PDA

View Full Version : [Pathfinder] Detailed Report - Overall Changes & Class Spotlight



Pages : 1 [2]

Tehnar
2010-01-15, 12:56 PM
Obligatory Saph's review of changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136890)

Personally I find pathfinder to be a good product even if I don't agree with some of the changes made. You also have the pathfinder reference document to look at so you can see the changes for yourself.

subject42
2010-01-15, 12:59 PM
The Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/) and Stock 3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) are both available online. Take a look at both and see how they compare for you and your group.

At the moment, both the game that I run and the game that I play have converted to Pathfinder. We use 3.5 sources liberally, with PF material taking precedence in the case of conflict.

Feats, spells, and items tend to migrate cleanly. Classes are a bit messy to convert and tend to end up a bit weak compared to PF core classes.

It's been my experience in both games that martial characters still aren't on par with full casters, but they are much better off than they were in straight 3.5. Rogues and rangers, specifically, get a nice boost.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-15, 12:59 PM
I really don't see the point of paying for Pathfinder. They have an SRD here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/), which you can look at. It has all the rules you need.

I don't really recommend playing Pathfinder straight. Instead, though, you might consider looking through there to find the things that you do like, and incorporate those into your game. Some of the changes are good, others are less so, almost everyone will agree.

The problem is that almost no one agrees on which are good and which are bad...

Penitent
2010-01-15, 01:04 PM
Well OP, if you already have 3.5 books, you don't want Pathfinder.

It's a rewrite of the core books and that's mostly it right now.

If you want more material, you want 3.5 regardless.

Grommen
2010-01-15, 01:18 PM
Pathfinder good. Our group likes is well. And it's not very hard to convert and change things from WTC's 3.5 D&D to Pathfinder's game. It is more like a 3.75 version than a total retooling. The melee classes got some love, the power curve is jacked up a bit as well. So too are the monsters. We are really loveing the CMB and CMD (Special Attact options like Trip, Bull Rush, grapple, etc.) One simple and easy to remember mechanic, it's very nice.

However that said a lot of the game was completely unchanged from 3.5. I was looking up the rules for a Bastard sword the other day and it is word for word (even the bad grammar) the same.

Not too many rule books out for it right now. Only been out sense September and Pazio is a far smaller company than the juggernought that is Wizards/Hasbro, so it's not coming out in monthly splat books.

If you buy the Core rule book, get the PDF too. It's a text search-able PDF with dozens of tabs and stuff. You can look up things very quickly. Unless you were playing 3.5 with dozens of splat books the Core Rule book for Pathfinder will give you nearly every option you'll ever wish for, all the base classes, prestige classes, feats etc. You'll just go nutz.

Grommen
2010-01-15, 01:24 PM
I really don't see the point of paying for Pathfinder. They have an SRD here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/), which you can look at. It has all the rules you need.



#1 companies need support to stay in business; ergo they make, you buy. Aside from that, books are kool. They have pretty pictures and all that junk. Now if you don't like the product then by all means don't buy it. If you do like the SRD and you do like the game, you need to eventually set aside the money for the book or PDF. That way the people putting out the material get to eat, make the house payment, and make more books for you.

oxybe
2010-01-15, 01:59 PM
#1 companies need support to stay in business; ergo they make, you buy. Aside from that, books are kool. They have pretty pictures and all that junk. Now if you don't like the product then by all means don't buy it. If you do like the SRD and you do like the game, you need to eventually set aside the money for the book or PDF. That way the people putting out the material get to eat, make the house payment, and make more books for you.

to add to this, not everyone has a laptop they can bring with them to game night. the SRD is convenient for those who have access to it when it matters, but for everyone else, it's a reference tool at best.

i would never drag my case+monitor with me just so i could look up the SRD or some web book, so i make a point of not using material in game from books i don't actually own, if only because i HATE borrowing books from other people.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-15, 02:07 PM
Yeah, some of us like the feel of a nice weighty tome, a tome whose hard drive never fails, and whose battery never runs out. The screen is easy to read in almost all light conditions, no back light admittedly though, boots up instantly and has an intuitive interface involving TurnPage technology.
And what a weighty tome it is indeed. You could shield bash with the thing!

subject42
2010-01-15, 02:23 PM
Yeah, some of us like the feel of a nice weighty tome, a tome whose hard drive never fails, and whose battery never runs out.
....
And what a weighty tome it is indeed. You could shield bash with the thing!

