[3.5] ToB Balance - Switching Disciplines?

[DragoonWraith]

Hey, so I was wondering: how are the three Tome of Battle classes balanced against each other? I know they're all the same tier, but I'm curious about what features are worth what.

Like, are the three of them equally good at their martial maneuvers (i.e. do their ready and recovery mechanics balance out the relative number of maneuvers that they get), or are some of them better than others at them? Do the weaker ones have stronger class features to counter-act that?

For example, what if you had the class features of the Crusader, but the maneuvers, ready, and recovery mechanics of the Warblade - would it be better, equal, or worse than just straight Crusader?

Also, are each of the Disciplines equal? If you change the list of Disciplines a class has access to (a 1-to-1 swap), will the class remain at the same power level, or are some disciplines more powerful than others?

Thanks for any input!

[Mongoose87]

I think it's generally considered that Swordsages have the worst recovery mechanic.

[Animefunkmaster]

For starters, each discipline are not specifically balanced with each other. Take a look at the class specific disciplines: Crusader has Devoted Spirit, Swordsage has Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Warblade gets Iron Heart. I would put Devoted Spirit the top, closely followed by Shadow Hand then Iron Heart. But that's just me. Compare those disciplines with stone dragon and you can clearly see a difference in usability.

What plays more of a key role in this decision is recovery mechanic, which we can all agree puts Crusader up on top, followed very closely by Warblade and then Swordsage. Note: If combat lasts 3 rounds or less, Warblade's mechanic becomes most optimal, while Crusader falls to second.

Now look at class features. Crusader's main shtick is steely resolve, furious counterstrike and a mini paladin charisma synergy. Without turning or some sort of multiclass reason to think about Charisma, his class abilities are at the bottom of the barrel in usefulness. Swordsage, on the other hand, has superior class abilities, but falls for a close second. Wisdom synergy is a bit off (granted its to things that really count), but more useful than charisma. Initiative bonuses, wisdom to light armor ac, free identify, evasion, two boosts at once, bonuses for specific disciplines, enough hp and skills to mix it up, and the mass quantity of maneuvers known; sign me up please. The massive amount of maneuvers known doesn't compensate for the awesome amount of goodies a warblade has. Feats, changing weapon specific feats, Uncanny dodge, Int synergy that puts his skills up, and d12 hd.

[DragoonWraith]

Well, obviously, but they also get the most maneuvers known and readied from the most disciplines - does that balance out the recovery mechanic? Or are they generally weaker at maneuvers, or stronger at maneuvers, but their class features are stronger/weaker to compensate?

[sonofzeal]

I think it's generally considered that Swordsages have the worst recovery mechanic.
Oh, they do, no question about it. However, they also get far more Maneuvers Readied, which is big. Basically, a mid level Swordsage is unlikely to run out of Maneuvers, but is also unlikely to ever be doing the same one twice in a fight.

Personally, I think the balance in ToB is superb, and all three are pretty darn close to eachother. Crusaders get the best recovery mechanic, Swordsages get the best disciplines, and Warblades strike a nice balance between the two.

[Tavar]

There's alot of debate about which is better, though optimizers consider the Crusader recovery mechanic the best. After all, high optimization is all about action economy, and the Crusader's mechanic doesn't require an action at all. As to the random nature, one unknown poster said it best: A random choice off a list full of Awesome is still Awesome.

Swordsages are easily the worst. In fact, for awhile it was a joke that Swordsages didn't get a first level feat. Instead, they got Adaptive Style in it's place.

As for Rating the disiplines, that's hard to do except in somewhat broad categories. I think they're generally rated as follows(with no particular order within categories).
The Awesome
Devoted Spirit
Diamond Mind
White Raven(not quite sure about this one)

The Good
Setting Sun
Iron Heart
Shadow Blade
Tiger Claw

The Decent
Stone Dragon
Desert Flame

Switching between disciplines of the same level will not change power greatly, and even exchanging down won't hurt too much. Note that the Decent category is due to heavy restrictions(must remain on ground) or High levels of Immunity(Fire, the most common resistance/immunity in the game).

