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taltamir
2009-10-08, 04:09 AM
I keep hearing about chicken infested commoners... what are those? where from?

PS. also where are the "vow of X" "anti feats" (give you extra feat when you take them) from?

Vangor
2009-10-08, 04:15 AM
Chicken infested is a flaw for Commoners, I believe in one of the Dragon Magazines.

Vows are from Book of Exalted Deeds.

Not sure about the "anti feats" you are discussing. I know of spells which allow you to remove previous features and then replace those with feats, which are Shun the Dark Chaos and Embrace the Dark Chaos from Book of Vile Deeds (I think).

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-08, 04:17 AM
Anti feats? Flaws are in Unearthed Arcana and sound like what you are looking for.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 04:20 AM
anti feat is a name i made up... I just know that in some builds people take things like "vow of poverty, vow of non violence" etc and it gives them extra feats... flaws sound about right. I will look them up in UA
what does chicken infested actually do?

SparkMandriller
2009-10-08, 04:22 AM
The Vows don't give you extra feats. They are feats.


Oh, wait, you must be thinking of Vow of Poverty. That gives you free feats. But it takes all your money, so it's not really all that free.

Zombimode
2009-10-08, 04:24 AM
I think it gives a 50% chance to draw a chicken, when trying to draw something out of something.
Eg. when you reach into your pocket for a copper piece to tip the bartender you have a 50% chance to draw a chicken instead.
But I might be corrected.

Serpentine
2009-10-08, 04:27 AM
Chicken infested was a joke commoner feat. Every time you draw, retrieve or other wise "take something out", there's a % chance that, instead of what you want, you'll draw a chicken. I believe it ends with something along the lines of "Where do all these chickens come from? How am I meant to know? They're your chickens."

>hurls a chicken at Zombimode<

taltamir
2009-10-08, 04:27 AM
where do i find vow of poverty? the other vows?

as for flaws, some are really nice... -2 to melee attacks and -1 to ac for two extra feats on my wizard? yes please!

taltamir
2009-10-08, 04:29 AM
I think it gives a 50% chance to draw a chicken, when trying to draw something out of something.
Eg. when you reach into your pocket for a copper piece to tip the bartender you have a 50% chance to draw a chicken instead.
But I might be corrected.

how much money is a chicken worth? on average 5 chickens per minute out of thin air sounds awesome... id corner the poultry market, feed everyone... maybe get myself declared a messiah...

Vangor
2009-10-08, 04:30 AM
anti feat is a name i made up... I just know that in some builds people take things like "vow of poverty, vow of non violence" etc and it gives them extra feats... flaws sound about right. I will look them up in UA
what does chicken infested actually do?

Yes, those would be Flaws. You may take two and those give you instant feats for first level, however, not all DMs allow this as those are a variant from UA which can easily create balance issues.

Vow of Poverty from BoED does offer additional exalted feats first, second, and every two levels beyond this. Needs Sacred Vow feat to be able to take, and Vow of Poverty means you are allowed no equipment beyond a simple weapon and clothes, and no money. As well, you must be good to the extent of remaining exalted.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 04:35 AM
so vow of poverty is for lawful good monks, or good druids basically?

Eloel
2009-10-08, 04:38 AM
so vow of poverty is for lawful good monks, or good druids basically?

Unarmed Swordsages are better than Monks in every way, including being VoP'd.

Meldshapers pee all over the concept of not having magic items - they already filled their item slots with soulmelds... (So, they're the kick-ass VoP users)

Vangor
2009-10-08, 04:40 AM
so vow of poverty is for lawful good monks, or good druids basically?

Anyone can make decent use, but yes monks and druids benefit the most. I believe the only people who need be truly concerned are Wizards and anyone else who uses a spellbook. VoP gives significant benefits, but the fact is with a little effort magic items could be chosen which far outmatch the benefits of VoP.

Kobold-Bard
2009-10-08, 04:48 AM
where do i find vow of poverty? the other vows?

as for flaws, some are really nice... -2 to melee attacks and -1 to ac for two extra feats on my wizard? yes please!

Most DM's will make you take a Flaw that has an actual consequence to your character. eg. if you're building a Wizard they'll say not to Noncombatant, but will let you take Slow or Weak Willed. Remember the DM can say no to anything, regardless of how helpful it may be to you.


Vow's are in Book of Exalted Deeds. Most are a bit rubbish; a bonus to certain things in exchange for something eg. bonus to resist Poison as long as you never take drugs.

