though.

[MickJay]

I played King's Bounty, I mostly remember that there's a very nasty trap you might fall into later in the game: once you've increased the unit cap sufficiently (usually on the third or fourth continent), you can recruit a really formidable army back in the first castle - but because it requires support, the soldiers might desert you before you've got a chance to use them against a major enemy. Basically, the main difficulty in game (beside the time limit) lies in determining how large an army you need to defeat the final enemy.

[Morty]

Can we also discuss the series that spawned it all, Might and Magic from 1 through 8, here? Oh, and don't bother about the 9th. They say it's godawful.

I wouldn't say it's godawful. You can play it without feeling too bad. It's just that there's so many better things you could do. Sadly, it's the only M&M game I've ever played. I once considered starting playing M&MVII, but nothing came out of it. I loved hearing that when you lose in M&M1 it's over without a reload, though. Good old days.

[Poil]

Some time ago one of my friends discovered a neat tactic the AI was accidentally using on him in HoMM 5, dwarves spamming the Armageddon spell. In retrospect it's obvious since their level 5, 6 and 7 monsters are immune to fire.

Another humorous thing is that Sylvan heroes can use the:
Imbue Arrow (you cast the selected spell everytime your hero makes an attack),
Ballista (you get control of the ballista and it gets a second shot)
Triple Ballista (ballista gets a third shot)
Imbue Ballista (Imbue Arrow also affects the ballista)

In the current hot seat game I'm running with a friend my main hero, who has a lot of knowledge, has just picked up the War Machines skill and filled up Destruction after I found out my magic guild sported Implosion. This could be fun.

[Gamerlord]

Anyone know some way to get rid of grand elves quickly at low-teirs? I hate those blasted things, always making a mess out of my armies.

[MickJay]

Third game in the series? Try fighting them on autoresolve, or [mass] hasting your own units, and remember to use terrain obstacles and range penalty to reduce damage. Blind or Forgetfulness also help.

[Gamerlord]

Third game in the series? Try fighting them on autoresolve, or [mass] hasting your own units, and remember to use terrain obstacles and range penalty to reduce damage. Blind or Forgetfulness also help.

Thanks, and yes, number 3, its the best one,except for the balance issues.

[Tirian]

For some reason, whenever I think of M&M and 3DO, I get a feeling of deep regret. Jon Van Caneghem and his fellows could have easily become the Square-Enix of Western RPG, had they not made so many delibitating errors in developing their later games.

That's not really JvC's fault. M&M died at the same time as the Ultima and Wizardry franchises. It was a rough time for western RPGs, because FPS was bowling over players and reviewers every six months and they seemed to demand the same amazement from RPGs. I don't think that JvC t deserved the criticism he got for building M&M 6-8 from the same strong engine, but he did so he made 9 ... well, different. (Like Morty said, it isn't god-awful. Ultima VIII was god-awful. It's a step down to be sure, but you can play M&M9 through to the end, which puts it above the original in my eyes.)

[Dacia Brabant]

I've been giving HoMM4 a replay and, while I realize the game doesn't get a lot of love from the community, I'd like to ask if anyone has any suggestions on how to properly handle the Death faction?

I'm just focusing on campaigns--so far I've beaten Nature's (kinda meh) and Order's (freaking awesome) and would like to work on Death's but, since the castle has both living and undead units, and therefore has guaranteed morale penalties if you mix them, I'm not sure what direction to go with it.

[Dhavaer]

Any recommendations for favoured enemies in the Ranger campaign?

[Jamin]

I've been giving HoMM4 a replay and, while I realize the game doesn't get a lot of love from the community, I'd like to ask if anyone has any suggestions on how to properly handle the Death faction?

I'm just focusing on campaigns--so far I've beaten Nature's (kinda meh) and Order's (freaking awesome) and would like to work on Death's but, since the castle has both living and undead units, and therefore has guaranteed morale penalties if you mix them, I'm not sure what direction to go with it.

Umm.. all of death's units are immure to the moral penalties of undead units

[Voldecanter]

I tried playing heroes IV , I wasn't impressed . I guess I am just tooo Fond of the Heroes of Might and Magic 2 and 3 styles .

[MrChris]

I remember playing a lot of the first three Heroes games back in the day, as well as the first six Might and Magic games back in my misspent youth. I kind of got the impressions that with the fourth Heroes game, and some of the later M&M RPGs, that the designers were trying to keep the franchise from stagnating, without shaking it up to the point it ran off the rails; it's a shame they didn't quite succeed in that effort.

Nevertheless, I'm another one of those folks who liked Heroes 3 the best. The balance between heroes and castle types was quite good, and it was the first game in the series to give each hero a unique ability to differentiate them from others of the same class. I also liked the little biographies for each hero; as rudimentary as they were, they added a nice bit of flavor to the game. I also liked the structure of the original single-player campaign. It provided justification to have the player use each of the troop types available in the game, and also kept the narrative fairly interesting. While you, as the player, had to win every scenario, you were playing as a different side in each segment of the campaign, so it wasn't like one side was winning constantly.

By comparison, in Heroes 2, I never could understand the incentive for the player to switch sides halfway through the campaign. If you're constantly beating the opposition and gaining various bonuses for your side, why would you want to give up everything you've won to fight on the losing side?

For the record, I tended to prefer playing the Inferno troops in Heroes 3, for all the aforementioned reasons. Yes, the ranged troops were awful, but the sheer number of demons and imps one could field were quite impressive. I recall that devils had middle-of-the-road statistics for top-tier troops, but they still performed pretty well for me, and the fact that enemies couldn't retaliate them really helped their kill-to-casualty ratio.

I have fond memories of the original Heroes, as well, since it was quite unlike anything else which on the market when it was released (with the exception of King's Bounty, of course). The last few scenarios of the campaign in that one were kind of a slog, though, especially those where you only had one opponent who had a massive home-field advantage. I played through the campaign as the Warlock, which did give rise to my favorite degenerate strategy: build up to dragons as quickly as possible, build up the mage guild to learn Storm or Armageddon, and rely on those spells, in conjunction with the dragons' magic immunity, to wipe out every enemy army before they can kill my single stack of dragons. It felt almost like cheating, but I say it's perfectly acceptable to use cheap tactics as a counter to cheap scenario design.