Lost a player to a pun-pun...couldnt be happier

[Korivan]

While this is somewhat of a rant, I will be asking real questions that anyone here is more then welcome to answer, clerify, and expand on.

Recently, as in just a few hours ago, a gaming session ended early due to problems with a problem player. To clerify, this was a guy that we stopped inviting to the table back in 2nd edition. All his characters had 2-3 (18) ability scores, with nothing under 10. He was the type to play CN, and use that as an excuse to be evil (though by his definition, extortion of sex, killing fellow PC's for being stronger, using cause X wounds spells on people instead of cure spells cause that character would not "convert", making plans to defend strongholds with the group, turn around, and do nothing and letting us die...were never considered Evil acts for him.) He was also the type that was anti-social, ingame and out. His characters would not participate in RP with the group, and so, by his definition, most of his characters hated/distrusted the group. The guy quite entire sessions cause he couldn't get a Deck of Many things. When he did get them in certain sessions, he had to play with them his way. Which promptly lead to him drawing nothing but the good stuff. And a big time cheater. I don't make people roll infront of me, I prefer the honor system...so far, I've had plenty of poor rolls from my group to convince me they don't cheat.

Anyways, recently he convinced the rest of my group to let him in, and I in a Epic Fail of the Common Sense Skill...failed my check, allowing him to join. Having not converted to 3-3.5 with us, I figured he would not know enough to make trouble...oops. He comes in with a kolbold. And proceeds to try to make a Pun-Pun(I've looked it up, I know what to watch out for). Then, when I start banning his abilities, or restricting them so that he can't make one, he gets angrey. Now, I thought, and have no intention of changing my mind, that the DM has COMPLETE authority to restrict stuff when they deem it necessary. Now, he goes off on a tangent that I can't stop him cause what he's doing isn't illegal based on the written rules...blah blah blah.

Anyways, long story short (too late), after about a hour long argument, some name calling, he left, vowing never to play with us again, saying I was biased, crappy DM, out to get him, too restrictive...blah blah blah. Fine, whatever, I feel I'm justified.

Has anyone ever had a player build a Pun-Pun?, and if so, did you even allow it?

[Kylarra]

Why would you allow a thought experiment into the game?

the above is a rhetorical question in response to your question

[Temet Nosce]

Wait... he complained that you wouldn't let him use a character with stats measured in aleph numbers and every ability in the game? Yeah, it's RAW legal but it's a thought exercise...

[Telonius]

Nope, never had that problem. In fact, in all of my settings, Pun-Pun already exists. He's the overgod, and has used the "Smite Cheese" ability to prevent any character from using any ultimate power loops.

[Kurald Galain]

Now, he goes off on a tangent that I can't stop him cause what he's doing isn't illegal based on the written rules...
Yeah, that gets old quick...

Overall, when people get really angry about minor things, that seems to be a good sign that they are wrong and/or have something to hide.

[Tavar]

Wow, to actually use a thought expirement? That guy just looses, no save.

[Korivan]

Why would you allow a thought experiment into the game?

the above is a rhetorical question in response to your question

We started at level 1. He's played kolbolds before in 2nd edition. So I didn't immediatly catch on. After leveling up to level 3, he slipped a bit and said some things he shouldn't have, and I caught on. Thats when I hit the fan.

[Kobold-Bard]

What a complete and utter a**hat.

Closest we've come to that was the guy who made an Archivist and then complained when he couldn't have any scroll he asked for (the majority of them being obscure Domain spells).

[Gametime]

Even the people who created Pun-Pun said it shouldn't ever be played. I can't imagine a player being a) inconsiderate enough to think it wouldn't harm the playing experience, and b) stupid enough to think the DM would allow it.

You made the right call. There is such a thing as going overboard with DM privilege, but banning Pun-Pun is nowhere near that mark.

[Kylarra]

We started at level 1. He's played kolbolds before in 2nd edition. So I didn't immediatly catch on. After leveling up to level 3, he slipped a bit and said some things he shouldn't have, and I caught on. Thats when I hit the fan.It wasn't a direct criticism against you, it was a response to your question about allowing Pun-Pun in general.

[SparkMandriller]

And he was so close to winning DnD!

[chiasaur11]

We started at level 1. He's played kolbolds before in 2nd edition. So I didn't immediatly catch on. After leveling up to level 3, he slipped a bit and said some things he shouldn't have, and I caught on. Thats when I hit the fan.

Level.

Three.

The current build breaks the game at level one. He's not just a munchkin, he's bad at being a munchkin.

[UglyPanda]

If he's such a bad player and anti-social, why did your friends still hang out with him?

[Keshay]

Did you let him know you were aware of what he was up to and that it was not clever, not original, and not playable in any meaningful fashion?

I'd have handled it a bit differently. I'd have let him do it, said "Ok you win! Congratulations! Now what?" And look expectantly at him. Ever after, anytime he suggested doing anything just say, "ok you succeed, now what? Go ahead and write on your character sheet that you have an enire multiverse made of diamonds, that's super! You're the bestest player in D&D history! And all it took was re-creating a few simple steps laid out in great detail online! You're so clever! You're so novel! I'm honored to be in the presence of such a austere individual. Boy this sure is fun! I'm having fun watch you play a game you can't fail! You know what else you can do that's fun and you can't fail at? Masturbation. Why don't you go home and do that and leave us out of it?"

[Korivan]

It wasn't a direct criticism against you, it was a response to your question about allowing Pun-Pun in general.

oh, sorry, ok.

And Ugly Panda, we don't. For different reasons involving things not reletive to this discussion. But, we all felt sorry for him.

[Solaris]

You know what else you can do that's fun and you can't fail at? Masturbation. Why don't you go home and do that and leave us out of it?"

I disagree. It is entirely possible to fail.

[Korivan]

Did you let him know you were aware of what he was up to and that it was not clever, not original, and not playable in any meaningful fashion?

I'd have handled it a bit differently. I'd have let him do it, said "Ok you win! Congratulations! Now what?" And look expectantly at him. Ever after, anytime he suggested doing anything just say, "ok you succeed, now what? Go ahead and write on your character sheet that you have an enire multiverse made of diamonds, that's super! You're the bestest player in D&D history! And all it took was re-creating a few simple steps laid out in great detail online! You're so clever! You're so novel! I'm honored to be in the presence of such a austere individual. Boy this sure is fun! I'm having fun watch you play a game you can't fail! You know what else you can do that's fun and you can't fail at? Masturbation. Why don't you go home and do that and leave us out of it?"


My aproach was a little different. Like yours though.

[tyckspoon]

Level.

Three.

The current build breaks the game at level one. He's not just a munchkin, he's bad at being a munchkin.

Presumably he was at least aware enough to realize that being a level 1 Kobold Paladin with a rigged Know: Religion skill whose first ever in-game action is to say "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu" would be.. suspicious, at best? Most of the other Pun Pun ascension routes look like pretty normal (if cheesy, in the case of Divine Minions) characters until they go off.

[Korivan]

Presumably he was at least aware enough to realize that being a level 1 Kobold Paladin with a rigged Know: Religion skill whose first ever in-game action is to say "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu" would be.. suspicious, at best? Most of the other Pun Pun ascension routes look like pretty normal (if cheesy, in the case of Divine Minions) characters until they go off.

Ya know, i've seen the build for Pun-Pun, but have no idea where divine minion comes from.

[valadil]

Can you post his name/picture so I can add it to my "do not game with" list?

