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View Full Version : 0 wis or cha means you are an object... how can we break this?



taltamir
2009-10-08, 10:16 PM
from rules compendium page 105:

WISDOM
Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Only objects have no Wisdom score, and an object that has no Wisdom score
also has no Charisma score.
CHARISMA
Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and other creatures and objects has at least 1 point of Charisma. Only objects have no Charisma score, and an object that has no Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

So when you drain someone to 0 wisdom they are an object? nice :)

Godskook
2009-10-08, 10:18 PM
So when you drain someone to 0 wisdom they are an object? nice :)

Yeah, there's even a name for someone who in this case. They're called vegetables.

kenjigoku
2009-10-08, 10:18 PM
No it means they lack a score. Much like undead lack a CON score. For undead it is not 0 it is a "-". An object would have a "-" WIS & a "-" CHA, while a drained person would have 0.

Kylarra
2009-10-08, 10:18 PM
incorrect. Having no score is not the same as having 0 in a score.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-08, 10:20 PM
So when you drain someone to 0 wisdom they are an object? nice :)

Not quite; "no Wisdom" and "drained to 0 Wisdom" are different cases. An object has Wis -- and Cha --, not Wis 0 and Cha 0. If you have Wis/Cha --, you don't have any ability to perceive yourself or your surroundings; if you have Wis/Cha 0, you did up until a while ago, but now you're in a coma.

EDIT: Damn ninjas. :smallsigh: I did explain it better, though.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 10:21 PM
awww... you guys are right... And here I was hoping for some cool by the RAW shenanigans (thought experiment ones mind you)

Blackfang108
2009-10-09, 08:32 AM
awww... you guys are right... And here I was hoping for some cool by the RAW shenanigans (thought experiment ones mind you)

What? Using Shrink Object on a person who's been Ego-Whipped into submission?

JeenLeen
2009-10-09, 08:49 AM
I could see something with awakening the object (giving it a bonus to some stats) and then healing it so that it recovers whatever drained it to 0.

If it worked, that is.

Prime32
2009-10-09, 09:05 AM
awww... you guys are right... And here I was hoping for some cool by the RAW shenanigans (thought experiment ones mind you)Well at least if they have a stat drained to 0 you can coup-de-grace them...

ericgrau
2009-10-09, 09:06 AM
A dead person OTOH, is an object IIRC. I could be wrong here. Dunno what else you can do to him now that he's dead, though. Except shrink item to make your dead allies easier to carry around.

Prime32
2009-10-09, 09:08 AM
A dead person OTOH, is an object IIRC. Dunno what else you can do to him now that he's dead, though. Except shrink item to make your dead allies easier to carry around.RAW, there are no penalties for being dead. :smalltongue:

ericgrau
2009-10-09, 09:11 AM
Hmm, I tried to find that rule and didn't see it. Maybe I just heard it from a former gaming group. We wanted to use shrink item on giant corpses, to throw into the room before a fight to be intimidating. Except a giant corpse was beyond the weight limit.

Da Pwnzlord
2009-10-09, 09:14 AM
RAW, there are no penalties for being dead. :smalltongue:

You're still in negative hit points. You can't do anything.

Arakune
2009-10-09, 09:34 AM
But now you have 'object hp', and if that falls to 0, you are destroyed :smalltongue:

ericgrau
2009-10-09, 09:42 AM
You're still in negative hit points. You can't do anything.

There's no rule that says so. :smalltongue: Just get back up and keep fighting man! This is the classic thing to say to anyone who says "Nothing in RAW says I can't do my crazy idea!"

Optimystik
2009-10-09, 09:47 AM
There's no rule that says so. :smalltongue: Just get back up and keep fighting man! This is the classic thing to say to anyone who says "Nothing in RAW says I can't do my crazy idea!"

The relevant rule is here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryanddeath.htm)

"when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down."

A dead character always has -10 HP, and having negative HP means that your nonlethal damage (even if it's 0) will always exceed your current hitpoints. You are therefore unconscious by RAW.

It's a bit roundabout, but that's what Pwnz was getting at.

lesser_minion
2009-10-09, 09:54 AM
It's actually noted that any dead creature has -10 hitpoints, no matter what. That means that their current hitpoints are always less than the lowest nonlethal damage total they can attain, meaning that they will always be unconscious.