Poverty is the big one, especialy or Druids because you can use the free Exalted Feats it gives you to take Exalted Wild Shape (all your Wild Shape forms get the Celestial Template or something like that) and Exalted Animal Companion (get a Blink Dog and you/the Rogue have a permanent Flanking Partner).

sonofzeal
2009-10-08, 04:51 AM
Vow of Nonviolence/Peace is pretty badass, as long as you don't rely on dealing actual damage yourself. Enchanter and Illusionists love this vow.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 04:59 AM
Vow of Nonviolence/Peace is pretty badass, as long as you don't rely on dealing actual damage yourself. Enchanter and Illusionists love this vow.

I didn't kill him, i just made him unable to see the guy swinging the sword at him... what? i am still a pacifist!
pretty funny... kinda like how clerics get a mace because of the whole "don't shed blood" vow...

Zeta Kai
2009-10-08, 05:22 AM
Since no one else has said it, I'll point out that the real fun of a chicken-infested Commoner begins when they get their hands on a spell component pouch. By RAW, a SCP has nigh-infinite items within it, & drawing from a SCP is a free action. Ergo, said Commoner can drown his enemies in chickens. Let the cheese commence.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 05:25 AM
Since no one else has said it, I'll point out that the real fun of a chicken-infested Commoner begins when they get their hands on a spell component pouch. By RAW, a SCP has nigh-infinite items within it, & drawing from a SCP is a free action. Ergo, said Commoner can drown his enemies in chickens. Let the cheese commence.

he just fill a pouch with dirt... now draw "a pinch of dirt" every round... when you run out of dirt, just refill it. I assumed that when i suggested he make himself rich by selling all the chickens / starting a massive chicken range.

he might be a commoner, but he can afford +5 inherent bonuses to all attributes, +6 slotted items of same, and a bunch of specific magic items of choice.

bosssmiley
2009-10-08, 05:25 AM
Chicken Infested is the reason we were given 4E.

It originated as a joke feat in an April Fool's issue of Dragon magazine, but people started using it as the basis of a few cheesy CO'ed builds. Having thus proved that a small subset of D&D players could not be trusted to get the joke WOTC responded by deleting f'ing everything!!!!! and giving people a 'no user-servicable parts' D&D game with less scope for tacky abuse.

Of course, being a bunch of semi-trained typewriter monkeys who fear mathematics intent on pursuing a GW/Blizzard-inspired inbuilt obsolescence model of game design, WOTC made an ungodly mess of their new release. That is why official D&D offers a world of Orbizards, Laser Clerics, Bullysauruses, AffectTerrain=0 character abilities, saves-per-round, constant "We have always been at war with Eurasia" errata and the like which bears no meaningful resemblance to what Gary Gygax wrote about.

And that is why people who use Chicken Infested in their builds are the spawn of the devil. :smallamused:

As for Vow of Poverty. That's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds which really shouldn't be a feat at all. It's actually a complete overhaul of the "wealth = power" mechanical model of 3E. Instead of getting magic items as they level up, VoP characters instead gain innate abilities in return for eschewing the power that comes from wealth.

If the Vow had been set up as a substantial alternative system mechanic, rather than just being a single feat in an "ok trending to awful" splatbook, the development of modern D&D might have taken a very different path. Picture something a little more like Mutants and Masterminds, but fantasy-flavoured, and you get the gist...

taltamir
2009-10-08, 05:27 AM
there was one where a holloween version came up with a mage who cuts off his own head and replaces it with a pumpkin... i have seen it used as a dip in builds :)

I don't think it is a matter of trust, the system encouraged munchikenery... you cannot encourage something and then be upset when people utilize it. it will be stupid of them NOT to use it. that doesn't mean though that 4E actually solves things effectively :)

Cyclocone
2009-10-08, 05:40 AM
he just fill a pouch with dirt... now draw "a pinch of dirt" every round... when you run out of dirt, just refill it. I assumed that when i suggested he make himself rich by selling all the chickens / starting a massive chicken range.

Ahhh, but drawing dirt from a bag is not a free action; i see that
your cluck-fu is weak (http://www.dndonlinegames.com/showthread.php?t=57198), who has trained you??

kamikasei
2009-10-08, 05:57 AM
It originated as a joke feat in an April Fool's issue of Dragon magazine, but people started using it as the basis of a few cheesy CO'ed builds. Having thus proved that a small subset of D&D players could not be trusted to get the joke WOTC responded by deleting f'ing everything!!!!! and giving people a 'no user-servicable parts' D&D game with less scope for tacky abuse.
...
And that is why people who use Chicken Infested in their builds are the spawn of the devil. :smallamused:

I'm amused by the idea that it's the ones using Chicken Infested in TO builds who "didn't get the joke". Did it ever reach the point of anyone proposing using the feat in an actual at-table build with a straight face?

