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Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 01:53 PM
So, I beat my skull against the wall every time I come back to reading the Draconomicon and notice Hidecarved Dragon as one of 2 Dragon PRCs that don't have epic requirements per-se and wonder to myself how I can get in. It doesn't seem that overly difficult initially, as alignment is easy, Dragon type comes out to being a Half-Dragon or Dragon Disciple 10 and the first major hurdle, the +12 Base Will save, is achieved by having 3 classes with good Will saves to 4th level (We'll say Monk/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, as it fits Hidecarved Dragon's flavor).

The last hurdle is always where I trip up, Natural Armor Bonus +20. It's mind-boggling to say the least. Going Half-Dragon or Dragon Disciple nets NA +4, Draconic Skin is another +1 and an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 brings me up to only +10 (the requirement doesn't say that I can't magic up my Natural Armor to meet the requirement). I don't want to sit around just taking Improved Natural Armor, as I certainly wouldn't make it pre-epic. This leaves me with seeking a low LA race with high natural armor that I can possibly pump up that last little bit of Natural Armor.

So, what says the Playground on achieving such? Is there a better route to achieving Base Will +12 and Natural Armor +20, with the Dragon type set on top?

Zeuy
2009-10-08, 02:21 PM
Dromite from XPH has +3 NA. Try slapping the half-dragon template onto that.

Douglas
2009-10-08, 02:24 PM
Take a level in Cancer Mage and arrange to contract Vile Rigidity. Congratulations, you get +1 natural armor per day for the rest of your life, and Cancer Mage negates the -1 dexterity per day that's supposed to come with it.

sofawall
2009-10-08, 02:32 PM
Dwarven Ancestor has high NA, but I don't know if it's playable.

Everyman
2009-10-08, 02:37 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Draconomicon came out 3.0, not 3.5. If that's true, maybe your DM would be willing reduce the requirement (if you are indeed going 3.5).

Claudius Maximus
2009-10-08, 02:40 PM
I think having the Dragonblood subtype is enough to qualify for the race thing.

And Draconomicon is definitely 3.5.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 02:44 PM
I think having the Dragonblood subtype is enough to qualify for the race thing.

Nah, Dragons get the free pass on anything Dragonblood, not the other way around. :smallannoyed:

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-08, 02:46 PM
I can't remember off the top of my head, but there's a Totemist soulmeld that grants a natural armor bonus (not the Breastplate).

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-08, 02:47 PM
Worm_____ Belt or somesuch. Occupied the waist-related chakra, began with a W. IIRC it was an enhancement bonus, so no dice, but it could maybe go higher than the Amulet.

EDIT: Wormtail Belt, +2 enhancement to NA, extra +1 for each essentia point.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 02:51 PM
Disciple of the Eye will give you +2 NA for taking 4 levels of it, as well as +4 will saves. You do need IUS and the dragonblood subtype though.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 02:58 PM
Worm_____ Belt or somesuch. Occupied the waist-related chakra, began with a W. IIRC it was an enhancement bonus, so no dice, but it could maybe go higher than the Amulet.

EDIT: Wormtail Belt, +2 enhancement to NA, extra +1 for each essentia point.

Oh Incarnum, what can't you solve?:smallbiggrin:

@sofa: Yeah, Dwarf Ancestor certainly fit the bill for Natural Armor but they don't have a listed LA. Not sure how I feel about being a possessed stone statue, either, or how you make one a dragon. @_@

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-08, 03:01 PM
Hah, I think I have it.
It is simpler then I thought.
you are going to need to use Dragonscale Husk ACF from Dragon Magic.

Lawful Good Desert Kobold, Dragonwrought (to be a +0 LA Dragon)
18 Con, +3 from Leveling
21 Con, +5 Con Modifier +2 NA with Dehlver-Nar

1. Cleric (Dragonscale Husk) +2 Will +7 NA - Dragonwrought
2. Marshal (Dragonscale Husk) +4 Will +7 NA
3. Knight (Dragonscale Husk) +6 Will +8 NA - Iron Will
4. Duskblade +8 Will
5. Binder +10 Will
6. Aristocrat (Dragonscale Husk) +12 Will - Improved Binding +8 NA
7. Crusader (Dragonscale Husk)
8. Crusader (Dragonscale Husk) + 9 NA

Was trying to fit it into 8 levels so you could get all of Hidecarved, it looks like it is going to take more room however.