[Vangor]

Readying maneuvers Swordsages gain a slight advantage with being able to eclipse everyone with the amount of maneuvers known. Warblades are what I would consider the base of the three. Crusaders might be considered slightly worse due to randomly gaining access to maneuvers. All need only five minutes to ready a set of maneuvers, though, thus no difference with this.

Recovering, Crusaders might be considered the best simply because the action is free and constant, but still within the confines of the randomly gaining access to maneuvers. Warblades possess a simple way to recover all maneuvers with but a swift action and a flourish/regular attack, which I would say is probably the most reliable and preferable way. Swordsages suffer greatly for needing a full round action to recover a single maneuver.

I believe every class, though, has formidable features, but the Warblade wins, in my book, with dual stances, especially with additional feats. Swordsage has a powerful set which to me are preferable to the Warblade Battle features, especially the increased initiative and armor, but the Warblade still wins by his set being derived from Int. Crusader has rather powerful abilities, but those don't seem to grow fast enough, with Mettle being about all which saves them.

As for the Disciplines themselves, depends entirely what the purpose of your character is.

[Dienekes]

I always thought it was

Awesome
Devoted Spirit
Diamond Mind
Iron Heart
White Raven (In a highly martial party)

Good
Setting Sun
Shadow Blade
Tiger Claw

The Decent
White Raven (In a balanced or caster heavy party)
Stone Dragon
Desert Flame

But really they're all pretty decently balanced. And Desert Flame would be bumped up to Good if it wasn't based on Fire damage (which every creature and their grandma has resistance to) and Stone Dragon would be good if you could perform any of their maneuvers off the ground. Really, everyone needs to fly eventually, why they decided to tack on the necessity to be on ground and completely shut down anyone specializing in that discipline I'll never know.

[DragoonWraith]

OK, thanks, that's all very helpful.

How about class features, who has the best and who has the worst?

[Godskook]

Asking the hard questions now, are we?

Swordsages:
-Worst recovery method. So bad, a feat does the recovery aspect better.
-Most maneuvers known and readied.
-More stances
-Primarily a wis+dex or wis+str dependency
--Wisdom based class features
-Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, and Desert Wind are exclusive
-Has access to Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw
-6 disciplines total

Crusaders:
-Personally considered the best recovery method. Passive.
-Less control on maneuvers to use.
-Almost zero stat dependency for class skills to work. I.e. highly flexible.
-Well, con for Furious Counterstrike, but a tank wants con anyway.
-Exclusive access to Devoted Spirit
-Access to White Raven
-3 disciplines total

Warblade:
-Really good recover method; good enough to warrant argument with crusader.
-Full control of maneuvers readied, but otherwise comparable to Crusader here.
-Intelligence dependency gets rid of the 'dumb fighter' stereotype.
-Exclusive access to Iron Heart
-Access to Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, and White Raven
-5 disciplines total

That's the facts, but to really get into what balances what is gonna get sticky. Individual disciplines are generally closely balanced, with the exception of Desert Wind and Stone Dragon. I'd say trading disciplines 1-1 outside those two is pretty much fair game(it'll shouldn't be as bad as a wizard choosing a specialty). Sure, some are a little more potent or versatile, but not enough that it will break the game(See Mo9, plus the feats).

"For example, what if you had the class features of the Crusader, but the maneuvers, ready, and recovery mechanics of the Warblade - would it be better, equal, or worse than just straight Crusader"

I'd say slightly worse, and definitely worse if you're suggesting to sub out Devoted Spirit(the boy needs his healing gear). But then again, there's fans of the Warblade recovery system, so who knows.

[Dienekes]

OK, thanks, that's all very helpful.

How about class features, who has the best and who has the worst?