[Paulus]

and another one bites the dust... Some people just don't understand the whole "Social game" thing. Sadly I wouldn't have done such things to him myself. ..Well actually, I wouldn't have allowed him in my game if he wasn't a friend anyway, why spend time with people you don't like? But anyway, if he was a friend I would have brought him aside and explained to him how D&D works. There is no I in team, but there is an I in meat pie, which is backwards way of saying team, only without the pie and well something like that- in any case, we are all here to have fun, and your way of playing is ignoring that and if I may add, self destructive to your own means of fun. Why don't you try playing our way a little while, see if you don't like it more? Or sit in and watch a bit, see how we usually play, then decide if you are up for that style of play.

Then when he plays again he should know what to expect and certain behave differently. ..Wait sorry, the rainbows and sunshine were in my eyes again. Optimism for the opti-mizer. In any case... he's already proven numerous times, he has no idea how to "play", sure he can make a character, sure he can hit stuff... sure he knows the rules, but he can't "Play". So.
If he EVER approaches you again, EVER. And he had better be sorry off his socks if he does and begs BEGS to play again. You tell him what I said, you tell him - if you feel so inclined- to sit in a few sessions, see how it is played. She how everybody else plays and HAS been playing. And if he can't match up to that or even meet it, then your group probably isn't the group for him, and he should look for another.

But. In ALL. honesty. Seriously. You give only ONE more chance, at the MOST. only ONE. and make it clear it is his LAST chance. And if he fails you this time, unrelentingly. ...Move on. Life is too short to stress and worry about people who you try to help but refuse it. That is all I can really offer, just out of compassion for being human. But hey, that's me. And I would have made it clear session one problem ago.

And no that ain't a I'm better than you remark, it's just how I roll. Them dice. yeaaaahhh. Oh well, good luck okay? HAVE FUN!

[Frosty]

How old is he? Is it possible has has mental deficiencies?

[tcrudisi]

Has anyone ever had a player build a Pun-Pun?, and if so, did you even allow it?

Not quite. I did meet up with a new group on meetup. Since none of us knew each other (except myself and my fiancé), the DM said, "anything that's legal, go for it" for character creation. I found out one of the players was creating a gestalt character. I brought this up to the DM, so he told all of us to do it. Then we get to the first session. I'm looking at one of the characters awfully suspiciously, but I didn't say anything.

Then the second session. It's just ... the way he's building the character ... my "cheese" senses were tingling. So I inquired, "Have you ever heard of a character called Pun-Pun?" His response was, "Yeah, that's what I'm building. One of my friends showed it to me online." This guy was also a new player. Building Pun-Pun.

My fiancé left after that game and never came back. Although I did tell the DM to look up Pun-Pun because he was going to have to deal with it very soon.

That also happened to be my last 3.5 game. I can understand powerful builds ... but Pun-Pun? Screw that. This was over a year ago and I still have that bad taste in my mouth. I refuse to play 3.5 now. I'm not trying to say that a specific other system is better -- after that experience, I say that ALL systems are better. Heck, at least in Mage: the Ascension you are supposed to have world-shattering powers. In D&D, that's not supposed to happen until level 21.

See, now I'm ranting. Screw Pun-Pun and people that try to play them. They ruin a good game.

*edit*
There is no I in team I don't know if it's true or not, but I heard that once an assistant coach said that same quote to Michael Jordan and he replied, "No, but there is a me."

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I don't see why you've got cause to rant. It's unreasonable to blame a rabid dog for biting you if you let it back in the house after it has already attacked you and your family. People like that do not often change. Lesson learned.

[Delwugor]

I had the exact opposite situation happen to me. Joined up with a group that claimed play to be low powered and a nice mix of 50/50 rp and combat.

So I show up with a combat weak Cleric and rely on role-playing to make him effective.
After first session (6 hours of pure dungeon crawl combat) was told by the leader of the group (not the DM) that my character was way too weak to really play and that I'd just waste my healing on myself. :smallconfused:
I change my character somewhat so that his combat stats are better but still nothing noteworthy. We spent 15 minutes in town and another 5 hours in the dungeon crawl. I start noticing that the leader's warforged rogue and his wife's shaman where awesome in combat and the paladin stunk just like my character. Then my character shows late to a combat going on between the party and a small black dragon and he end up goes down. End of session and then I'm told I am a bad roleplayer because my character speaks draconic and I didn't try to talk with the dragon. :smallconfused:
The straw was that the leader wanted everyone to post their character's on his board for review... I ended up taking a really close look at his and his wife's - no wonder the paladin and my character looked like smucks.
Then he proceeds to berate me on his forums about bad character and bad playing.

I left a really polite good bye response.

[Myrmex]

Level.

Three.

The current build breaks the game at level one. He's not just a munchkin, he's bad at being a munchkin.

Level 1 requires the DM to say "Ok, Pazuzu shows up and grants you two wishes."


How old is he? Is it possible has has mental deficiencies?

I thought most of us who played this hobby have mental deficiencies. Maybe I'm just projecting.

[Pigkappa]

sorry for being such a n00b, but... what is a pun-pun exactly? :smallfrown:

[chiasaur11]

Level 1 requires the DM to say "Ok, Pazuzu shows up and grants you two wishes."




One wish. And, given we're talking a player who assumes that if it's raw it's illegal for the DM to ban it, I wouldn't expect the thought "Oh. The DM might say no" to cross his mind.

[tcrudisi]

sorry for being such a n00b, but... what is a pun-pun exactly? :smallfrown:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Pun-pun

You'll notice the first link is titled, "The most powerful character. EVER." That would be the one.

[Keshay]

sorry for being such a n00b, but... what is a pun-pun exactly? :smallfrown:

The first reuslt from Google:http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character_EVER

Not so hard to find out.

edit: shoot, beaten to it Though I do like that lmgtfy site, I'll use that from now on.

[Myrmex]

One wish.

Two wishes.
The first takes you from Lawful Good to True Neutral, the second takes you from True Neutral to Chaotic Evil. At which point Pazuzu stops granting you wishes.


And, given we're talking a player who assumes that if it's raw it's illegal for the DM to ban it, I wouldn't expect the thought "Oh. The DM might say no" to cross his mind.

I suspect, though, that he has a modicum of shrewdness, given that he didn't do it.

"Hey DM, can I have two free wishes?"
"No."
"But it says in the rules...."
"Yah, sorry, Pazuzu is busy corrupting level 12 paladins. Even Demon Princes can't be in two places at once. Or, in this case, an aleph number of places. But I'll add you to the queue."

[Glimbur]

sorry for being such a n00b, but... what is a pun-pun exactly? :smallfrown:

The core of it is that there's a monster with a poorly worded ability. This ability lets it grant any ability in the game to another monster from a certain subset (reptiles iirc). So you use all sorts of broken things to get a Wish spell at level 1, which you trade in to three wishes via Candle of Invocation. Turn yourself into one of these monsters, give the ability to your familiar. Then you and your buddy can do anything. There are further refinements that let you get your stats infinite, not just as high as you want, but that's not the point.

[Kaldrin]

I don't see why you've got cause to rant. It's unreasonable to blame a rabid dog for biting you if you let it back in the house after it has already attacked you and your family. People like that do not often change. Lesson learned.

Providing a human being is an unthinking animal... I've found that a lot of these type of people just don't get it until someone sits them down and calmly explains to them exactly why what they're doing is wrong. If they're an ignorant swine they'll continue to act that way just to annoy you, but if they've got any self respect they take it to heart and learn from it.