9. Crusader (Dragonscale Husk) Open Feat
10. Crusader (Dragonscale Husk)
11. Crusader (Dragonscale Husk) +10 NA
12. Crusader (Dragonscale Husk) Open Feat +14 Will

At 12th level buy: Skin of the Defender +4, Amulet of Natural Armor +5

You now are a dragon, have 19 Natural Armor, +14 Will, and Iron Will

Hmm..
Still needs some work

jiriku
2009-10-08, 03:04 PM
Lizardfolk get +5 NA at LA+1 and 2 RHD
Poison Dusk Lizardfolk get +3 NA at LA+1 with no RHD
Crucians (Sandstorm) get +8 NA at LA+2
Dragonkin has +7 NA at LA+2 and 7 RHD
Kuo-Toa has +6 NA at LA+3 and 2 RHD
Half-Ogre has +4 NA and LA+2


So, for instance, a Crucian Monk 2/Sorcerer 4/DD 10 has +12 natural armor and a +13 Will save at ECL 18. With three feats and two magic items, you can reach +20 natural armor by that level.

Alternately, a half-dragon crucian monk 4/sorcer 4/XX 4 can achieve +12 NA and +12 Will by ECL 17, I think.

I'm sure this can be improved upon.

Edit: Wow, I just got ninja'd into next week.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-08, 03:04 PM
nitpick: Dragonscale Husk is an unnamed bonus. Also one that doesn't stack with any other "special ability" that grants any AC bonus. Weird.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 03:08 PM
I don't think dragonscale husk counts as natural armor

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-08, 03:10 PM
Yeah, I think thats to prevent it from being used as a monk dip.
Otherwise there would be some decent Paladin / Monk builds that could be made out of it.

Oops, looks like it isn't quite as neat as it would otherwise have been. Dehlver Nar is an enhancement bonus to NA, so it doesn't stack with the amulet. Let me take a look further to see how that problem can be overcome

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 03:13 PM
The Skin of the Defender is an enhancement bonus, too. :smallfrown:

ZeroNumerous
2009-10-08, 03:17 PM
Wait, what about being a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Whatever 9? You now qualify for epic feats so take Armor Skin 4 times, combine that with Dragonscale Husk(6+3=9), Skin of the Defender and a +3 NA amulet?

9+4+4+3=+20?

Now you just gotta get +14 Will.

EDIT: Skin of the Defender (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinoftheDefender). It's untyped.

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-08, 03:17 PM
Not surprised, SRD listed it as untyped.
Might have further problems. I have been reading through the entry in dragon magic again.

"This bonus doesn't stack with any feat, racial trait, or other special ability that would grant a bonus to armor class"

Does that mean it doesn't stack with the Kobold's Natural Armor?
Or with the improved Natural Armor feat?

I'm guessing that items don't count as "feat, racial trait, or other special ability" but not sure.

Hah, and apparently it is an Armor bonus. Despite being scales and what not.
Well looks like that option completely fell apart.

ZeroNumerous
2009-10-08, 03:24 PM
Feral Draconic Half-Dragon Kobold has +13 NA with an LA of +6. Combined with a Skin of the Defender and a +3 Nat Amulet gives us +20 at level 7.

EDIT: Insectile Feral Dragonwrought Kobold has +9 for a mere LA +3. Combined with +3 from Improved Nat Armor, +4 from the Skin and a +4 amulet and we have +20.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 03:27 PM
EDIT: Skin of the Defender (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinoftheDefender). It's untyped.

Got updated in the MIC. It's an enhancement bonus now.

ZeroNumerous
2009-10-08, 03:35 PM
Got updated in the MIC. It's an enhancement bonus now.

So we throw it out then. A Feral Insectile Dragonwrought Kobold is LA +3. +6(Feral), +2(Insectile), +1(Kobold) results in +9 on it's own. So we just need +11 from somewhere.

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-08, 03:38 PM
So my original far less elegant idea.
Dragonwrought Kobold
Polymorph any Object into a Dragon Turtle
+17 base NA

Need 1,200 for it to be cast by a 15th level wizard.
Should be able to buy that at 3rd level.
Make sure to start out with 12 intelligence
That way:
Same Kingdom, Same Class, Same or Lower Intelligence
Making it a Permanent Effect

You are now a Dragon Turtle: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTurtle.htm

Take classes to increase your will save. Find some way of boosting your NA by 3, and take Iron Will at some point.