It's a bit roundabout, because I doubt that anyone actually expected to have to stipulate in the rules that a dead character is unable to act, but it does work.

Bayar
2009-10-09, 10:01 AM
It's actually noted that any dead creature has -10 hitpoints, no matter what. That means that their current hitpoints are always less than the lowest nonlethal damage total they can attain, meaning that they will always be unconscious.

It's a bit roundabout, because I doubt that anyone actually expected to have to stipulate in the rules that a dead character is unable to act, but it does work.

So, you can rez someone if you cast Cure Minor Wounds ? XD

sofawall
2009-10-09, 10:05 AM
You'd have to cast it a few times, but I think so, yes.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 10:05 AM
So, you can rez someone if you cast Cure Minor Wounds ? XD

No. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm)
Morbo says Death does not work that way.

Dead

The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic.

Optimystik
2009-10-09, 10:06 AM
So, you can rez someone if you cast Cure Minor Wounds ? XD

Well, for one the cure spells specify "living creatures" so they won't restore hitpoints to dead ones. Heal says it "cures" hitpoints, so it would follow the same rules.

For two, CMW couldn't get you from -10 to 0 on its own even if it did work on the dead.

Edit: Raven's quote is a tad more precise on this point.

Random832
2009-10-09, 10:14 AM
Wait a minute...


magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device).

It's clear that "Full health" means Resurrection or True Res, and the other thing means Raise Dead.

This means that Roy would have been fine with just a Raise, since his body was in good condition _before_ being shot in the nuts, being allowed to decompose for a few months, being made into a bone golem, and then the bone golem being smashed.

Bayar
2009-10-09, 10:15 AM
Yeah, I was saying it as a joke there. And CMW works on un-dead. you can choose to heal or hurt them with it, if you are the one that created them...

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 10:26 AM
Yeah, I was saying it as a joke there. And CMW works on un-dead. you can choose to heal or hurt them with it, if you are the one that created them...
Now where in the deities verdant mud does it say that?:smallconfused:
Random832,
One, OoTS doesn't play by explicit 3.5 rules.
Two. Raise dead has a time limit. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raisedead.htm)

Optimystik
2009-10-09, 10:31 AM
Wait a minute...

It's clear that "Full health" means Resurrection or True Res, and the other thing means Raise Dead.

This means that Roy would have been fine with just a Raise, since his body was in good condition _before_ being shot in the nuts, being allowed to decompose for a few months, being made into a bone golem, and then the bone golem being smashed.

Yes, Roy would have been fine with a Raise all the way up until he was turned into a Golem. That's why Haley was so angry at Celia.

(Getting shot in the nuts and decomposing didn't do enough damage to his body to make a regular raise impossible. It was specifically being turned into a Golem that did that.)

Random832
2009-10-09, 10:42 AM
Yeah, I was saying it as a joke there. And CMW works on un-dead. you can choose to heal or hurt them with it, if you are the one that created them...

Um, no. But if you are creating undead, you probably have inflict-line spells (which do heal undead). That's how Tsukiko healed Xykon, for instance (despite not having created him)

Sliver
2009-10-09, 10:49 AM
Yeah, I was saying it as a joke there. And CMW works on un-dead. you can choose to heal or hurt them with it, if you are the one that created them...

Only way to heal undead with positive energy is to send them to the positive energy plane, IIRC..

Haven
2009-10-09, 10:56 AM
There's no rule that says so. :smalltongue: Just get back up and keep fighting man! This is the classic thing to say to anyone who says "Nothing in RAW says I can't do my crazy idea!"

RAW, RAW, Fight the powah!

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-09, 11:11 AM
I think I remember a theory that Freedom of Movement overcame the limitations and restrictions of death and unconsciousness.

Another thing you could do with a dead body is Animate it. Cast permanency on it. Then do a maximized awaken construct on it. Would be even more effective if you attached some wheels onto the body before animating it.

lesser_minion
2009-10-09, 11:15 AM
So, you can rez someone if you cast Cure Minor Wounds ? XD

Well, the rule is something along the lines of "no matter how it died, a dead creature is treated as having -10 hitpoints, if for some reason it becomes relevant".