[Gan The Grey]

I don't see why you've got cause to rant. It's unreasonable to blame a rabid dog for biting you if you let it back in the house after it has already attacked you and your family. People like that do not often change. Lesson learned.

There's always one that shoves it back in the victim's face. sigh

[chiasaur11]

Two wishes.
The first takes you from Lawful Good to True Neutral, the second takes you from True Neutral to Chaotic Evil. At which point Pazuzu stops granting you wishes.




I could have sworn there were more wishes. On from LG to NG, then CG, then CN, then one to CE, then you die horribly.

And the one wish thing was because you only need one wish to get things started. After that, Pazuzu is extranious for the purposes of your plans.

[Kelpstrand]

Indeed, all that is required is a single Wish to grant you:

Either:
A Ring of Three Wishes.
or:
A Candle of Invocation.

At which point you have infinite Wishes thanks to the ability to use wishes to wish for items that grant more wishes.

But even if you were using Pazuzu, he'd still give you lots of wishes:

1) He gives Paladins one free wish without corruption, to encourage them to seek him.
2) Next wish shifts to Neutral Good.
3) Next Wish to Chaotic Good.
4) Next Wish to Chaotic Neutral.
5) Next Wish to Chaotic Evil.
6) He grants you no more wishes.

So you can get 5 wishes off him no problem.

[Douglas]

1) He gives Paladins one free wish without corruption, to encourage them to seek him.
I don't have the text to check right now, but I think the paladin = no corruption thing is that he won't corrupt (i.e. intentionally misinterpret) your Wish, not that your alignment won't change. He doesn't necessarily seek loopholes in everyone else's wishes automatically, but he takes special care to give paladins exactly what they want in full the first time.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Kaldrin: The OP voiced that the animal in question was talked to. Heck, said 'animal' was punted out of the group in 2nd ed. The monkey did not learn.

Gan The Grey: :smallbiggrin: When the 'victim' set himself up, it's hard to not laugh. Given the results (the OP unharmed and wiser for the experience), it's a guilt free source of amusement. :smalltongue:

[Gan The Grey]

You cannot use a wish spell for more wishes.

1st. Wish can only duplicate AT BEST a wizard spell of 8th level or lower. At worst it can only duplicate a 5th level spell or lower.

2nd. Wish can be used to make an mundane item of up to 25,000 GP in value. Directly below that stipulation, it says you can also make a magic item. There is no reason why there would be a GP limit on mundane items but not magic items (though I've noticed people on this forum tend to forgo logic sometimes to afford the benefits of RAW). A scroll of Wish is 28,825 GP. This is the cheapest way to get a Wish from a magic item. Wish cannot make this item.

Wishing for more wishing is a flagrant abuse of power that no intelligent DM should allow. Sure, you can Wish for already existing 'Scrolls of Three Wishes' or 'Rings of Three Wishes' or 'Luck Blades', but again, flagrant abuse of power, and a sane DM would rule that either a)item doesn't exist, b)item's owner made their saving throw vs. the Wish, c)item HAD those Wishes, but have previously been spent, d) rule that since there is no wizard spell that can both locate a specific unseen item from anywhere in the material plane (or farther) and also teleport it to the summoner, then the Wish fails, or e)punish greed by summoning a folded piece of paper with the words 'THREE WISHES' written on it.


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

My two cents.


Kaldrin: The OP voiced that the animal in question was talked to. Heck, said 'animal' was punted out of the group in 2nd ed. The monkey did not learn.

Gan The Grey: :smallbiggrin: When the 'victim' set himself up, it's hard to not laugh. Given the results (the OP unharmed and wiser for the experience), it's a guilt free source of amusement. :smalltongue:

Yeah, cuz people should always be laughed at for being the bigger person and giving someone another chance. /sarcasmoff

[Foryn Gilnith]

The OP "couldnt be happier", as the title says. Lighten up and stop judging Hadrian.



Wishing for more wishing is a flagrant abuse of power that no intelligent DM should allow.

Sort of like Pun-Pun and Pazuzu?

[Douglas]

There is no reason why there would be a GP limit on mundane items but not magic items
Yes, there is. It's the fact that creating magic items with a Wish costs additional XP. Unlimited cost magic item creation by Wish is broken if and only if you have a way to negate the additional XP cost.

Not that it matters, however, as the usual plan for this kind of thing is to Wish for a Candle of Invocation, which is well under 25,000 gp, and use it to Gate in an Efreeti, which is then commanded to grant 3 Wishes. Use one to get another CoI and you have two left over plus the ability to repeat the exercise.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, that gets old quick...

Overall, when people get really angry about minor things, that seems to be a good sign that they are wrong and/or have something to hide.

Right. I mean, I understand getting frustrated if rules are being changed willy nilly, but pun-pun? seriously? I optimize at times, sure, but trying to actually play such a character wouldn't be very productive. Or fun, unless it were a single person game.

There are plenty of ways to prevent pun pun that work out pretty decently by the rules, too. The arbitrary lightening from any god for trying to use utterly ridiculous amounts of their minions, for example.

[Gan The Grey]

Yes, there is. It's the fact that creating magic items with a Wish costs additional XP. Unlimited cost magic item creation by Wish is broken if and only if you have a way to negate the additional XP cost.

Not that it matters, however, as the usual plan for this kind of thing is to Wish for a Candle of Invocation, which is well under 25,000 gp, and use it to Gate in an Efreeti, which is then commanded to grant 3 Wishes. Use one to get another CoI and you have two left over plus the ability to repeat the exercise.

I don't disagree with the second part. You aren't getting the extra Wishes with Wish persae, but through a series of other spells and actions, however broken those spells and actions themselves may be.

I just read that part on XP and Wish. So, if you don't have any way to negate the XP cost (souls, pain, ect.) what level to you have to be in order to Wish for a Ring of Three Wishes (since you can't spend enough experience to lower yourself one level)?



Sort of like Pun-Pun and Pazuzu?

Yeah, pretty much.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Yeah, cuz people should always be laughed at for being the bigger person and giving someone another chance. /sarcasmoff

:smallbiggrin: I'm all for second chances, but they have to be earned. Besides, unless the OP threw the problem child out on his ear over the first offense... the 'animal' had plenty of chances to fly right. People who disregard the enjoyment of the whole for the sake of satisfying the self have no place playing with a group. They are poison that eats away at the pleasure level of the activity for everyone around them.

[Kylarra]

Right. I mean, I understand getting frustrated if rules are being changed willy nilly, but pun-pun? seriously? I optimize at times, sure, but trying to actually play such a character wouldn't be very productive. Or fun, unless it were a single person game.

There are plenty of ways to prevent pun pun that work out pretty decently by the rules, too. The arbitrary lightening from any god for trying to use utterly ridiculous amounts of their minions, for example.
"This isn't Faerun, there are no Sarrukh".

[Jayabalard]

"This isn't Faerun, there are no Sarrukh".You summon a Sarrukh; it is a rodent-like creature with fur made out of fire.

[Tyndmyr]

"This isn't Faerun, there are no Sarrukh".

Also good.

Of course, a sarrukh that for whatever reason, can no longer use this ability would also work. By raw, the sarrukh could actually have used that ability to strip himself of it. Strictly legal.

[Douglas]

I just read that part on XP and Wish. So, if you don't have any way to negate the XP cost (souls, pain, ect.) what level to you have to be in order to Wish for a Ring of Three Wishes (since you can't spend enough experience to lower yourself one level)?
Creating a standard (i.e. minimum XP cost, cannot be used to create magic items at all, not even a scroll of Ray of Frost) Ring of Three Wishes by casting Wish would cost 36836 XP. This would theoretically be possible at level 18 if you somehow gained almost an entire level's worth of XP above and beyond what you needed to level up and decided to immediately spend it on the Wish instead of gaining a level. Without such shenanigans as forgoing a levelup or any way to reduce or negate the XP cost, such a Wish would not be possible until level 37, and even then you'd have to be extremely close to leveling up.