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-08, 07:00 AM
"We have always been at war with Eurasia"

I like the whole post, but this one is particulary good.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-08, 09:12 AM
Since no one else has said it, I'll point out that the real fun of a chicken-infested Commoner begins when they get their hands on a spell component pouch. By RAW, a SCP has nigh-infinite items within it, & drawing from a SCP is a free action.
It's only a free action as part of casting a spell with a material component. Otherwise, it's retrieving a stored item, which is a move action. Still, producing a chicken 5 times a minute on average should keep you in business.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 12:20 PM
how much money is a chicken worth? on average 5 chickens per minute out of thin air sounds awesome... id corner the poultry market, feed everyone... maybe get myself declared a messiah...

I lol'd at the idea of a Chicken Mesiah. Silly commoner-only flaws.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-08, 01:56 PM
It's only a free action as part of casting a spell with a material component. Otherwise, it's retrieving a stored item, which is a move action. Still, producing a chicken 5 times a minute on average should keep you in business.

Heward's Handy Haversack, as per DMG errata, allows indefinite free action retrieval. Since the item you're searching for (chicken) is always on top.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 02:00 PM
Heward's Handy Haversack, as per DMG errata, allows indefinite free action retrieval. Since the item you're searching for (chicken) is always on top.

Wouldn't that override Chicken retrieval, as you aren't looking for a chicken, unless you're storing chickens in your Handy Haversack, which sounds like a good way to ruin it in my opinion. Either that or you're going to be carrying around a lot of dead chickens, which probably isn't desirable unless you want to open your own restaurant chain or something.

Grey Watcher
2009-10-08, 02:09 PM
Heward's Handy Haversack, as per DMG errata, allows indefinite free action retrieval. Since the item you're searching for (chicken) is always on top.

Wait, does Chicken Infested actually work if you WANT to draw a Chicken?

"I can pull chickens out of thin air, but only if I don't want to!"

Keshay
2009-10-08, 02:09 PM
Wouldn't that override Chicken retrieval, as you aren't looking for a chicken, unless you're storing chickens in your Handy Haversack, which sounds like a good way to ruin it in my opinion. Either that or you're going to be carrying around a lot of dead chickens, which probably isn't desirable unless you want to open your own restaurant chain or something.

Hmm, here's a new use for Chicken Infested: Convincing others you have healing powers. Put a dead chicken in a bag, reach for it to pull it out and you have a 50% chance of getting a live chicken instead. If you do manage to get the dead chicken, just put it back and try again. Chicken Messiah indeed.

Actually, does the flaw explicitly state that the chickens retreived are alive? If not, and you can pull dead chickens out of thin air, some of those Chicken Necromancer builds can skip a step.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-08, 02:12 PM
The trick lies in ammunition.

Said commoner buys a quiver of 20 arrows from the general store.
This quiver is placed on the counter.
He attempts to draw them all, one at a time, using a free action to place them on the sales counter, beside the quiver.

On average, he receives 10 chickens.
He sells the chickens and the arrows back. (at half value)

He buys 4 quivers with the profit.
Gets 40 chickens.

Then 16 quivers.
Feeds an entire town.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-08, 02:19 PM
Heward's Handy Haversack, as per DMG errata, allows indefinite free action retrieval. Since the item you're searching for (chicken) is always on top.
Where did you get that idea? From the Official D&D Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a) page, there has been no update to the Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5 Errata (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DMG_Errata032004.zip) since 2004. And there is no mention of Heward's Handy Haversack in that file.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-08, 02:20 PM
:smallconfused:

I'll take your word for it. Yet I clearly remember reading a .pdf file labeled "Dungeon Master's Guide Errata", with references that implied it was 3.5, and that made withdrawing items from a Haversack into a free action. Must have been unofficial.

But yeah, quivers work.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-08, 02:22 PM
Chicken Infested + Spell Component Pouch + Quick Draw. Darts are a material component for the spell Melf's Acid Arrow, and since they have no listed cost, there are an arbitrarily large number of them in one pouch...somehow. Since they are weapons, Quick Draw lets you draw them as a free action, and they can be dropped as a free action. You can now draw an arbitrarily large number of chickens each round as free actions.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-08, 02:37 PM
Umm. . .Darts have a listed price, 5 sp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)

The Dark Fiddler
2009-10-08, 02:42 PM
The trick lies in ammunition.

Said commoner buys a quiver of 20 arrows from the general store.
This quiver is placed on the counter.
He attempts to draw them all, one at a time, using a free action to place them on the sales counter, beside the quiver.