Bizarrely, it's in the description of death effects, rather than actually being listed in the condition summary.

Raise Dead is pretty specific that the only real improvements it makes are to close lethal wounds, fix any annoying post-mortem issues (that specifically pertain to being dead, like rigor mortis), and heal a tiny number of hp.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 11:17 AM
Only way to heal undead with positive energy is to send them to the positive energy plane, IIRC..
Technically speaking, RAW, it's not the positive enrgy that is healing you, it's just that being on the plane gives you fast healing 5 or 2, depending if it's major or minor. The fort save on to not explode does only effects creatures and most undead are immune to those kinds of fort saves.
Yeah, someone didn't think all the implications here. Still, that's not how it works if I was DMing.

Nai_Calus
2009-10-09, 11:25 AM
The relevant rule is here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryanddeath.htm)

"when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down."

A dead character always has -10 HP, and having negative HP means that your nonlethal damage (even if it's 0) will always exceed your current hitpoints. You are therefore unconscious by RAW.

It's a bit roundabout, but that's what Pwnz was getting at.

I love how that's almost as tortured an interpretation of the rules as saying there are no penalties for being dead is.

Oh, 3.5. You crazy nonsensical edition, you.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-09, 11:27 AM
I love how that's almost as tortured an interpretation of the rules as saying there are no penalties for being dead is.

I do concur.

Sliver
2009-10-09, 11:28 AM
Yeah, someone didn't think all the implications here. Still, that's not how it works if I was DMing.

I don't think it would work at any DM's game.. Unless as a joke or something..

Then the next BBEG's plot would be to open a gate to the positive energy plane 'cuz it contains tons of undead with a lot of temp HP..

Random832
2009-10-09, 11:29 AM
I think I remember a theory that Freedom of Movement overcame the limitations and restrictions of death and unconsciousness.

That's a dubious theory, but you know what else could in theory overcome death?

IRON HEART SURGE!

Sliver
2009-10-09, 11:36 AM
That's a dubious theory, but you know what else could in theory overcome death?

IRON HEART SURGE!

Could it cancel all death in the world? Can you cancel the age effects if you are old enough? would it cancel them for all mortals?

Random832
2009-10-09, 11:37 AM
When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately.

holy.

crap.

(To pre-empt an argument we've had before on these boards, I'll note that there is a dispute of whether "1 or more rounds" just means at least one round or if it is rather that it has to be measured in rounds [and not, say, minutes or days]. But since only spells have duration descriptors, I believe that it cannot be in reference to them)

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 11:41 AM
When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately.

holy.

crap.
Yes, but it won't save you as your dead, you can't take actions when your dead.
GOTO 10

Random832
2009-10-09, 11:43 AM
Yes, but it won't save you as your dead, you can't take actions when your dead.
GOTO 10

What if you ready an action?

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 11:47 AM
What if you ready an action?
Action, free, action ,swift action, immediate action, move action, standard action. You. Are. Dead. Your corpse can't do the iron heart surge that would otherwise put you in the land of the mobile. You have to be dead before you can meet the condition your trying to Iron Heart surge away and if you ready that action, you are only a moment away from being dead and so do not meet the requirements for the condition (Dead) you are trying to Iron Heart away.

Random832
2009-10-09, 11:48 AM
Action, free, action ,swift action, immediate action, move action, standard action. You. Are. Dead. Your corpse can't do the iron heart surge that would otherwise put you in the land of the mobile.

What if you're animated as undead?

technophile
2009-10-09, 11:52 AM
What if you ready an action?
Then it would interrupt whatever would cause you to be dead, and since you aren't dead yet, you can't IHS. :smallamused:

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 11:52 AM
What if you're animated as undead?An undead is a kind of creature. It no longer has the condition of being dead. And being undead is not a condition.

ericgrau
2009-10-09, 11:58 AM
Yes, but it won't save you as your dead, you can't take actions when your dead.
GOTO 10
RAW doesn't say you can't. J/k. It doesn't, but no sane person would let a person act while dead. Though that's not any worse than iron heart surging away death. Now all you need is to slip an item of self-activating iron heart surge into the game.