So, you could cast Wish to get a Ring of Three Wishes, thereby Wishing for more Wishes, if you are level 37 or higher. Net effect 3 Wishes at caster level 20. Or you could just cast Wish directly yourself 7 times, getting more than twice as many Wishes each at almost twice the caster level and for less XP cost. Yeah, sure, go right ahead and Wish for more Wishes. I won't stop you.:smallamused:

Now if you are using some form of XP cost negation, that's another matter entirely...

[Gan The Grey]

Creating a standard (i.e. minimum XP cost, cannot be used to create magic items at all, not even a scroll of Ray of Frost) Ring of Three Wishes by casting Wish would cost 36836 XP. This would theoretically be possible at level 18 if you somehow gained almost an entire level's worth of XP above and beyond what you needed to level up and decided to immediately spend it on the Wish instead of gaining a level. Without such shenanigans as forgoing a levelup or any way to reduce or negate the XP cost, such a Wish would not be possible until level 37, and even then you'd have to be extremely close to leveling up.

So, you could cast Wish to get a Ring of Three Wishes, thereby Wishing for more Wishes, if you are level 37 or higher. Net effect 3 Wishes at caster level 20. Or you could just cast Wish directly yourself 7 times, getting more than twice as many Wishes each at almost twice the caster level and for less XP cost. Yeah, sure, go right ahead and Wish for more Wishes. I won't stop you.:smallamused:

Now if you are using some form of XP cost negation, that's another matter entirely...

I like your maths. lol

Alright, if my party wants to gather enough souls and pain to negate all that experience in order to use one wish to get three...I will laugh heartily but I will give it to them.

[Tyndmyr]

Well played. The answer "Yes, but..." is always so much more satisfying, and potentially evil than a "no". =)

[Demons_eye]

You summon a Sarrukh; it is a rodent-like creature with fur made out of fire.

You misunderstand. We are not playing that settings so they don't exist. They maybe stated but they are not in the game.

[Ormagoden]

And he was so close to winning DnD!

HAHAHAHhahha!

[Sliver]

Providing a human being is an unthinking animal... I've found that a lot of these type of people just don't get it until someone sits them down and calmly explains to them exactly why what they're doing is wrong. If they're an ignorant swine they'll continue to act that way just to annoy you, but if they've got any self respect they take it to heart and learn from it.

Yeah.. That is how I wish it would work, but it seems that I will have more luck if I try to wish for more wishes..
I had a friend that was all into trying to control and force us into behaving like he thought we should behave, never had a sense of humor, acted like a jerk and... Bah.. The years wasted on this guy.. We tried to talk to him, tell him what he is doing wrong and why he is being disliked.. "Yeah, I get you.. I will try" was it all, no change.. Ever.. We just couldn't make him act more like.. A human..

[Kylarra]

You summon a Sarrukh; it is a rodent-like creature with fur made out of fire.
Also the fire is on fire.

[Glass Mouse]

Uh... I'm just reading about Pun-Pun, but don't these abilities take... helluva long time (unless you're cheesing it out, of course).

So long, in fact, that people might hear about it and gather a mob to stop this vile kobold from threatening civilized, humanoid lands?

A half-ways Pun-Pun against the entire world...? Yeah.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Uh... I'm just reading about Pun-Pun, but don't these abilities take... helluva long time (unless you're cheesing it out, of course).

So long, in fact, that people might hear about it and gather a mob to stop this vile kobold from threatening civilized, humanoid lands?

A half-ways Pun-Pun against the entire world...? Yeah.

Unless you hide somewhere.

Or does the process require being somewhere easily found? I don't dare look at Pun-Pun.

[Glass Mouse]

The process involves becoming a colossal creature.

You're gonna need a pretty big hiding place for that :smallbiggrin:

[Fluffles]

The process involves becoming a colossal creature.

You're gonna need a pretty big hiding place for that :smallbiggrin:

Stalk a party of high level adventurers until they kill a great Wyrm. They won't bother killing a lowly kobold because it would be a waste of their talents :smallbiggrin:

Let them take their loot, when they look at you quizzically say your looking for the remains of your parents who were killed by the dragon :smallbiggrin:

[Dr_Emperor]

The process involves becoming a colossal creature.

You're gonna need a pretty big hiding place for that :smallbiggrin:

then give yourself a persistent time stop type power, or genesis, or just don't go for ability scores in the beginning and go for straight out immunities to speed it up. Not that I'm advocating its use, just that its ascension model is probably inefficient, I think its creator even said that once.

I used to follow the attempts to build a character that tried to destroy pun-pun.

[Tyndmyr]

Uh... I'm just reading about Pun-Pun, but don't these abilities take... helluva long time (unless you're cheesing it out, of course).

So long, in fact, that people might hear about it and gather a mob to stop this vile kobold from threatening civilized, humanoid lands?

A half-ways Pun-Pun against the entire world...? Yeah.

Not really. One of the first set of wishes is traditionally to go to a safe area. Definitions of safe vary depending on setting, but once you have the ability, I believe it's only what, a four round cycle to get an ability? Even ignoring the blatant cheese that makes this instant, there's no per day limitation on this. Thus, you could have...inordinate power before anyone could reasonably hear about it.

Thing is, no sane DM is going to let it get that far. Ditto the infinite wish cycle.

[Kzickas]

You misunderstand. We are not playing that settings so they don't exist. They maybe stated but they are not in the game.

And you're missing his point that it would be even funnier for the setting to have a creature with the same name that is in no way similar to the Faerun creature. So they summon a Sarrukh, they get a Sarrukh, but one that doesn't help their cheesy scheme at all

[Glass Mouse]

Hehe, okay. Seems like the "sending out every NPC in the world after wannabe Pun-Pun character" will only work with a stupid and/or non-thoughtful player.

D&D is silly :smallsigh:

[Paulus]

Hehe, okay. Seems like the "sending out every NPC in the world after wannabe Pun-Pun character" will only work with a stupid and/or non-thoughtful player.

D&D is silly :smallsigh:

I got that impression after the whole "Wizards are better then everybody" thing.

[sofawall]

Uh... I'm just reading about Pun-Pun, but don't these abilities take... helluva long time (unless you're cheesing it out, of course).

So long, in fact, that people might hear about it and gather a mob to stop this vile kobold from threatening civilized, humanoid lands?

A half-ways Pun-Pun against the entire world...? Yeah.

I think it takes all of two rounds to become immune to damage, for instance.

[Glass Mouse]

I got that impression after the whole "Wizards are better then everybody" thing.

Touché :smalltongue:

[Tyndmyr]

Hehe, okay. Seems like the "sending out every NPC in the world after wannabe Pun-Pun character" will only work with a stupid and/or non-thoughtful player.

D&D is silly :smallsigh:

Feh, use a diety. Dieties are probably not thrilled about a little kobold taking the shortcut to ultimate power.

[Starbuck_II]

I don't disagree with the second part. You aren't getting the extra Wishes with Wish persae, but through a series of other spells and actions, however broken those spells and actions themselves may be.

I just read that part on XP and Wish. So, if you don't have any way to negate the XP cost (souls, pain, ect.) what level to you have to be in order to Wish for a Ring of Three Wishes (since you can't spend enough experience to lower yourself one level)?