On average, he receives 10 chickens.
He sells the chickens and the arrows back. (at half value)

He buys 4 quivers with the profit.
Gets 40 chickens.

Then 16 quivers.
Feeds an entire town.

Shopkeeper: Right... I guess I can't see any harm in selling you four more quivers...
Commoner draws 40 chickens and tries to sell them again.
Shopkeeper (assuming he's got an intelligence score above 7): Get out of my store.

Sliver
2009-10-08, 02:49 PM
Wait, if you want to draw a chicken, do you have 50% to draw that chicken and 50% to draw a random chicken from the plane of chicken? So having a bag of holding full of chicken will allow you, on avarage, to draw 50% more chickens than what was placed in the BoH in the first place.. with those 50% being random plane of chicken chickens, and the rest were "specific" you had before...

So if you just want to feed people and don't care about actions, you get a backpack, or a belt pouch which is cheaper, and put a stone in it. You draw it. If its a stone, you put it back. If its a chicken, you put it back! now, next time you get the stone, throw it away. Now you have a bag with at least one chicken and nothing else.. Or a belt pouch with a chicken? 100% to draw a chicken, with 50% of gating a chicken instead of taking one out..

It should be an epic feat... 50% chance to access the plane of chicken is way OP..

taltamir
2009-10-08, 03:21 PM
Shopkeeper: Right... I guess I can't see any harm in selling you four more quivers...
Commoner draws 40 chickens and tries to sell them again.
Shopkeeper (assuming he's got an intelligence score above 7): Get out of my store.

is the shopkeeper in person opposed to profit?

Sliver
2009-10-08, 03:30 PM
is the shopkeeper in person opposed to profit?

When you have enough chickens, you won't be able to sell them all.. No profit in buying them..

Anyway, the entire world's population is fine anyway.. Some commoner is walking around giving away free chicken.. What? you thought you are the first?

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 03:32 PM
is the shopkeeper in person opposed to profit?

How's he profit? He's losing money to the mook pulling chickens out of freshly bought quivers. And what if he doesn't deal in livestock? Not every general store wants to deal with planar chickens, y'know...

taltamir
2009-10-08, 03:37 PM
the shopkeeper should:
1. buy only as many chickens as he personally need,for food; at less than market price.
2. sell him as many quivers as he wants, for profit
3. propose a business partnership to corner the poultry market...

I don't see why he should kick him out of his store... he can just refuse to buy the chickens, demand a much lower price, or only buy a few chickens... and continue to sell as much as he wants.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 03:48 PM
the shopkeeper should:
1. buy only as many chickens as he personally need,for food; at less than market price.
2. sell him as many quivers as he wants, for profit
3. propose a business partnership to corner the poultry market...

I don't see why he should kick him out of his store... he can just refuse to buy the chickens, demand a much lower price, or only buy a few chickens... and continue to sell as much as he wants.

I don't know, pulling chickens out of places sounds like a good way to get strung up for witchcraft, especially if you do it often enough in the same town. You'd also probably drive the price of chickens into the ground, as the supply vastly outpaces the demand. They're also hardly a gold mine, as the normal going rate of chickens is 2 coppers a piece. Driving the supply up means no one would want to buy any and not accept them as payment.

Them's my chicken. Take as you will.

SartheKobold
2009-10-08, 03:53 PM
Chicken Infested + Spell Component Pouch + Quick Draw. Darts are a material component for the spell Melf's Acid Arrow, and since they have no listed cost, there are an arbitrarily large number of them in one pouch...somehow. Since they are weapons, Quick Draw lets you draw them as a free action, and they can be dropped as a free action. You can now draw an arbitrarily large number of chickens each round as free actions.

I think we need a 5/10/20 Level Poultomancer Build right here in River City? Who's with me?

taltamir
2009-10-08, 06:26 PM
I don't know, pulling chickens out of places sounds like a good way to get strung up for witchcraft, especially if you do it often enough in the same town. You'd also probably drive the price of chickens into the ground, as the supply vastly outpaces the demand. They're also hardly a gold mine, as the normal going rate of chickens is 2 coppers a piece. Driving the supply up means no one would want to buy any and not accept them as payment.

Them's my chicken. Take as you will.

people aren't persecuted for witchcraft in the DnD world... it has real wizards, clerics, celestials and demons all over the place. So shoe horning a real world religious view unto them makes no sense. Heck, of the large number of religions I am familiar, exactly ONE had ever had witch persecutions.

awa
2009-10-08, 06:37 PM
Other religions have persecuted witches saying that's just silly but its also a real world religious topic and thus not worth getting into.
also the chickens arnt magic their not just appearing they already exist why you have stuffed chickens into every pocket is your own problem

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-08, 08:22 PM
Page two and the real cheese hasn't been mentioned yet...