Sliver
2009-10-09, 11:59 AM
An undead is a kind of creature. It no longer has the condition of being dead. And being undead is not a condition.

But being animated is.. Right? Undead can totally IHS their animation away.. Right?
I should not check before I post.. Animate Dead is Instantaneous.. I am so angry! I should just make a vampire that would IHS the sun away!....

Can you IHS gravity?

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 12:05 PM
But being animated is.. Right? Undead can totally IHS their animation away.. Right?
I should not check before I post.. Animate Dead is Instantaneous.. I am so angry! I should just make a vampire that would IHS the sun away!....

Can you IHS gravity?
I would rule a vampire could IHS the effects of being in sunlight, heroing up the will power to not crumble into powder. But the sun would still shine. I would also rule (rule 0) that they would have to make will saves to not lose their resolve.
Gravity is not a listed condition, and so you can't RAW your way out of this one.
I would allow a sufficient distraction just before hitting the ground however to have the wanted effect. . .

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 12:09 PM
RAW doesn't say you can't. J/k. It doesn't, but no sane person would let a person act while dead. Though that's not any worse than iron heart surging away death. Now all you need is to slip an item of self-activating iron heart surge into the game.
GOTO 10! Or rather, go to what Optimystik said in post #16. Can maneuvers be even put into items?:smallconfused:

Sliver
2009-10-09, 12:15 PM
I would rule a vampire could IHS the effects of being in sunlight, heroing up the will power to not crumble into powder. But the sun would still shine. I would also rule (rule 0) that they would have to make will saves to not lose their resolve.
Gravity is not a listed condition, and so you can't RAW your way out of this one.
I would allow a sufficient distraction just before hitting the ground however to have the wanted effect. . .

Well, I didn't find a written definition of "condition" in the D&D glossary.. Isn't gravity a planar trait that is effecting you? Effect doesn't have a definition as well.. So the effects of the sun and gravity could be canceled! By the power of RAW! Only poor DMs would disallow such actions!

Keshay
2009-10-09, 12:21 PM
Easiest way to rule IHS: Death is instantaneous, gravity is instantaneous, sunlight is instantaneous. "X" condition/effect is instantaneous...

Most every "condition" that people try to apply IHS to that makes no physical or logical sense can be described as having a duration of instantaneous. (in the case of sunlight and gravity, the effects are instantaneous and instantly repeating, so they appear to havea longer duration, however this is not the case, as the light/gravitions/what-have-you that effected you a nanosecond ago are different from the ones effecting you right now.)

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 12:25 PM
Well, I didn't find a written definition of "condition" in the D&D glossary.. Isn't gravity a planar trait that is effecting you? Effect doesn't have a definition as well.. So the effects of the sun and gravity could be canceled! By the power of RAW! Only poor DMs would disallow such actions!
Two Words.
Condition Summery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm).
And gravity is a planer trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm), and traits aren't effects.
And RAW can suck it.
There is a greater rule, Rule 0.

lesser_minion
2009-10-09, 12:52 PM
Well, I'd probably rule that an effect has to be something analogous to a spell - a power, manoeuvre or something else that needs to be consciously 'instanced' by someone or something.

A condition is either something bestowed by an 'effect' and described in the rules for that effect, or a general condition described in the DMG.

Neither of those are defined properly in the rules, but at some point people are going to have to accept that the rules are not meant to be treated as some form of legal code.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 12:56 PM
*looks up*
*feels embarrassed*
I so need to get my own avatar.

Bayar
2009-10-09, 02:10 PM
Action, free, action ,swift action, immediate action, move action, standard action. You. Are. Dead. Your corpse can't do the iron heart surge that would otherwise put you in the land of the mobile. You have to be dead before you can meet the condition your trying to Iron Heart surge away and if you ready that action, you are only a moment away from being dead and so do not meet the requirements for the condition (Dead) you are trying to Iron Heart away.

I ready an action to Iron Heart Surge if I die.

Good enough ?