Yeah, pretty much.
Pazuzu uses Wish for free. So does an Noble Genie. So does a Solar. So does a Balor.
So calling Pazuzu or gating the rest grants a free wish (no XP).
Spell-likes abilities are awesome and broken when they have XP costs.

[Kelpstrand]

I don't have the text to check right now, but I think the paladin = no corruption thing is that he won't corrupt (i.e. intentionally misinterpret) your Wish, not that your alignment won't change. He doesn't necessarily seek loopholes in everyone else's wishes automatically, but he takes special care to give paladins exactly what they want in full the first time.

No, it explicitly says that the first Wish he grants to Paladins, he does so without it changing their alignment.


You cannot use a wish spell for more wishes.

Yes you can. You can use the wish to create an item that casts Wish. As per "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."


2nd. Wish can be used to make an mundane item of up to 25,000 GP in value. Directly below that stipulation, it says you can also make a magic item. There is no reason why there would be a GP limit on mundane items but not magic items (though I've noticed people on this forum tend to forgo logic sometimes to afford the benefits of RAW). A scroll of Wish is 28,825 GP. This is the cheapest way to get a Wish from a magic item. Wish cannot make this item.

You may wish that there was a limit to the cost of the item that wish can create. But in fact, there is no limit. It is limited by XP cost, which is easily bypassable, via having an item that wishes, or having an SLA wish.

It is very clear that the magic item has no limit to the value.

In fact, if you wish to go back and look at the 3.0 Wish, you will see that it did have an explicit limit on the cost of the item to be created. It was 15,000gp. However, it was purposefully removed in 3.5.

Wish can make any item, including a Staff of Wishes, a Ring of Three Wishes, or a scroll of Wish.

There is a very good reason why there would be a limit on mundane but not on magical item cost. "It does not limit the cost." It's that easy. Follow the rules of the spell text.

[MickJay]

Unfortunately, the rules also make it clear that any attempt to abuse Wish may result in "partial fulfillment" and/or additional consequences. Asking for a +50 Longsword of Everything might get you, by RAW, an old, rusted fruitknife, or if the DM is particularly generous a, for example, +2 Longsword.

[Lamech]

No the rules make it very clear you will get your +50 longsword of everything. Now no wizard would ever have enough XP to cast that so its all good. ... Except its not. Rings of three wishes, Efreeti (actually they don't have an exact "wish" spell), Pit Fiend... they all ruin it. Personally I would just say that to get the item someone (or a few someones) must sacrifice the XP. Its not a component just how the wish spell makes the magic.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Player: I wish I had a +50 Longsword of Everything!
DM: If you say so. Your stomach feels a bit heavier and... you know, I think it'd be best if I didn't describe it. Just roll a new character, Mr. "I have a sword through most of my organs."

[Indon]

Rules don't exist in the game for a weapon with more than a +10 enhancement bonus.

I've never had a player actually try pun-pun, but I've definitely had a player like the guy the OP talks about. Maybe my player's grown up and gone on to plague other games the same way.

I think on the first round of the pun-pun combo, I would cause the kobold in question to immediately ascend to godhood. Then I would notify the kobold's player that he no longer needs to play the game and that he is welcome to immediately leave the game permanently.

I'll do that with the omniscifer upon immersing himself in water.

[chiasaur11]

Player: I wish I had a +50 Longsword of Everything!
DM: If you say so. Your stomach feels a bit heavier and... you know, I think it'd be best if I didn't describe it. Just roll a new character, Mr. "I have a sword through most of my organs."

Player: Oh well. At least my next character will have a nice +50 longsword. Corpse loot is the best loot!

[Paulus]

Player: I wish I had a +50 Longsword of Everything!
DM: If you say so. Your stomach feels a bit heavier and... you know, I think it'd be best if I didn't describe it. Just roll a new character, Mr. "I have a sword through most of my organs."

No This is where the Dm says,

"Granted. You have a +50 longsword of everything! ...for five seconds. It dissipates into smoke. Now "you had a +50 longsword of everything" and your wish is fulfilled. Your normal weapon is also gone, replaced by that great +50 longsword of everything. Which you had. Imagine that?"


Player: Oh well. At least my next character will have a nice +50 longsword. Corpse loot is the best loot!

yeah this is where Player two goes, oo! free +50 longsword of everything for me! and loots his companion's corpse.

[Starbuck_II]

Rules don't exist in the game for a weapon with more than a +10 enhancement bonus.



Epic rules say you can. But the XP cost is so high that no non-spell-like creature can create it pre-epic with Wish. Luckily Spell-like Wishes cost no XP.

[Androgeus]

Player: I wish I had a +50 Longsword of Everything!
DM: If you say so. Your stomach feels a bit heavier and... you know, I think it'd be best if I didn't describe it. Just roll a new character, Mr. "I have a sword through most of my organs."

It is also on fire.

[Indon]

Epic rules say you can. But the XP cost is so high that no non-spell-like creature can create it pre-epic with Wish. Luckily Spell-like Wishes cost no XP.

No, epic rules stop at +10, with +10 worth of additional abilities.

[tcrudisi]

I have not played 3.5 in over a year, but what stops a player from taking Archmage, giving himself Wish as a SLA, and then wishing for said +50 Longsword of Everything?

[Starbuck_II]

I have not played 3.5 in over a year, but what stops a player from taking Archmage, giving himself Wish as a SLA, and then wishing for said +50 Longsword of Everything?

Archmages can't bypass XP cost:

Spell-Like Ability
An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

[Tyndmyr]

I think on the first round of the pun-pun combo, I would cause the kobold in question to immediately ascend to godhood. Then I would notify the kobold's player that he no longer needs to play the game and that he is welcome to immediately leave the game permanently.

That works. Even if he's not banned from the game, the fact that his character achieved godhood definitely means it's time to roll a new character.

I mean, regardless of what happens, it's simply not going to work to have pun pun tooling around in a level 3 party. That's just not going to work out.

[Starbuck_II]

That works. Even if he's not banned from the game, the fact that his character achieved godhood definitely means it's time to roll a new character.

I mean, regardless of what happens, it's simply not going to work to have pun pun tooling around in a level 3 party. That's just not going to work out.

Yes, but his new character can worship his old character. I think that is awesome. He has already irrevocable changed the world.

[Tyndmyr]

Hey, that could be amusing enough. I've got no problem with Pun Pun as an in game diety that your players worship. =)

[xPANCAKEx]

Anyways, long story short (too late), after about a hour long argument, some name calling, he left, vowing never to play with us again, saying I was biased, crappy DM, out to get him, too restrictive...blah blah blah. Fine, whatever, I feel I'm justified.

DM out to get a player trying to run pun-pun... seems fair to me

to be fair, i wouldn't have let him get 2 minutes into the argument. Its a simple matter of saying "no resembling pun-pun in my game. Like it or lump it." and if he picks the latter show him the door

but your method got the same end result so its still a win

[KillianHawkeye]

No, epic rules stop at +10, with +10 worth of additional abilities.

False. Epic rules explicitly have no limit on anything. You can make a Level 300 Monk with a +75/+75 quarterstaff if you want to.


There is no limit to an epic magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, to the market price modifier of an epic magic weapon special ability, or to the total of an epic magic weapon’s enhancement bonus and market price modifier.

[Diamondeye]

You could always kill pun-pun with a peasent railgun

Or you could stand up and punch the player in the face.