Chicken Infested + Great Cleave + Gnomish Quickrazor + Quick Draw + Warmind 5

Gnomish Quickrazor can be pulled as a free action. So you rapidly pull and sheath your Quickrazor until you get a chicken. Kill the chicken, get a free attack against an opponent you threaten. Repeat ad infinitum.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 08:24 PM
people aren't persecuted for witchcraft in the DnD world... it has real wizards, clerics, celestials and demons all over the place. So shoe horning a Christian view unto them makes no sense (and AFAIK Christians are the only real world religion that persecuted "witches")

WotC brang up witch hunts on their own with alternate magic systems like Binders, no real world religions involved. Also, just because magic exists in a world doesn't mean it's prevalent or accepted as a norm. Arcane magic is likely to get you killed in Dark Sun. There are even regions in Faerun where unlicensed magic can get you jailed and executed.

Now, whether this occurs depends on where you are and what kind of extremists are about. All I'm saying is there's a possibility that it could be construed as such by gullible sorts that don't know any better, especially in smaller villages. Not every person in a world will know what magic really looks like and when people react to unknown phenomena, it's not always positive.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 08:39 PM
there is absolutely no real reason in game to do so. You can go down to church where a freaking celestial TELLS You that arcane magic is not evil... of course, raising the dead is evil...

And yes, my point was that it is shoe horning real world religion into the game which shouldn't be done.

Woodsman
2009-10-08, 08:47 PM
Ahhh, but drawing dirt from a bag is not a free action; i see that
your cluck-fu is weak (http://www.dndonlinegames.com/showthread.php?t=57198), who has trained you??

I was trained by one of the best cluck-fu masters alive.

You think you can challenge me?

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 08:52 PM
there is absolutely no real reason in game to do so. You can go down to church where a freaking celestial TELLS You that arcane magic is not evil... of course, raising the dead is evil...

And yes, my point was that it is shoe horning real world religion into the game which shouldn't be done.

I'm not shoe horning anything into anything, thank you.

I think we should just agree to disagree on this and leave it at that. I don't feel like getting banned or receiving a warning for not bringing up what you are accusing of.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-08, 09:08 PM
Page two and the real cheese hasn't been mentioned yet...

Chicken Infested + Great Cleave + Gnomish Quickrazor + Quick Draw + Warmind 5

Gnomish Quickrazor can be pulled as a free action. So you rapidly pull and sheath your Quickrazor until you get a chicken. Kill the chicken, get a free attack against an opponent you threaten. Repeat ad infinitum.

Find me the rulebook with stats for a chicken. Until then, chickens are not enemies, & are therefore not viable targets for a Cleave. Also, if your DM rules that the chickens are dead, then dead chickens are considered objects, & also do not count as viable targets for a Cleave.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-08, 09:25 PM
Find me the rulebook with stats for a chicken. Until then, chickens are not enemies, & are therefore not viable targets for a Cleave. Also, if your DM rules that the chickens are dead, then dead chickens are considered objects, & also do not count as viable targets for a Cleave.

So you are saying that a chicken is not able to be killed? Guess we won't be eating Poultry in taverns anymore...

taltamir
2009-10-08, 09:40 PM
So you are saying that a chicken is not able to be killed? Guess we won't be eating Poultry in taverns anymore...

I gotta remember it the next time my DM shows a creature that isn't in the mm...
Or heck, I am gonna find some mundane animal that has no stats and make it my familiar, ill send it into battle since it cannot be killed as it has no stats :)

The Glyphstone
2009-10-08, 09:40 PM
Umm. . .Darts have a listed price, 5 sp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)

Indeed they do. Happily, component pouches contain an arbitrary amount of any component costing less than 1G, so it's still fine.

SurlySeraph
2009-10-08, 10:29 PM
Indeed they do. Happily, component pouches contain an arbitrary amount of any component costing less than 1G, so it's still fine.

Uh oh. So in addition to everything else, wizards are arbitrarily rich as long as they keep pulling things out of their pouch?

Zeta Kai
2009-10-08, 10:34 PM
So you are saying that a chicken is not able to be killed? Guess we won't be eating Poultry in taverns anymore...

I mean that a chicken is no more a monster than a roach, or a worm, & therefore is not subject to your combat cheese.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 10:35 PM
Uh oh. So in addition to everything else, wizards are arbitrarily rich as long as they keep pulling things out of their pouch?

only by the raw... although technically, they cannot sell those, as everyone else with a component pouch has the same unlimited ingredients...
Although to be honest, this is more of a "don't sweat the details" mechanics... kind of like how adventurer outfits include a variety of pieces.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-08, 11:15 PM
Uh oh. So in addition to everything else, wizards are arbitrarily rich as long as they keep pulling things out of their pouch?