Be careful with this tome. It's weighty enough that the spine is a bit fragile.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-15, 02:43 PM
Be careful with this tome. It's weighty enough that the spine is a bit fragile.
Yeah, I've noticed that too. Still, I would rather have a book then a PDF or even a printout.

bansidhe
2010-01-15, 03:11 PM
Thanks for all the help ,its looking pretty good too me at the moment,mainly because all the 3.5 stuff I own is on pdf and getting/finding hardcopies is a pain and expensive![uk]

This looks ok for me cos I can mix and match, and mainly I can find it easily every month too buy some more!without worrying if somebody else on ebay etc has bought it first!

Ill mainly be playing with my partner and 3 daughters at first as finding a group in London is far harder than you,d think![anyone in harrow playing just about anything drop me a pm!]

Now all I need is too find someone to dm me :D

Thanks again for the help ,Im getting too know that this forum is good for advice! :)

pres_man
2010-01-15, 03:12 PM
Of course, you know, they have these new pieces of technology you can hook up to your desktop computer. It is called a printer. You can then print out the material that is relevant to your character without needing to haul the desktop computer around. And without batteries even. Isn't technology amazing.

oxybe
2010-01-15, 03:23 PM
Of course, you know, they have these new pieces of technology you can hook up to your desktop computer. It is called a printer. You can then print out the material that is relevant to your character without needing to haul the desktop computer around. And without batteries even. Isn't technology amazing.

yay, i've got my cleric's one page level progression! now for his... spell... list... crap.

and that's why i hate printouts.

you effectively end up with a binder full of looseleafs/punched hole sheets that effectively give you a few parts of the book but you're never really sure which parts you will actually use during play and which ones might be missing. one of our players did that for his marshall, and he still wound up borrowing books from everyone every game.

a printout can only go so far until you realize you just printed out most of the book.

Penitent
2010-01-15, 03:34 PM
Thanks for all the help ,its looking pretty good too me at the moment,mainly because all the 3.5 stuff I own is on pdf and getting/finding hardcopies is a pain and expensive![uk]

This looks ok for me cos I can mix and match, and mainly I can find it easily every month too buy some more!without worrying if somebody else on ebay etc has bought it first!

Ill mainly be playing with my partner and 3 daughters at first as finding a group in London is far harder than you,d think![anyone in harrow playing just about anything drop me a pm!]

Now all I need is too find someone to dm me :D

Thanks again for the help ,Im getting too know that this forum is good for advice! :)

Are you confused? Pathfinder is not what you think it is apparently.

You cannot mix and match, and you cannot buy more. It's just one book. It has the same material as another book you own.

subject42
2010-01-15, 03:42 PM
You cannot mix and match, and you cannot buy more. It's just one book. It has the same material as another book you own.

Not to nitpick, but they have released a beastiary as well.

bansidhe
2010-01-15, 03:57 PM
Nope,not confused,read all the above and yes I do own it but on pdf.
Not only do I not want too print it out cos it looks rubbish and is fragile, the books prob cost less than the ink!

Ive found the offical website and on reading through it looks ok and much easier too find /buy than trawling through loads of ads and hoping it,ll still be there when i need it.

There does seem too be lots available and a connected cardgame ,which I and my family will enjoy.

Its not 4th ed.so theres no chance of finding iridescent foil booster packs suddenly all the rage.

All of the above means im buying it!

Thanks again all :)

Another_Poet
2010-01-15, 04:09 PM
Pathfinder is awesome. I flippin' love Pathfinder. If you want to try something new with your 3.5 group then it is worth getting. The classes are more fun, some of then rules are nicer and it opens the gateway to all of the awesome Pathfinder adventure paths.

If however you are totally happy with 3.5 + house rules there's no need to switch.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-15, 04:31 PM
#1 companies need support to stay in business; ergo they make, you buy. Aside from that, books are kool. They have pretty pictures and all that junk. Now if you don't like the product then by all means don't buy it. If you do like the SRD and you do like the game, you need to eventually set aside the money for the book or PDF. That way the people putting out the material get to eat, make the house payment, and make more books for you.
Well, OK, I guess what it comes down to is: I don't think the material is worth their price. There are a few rules I like, several I don't. A lot of people seem to feel the same way. If you really want to play the whole thing straight, and really like all of their changes, yes, you should compensate them for their effort. However, I simply don't. On some level... I don't really think Pathfinder deserves the money.