Crusader's the worst. Furious Counterstrike can be fun though.

Warblade and Swordsage, I'd generally give it to Swordsage. Though Warblade's capstone is amazing, the other 19 levels seems to generally favor the Swordsage with armor bonuses, focuses, and initiative bonuses. Warblade's are close though the extra feats never heart anyone and the bonuses to AOO's and against flat footers is fun

[Gorgondantess]

Swordsage has the best class features, probably, but crusader and warblade are quick on its tail; it really depends on what you want to be doing. Warblade gives a bunch of nice little numberic bonuses, and crusader is good for tanking. Swordsage has generally great stuff, though.
Of course, if you take it to level 20, warblade wins. The capstone is pretty great.

[Godskook]

Of course, if you take it to level 20, warblade wins. The capstone is pretty great.

Yes, yes it is. For capstones, Warblade is the only one that says "I'm worth not prestiging out".

[Draz74]

My ranking of the disciplines (which is very similar to what others have said):

The Awesome
White Raven (melee-heavy party)
Diamond Mind
Devoted Spirit

The Great
Tiger Claw
Iron Heart
Shadow Hand
Setting Sun
White Raven (not-melee-heavy party)

The Decent
Stone Dragon
Desert Wind

Disciplines within a category are listed in order, stronger to weaker. Also, I'm assuming no major Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics abuse; those two maneuvers can single-handedly break the game if the DM is overly generous about adjudicating them.


Class-feature wise, Warblades are clearly superior to Crusaders IMHO. The Crusader has to make up for the difference through superior recovery method and the power of Devoted Spirit.

Swordsages are the ones whose class features are tough to judge. That is, his actual class features are clearly the best of the three; but to make up for that, they come attached to a Medium BAB and d8 Hit Die, which are big handicaps for a melee character. (Though somehow the Swordsage actually manages to do so, between maneuvers, class features, skill points, and two good saves.)

If I could mix and match maneuvers with classes (but class features were still tied to Hit Dice/saves/BAB/etc, and discipline selections were still tied to recovery methods and so on), I don't think I could really come up with anything broken.

[Ernir]

In an offshoot of one of the threads on class tier systems, I saw a list which was the production of a simple vote by posters on which classes were the most powerful (can't find it now). The ToB classes were neck and neck, it was amazing to see on a scale that spanned the entire power spectrum.


For example, what if you had the class features of the Crusader, but the maneuvers, ready, and recovery mechanics of the Warblade - would it be better, equal, or worse than just straight Crusader?

Also, are each of the Disciplines equal? If you change the list of Disciplines a class has access to (a 1-to-1 swap), will the class remain at the same power level, or are some disciplines more powerful than others?

If we accept that the classes are similar in power, but that some have better recovery mechanics, it follows that straight-out switching the recovery mechanics would mess things up.

Swapping disciplines would have a less profound effect, I think, they are not fundamentally different the way the recovery mechanisms are. Especially since Stone Dragon (which is often considered at least among the weaker disciplines) is already common to all the classes. Still, taking Devoted Spirit away from the Crusader and giving him Desert Wind instead would make one sad Crusader if you ask me.


How about class features, who has the best and who has the worst?
If we say discipline access and recovery mechanics are not included, as they are being discussed seperately... in my opinion, Swordsage has the best, Warblade following closely, with the Crusader trailing.
The Crusader's delayed damage pool synergizes awesomely with the healing granted by Devoted Spirit, though, so the Crusader is not exactly cheated on that front the way the classes are written.

[Vangor]

I believe the only problem I have with Swordsage is beyond the AC Bonus, which is fairly terrific to possess to not hinder Balance and Tumble with heavier armor, the only Wisdom synergy truly specific to the Swordsage is Insightful Strikes, which is not that massive a bonus because this is only to those Strikes from the Discipline. The only reason I still prefer a Swordsage is I love Initiative, which is furthered by the ability to create a Dex/Wis centric character.