Indeed. But as we are currently discussing said wizards turning their planet into a singularity by producing [aleph] chickens as a free action, being really rich becomes a bit of a moot point. it's RAW...Really Amazingly Weird.:smallsmile:

taltamir
2009-10-08, 11:47 PM
aleph? the hebrew letter equivalent to alpha? is that a term for infinity?

Zeta Kai
2009-10-09, 12:09 AM
aleph? the hebrew letter equivalent to alpha? is that a term for infinity?

It's a bit more complex than that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number), but for the purpose of these discussions, you can basically read "aleph" as "nigh-infinite".

sofawall
2009-10-09, 12:21 AM
people aren't persecuted for witchcraft in the DnD world... it has real wizards, clerics, celestials and demons all over the place. So shoe horning a real world religious view unto them makes no sense. Heck, of the large number of religions I am familiar, exactly ONE had ever had witch persecutions.

That came the hell out of nowhere.

First of all, you're wrong by RAW, Witch Hunts do exist in D&D, ways it sould happen and places it does happen have been printed in official WotC D&D 3.5 rulebooks.

Second, why do you need to bring real world religions into this?

taltamir
2009-10-09, 12:22 AM
oh cool it really IS the hebrew letter :)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-09, 01:06 PM
I mean that a chicken is no more a monster than a roach, or a worm, & therefore is not subject to your combat cheese.

Really? Because that's not how the feat reads...


If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature.

Bolded for emphasis. A Chicken *IS* a creature. Therefore, Cleave triggers upon its death. It doesn't say 'opponent', like the ToB stance which heals with every hit, it doesn't say 'monster', it says 'creature', which a Chicken certainly is.

Cieyrin
2009-10-09, 01:29 PM
Bolded for emphasis. A Chicken *IS* a creature. Therefore, Cleave triggers upon its death. It doesn't say 'opponent', like the ToB stance which heals with every hit, it doesn't say 'monster', it says 'creature', which a Chicken certainly is.

If we really want to stat up Chickens, the MM recommends using the Raven stats, though probably with a reduced flight speed and maneuverability, probably fly 10 ft (clumsy).

In any case, this seems to fall under the jurisdiction of the DM going "Bad player, no cookie!", as this is pretty reminiscent of the Bag of Snails or the Bag of Puppies and those only fly on the assumption that the DM in question is a moron to let it go (which we hopefully don't assume, as the DMs I play with tend to be level-headed nice people that I wouldn't bad mouth. Nope. >_>;;).

Them's my chicken. Take as you will.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-09, 02:31 PM
If we really want to stat up Chickens, the MM recommends using the Raven stats, though probably with a reduced flight speed and maneuverability, probably fly 10 ft (clumsy).

In any case, this seems to fall under the jurisdiction of the DM going "Bad player, no cookie!", as this is pretty reminiscent of the Bag of Snails or the Bag of Puppies and those only fly on the assumption that the DM in question is a moron to let it go (which we hopefully don't assume, as the DMs I play with tend to be level-headed nice people that I wouldn't bad mouth. Nope. >_>;;).

Them's my chicken. Take as you will.

Oh, absolutely. It is an improvement on the Bag of Puppies cheese, in that I have NI cute and helpless things to mercilessly slaughter, rather than being limited by how many puppies I can cram into a bag and not end up with deaths before I have a chance to kill them.

I never suggested this as a serious build which should actually be played. Like Pun-Pun, the Hulking Hurler, and other infinite loop builds, it is just a mental exercise to make a rules-legal infinite loop.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 02:39 PM
Really? Because that's not how the feat reads...



Bolded for emphasis. A Chicken *IS* a creature. Therefore, Cleave triggers upon its death. It doesn't say 'opponent', like the ToB stance which heals with every hit, it doesn't say 'monster', it says 'creature', which a Chicken certainly is.

yes... and as for RAI...
what if you are trying to kill a bunch of chickens?
shouldn't killing a bunch of chickens be easier than killing a bunch of creatures?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-09, 02:59 PM
yes... and as for RAI...
what if you are trying to kill a bunch of chickens?
shouldn't killing a bunch of chickens be easier than killing a bunch of creatures?

The trick is that by killing chickens, you are getting more attacks against your primary target.

Combo is thusly:

I have Warmind 5, which grants me Sweeping Strike. When I swing, I can hit two things next to each other.