Sample build:
Kobold
1.Knight - Dragonwrought Kobold
2.Aristocrat
3.Binder - Iron Will
4.Soulknife
5.Cleric
6.Marshal - Improved Natural Armor

Buy an Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Enter Hide Carved Dragon at level 7.
Take measures to insure Polymorph doesn't get dispelled.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 03:41 PM
I am pretty sure that:
1. amulet of nat armor does NOT stack with other sources of nat armor
2. prereqs can NOT be satisfied by items worn... they must be innate to your character.

That 20 looks like a typo to me, should probably have been 2.. or perhaps it is only for actual dragons and not half dragons?

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-08, 03:49 PM
I am pretty sure that:
1. amulet of nat armor does NOT stack with other sources of nat armor


Amulet of Natural Armor is an Enhancement bonus to the creatures Natural Armor. Which means it stacks.

The class is meant for dragons itself to get into. If bonuses cannot be used for entrance into prestige classes or for feat prerequisites they usually say so. See the Chameleon class for an example.

However entering a class or qualifying for a feat with a temporary or item based ability can be risky however, because you can only use the prestige class features when you meet their prerequisites. Same with feats. So most of the suggestions so far are vulnerable to a dispel magic or other methods.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 03:51 PM
Mmm
Feral Dragonwrought Desert Kobold +7 NA (Assume LA bought off)

Dragonfire Adept 2 +2 NA (9)/+3 Will
Monk 2 +3 Will (+6) (IUS)
Totemist 1 for the wormtail belt*
Disciple of the Eye 4 +2 NA (11) +4 will (10)

Take one more will boosting class for +2 will and work whatever NA miracles you need.

Iron will can be Otyugh Hole'd.

* I know crap all about incarnum :smallsigh:

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 03:57 PM
I am pretty sure that:
1. amulet of nat armor does NOT stack with other sources of nat armor
2. prereqs can NOT be satisfied by items worn... they must be innate to your character.

Amulet of Natural Armor provides an enhancement bonus to your existing natural armor, which if you don't normally have any is +0. It's just like applying Magic Vestment to armor, providing an enhancement bonus to the existing armor. As for the items being used to meet prereqs, that kinda puts a damper on making it possible to non-epically get in. I'm going to let it slide, as at this point it's probably going to involve shenanigans that wouldn't fly in a normal game to make this possible.


That 20 looks like a typo to me, should probably have been 2.. or perhaps it is only for actual dragons and not half dragons?

No, it's supposed to be 20, as most of those who get in are true dragons, who tend to have around 20ish HD at the time to have the the Natural Armor and Base Will Save. The prereqs says Any Dragon, not Any True Dragon, so anybody of the Dragon type fulfills that particular requirement. The description also talks about Half-Dragons whose non-dragon parent are particularly tough skinned as well.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 03:59 PM
then the fluff is either wrong or assumes a lot of shenanigans...
I think the real kicker though, it is EPIC assumed... so it must take into account epic spells granting NA innately (fortify seed)... which is broken as hell

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 04:06 PM
"Simplicity"

Feral Crucian ( Bought off to LA +1 +14 NA
Dragonfire Adept 4 Will +4 +2NA (16 NA)
Sorcerer 1 Will +2
Dragon Disciple 10 NA 19 Will 13

At some point take one of your improved natural armor feats.

Done. You're ecl 16 though

edit: bah, feral doesn't stack if your natural armor is already higher. Le sigh.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 04:07 PM
then the fluff is either wrong or assumes a lot of shenanigans...
I think the real kicker though, it is EPIC assumed... so it must take into account epic spells granting NA innately (fortify seed)... which is broken as hell

Note that that's why I'm asking whether it could be done pre-epic.

Also note that it's aimed at NPCs for the most part. Most of those getting in, by just the normal MM, are Adult Blue Dragons, Adult Bronze Dragons, Young Adult Gold Dragons and Young Adult Silver Dragons.

Now, could we focus on whether it's even possible as a PC to achieve it pre-epic (barring Polymorph, as I frankly don't want to play as a Dragon Turtle <_<;;), instead of saying that the class is hax because it's a normally epic PRC that could potentially be pre-epic?

Darrin
2009-10-08, 04:07 PM
So, what says the Playground on achieving such? Is there a better route to achieving Base Will +12 and Natural Armor +20, with the Dragon type set on top?