[Dienekes]

If we say discipline access and recovery mechanics are not included, as they are being discussed seperately... in my opinion, Swordsage has the best, Warblade following closely, with the Crusader trailing.
The Crusader's delayed damage pool synergizes awesomely with the healing granted by Devoted Spirit, though, so the Crusader is not exactly cheated on that front the way the classes are written.

That's one thing that should be pointed out. In other classes Devoted Spirit may be a bit too powerful. But for a Crusader his entire purpose is getting hit by everything. Not the same way that other fighter types are, his powers are literally charged by people beating on him. So Devoted Spirit makes up for his otherwise lack of abilities and actually when used together makes the class work as well as the other two.

[PId6]

Swordsages I'd say is definitely the weakest of the three, having medium bab and such a terrible recovery mechanism. Their class features are fairly front-loaded too, making them better when dipped rather than taken full out. They also tend to be very feat intensive, with Adaptive Style and Weapon Finesse being generally must-haves, while Shadow Blade and the Two-Weapon Fighting line usually being very desirable (or, if unarmed, monk feats like Snap Kick instead). The greater number of disciplines known is nice, but the exclusive ones (Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Desert Wind) aren't amazing except in support, and the warblade can do Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind better.

Warblade is, in my opinion, the best class, with full bab, d12 HD, 4+Int skills, good class features (with Int focus, the best mental stat), fairly good disciplines, and fantastic recovery. Warblade far surpasses the others damage-wise, and it can still be fairly versatile due to 4+Int skills and Int focus. In terms of pure power, the other two don't even come close.

Crusader is sort of in the middle. Unlike the warblade, the crusader is forced into the role of tank, with very little versatility outside of that. Its recovery mechanism is arguably better than the warblade's, but it doesn't get class features as good as the warblade or swordsage, and its list of disciplines is extremely limited. However, Devoted Spirit makes it a fantastic tank class, and it still has full bab and less feat problems than the swordsage. Swordsage wins in terms of versatility, but crusader is still much more of a powerhouse than swordsage.

[Draz74]

the only Wisdom synergy truly specific to the Swordsage is Insightful Strikes, which is not that massive a bonus because this is only to those Strikes from the Discipline.

Yeah, but ... it's entirely possible to build an effective Swordsage whose strikes all come from just two disciplines. And thus, who gains Wis to damage on every attack, ever.

(Diamond Mind/Tiger Claw is probably the most optimal combo. But ninja-types who focus on Shadow Hand/Setting Sun, dervish-types who focus on Desert Wind/Tiger Claw, or many other combos, are quite feasible. Even if such builds "splash" the occasional Strike from other disciplines, they're adding Wis to damage on most of their attacks.)

[dspeyer]

I would question crusader's superiority of warblade for recovery. Some maneuvers are situational. When a Dominate Monster spell comes your way, it isn't good enough to have Moment of Perfect Mind next turn.

Granted, MoPM isn't available to crusaders, but there's situational stuff that is. You want to start with a charge maneuver and then use in-the-middle-of-enemies maneuvers. If something with major DR shows up, you want your dr-bypassing maneuver -- otherwise its underpowered and you want something else.

Also, you can pick up additional schools by prestige-classing or martial-studying, so those maneuvers are still worth thinking about.

[Vangor]

Yeah, but ... it's entirely possible to build an effective Swordsage whose strikes all come from just two disciplines. And thus, who gains Wis to damage on every attack, ever.

If we are considering the Swordsage is already greater than level 14, this is probably accurate to where the minimal amount of non-chosen discipline strikes won't be notable enough; however, until level 14 I see this as not a significant enough bonus, especially as AoOs and a lack of excessive amounts of readied maneuvers mean basic attacks are a larger portion of the damage. Should be all attacks while in stance to offer greater Wisdom synergy was primarily my argument anyway.