Dixieboy
2009-10-09, 02:15 PM
Yes, but it won't save you as your dead, you can't take actions when your dead.
GOTO 10

Ah, but the fact that you are dead makes your warblade teammate very sad, it "affects him" so to speak. :smallwink:

lesser_minion
2009-10-09, 02:17 PM
*looks up*
*feels embarrassed*
I so need to get my own avatar.

Well, I could switch to something else if it makes you feel better.

Indon
2009-10-09, 02:46 PM
Yes, but it won't save you as your dead, you can't take actions when your dead.
GOTO 10

What would happen if you used it at 0 HP (the Disabled condition)?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-10-09, 03:04 PM
To touch back on the topic of death and dying, here are all the relevant rules for death:



Dead

The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

Now, there's no actual rules in there except for the -10 hit points or 0 Constitution part. Still, we can extrapolate from the dying entry:



Dying

A dying character is unconscious and near death. She has -1 to -9 current hit points. A dying character can take no actions and is unconscious. At the end of each round (starting with the round in which the character dropped below 0 hit points), the character rolls d% to see whether she becomes stable. She has a 10% chance to become stable. If she does not, she loses 1 hit point. If a dying character reaches -10 hit points, she is dead.

So you can take no actions, and are unconscious when between -1 and -9 hit points. However, if a dying character reaches -10 hit points, she is dead. This specifically means that the character in question is no longer dying, and hence the dying rules can no longer apply.

You are unconscious, however, since your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit point total.


Unconscious

Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

Knocked out doesn't have any specifics associated with it, so we can, by RAW, ignore this. It's the helpless part that is important. Let's see what helplessness is.


Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

So you're effectively paralyzed, or otherwise constrained. All of these, however, are the equivalent of being paralyzed for whatever reason, so that's a good baseline.


Paralyzed

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

Emphasis mine. It appears that, by RAW, it is entirely possible to play a dead Psion as a valid character, provided you can manifest an equivalent of fly or overland flight to get you from point A to point B.

Case closed.

Cespenar
2009-10-09, 03:05 PM
What would happen if you used it at 0 HP (the Disabled condition)?

You remove the Disabled condition, but receive 1 point of damage after it, bringing you to -1, which grants another condition onto you, "dying". Which you can't IHS away, because you can't take actions while dying.

But if you would somehow get 1 points of healing while doing that, you would end up having 0 hp and not being Disabled. Much trouble for such a little thing, but that's it. :smallbiggrin:

As a closing note, I have never understood people who think of IHS'ing the sun away and all that. There exists a perfectly capable "Conditions" section as it's linked several posts ago. "Ah, but does IHS mention 'conditions' or 'Conditions'?" is really not a very smart argument.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 03:07 PM
What would happen if you used it at 0 HP (the Disabled condition)?
In that case you hero it up and are able to act normally, BUT, if you take a hit, your now into negatives, which brings about another condition, differant from Disabled, Dying. Which you can also surge away BUT, you still in negative hit points, your HP stays the same. Like the Diehard feat. This, in my view is what Iron Heart Surge is for, heroing it up while the baddie backs up, saying, "You can barely stand. . ." It is meant to represent heroic will power, in my view, the drive to keep on keeping on.
Oh and lesser_minion? No worries, I just made my own.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-10-09, 03:10 PM
As a closing note, I have never understood people who think of IHS'ing the sun away and all that. There exists a perfectly capable "Conditions" section as it's linked several posts ago. "Ah, but does IHS mention 'conditions' or 'Conditions'?" is really not a very smart argument.

That's actually the argument. IHS specifies that it removes conditions, and, regardless of your interpretation, being blinded is a condition (in that section, nonetheless). If you're a drow, the sun is imposing a blinded condition, just like a dominate person spell produces a dominated condition. Therefore, it can be argued (strangely enough) that, as the maneuver would end the spell completely, it will therefore end the sun completely.

I don't like it, but it's hard to argue against by RAW, since it's incredibly ambiguous.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 03:12 PM
*snipped*
Go to post 16.
Sorry.
*edit*

Oh lord of mercy. IHS would remove the blinded condition, your were able to heroically open your eyes despite the pain and look out into the world but all that means is you now can see. By your claimed 'RAW', removing a curse by IHS would also remove the agent casting the curse. Iron Heart Surge IS ambiguous, but not THAT much.