Person_Man a-pondered this same PrC back in January. You'll want to look at his Hidecarved thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101742).

Will saves can be stacked via 1-level dips, as someone else has already pointed out. My original suggestion:



Dragonwrought Kobold (for the +1 NA)
1) Duskblade
2) Knight
3) Samurai (OA version)
4) Hexblade
5) Incarnate
6) Warrior of Darkness (BoVD, for another +1 NA) Use Flaw or Otyuph Hole for Iron Will.


The first four all start with +1 BAB and +2 Will. The last two could be swapped for whatever... at the time I thought Incarnate was +1 BAB, but I was confusing it with Soulborn. Eidolon (from Ghostwalk) is another base class with +1 BAB and +2 Will, but being dead might make things... a bit more complicated.

I believe Person_Man concluded the Natural Armor requirement was best met via Polymorph Any Object, although I'm not sure if he ever decided what specific form was best... there are some oddball dragons out there (Planar, Steel/Greyhawk, etc.) that have very high Natural Armor even in their pre-Adult categories.

Akal Saris
2009-10-08, 04:08 PM
Edit: Heh, ninja'd by 1 post!

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 04:10 PM
"Simplicity"

Feral Crucian ( Bought off to LA +1 +14 NA
Dragonfire Adept 4 Will +4 +2NA (16 NA)
Sorcerer 1 Will +2
Dragon Disciple 10 NA 19 Will 13

At some point take one of your improved natural armor feats.

Done. You're ecl 16 though

Dragonfire Adept's Natural Armor doesn't stack. It says take the better natural armor. =/

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 04:12 PM
Dragonfire Adept's Natural Armor doesn't stack. It says take the better natural armor. =/
Neither do feral and crucian. rethink time.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 04:13 PM
Person_Man a-pondered this same PrC back in January. You'll want to look at his Hidecarved thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101742).

I believe Person_Man concluded the Natural Armor requirement was best met via Polymorph Any Object, although I'm not sure if he ever decided what specific form was best... there are some oddball dragons out there (Planar, Steel/Greyhawk, etc.) that have very high Natural Armor even in their pre-Adult categories.

It figures Person_Man brought it up originally. :smalltongue:

While I appreciate the Polymorph approach, I don't necessarily want to use it, given the way many people cringe when using it. If that's the only way, it's probably never going to come up for me as a player, which is a shame, given how cool the class is. :smallfrown:

EDIT: I suppose I should put out the caveat that we don't necessarily need to get in all 12 levels. The important thing is getting in at all pre-epic, not that I get in by ECL 8.

boomwolf
2009-10-08, 04:24 PM
Sorry to burst you bubble, but I'm pretty sure that requirement for PrC's cannot be met by magic items or enchantments unless the requirement specifically says you need a magic item that answers to a cretin criteria.

In sort-you need to answer the requirement even if you are stripped of all items you own, and every buff is dispelled.

Otherwise-what will happen if your entry to the class is party based on using an amulet, and then it is lost? you no longer qualify for the class.
Even if you remove it for the night, you no longer qualify.
What happen if you use a spell to qualify? what happens when the duration ends?

This creates some seriously messed up situations.

Kzickas
2009-10-08, 04:26 PM
Sorry to burst you bubble, but I'm pretty sure that requirement for PrC's cannot be met by magic items unless the requirement specifically says you need a magic item that answers to a cretin criteria.

In sort-you need to answer the requirement even if you are stripped of all items you own.

Otherwise-what will happen if your entry to the class is party based on using an amulet, and then it is lost? you no longer qualify for the class.
Even if you remove it for the night, you no longer qualify.

This creates some seriously messed up situations.

the rules specifically state that you can, and that if you no longer meet the requirements of a class you lose it's class features (but not HD and saves, i think)

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-08, 04:28 PM
Awww, but Dragon Turtles are so cute.
Let me try with some template stacking.

Crucian, Woodling Half Dragon

LA + 8
+19 Natural Armor

Then take 6 Good Will classes
Take Iron Will and Improved Natural Armor as feats.