[taltamir]

you begin the pun pun transformation, as you do the current one and only pun pun in the multiverse appears before you... roll initiative, he has a +5 billion.
What is your AC? he is hitting you with a knife at +2 billion and 1d4 + 2 billion damage.

OP, you didn't lose a player to a pun pun, you had an antisocial psycho who actually had the audacity to try and make one. If you let him stay he'd probably try to rape the other PC's "in character" (yes, that really happens... I heard multiple accounts of it actually)

[Zergrusheddie]

That guy seems like an utter jerk.

Pun-Pun is legal Rules as Written but even the biggest Rules as Written advocates would shoot down Pun-Pun in an actual game. Like most of the other Campaign Smashers, Pun-Pun was purely meant as a "look at what is possible" exercise and the creator even said that it should never be played.

A DM should be lenient with how players want to make their characters but Pun-Pun is always out of the question.

[SurlySeraph]

I used to follow the attempts to build a character that tried to destroy pun-pun.

I read a few of those. "The Terminator," which used some broken mechanism to cast Time Regression over and over so it could go back in time and kill Pun-Pun before he ascended, was my favorite.

[ShadowFighter15]

This thread's actually inspired me to try and slip Pun-Pun into an obscure part of Eberron's ancient history (gonna be DMing an Eberron game at some point and I was bored while reading this).

After the great war between Siberys, Khyber and Eberron, when the world was formed and life on the world began; there was a kobold who called himself Pun-Pun. Legend says that this young kobold, who was born weaker and frailer than his brethren, sought to become like the great Progenitor Dragons and take revenge on those who had bullied him for his weakness.

After many years of searching, he found what he sought and learned how to make himself as a god. But when he did, he received wisdom far beyond the ken of mortals and beheld the very rules of the universe as though they were the rules for a mere board game. He also learned that it was foolish of him to seek this power for petty reasons such as revenge and that another with such power could be far too dangerous to the world he had now left behind. He now acts as a sentinel, guarding the strange realm of existence he now inhabits and prevents any from reaching his level of power.

He is not a god, but he is not a mortal either. He alone lies somewhere in-between these extremes and he intends to be the only such being for the rest of eternity; directly confronting any who seek his power and stripping them of their path to supremacy. He is not benevolent, nor malevolent; merely seeking to balance the world and prevent a misuse of the power he attained. The most common route to this power, the same one he used, was cut off when he transformed the entire Sarrukh race from the powerful, reptilian creatures they started as, into strange, unintelligent creatures that appear as a cross between a beaver and a duck, with the males producing a powerful venom delivered via a claw on their hind paws that can leave even the stoutest of dwarves in severe agony for days, wishing they were dead.


tl;dr: Pun-Pun was an early kobold after Siberys, Khyber and Eberron beat the hell out of each other who wanted to be as powerful as them, then realised the best thing he could do with the power is stop anyone else from doing the same thing. The Sarrukh route was what he used, but he closed that off by altering reality so that Sarrukhs never existed as we know them, but as one of the strangest creatures in our world; the platypus.

[taltamir]

into strange, unintelligent creatures that appear as a cross between a beaver and a duck, with the males producing a powerful venom delivered via a claw on their hind paws that can leave even the stoutest of dwarves in severe agony for days, wishing they were dead.
EPIC! my eyes lit up as I was reading this, this is awesome...

[Akal Saris]

I've never had a player actually try pun-pun, but I've definitely had a player like the guy the OP talks about. Maybe my player's grown up and gone on to plague other games the same way.

Perhaps it's the exact same player, traveling from game to game throughout the world, endlessly seeking but never finding the one perfect DM who will let him play Pun-Pun...or even invite him to a second session?

[ShadowFighter15]

EPIC! my eyes lit up as I was reading this, this is awesome...

My only worry is that creative players will try and harvest the venom. Oh well; I'll probably think of something. I mainly did it as an excuse to drop a platypus on anyone trying to summon a Sarrukh. Also, I imagine Pun-Pun as looking like an ordinary kobold, but wearing spectacles and a long coat made entirely out of dice; everything from d4s to d100s in god-knows how many colours.

[Zeta Kai]

But, we all felt sorry for him.

Don't. He's not just a bad player, but an awful human being. Do not suffer him or his ilk. Pity will open the gates & let the barbarians inside.

[chaos_redefined]

I've seen two instances of the dm having a pc raped by an npc. One of them went into detail. The other one said that the pc will respond by wanting a sex change. The player tried to make some modifications, and the dm said "no, you want a sex change with these conditions" The player talked to the dm out of game, and the dm said something to the effect of "no, it was merely a suggestion. do what you want, i just thought that would be a valid reaction"

[taltamir]

My only worry is that creative players will try and harvest the venom. Oh well; I'll probably think of something. I mainly did it as an excuse to drop a platypus on anyone trying to summon a Sarrukh. Also, I imagine Pun-Pun as looking like an ordinary kobold, but wearing spectacles and a long coat made entirely out of dice; everything from d4s to d100s in god-knows how many colours.

eh, poison and venom is a joke in DnD... IRL a platypus sting can kill a human... in DnD any poison that doesn't cost the equivalent of millions of dollars CAN NOT kill anyone.

[ShadowFighter15]

eh, poison and venom is a joke in DnD... IRL a platypus sting can kill a human... in DnD any poison that doesn't cost the equivalent of millions of dollars CAN NOT kill anyone.

Actually; real-life platypus venom can't kill a human (unless they die from shock or something else that the unbearable agony causes), or hasn't so far at least. And I'm not planning on the 'sarrukh' venom to be the same as its RL equivalent. Basically, Pun-Pun was feeling a little vindictive so gave them a venom that ignores any sort of resistance or immunity and has a save DC somewhere in the hundreds. The only way to be safe from it is to just not have a circulatory system in the first place. That's why I'm hoping no-one gets creative enough to start harvesting the stuff.

EDIT: Anyway; enough about strange creatures, I just put all of that together as a joke on anyone trying to make Pun-Pun or another such over-powered character.

[Zeta Kai]

There once was a kobold named Pun-Pun,
Who thought that godhood would be fun-fun,
So he found a Sarrukh,
Whose powers he took,
And he told his DM, "I won-won!"
:biggrin:

[Dervag]

This may be a bit inane, but:

As I see it, Pun-Pun is a bit like the Fool's Mate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fool's_mate) in chess. The Fool's Mate lets one chess player win the game in two moves... but only if the other player screws up by the numbers.
_______

I have the image of a kobold paladin saying "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu." Pazuzu appears and says "Ah, yes, a kobold. I admire your race's cleverly researched ongoing plot to obtain ultimate universal power. But do you really think I'm going to play along?"

[kills kobold]

[Radiun]

Question: Why isn't this +50 longsword intelligent and of opposed alignment with the special purpose of exterminating gophers? (What? Deities can get very mad and irrational when rodents destroy their golf course)

[Korivan]

Don't. He's not just a bad player, but an awful human being. Do not suffer him or his ilk. Pity will open the gates & let the barbarians inside.

You, and several others that have stated this view are right. 100% right. The problem is I'm too patient with people sometimes. Still, its hard to just drop someone you've been best friends with for over 10 years.

[taltamir]

You, and several others that have stated this view are right. 100% right. The problem is I'm too patient with people sometimes. Still, its hard to just drop someone you've been best friends with for over 10 years.

it is imperative to understand that just because you know someone for certain amount of years that does not make you friends. Friends treat each other a certain way. Some people you know for a very long time, and they are familiar, but they are not friends, they are just well known *******s.