Cespenar
2009-10-09, 03:17 PM
That's actually the argument. IHS specifies that it removes conditions, and, regardless of your interpretation, being blinded is a condition (in that section, nonetheless). If you're a drow, the sun is imposing a blinded condition, just like a dominate person spell produces a dominated condition. Therefore, it can be argued (strangely enough) that, as the maneuver would end the spell completely, it will therefore end the sun completely.

I don't like it, but it's hard to argue against by RAW, since it's incredibly ambiguous.

That argument is flawed. IHS removes the condition, not the source. We can think of the sun as the "caster" here, which is clearly different from the "blind" condition it gives you. Just as you can't IHS the caster away for casting something on you, you can't IHS the sun. You can IHS the "blind" condition freely, though.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 03:20 PM
On a completely unrelated note, how is my new avatar?
Too cliché?

Random832
2009-10-09, 03:23 PM
You are unconscious, however, since your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit point total.

Nope. "or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points" requires the nonlethal damage to exist.

Heliomance
2009-10-09, 03:44 PM
Nope. 0>-10.

Random832
2009-10-09, 04:08 PM
Not 0. You do not have nonlethal damage, in the same sense that an undead creature does not have a constitution score.

The phrasing requires you to have actually taken nonlethal damage.

Now, if you take any you're gone, whether from 0 or from -1 or from -10. But there's not a lot to automatically convert intended lethal damage to nonlethal, so as long as you make sure all your enemies are trying to kill you...

Indon
2009-10-09, 04:14 PM
You remove the Disabled condition, but receive 1 point of damage after it, bringing you to -1, which grants another condition onto you, "dying". Which you can't IHS away, because you can't take actions while dying.

Okay.

The Diehard feat reads, "When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying." (emphasis added). So if you're at negative hit points with the Diehard feat, you're still dying, but you are allowed to act as if you were not - allowing you to IHS out of dying?

Now we just need a way to get around Diehard's dead at -10 clause and we'll have IHS immortality.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 04:18 PM
I would say your still at negative hit points, but your not at risk of losing more from strenuous actions. It removes the condition, but your hit points stay the same.

RS14
2009-10-09, 04:31 PM
Diehard works. Play a frail Psion with minimal con, starting at 0hp. His first strenuous action causes him to lose 1hp. Diehard comes into play, and he continues to act as if he is disabled. Once he hits -10, for whatever reason, he can still continue to act, as "When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying." As has been reduced to negative hit points, he may choose to act as if disabled.

The potential problem is "rather than dying." Does this impose a requirement that the character must be in a state such that he would typically be dying for it to apply? Can anyone argue this away well?

lesser_minion
2009-10-09, 04:34 PM
Not 0. You do not have nonlethal damage, in the same sense that an undead creature does not have a constitution score.

The phrasing requires you to have actually taken nonlethal damage.


The only requirement is for your nonlethal damage to be in excess of your hitpoints.

"you simply don't have any nonlethal damage unless hit by an appropriate attack" is no better substantiated by the rules than "your nonlethal damage is zero unless you have been hit by...", and it makes sense to go with the less bizarre interpretation.

It makes more sense for those who are not subject to nonlethal damage to "simply not have" any.

Cespenar
2009-10-09, 04:46 PM
Yes, IHS + Diehard seems pretty viable, if not a bit pointless. Though it's fun I guess.

About IHS'ing away death, I don't think there's some feat/ability out there that both keeps your 'dead' condition and allows you to take willing actions. Undeath and other similar things obviously don't work.

Edit: Even without giving immortality, if you rule that you can do IHS with all those listed conditions, it's still incredibly useful, to the point of being overpowered.

Some of those weird and/or overpowered examples include: ability drained, energy drained, exhausted, grappling, incorporeal (a warblade ghost can probably assume a permament physical body with this, which seems fun).

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 04:47 PM
Diehard works. Play a frail Psion with minimal con, starting at 0hp. His first strenuous action causes him to lose 1hp. Diehard comes into play, and he continues to act as if he is disabled. Once he hits -10, for whatever reason, he can still continue to act, as "When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying." As has been reduced to negative hit points, he may choose to act as if disabled.