You can qualify by level 14.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 04:34 PM
Death By Cheese

Feral +6NA (+1 LA)
Mineral Warrior +3 NA (+1 LA)
Half Minotaur +2 NA (+1LA) (+1 or +2 more NA depending on size increase)
Half Dragon +4 NA (+3LA)

That starts us off with +16/17 NA

Sorcerer1/Monk 1/3 other good will progression classes
Disciple of the eye 4 will give us +2 more NA for 18/19

Take improved nat armor or the dragon equivalent a few times.

ecl 15 with +6 LA XD In 2 levels you can buy that down to +5.

boomwolf
2009-10-08, 04:39 PM
the rules specifically state that you can, and that if you no longer meet the requirements of a class you lose it's class features (but not HD and saves, i think)

:smallconfused:

Is that so?
Mind pointing that rule to me, because looking at the DMG I could not find it.

Kzickas
2009-10-08, 04:45 PM
:smallconfused:

Is that so?
Mind pointing that rule to me, because looking at the DMG I could not find it.

It's in complete worrior, in the prc section

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-08, 04:45 PM
Then just use Wormtail Belt instead. Now you're using a class feature, and one without any time limit.
But there are, in fact, rules to allow this.

Alleine
2009-10-08, 04:53 PM
Figures, grafts get no love. Re-read grafts(the old ones, not the new ones with their crappy rules), I'm pretty sure you can get a sweet NA bonus from grafts alone. The exact wording on many of the grafts that gives a bonus to NA says this: improves the grafted creature’s natural armor bonus.

Perhaps I'm wrong about grafts stacking, but at the very least you could nab a +3 or +4 from grafts, saving you some feats/LA.

IF, and this is a big if, I am right about my interpretation of grafts, then you can easily get +8 or more NA from grafts alone.

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-08, 05:23 PM
Trying to make the build more efficient
So lets start with Desert Kobold with Dragonwrought
+1 LA Half- Minotaur +4 NA + 6 Con(Medium Size)
+1 LA Half- Ogre +5 NA +4 Con (Large Size)
+1 LA Voidmind +4 NA +2 Con
+1 LA Mineral Warrior +3 NA +4 Con

Start with 18 Con, +16 from Templates
34 Con

Desert Kobold, Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Voidmind, Mineral Warrior

+16 NA +4 LA
Level 1: Knight - Dragonwrought
Level 2: Duskblade
Level 3: OA Samaurai - Iron Will
Level 4: Aristocrat
Level 5: Hexblade
Level 6: Binder - Improved Binding

16 NA
Bind Dehlver-Nar for +6 NA

You can start taking the class at 11th level.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 06:29 PM
Note that that's why I'm asking whether it could be done pre-epic.

Also note that it's aimed at NPCs for the most part. Most of those getting in, by just the normal MM, are Adult Blue Dragons, Adult Bronze Dragons, Young Adult Gold Dragons and Young Adult Silver Dragons.

Now, could we focus on whether it's even possible as a PC to achieve it pre-epic (barring Polymorph, as I frankly don't want to play as a Dragon Turtle <_<;;), instead of saying that the class is hax because it's a normally epic PRC that could potentially be pre-epic?

approach it as following:
1. Hey DM, you know how broken epic casting is right? (if he says no, point him at these forums and he will soon learn)...
2. Well, there is this cool PrC I want, but it assumes a +20 NA which is only acquireable via that same broken as hell RAW epic casting we aren't using, can you rework it with reasonable prereqs?

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 08:34 PM
approach it as following:
1. Hey DM, you know how broken epic casting is right? (if he says no, point him at these forums and he will soon learn)...
2. Well, there is this cool PrC I want, but it assumes a +20 NA which is only acquireable via that same broken as hell RAW epic casting we aren't using, can you rework it with reasonable prereqs?

We don't need epic casting, if you have a look at the rest of the thread and the suggestions that are available. Also, how do you propose I afford epic casting pre-epic? I'd have to find an epic caster (no small feat) and then persuade them to research a spell to do what I ask and probably not afford to do it. It's totally infeasible and thus not something to worry about. A combination of templates, classes, feats, grafts and items seems to be the best way to achieve it pre-epic and that's how I'll probably do so.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 08:37 PM
We don't need epic casting, if you have a look at the rest of the thread and the suggestions that are available. Also, how do you propose I afford epic casting pre-epic? I'd have to find an epic caster (no small feat) and then persuade them to research a spell to do what I ask and probably not afford to do it. It's totally infeasible and thus not something to worry about. A combination of templates, classes, feats, grafts and items seems to be the best way to achieve it pre-epic and that's how I'll probably do so.

reread what I just said. the point is that you probably ban epic casting, that means you cannot get it...
And your pre epic solutions included using an amulet, which you can't.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 08:51 PM
In light of amusing homebrew

Feral Half Minotaur Dragonwrought Desert Kobold

6+4 = 10 starting NA Use LA buyoff to get it down to 1
Evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums//showthread.php?t=112349) 5 +10 NA, +6 will - Take Botanist at level 1. Take Natural Armor, Bark, and Evolve Will.
3x Good will progression classes.