[Starbuck_II]

I have the image of a kobold paladin saying "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu." Pazuzu appears and says "Ah, yes, a kobold. I admire your race's cleverly researched ongoing plot to obtain ultimate universal power. But do you really think I'm going to play along?"

[kills kobold]

Because Pazuzu is Metagaming. That isn't his MO. He grants ewishes to corrupt. He isn't a demon who wants to kill. He is a Devil corrupting is his gig.

[mackejn]

I see two easy solutions.
One: Bahamut eats him whole before he can make the wishes and proceeds to give a long speech about protecting the world from a great evil that was being created.

Two: "Suddenly, everything goes dark. You are eaten by a gruu. Roll a new character."

[Tiki Snakes]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Pun-pun

You'll notice the first link is titled, "The most powerful character. EVER." That would be the one.

First link is different for me?
Yeeeah. (http://www.punpunthailand.org/)

[Hadrian_Emrys]

it is imperative to understand that just because you know someone for certain amount of years that does not make you friends. Friends treat each other a certain way. Some people you know for a very long time, and they are familiar, but they are not friends, they are just well known *******s.

Quoted for its absurdly high trufax factor.

[Keshay]

First link is different for me?
Yeeeah. (http://www.punpunthailand.org/)

That's because you spelled it wrong, you forgot the hyphen.

Besides, even the simplest of contex clues would lead a person to conclude that the link description with the keywords "Wizards" "Character" and "Kobold" was the one more clerarly related to D&D discussion.

[Demonix]

No the rules make it very clear you will get your +50 longsword of everything. Now no wizard would ever have enough XP to cast that so its all good. ... Except its not. Rings of three wishes, Efreeti (actually they don't have an exact "wish" spell), Pit Fiend... they all ruin it. Personally I would just say that to get the item someone (or a few someones) must sacrifice the XP. Its not a component just how the wish spell makes the magic.


I'll do you one better:

DM: "Congratulations! You now have a +50 longsword of everything!"

Munchkin: "AWESOME! I go find the biggest, baddest dragon and whack him with it!"

DM: "You hit! roll damage!"

Munchkin: "300 hit points!"

DM: "The dragon takes 300 hit points of damage! you take 300 hit points of damage! Everyone in the party takes 300 hit points of damage! Joe farmer, 3000 miles away takes 300 points of damage! Zeus takes 300 points of damage, and boy is he pissed off..."

Congrats Mr. Munchkin. You just connected everything that exists into a singularity. Have fun with that.

[lesser_minion]

IIRC, the Dragon Magazine rules for Pazuzu's Temptation ability were as follows:

A creature may call on P's aid by repeating his name three times Pazuzu is free to scry, detect thoughts etc. on a potential supplicant without recourse to any saving throw, defence or immunity whatsoever. Regardless of outcome, calling upon Pazuzu shifts alignment. This applies to Paladins just as much as anyone else. Chaotic Evil creatures, and creatures who ask for too much, will not receive any aid. Pazuzu does not grant wishes. He provides aid, in the manner most convenient to him. Generally, he likes supplicants to be fairly strong, so he won't wish for everything they need (and would decline requests for such aid).


I'm pretty certain that there is no way that the RAW permit Pun-Pun ascension using Pazuzu.

As for wishing for magic items - an item which duplicates a spell with an XP cost carries that XP cost as an additional cost. If the spell has varying effects depending on the amount of XP paid, only those effects that were paid for are possible.

Basically, you can't pull a +50 Longsword of Everything out of a Ring of Three Wishes, unless the creator of the ring made a Ring of Three Wishes costing several bajillion extra XP.

Because of pretty bad wording in the DMG, you can pull such items out of efreeti, pit fiend or similar. The rule really should have been "if the DM isn't tracking XP for a creature or character, any XP costs it incurs for the use of its spells, spell-like abilities and the like are waived."

[Deth Muncher]

You could always just say that upon attaining UNLIMITED POWAH, he implodes and retcons himself out of existence.

[Kelpstrand]

As for wishing for magic items - an item which duplicates a spell with an XP cost carries that XP cost as an additional cost. If the spell has varying effects depending on the amount of XP paid, only those effects that were paid for are possible.

Do you have any rules citation for that? Or are you merely asserting something that should be true, regardless of the actual rules?

[lesser_minion]

Do you have any rules citation for that? Or are you merely asserting something that should be true, regardless of the actual rules?

The exact quote:


In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

Basically, the spell's component costs must be paid.

I'm not sure how "you can pay 5000xp to produce an effect costing 5000xp + 2 x the XP cost of the item created" is justifiable in the rules.

A spell is defined as a "specific, one time magical effect" (IIRC), which suggests that the XP cost you pay is that of the specific effect you want to be able to reproduce - the 'spell' you are duplicating - and paying for - is not "Wish", but "Wish as used in a specific instance".

[Douglas]

IIRC, the Dragon Magazine rules for Pazuzu's Temptation ability were as follows:

A creature may call on P's aid by repeating his name three times Pazuzu is free to scry, detect thoughts etc. on a potential supplicant without recourse to any saving throw, defence or immunity whatsoever. Regardless of outcome, calling upon Pazuzu shifts alignment. This applies to Paladins just as much as anyone else. Chaotic Evil creatures, and creatures who ask for too much, will not receive any aid. Pazuzu does not grant wishes. He provides aid, in the manner most convenient to him. Generally, he likes supplicants to be fairly strong, so he won't wish for everything they need (and would decline requests for such aid).


I'm pretty certain that there is no way that the RAW permit Pun-Pun ascension using Pazuzu.
Wrong source. Look him up in the Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss.

[lesser_minion]

Wrong source. Look him up in the Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss.

I knew it wasn't the current source before I posted - I just forgot to mention it.

Did they really 'simplify' the ability that horribly though?

[NoldorForce]

Pazuzu can use Detect Good/Law, Detect Thoughts (DC 22, so not guaranteed but likely), Tongues, and the Sense Motive skill over one minute to check the speaker's intent - particularly about possible entrapment.

He still doesn't provide aid to CE creatures, but he is given as extra likely to grant a paladin's request. (And as above, the first wish won't alter the paladin's alignment.) Finally, he generally gives aid "in the manner easiest for the demon prince to manifest, often in the form of his Wish spell-like ability".

Any more objections? :smallsmile: (The traditional request is for an appropriate Candle of Invocation - cheaper than the normal limit of Wish - and the traditional intent is to get an infinite pile of power and sit on it, ie not harming Pazuzu.)

[lesser_minion]

OK, so it hasn't actually changed.

The rule is not meant to be interpreted as "Pazuzu grants a wish", and I don't think there's any justification for him giving out Candles of Invocation. I think you've actually assumed a DM who will bend the rules in your favour here.

Remember that Pazuzu likes people to call on him again. Giving them whatever they want on a plate is well out of character, even if it doesn't cause him harm.

[Douglas]

Er, how can you possibly interpret "Pazuzu helps in the way easiest for him, and by the way his Wish ability is easy" (paraphrased) as anything but a strong implication that any request of him that can definitely be granted by a single Wish will be granted by a Wish?

Also, giving people exactly what they want strikes me as an excellent way to get them to call again. It worked so well the first time, after all...

[Doc Roc]

Look, _A_ pun-pun exists, since there are creatures since time immemorial in the default cosmology possessing the ability to wish for things. Sooner or later, one of them must have noticed the Sarrukh.


How _a_ pun-pun exists is irrelevant. There are at least five different viable paths to ascension, three of them don't use the sarrukh, and one of them technically isn't pun-pun at all. Just acts precisely like Pun-Pun.