I have Great Cleave. When I kill a creature, I get a free shot.

Gnomish Quickrazor can be pulled and sheathed as a free action.

I pull the Quickrazor until a chicken is pulled instead. Drop the chicken next to the opponent, pull quickrazor again, assuming no chicken, I attack them both with Sweeping Strike. I kill the chicken, so I get a free hit. So I generate another chicken as a free action. Continue until target is dead from ten thousand cuts.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 05:44 PM
nice little bug in the rules... but this is why you have a DM. who would not let you use it in this way... now if you want to kill a bunch of chickens, go ahead... but not for infinite great cleaves against someone

The Glyphstone
2009-10-09, 08:22 PM
nice little bug in the rules... but this is why you have a DM. who would not let you use it in this way... now if you want to kill a bunch of chickens, go ahead... but not for infinite great cleaves against someone

That's sort of the definition of theoretical optimization - crazy stuff that you could never actually do in a real game, and should never actually attempt even if you could and wanted to.

sofawall
2009-10-09, 09:10 PM
Gnomish Quickrazor can be pulled and sheathed as a free action.

Only as part of an attack.

But there are other free action infinite things.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 09:40 PM
Only as part of an attack.

But there are other free action infinite things.

also, that makes the problem being the "infinte free actions" not "cleaving chickens"...

I'd say a more sensible fix is "you cannot perform infinite free actions in a turn" instead of "you cannot perform a cleave on a chicken". Because the infinite free actions is the actual source of the problem, and can be broken in a theoretically infinite amount of ways.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-09, 09:41 PM
I'd say a more sensible fix is "you cannot perform infinite free actions in a turn" instead of "you cannot perform a cleave on a chicken". Because the infinite free actions is the actual source of the problem, and can be broken in a theoretically infinite amount of ways.

Or you could fix both? See bag of rats for an example. Cleaving pathetically weak creatures has problems of its own, as does infinite free actions.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 09:45 PM
Or you could fix both? See bag of rats for an example. Cleaving pathetically weak creatures has problems of its own, as does infinite free actions.

a bunch of identical creatures in a single 5 foot area are considered a swarm, and thus cannot be cleaved.

sofawall
2009-10-09, 09:46 PM
Or you could fix both? See bag of rats for an example. Cleaving pathetically weak creatures has problems of its own, as does infinite free actions.

This.

Also, Free Actions are major pain in the ***. This is why there is a cap to them in the Test of Spite (although where to put the cap is highly debated)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-09, 09:48 PM
As long as we're arguing the ridiculously illogical points of RAW...

For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity.
Unless you have enough Fine/Diminutive/Tiny creatures to fill 10 feet, it's not a swarm. More concretely,

A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not.
Unless there are 300 rats in your bag, it won't be a swarm.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 09:48 PM
This.

Also, Free Actions are major pain in the ***. This is why there is a cap to them in the Test of Spite (although where to put the cap is highly debated)

what is broken about cleaving chickens that isn't broken about cleaving goblins?

You can kill 10 goblins in a single round and thats fine, but you kill 10 chickens in a single round and now is broken?

Although, GREAT cleave does have the brokeness of giving you infinite cleaving... anything infinite is bad. I would just go with making it 3 cleaves per round. Sure you can cleave rats or chickens... but a limit to how many applies (same as it would if you were cleaving goblins)

taltamir
2009-10-09, 09:52 PM
As long as we're arguing the ridiculously illogical points of RAW...

Unless you have enough Fine/Diminutive/Tiny creatures to fill 10 feet, it's not a swarm. More concretely,

Unless there are 300 rats in your bag, it won't be a swarm.

awesome... so how can i remove ONE rat from a bag containing 300 rats... so i could use greatcleave to kill the other 299 rats?

sofawall
2009-10-09, 09:56 PM
what is broken about cleaving chickens that isn't broken about cleaving goblins?

You can kill 10 goblins in a single round and thats fine, but you kill 10 chickens in a single round and now is broken?

Although, GREAT cleave does have the brokeness of giving you infinite cleaving... anything infinite is bad. I would just go with making it 3 cleaves per round. Sure you can cleave rats or chickens... but a limit to how many applies (same as it would if you were cleaving goblins)

Chickens are infinite.

Rats can fit in a bag and not take up all that much space.

Great Cleave is a greater problem.