In at ecl 9 exactly.
Next level you can buy off your LA too, so you can take all 12 levels of it before epic. Amusing.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 09:03 PM
reread what I just said. the point is that you probably ban epic casting, that means you cannot get it...
And your pre epic solutions included using an amulet, which you can't.

Why can't I? Where does it say I can't use magic items to meet requirements? If I have a Strength of 12 and I put on a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power to bring it up to 14, I now can get Power Attack, since my Strength is now 13 or higher. If I take them off, my Strength returns to 12, I know longer qualify and simply lose access to the feat. The fact that that can happen does not mean I can't take the feat while I do meet the requirements.

The same applies here for using an Amulet of Natural Armor to help meet the Natural Armor requirement of Hidecarved Dragon. If I remove it, then and only then will I not qualify for the class and then I'd lose access to class features and whatnot. The fact that I'm gaining the benefit through an item and that I could lose access doesn't disallow me from getting into the class in the first place, I just have to realize that I should take precautions should I take such a measure.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 09:08 PM
If I have a Strength of 12 and I put on a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power to bring it up to 14, I now can get Power Attack
No, you cannot, that is using a magic item to meet prerequisites.

I am almost positive it says you cannot use magic items to meet prerequisites.
Also you do not get bonus skillpoints if wearing a headband of intellect...

I think it is silly personally, but them are the rules.

Lapak
2009-10-08, 09:31 PM
No, you cannot, that is using a magic item to meet prerequisites.

I am almost positive it says you cannot use magic items to meet prerequisites.
Also you do not get bonus skillpoints if wearing a headband of intellect...

I think it is silly personally, but them are the rules.For feats, it appears that you can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites):

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.It doesn't say that it has to be an inherent quality, just that you must have it, and it does account for what happens if you lose it.
I don't know about PRCs, though someone mentioned a book reference earlier.

Akal Saris
2009-10-08, 09:36 PM
First off, it's worth noting that the flavor says that some half-giants use magic to enhance their NA in order to enter the PrC, so there is some argument for entering with help from an Amulet of Natural Armor, for example.


Trying to make the build more efficient
So lets start with Desert Kobold with Dragonwrought
+1 LA Half- Minotaur +4 NA + 6 Con(Medium Size)
+1 LA Half- Ogre +5 NA +4 Con (Large Size)
+1 LA Voidmind +4 NA +2 Con
+1 LA Mineral Warrior +3 NA +4 Con

Start with 18 Con, +16 from Templates
34 Con

Desert Kobold, Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Voidmind, Mineral Warrior

+16 NA +4 LA
Level 1: Knight - Dragonwrought
Level 2: Duskblade
Level 3: OA Samaurai - Iron Will
Level 4: Aristocrat
Level 5: Hexblade
Level 6: Binder - Improved Binding

16 NA
Bind Dehlver-Nar for +6 NA

You can start taking the class at 11th level.

This looks like the best suggestion I've seen so far. Let's try and improve on it. Here's my attempt to improve on it.

+0 LA Desert Kobold, gives +1 NA
+0 size (small to large): +3 NA, -4 Dex, +12 Str, +6 Con
+1 LA Half- Minotaur +2 NA + 6 Con(Medium Size) Dragon Magazine material, doesn't change type so still legal. Should be +2 NA before binder.
+1 LA Half- Ogre +2 NA +0 Con (Large Size) Same Dragon article, still legal - Should be +2 NA before binder.
+1 LA Mineral Warrior +3 NA +4 Con. No problems here.
+1 LA Lolth-touched: Voidmind is incorrectly listed on CrystalKeep as +1 LA, it is in fact +3 LA - so I'll substitute Lolth-touched in its place. That's +6 Con and +0 NA.