The potential problem is "rather than dying." Does this impose a requirement that the character must be in a state such that he would typically be dying for it to apply? Can anyone argue this away well?
Yes, it makes a big difference. If it simply ended without it, we would have immortal iron heart surgers. But at -10 his condition changes from dying to dead. New condition.

RS14
2009-10-09, 05:07 PM
Yes, it makes a big difference. If it simply ended without it, we would have immortal iron heart surgers. But at -10 his condition changes from dying to dead. New condition.

The more I think about it, I don't think diehard ceases to apply simply because you're dead.

"When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying."

It can be interpreted as when reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to remove the dying condition and impose the disabled condition. It doesn't seem necessary that you be dying for this clause to apply.

Cespenar
2009-10-09, 05:18 PM
Just look at the feat's last sentence.

"If you reach -10 hit points, you immediately die."

But, but, it exactly says -10, what happens when you go right past it without touching the exact value?

Yeah.

Indon
2009-10-09, 05:28 PM
Ah, there we go.

Warblade with IHS and Diehard feat.

He drops to 0 HP, removes the Disabled condition with IHS, then refreshes the maneuver. Then he drops one more HP, removes the Dying condition with IHS, then refreshes the maneuver. Then he jumps off of something really tall that gets him to -11 health or lower, and... doesn't die???

Profit!

Edit: I think this supports my personal belief that maneuvers are very much like spells - now we have maneuver-liches.

tyckspoon
2009-10-09, 05:40 PM
Some of those weird and/or overpowered examples include: ability drained, energy drained, exhausted, grappling, incorporeal (a warblade ghost can probably assume a permament physical body with this, which seems fun).

I'm pretty sure that even IHS's borked RAW doesn't allow fixing (most) Ability Drains, thanks to the 'duration measured in rounds' thing- even if you take the more permissive way for that and allow it for anything that has a measured duration, Ability Drain typically comes from Instantaneous spells or monster attacks. RAI-wise, it's analogous to IHSing the 'condition' of "My stats aren't as high as I want them to be" which is patently ridiculous.

Energy drain (especially when understood as 'has the status condition "afflicted with one or more negative levels"), exhaustion, and grappled are all fine as conditions to end with IHS. Incorporeal's kinda weird when applied to things that are naturally that way.

Godskook
2009-10-09, 05:51 PM
Uh guys:


When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds.

Dying, Disabled, and Dead don't have 'durations', and therefore aren't valid targets of an Iron Heart Surge.

Paulus
2009-10-09, 05:52 PM
yes... but can one beat the human condition with IHS?

Pun-pun beware.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 07:09 PM
do non humans have the human condition?

I got it... the condition is "mortal"
You see, mortal DOES have a fixed duration, because the rules are very clear that there is no way to increase your lifespan, you have a set amount destined to you the day you are born, and should pass that you cannot be resurrected, and you cannot lengthen it... if you become "unaging" like a monk, you still die when your time comes.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 07:24 PM
Uh guys:



Dying, Disabled, and Dead don't have 'durations', and therefore aren't valid targets of an Iron Heart Surge.
I would allow the middle one and the first anyway, as the image of heroic resolve allowing one to get up and act, fully fit's my image of heroic willpower. It basically replicates the Diehard feat.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 07:35 PM
dying does has a round duration actually... you get a save every round (roll to stabilize), but it has a set duration of 1 round per HP above -10.

Random832
2009-10-09, 08:22 PM
I got it... the condition is "mortal"
You see, mortal DOES have a fixed duration, because the rules are very clear that there is no way to increase your lifespan, you have a set amount destined to you the day you are born

You mean the day you enter the Venerable age category. The die isn't rolled until then.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 08:32 PM
It can be interpreted as when reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to remove the dying condition and impose the disabled condition. It doesn't seem necessary that you be dying for this clause to apply.
*blinks*
Yes it does, you have to have been dying in order to make it so your not dying, any more. Your logic is like telling someone to shut up, who wasn't talking.
IHS may be weird, but don't make it do things it doesn't do, unless it follows Rule of Cool, Drama, or (maybe) Comedy.
An actual RAW silliness, is using IHS to remove the Stabilized condition. Oh I am so heroic, I shall . . .continue dying.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 08:47 PM
You mean the day you enter the Venerable age category. The die isn't rolled until then.

the die to determine what it is isn't rolled until then... but the condition IS fixed from the moment you enter existence... the DM just doesn't know the exact duration until he rolls for it... but by the RAW every being has a fixed time that cannot be altered.