Yes, removing one member of a swarm makes it just a lot of creatures.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-09, 11:42 PM
I think that I should point out that we are discussing a Commoner-only flaw (flaws being a variant rule that is not supported in all games), published in the April Fool's issue of a second-party magazine. It's a joke of a variant, as written by a non-WotC (albeit close to WotC) publisher. This is one tiny step away from amateur homebrew, & should be viewed in that context. I fail to see why people get worked up over this flaw, besides it's moderate humor value. It's funny, but not worthy of the attention it receives. And the cheese necessary to do anything significant with it is of Pazuzu-Pun-Punian proportions (say that three times fast).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-09, 11:54 PM
I think that I should point out that we are discussing a Commoner-only flaw (flaws being a variant rule that is not supported in all games), published in the April Fool's issue of a second-party magazine. It's a joke of a variant, as written by a non-WotC (albeit close to WotC) publisher. This is one tiny step away from amateur homebrew, & should be viewed in that context. I fail to see why people get worked up over this flaw, besides it's moderate humor value. It's funny, but not worthy of the attention it receives. And the cheese necessary to do anything significant with it is of Pazuzu-Pun-Punian proportions (say that three times fast).

Meh, it's nowhere near on the scale of Pun-Pun, although it does rank up there with Hulking Hurler.

I do it because it is a joke, and it is amusing. I'm also tickled that people actually take it seriously. I made the NI attack build because it is so rediculous that no one could ever take it seriously. Your first reaction should be "OMG! That's funny as hell, good one." not "OMG! NERF BAT!". It is not intended, and has never BEEN intended, to be an actual, playable build. It was designed as a joke about a joke. Besides, it was fun to min-max a build containing at least one level in Commoner. Almost as much fun as my CW Samurai build.

Devilboy
2009-10-10, 07:27 AM
So, hang on, you quick draw the razorblade? You only do that as part of your attack, so apparently you have a 50% chance of smacking your chicken, (and the goblin next to you, note) WITH ANOTHER CHICKEN. Then you apparently CLEAVE A CHICKEN WITH A CHICKEN and hit another chicken? Do you cleave that chicken too? I'm lost...all I know is that it's the most farcical attack combo ever...multiple smacks with chickens is lol.

Anyway, I'd go with Mage Hand as an amusing distraction.

'I pick up the chalk'
'No, A chicken appears on the other side of the room.'

Other options...dentist attempting to remove a tooth.

"Apparently, there was a chicken in your throat sir."
"I knew I felt a little down in the mouth..."

*ducks from rotten vegetables*

Archers can NEVER take this flaw...unless they want to fire chickens at people. Which is cool.

OMG....suddenly realised that the peasant railgun could be modified to use (near) infinite chicken ammo...just have the first 10 or so people in the chain have this flaw, and then they arbitrarily throw chickens at Mach 5, instead of whatever they used before, 1023 times out of 1024.

sofawall
2009-10-10, 12:11 PM
I liked the chicken joke.

Zain
2009-10-10, 02:03 PM
OMG....suddenly realised that the peasant railgun could be modified to use (near) infinite chicken ammo...just have the first 10 or so people in the chain have this flaw, and then they arbitrarily throw chickens at Mach 5, instead of whatever they used before, 1023 times out of 1024.

what is the peasant railgun

i know how a real railgun works but the peasant part is lost on me...:smallconfused:

Gralamin
2009-10-10, 02:05 PM
OMG....suddenly realised that the peasant railgun could be modified to use (near) infinite chicken ammo...just have the first 10 or so people in the chain have this flaw, and then they arbitrarily throw chickens at Mach 5, instead of whatever they used before, 1023 times out of 1024.

Quarterstaves work better because they always work. The Amount of time it takes to craft an item that costs 0 is no time.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 02:30 PM
what is the peasant railgun

i know how a real railgun works but the peasant part is lost on me...:smallconfused:

You can pass an item to someone next to you as an action.

Have 5,000 peasants line up. Take a Quarterstaff, give it to the first peasant, who passes it to the next, and so forth.

When the last peasant lets go, it will have gone from rest to five kilometers in 10 seconds. That is an acceleration of .5K per Second. You do the math on the kenetic energy released when it hits something...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 02:32 PM
Chicken Infested + Greater Consumptive Field + Reserves of Strength = Infinite or arbitrarily high caster level.

sofawall
2009-10-10, 04:09 PM
You can pass an item to someone next to you as an action.

Have 5,000 peasants line up. Take a Quarterstaff, give it to the first peasant, who passes it to the next, and so forth.

When the last peasant lets go, it will have gone from rest to five kilometers in 10 seconds. That is an acceleration of .5K per Second. You do the math on the kenetic energy released when it hits something...

Except it doesn't work. If we're using silly RAW for a thought exercise, you must keep RAW the whole way through, and no matter how fast something is moving, dropping it just makes it fall in your space.

Throwing it can go, what, 10 feet? And do 1d3 damage?