Start with 18 Con, +14 from Templates
38 Con = +7 NA from Binder

Desert Kobold, Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched = +4 LA, +11 NA

Total NA +18
Template stat changes after all's finished:
Stats: Str +26, Con +34, Dex -2, Int -3, Wis +3, Cha -1

Level 1: Swordsage - Dragonwrought
Level 2: Knight
Level 3: Binder - Improved Binding
Level 4: Duskblade
Level 5: Hexblade
Level 6: Cleric - Iron Will

Where can this build get 2 more NA without items?

taltamir
2009-10-08, 09:54 PM
For feats, it appears that you can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites):
It doesn't say that it has to be an inherent quality, just that you must have it, and it does account for what happens if you lose it.
I don't know about PRCs, though someone mentioned a book reference earlier.

actually it refers to losing inherant prereqs... for example, feeblemind means you can no longer use an int based feat.
strength drain or level drain can disqualify you for many martial feats, etc

Lemme quite the PHB:

PREREQUISITES
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite. For example, at 3rd level, Krusk, the halforc barbarian, could spend 1 skill point on the Ride skill
(gaining his first rank in Ride) and select the Mounted Combat
feat at the same time.
A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. For example, if your character’s Strength drops below 13 because a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can’t use the Power Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 10:00 PM
First off, it's worth noting that the flavor says that some half-giants use magic to enhance their NA in order to enter the PrC, so there is some argument for entering with help from an Amulet of Natural Armor, for example.



This looks like the best suggestion I've seen so far. Let's try and improve on it. Here's my attempt to improve on it.

+0 LA Desert Kobold, gives +1 NA
+0 size (small to large): +3 NA, -4 Dex, +12 Str, +6 Con
+1 LA Half- Minotaur +2 NA + 6 Con(Medium Size) Dragon Magazine material, doesn't change type so still legal. Should be +2 NA before binder.
+1 LA Half- Ogre +2 NA +0 Con (Large Size) Same Dragon article, still legal - Should be +2 NA before binder.
+1 LA Mineral Warrior +3 NA +4 Con. No problems here.
+1 LA Lolth-touched: Voidmind is incorrectly listed on CrystalKeep as +1 LA, it is in fact +3 LA - so I'll substitute Lolth-touched in its place. That's +6 Con and +0 NA.

Start with 18 Con, +14 from Templates
38 Con = +7 NA from Binder

Desert Kobold, Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched = +4 LA, +11 NA

Total NA +18
Template stat changes after all's finished:
Stats: Str +26, Con +34, Dex -2, Int -3, Wis +3, Cha -1

Level 1: Swordsage - Dragonwrought
Level 2: Knight
Level 3: Binder - Improved Binding
Level 4: Duskblade
Level 5: Hexblade
Level 6: Cleric - Iron Will

Where can this build get 2 more NA without items?
Switch Lolth-touched for feral. You'll lose 4 con (only +2 from the template), but trade in the kobold's normal +1 NA, for +6 Na.

other stat mods +4 Str, -2 dex, -4 int, +2 wis

Akal Saris
2009-10-08, 10:29 PM
I would, but feral also says "if the base creature's NA is higher, use that instead". You could certainly argue that this references only Desert Kobold and not the other 3 templates stacked on, but personally I see it the other way - that the NA won't stack with the other base NA granted by his other templates. That would hit NA 22 though!

I really like Mineral Warrior, as a side note - those are some insane and very earth-flavored bonuses, and I also like that you can give the template to followers with the Mineralize Warrior spell (Sorc/Wiz 6) at the cost of gold and experience. Having a method to gain a template is always more interesting, especially one that involves being buried alive and serving your creator for a year and a day.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 10:44 PM
I guess so. Hmm

sofawall
2009-10-08, 11:16 PM
actually it refers to losing inherant prereqs... for example, feeblemind means you can no longer use an int based feat.
strength drain or level drain can disqualify you for many martial feats, etc

Lemme quite the PHB:

This here thread may be relevant. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19570342/Stat_Boosts_and_Feat_Prereqs?num=10&pg=1)

Seems to be a consensus here and there. And something tells me you aren't the only one who sees the truth is a land full of sheeple. I suspect you are merely wrong.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 11:39 PM
C War p 16 implicitly allows it since it talks about what happens if you lose a magic item granting a pre-req, which wouldn't be necessary if it weren't possible.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 11:45 PM
This here thread may be relevant. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19570342/Stat_Boosts_and_Feat_Prereqs?num=10&pg=1)

Seems to be a consensus here and there. And something tells me you aren't the only one who sees the truth is a land full of sheeple. I suspect you are merely wrong.

two guys here, two guys in that thread... no official response or source.
The thread is mostly going off on a tangent almost immediately.