Mewtarthio
2009-10-09, 08:53 PM
I got it... the condition is "mortal"
You see, mortal DOES have a fixed duration, because the rules are very clear that there is no way to increase your lifespan, you have a set amount destined to you the day you are born, and should pass that you cannot be resurrected, and you cannot lengthen it... if you become "unaging" like a monk, you still die when your time comes.

The "mortal" condition doesn't end when you die of old age. The "living" condition does. You've just figured out how to kill yourself just by willing yourself to die.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-09, 08:58 PM
the die to determine what it is isn't rolled until then... but the condition IS fixed from the moment you enter existence... the DM just doesn't know the exact duration until he rolls for it... but by the RAW every being has a fixed time that cannot be altered.
The dice are called random for a reason. Unless the whole real universe is a fixed series of events, the results are not fixed.
Besides, Mortality is not a listed condition, nor is it an effect that would add to the game by allowing it to work, unless you're playing Doddered and Dementia

taltamir
2009-10-09, 09:41 PM
The "mortal" condition doesn't end when you die of old age. The "living" condition does. You've just figured out how to kill yourself just by willing yourself to die.

awesome! great point, still can come in useful... forget suicide pills, I got a feat!

Cespenar
2009-10-10, 02:55 AM
I'm pretty sure that even IHS's borked RAW doesn't allow fixing (most) Ability Drains, thanks to the 'duration measured in rounds' thing- even if you take the more permissive way for that and allow it for anything that has a measured duration, Ability Drain typically comes from Instantaneous spells or monster attacks. RAI-wise, it's analogous to IHSing the 'condition' of "My stats aren't as high as I want them to be" which is patently ridiculous.

Energy drain (especially when understood as 'has the status condition "afflicted with one or more negative levels"), exhaustion, and grappled are all fine as conditions to end with IHS. Incorporeal's kinda weird when applied to things that are naturally that way.

That's correct, sorry, I've forgotten the "duration in rounds" line. But ability damage, as opposed to drain, can be arguably viable, and exhaustion is probably overpowered enough (perhaps not "overpowered", but... wrong).

Indon
2009-10-10, 10:06 AM
Dying, Disabled, and Dead don't have 'durations', and therefore aren't valid targets of an Iron Heart Surge.

Curses, I forgot that clause!

Vecna's bastard Warblade child is nonetheless undaunted by this, instead continuing to seek another path!

You don't need to IHS Dead necessarily anyway, you just need to IHS any condition which would make you dead, then remove yourself from the criteria that would bring up those conditions again (like skipping past -10 HP without a Disabled or Dying condition).


do non humans have the human condition?

I got it... the condition is "mortal"
You see, mortal DOES have a fixed duration, because the rules are very clear that there is no way to increase your lifespan, you have a set amount destined to you the day you are born, and should pass that you cannot be resurrected, and you cannot lengthen it... if you become "unaging" like a monk, you still die when your time comes.

If you IHS your mortal lifespan, wouldn't that just kill you?

"Iron Heart Suuurrrrraaargh!" *Fump*


dying does has a round duration actually... you get a save every round (roll to stabilize), but it has a set duration of 1 round per HP above -10.

But you couldn't IHS disabled with that ruling, meaning that a Warblade-Lich would be severely limited in their actions.


An actual RAW silliness, is using IHS to remove the Stabilized condition. Oh I am so heroic, I shall . . .continue dying.

If you're stablized and conscious, you're disabled, so using any maneuver would put you at dying.

taltamir
2009-10-29, 06:08 PM
If you IHS your mortal lifespan, wouldn't that just kill you?

"Iron Heart Suuurrrrraaargh!" *Fump*

Yes, yes it would... Cyanide pills are for wussies.