[Flickerdart]

Now I really want to play a max-Know Religion Kobold Paladin. And then make the check to learn about Pazuzu, then...never call on him. One could even build a character around the concept: a Paladin that knows he can defeat all evil in the universe if he only made one little sin. Cue the angst!

[lesser_minion]

Er, how can you possibly interpret "Pazuzu helps in the way easiest for him, and by the way his Wish ability is easy" (paraphrased) as anything but a strong implication that any request of him that can definitely be granted by a single Wish will be granted by a Wish?

Also, giving people exactly what they want strikes me as an excellent way to get them to call again. It worked so well the first time, after all...

There is a difference between being a major (but not perfect) help and handing a person everything they could possibly want on a silver platter. That's why we (IRL) have things like planned obsolescence, activation-based DRM and the like.

The bottom line is that what Pazuzu does is under the purview of the DM, and Pazuzu knows what you're up to. This isn't RAI vs. RAW, this method cannot work unless you have a DM who is either unaware of what is happening or who doesn't mind if you ascend.

The other methods are blocked by the DM pointing out that the one seat for "creature possessed of ultimate theoretical power" is already occupied by an NPC, and explaining gently why there is only one seat.

[Arakune]

Now I really want to play a max-Know Religion Kobold Paladin. And then make the check to learn about Pazuzu, then...never call on him. One could even build a character around the concept: a Paladin that knows he can defeat all evil in the universe if he only made one little sin. Cue the angst!

He knows that after attaining ultimate cosmic power he isn't going to care to actualy defeat all evil in the universe.

[Paulus]

I think the angst would come more from fear of being humiliated from saying the word. I mean do we not have our dignity? what self respecting paladin runs about shouting "Pazuzu! Pazuzu!" and doesn't die from embarrassment and the derisive looks of his fellow adventurers on the the spot? Far before he could ever say it yet a third time I am certain.

[Starbuck_II]

He knows that after attaining ultimate cosmic power he isn't going to care to actualy defeat all evil in the universe.

He will the first time: remember no alignment change the 1st time.

[MCerberus]

Easy way to stop that kind of stuff,

DM: <Major God whose portfolio is being screwed with>, <Brief Description>, <Ominous Title>, <Murder related deed>, appears in a blinding flash. I'll need a grapple from <offending player>



Pazuzu is even easier.

DM: Pazuzu. Pazuzu eats you.

[Dervag]

Because Pazuzu is Metagaming. That isn't his MO. He grants ewishes to corrupt. He isn't a demon who wants to kill. He is a Devil corrupting is his gig.Yes, but his other gig, one that takes precedence even over corrupting people, is survival and not angering entities more powerful than he is.

What do you want to bet that if he gives power to a Pun-Pun, that Pun-Pun will go on to do something that will make trouble for Pazuzu?

[ondonaflash]

But. In ALL. honesty. Seriously. You give only ONE more chance, at the MOST. only ONE. and make it clear it is his LAST chance. And if he fails you this time, unrelentingly. ...Move on. Life is too short to stress and worry about people who you try to help but refuse it. That is all I can really offer, just out of compassion for being human. But hey, that's me. And I would have made it clear session one problem ago.

And no that ain't a I'm better than you remark, it's just how I roll. Them dice. yeaaaahhh. Oh well, good luck okay? HAVE FUN!

Rule #2: http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww251/ondonasand/NoSecondChances.jpg.

[taltamir]

But. In ALL. honesty. Seriously. You give only ONE more chance, at the MOST. only ONE. and make it clear it is his LAST chance. And if he fails you this time, unrelentingly. ...Move on. Life is too short to stress and worry about people who you try to help but refuse it. That is all I can really offer, just out of compassion for being human. But hey, that's me. And I would have made it clear session one problem ago.

Everyone deserves a 10th chance you know

No don't give him another chance... fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

[NoldorForce]

There is a difference between being a major (but not perfect) help and handing a person everything they could possibly want on a silver platter. That's why we (IRL) have things like planned obsolescence, activation-based DRM and the like.

The bottom line is that what Pazuzu does is under the purview of the DM, and Pazuzu knows what you're up to. This isn't RAI vs. RAW, this method cannot work unless you have a DM who is either unaware of what is happening or who doesn't mind if you ascend.

The other methods are blocked by the DM pointing out that the one seat for "creature possessed of ultimate theoretical power" is already occupied by an NPC, and explaining gently why there is only one seat.That's why one of the other principal requirements for Pun-Pun is a lenient DM. Not a robot DM, as such wouldn't be capable of making the call on Pazuzu, but a lenient one. Just another reason why this whole business is solidly in Theoretical Optimization, really.

You may be interested in the fact that this whole uncertainty, small as it may be, had prompted some folks to look for alternate ascension methods at low levels. Tleilaxu_Ghola, creator of the Terminators (attempts to take down Pun-Pun post-ascension), was suspicious of the whole deal. At one point he even started a project called Breaking the Core - pulling off some powerful stunts with nothing more than the Core Three books and some rules-wrangling.

[Kaldrin]

Player: I wish I had a +50 Longsword of Everything!
DM: If you say so. Your stomach feels a bit heavier and... you know, I think it'd be best if I didn't describe it. Just roll a new character, Mr. "I have a sword through most of my organs."

I wouldn't do that at all...

Player: I want a +50 longsword of Everything.
DM: Okay, you get a +50 longsword. But, since Everything is a curse in this world the sword only appears to carry every enchantment on it. No matter what anyone tells you, this weapon will have appeared to do much more damage than it actually did. In fact, when they try and hold you down to cast a wish to remove the curse (because wish is the only way to remove the curse), you'll fight them with every ounce of your strength and abilities. No one takes away your +50 sword! Just to be safe, I'll take your sheet when you start fighting them. I wouldn't want you to pull any punches.

[oxinabox]

assuming the existance of a overdiety then punpun can be legally stopped at anytime during he creation, perfectly legitimate under the rules, just likme punpun.
I've proably spend an hour hammering it out with another dm.
(me playing a epic lif creation using lvl 1 punpun, greating my self divine ranks using the special ability: "PunPun doesnot need overdiety permission to gain divine ranks, and gains divine ranks when ever he blinks)

Overdity can as an imediate free action destroy punpun.

My rule for pazuzu: (you can actually know about pazuzu in game with a large religion check, IIRC)
If you say pazuzu's name 3 times, the usual pazuzu bull happens.
if you say pazuzu's name twice; you are Dead dead dead dead dead (no save).
nothing can prevent this, not scarabs of protection, not even epic leval spells or powers. nothing can bring you back, not even...
Your soul, mine, body is completely gone utterly.

[tyckspoon]

assuming the existance of a overdiety then punpun can be legally stopped at anytime during he creation, perfectly legitimate under the rules, just likme punpun.
I've proably spend an hour hammering it out with another dm.
(me playing a epic lif creation using lvl 1 punpun, greating my self divine ranks using the special ability: "PunPun doesnot need overdiety permission to gain divine ranks, and gains divine ranks when ever he blinks)

Overdity can as an imediate free action destroy punpun.


You needed an hour to arrive at Rocks Fall?

[oxinabox]

You needed an hour to arrive at Rocks Fall?

no, we needed an hour to deternine at what point it becomes too late for rocks to fall, because punpun kills the overdiety.

(ie how much time punpun needs ammenesty form OD interferance)

It becomes hard when the overdiety can move time backwards even after death, so punpun needs to use life creation magic to create a crerature with the natural ability to prevent time being moved anywhere.