Alleine
2009-10-09, 12:08 AM
two guys here, two guys in that thread... no official response or source.
The thread is mostly going off on a tangent almost immediately.

It was mentioned earlier, but the specific text wasn't given, so here it is.


Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

Emphasis mine. Complete Warrior page 16.


I still think you ought to use grafts too. A flat +X to natural armor is pretty sweet, even if they're a little pricey. Plus there's the added bonus of never being able to lose it unless you are killed and literally have it torn from you. There are NA grafts in Fiend Folio, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 12:17 AM
ok, now that is an official source. I guess you can do it.

Cieyrin
2009-10-09, 12:18 AM
I still think you ought to use grafts too. A flat +X to natural armor is pretty sweet, even if they're a little pricey. Plus there's the added bonus of never being able to lose it unless you are killed and literally have it torn from you. There are NA grafts in Fiend Folio, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness.

Oh, I am seriously considering putting grafts into the equation here, no worries. Makes me a bit saner, I think, than templated mutant syndrome, just a different thing comes about in the end.

Kylarra
2009-10-09, 12:23 AM
Mmm


Bonemail (Bad Latin/FF) +2 NA - 16k cost - doesn't appear to have the going mad effect

Yuan-ti Skin (FF) +3 NA - 36k cost

Beholder Plated Skin (FF)+4 NA - 64k cost -

Gleaming Scales (RotD) +1 NA - 9k -4hp cost, also gives 5 resist of donor dragon's energy type

LoM's doesn't stack with existing natural armor, so it's not useful here.

So your best bet would be bone mail I suppose, unless you like going insane evil.

sofawall
2009-10-09, 12:23 AM
two guys here, two guys in that thread... no official response or source.
The thread is mostly going off on a tangent almost immediately.

Yet, no one disagrees...

taltamir
2009-10-09, 12:35 AM
Yet, no one disagrees...
I disagreed (until shown the actual rule).

So here it was 2 to 1... there it was a random thread by random people where two people said something. Finding a thread with under 10 posts where two completely random people say something that agrees with your point is not hard.

I have personally had cases where dozens of people all said I was wrong and I turned out to be right.
One was when my math teacher was incorrectly using a limit, the entire class got on my "you think you are so smart that you know better then those geniuses who came up with those formula!" (she showed us how a 2 liter container loses 5 liters of water via a limit). She later checked with the other math teachers and they corrected her.

Another was when dozens of people on a tech forum told me that the reason my video card was artifacting was the PSU being insufficient power (and being overloaded by having 5 HDD... which is ludicrous as they took 2 watt each). I got a second PSU and a second video card and tested to prove I was right.

A more extreme example that didn't happen to me would be when galileo said the world was round... Or when real scientists point out the BS that is "humans cause global warming with CO2".
But anyways, once shown an actual piece of EVIDENCE instead of just a few people saying it is so, I immediately admitted to being wrong.

Gan The Grey
2009-10-09, 12:48 AM
I'm confused then. What's your stance on global warming?:smalltongue:

Oh, and I'd say that feral's NA bonus would apply before an acquired template's NA bonus, but not to an inherited template's NA bonus. Yeah.

Alleine
2009-10-09, 01:30 AM
Beholder Plated Skin (FF)+4 NA - 64k cost - has the madness

Eh? Beholder doesn't have madness, that's only Fiendish grafts. And don't forget the Yuan-ti graft. +3 for 36,000



Oh, I am seriously considering putting grafts into the equation here, no worries. Makes me a bit saner, I think, than templated mutant syndrome, just a different thing comes about in the end.

Yeah, at least one template is nice, but if you plan on actually playing this, then having 4 LA or more isn't very fun. Plus I remember someone arguing about the inability to stack NA bonuses from templates. At least for Feral.

Kylarra
2009-10-09, 01:42 AM
Eh? Beholder doesn't have madness, that's only Fiendish grafts. And don't forget the Yuan-ti graft. +3 for 36,000
Oops my bad. Must've misread the book.

Cieyrin
2009-10-09, 11:49 AM
Yeah, at least one template is nice, but if you plan on actually playing this, then having 4 LA or more isn't very fun. Plus I remember someone arguing about the inability to stack NA bonuses from templates. At least for Feral.

Yeah, you gotta read the NA bonus carefully, as some of them, like in the case of Feral, they replace existing Natural Armor rather than add to it.