Mathis
2010-01-15, 06:57 PM
Me and the group I play with find Pathfinder a much more fun system than 3.5. It doesn't matter if you already have a 3.5 library, everything you have from 3.5 easily fits into the Pathfinder system.
This is untrue.

Show me something to back that up and we can talk again. I understand that my definition of easy and yours might differ ofcourse. We always make the rules take the backseat for the story and the rule of cool. No exception except in those cases where the filthy powergamers and rule-nazis try to be better than everyone else.






Pathfinder is basically normal 3.5 with the classes' powerlevel pumped up.
Druid got nerfed. Druid got nerfed.

Yes, they did, druid got "nerfed". If you did not notice the other classes getting better though I suggest you re-read the classes chapter.




The melee classes are now capable of going toe to toe with the casters when it comes to damage which makes it more fun to make a balanced group for us who find the "HULK SMASH" aspect of gaming interesting.

What? Melee damage has never been a problem. Melee options have been the problem. A charger or ubercharger can do thousands of damage a round, yet they are still inferior to people who can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up multiple times a day.

The ubercharger is just one option, which I'd rather call abuse or even powergaming instead of using the word option. And yes, I feel powergaming is worse than abuse. Play the game for the stories, not the bloody rules or else fairies will die.

What I meant by that post was to say that the melee classes have a greater chance of not being outshined by the casters as was the case in 3.5e. If you want to discuss whether or not the melee classes are better in Pathfinder than in 3.5 I suggest we continue in PMs as this thread is for helping bansidhe making his or hers decision about buying the book.

I was simply giving him my humble opinion, based on my limited experience and knowledge on the game using these rules. If you want an objective essay discussing the balancing between 3.5e classes and pathfinder classes however I'm sure you can find that elsewhere.



This also means you don't have to have a wizard in the party to kill those really, really tough monsters.

I suspect that this is untrue, because there are not enough differences between 3.5e and Pathfinder as far as I can tell.

Does that "I suspect that this is untrue" part mean you have not tried? Read the new smite rules. Personally I hope they change those. Ofcourse, you could always be intelligent about it and change the rules to fit your own game, the rulebook is never set in stone, it's a guideline.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-15, 07:02 PM
Paladin alignment restrictions still exist and still suck.

that is all.

Grommen
2010-01-15, 11:27 PM
Well, OK, I guess what it comes down to is: I don't think the material is worth their price. There are a few rules I like, several I don't. A lot of people seem to feel the same way. If you really want to play the whole thing straight, and really like all of their changes, yes, you should compensate them for their effort. However, I simply don't. On some level... I don't really think Pathfinder deserves the money.

Fair nuff. That is why their are several games out their.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 01:22 AM
Are you confused? Pathfinder is not what you think it is apparently.

You cannot mix and match, and you cannot buy more. It's just one book. It has the same material as another book you own.

This is not true. There are also a number of setting books in addition to the bestiary. In addition, the core book basically takes the place of both the 3.5 DMG and Phb.

Now, mixing and matching can be done...it just takes some work. It's simpler than trying to mix and match 3.5 and 4e, though. Much simpler.

I won't say PF is perfect by any means...but it's not quite as problematic as you make out.

Pharaoh is correct, though, in that you still need casters to kill the truly tough mobs. Heck, even at early levels, it's good to have them around if you run into incorporeal stuff(have already been in such situations in a Rise of the Runelords campaign, where only casters could contribute)

Ravens_cry
2010-01-16, 05:02 AM
Paladin alignment restrictions still exist and still suck.

that is all.
It is hard to be a champion of the Light. It is hard to stand for what is righteous and true. With great power comes great responsibility. You are not merely a soldier in your gods army, you are an instrument of Their will.
I wish they had added the Unearthed Arcana options, but that's the only changes I personally would make.
By being a paladin, or for that matter a druid, barbarian, monk or cleric, you have chosen a narrower path.
Why should that be easy, why shouldn't it be a challenge?

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 08:34 AM
Paladin alignment restrictions still exist and still suck.

that is all.

When you choose to play a paladin, your DM has the freedom to tell you that he'd rather you didn't.

If he doesn't tell you that paladins aren't suitable, then they should give you fair warning when there is a decent chance that you will fall for some reason if you make certain decisions.

The problem is the Phylactery of Faithfulness. If that's still around, there's still a problem (a magic item that gives you a warning when you're about to run into a situation that could threaten your standing with your deity implies that you need that item to have fair warning).

Used correctly, they make sure that the Champions of the Light aren't abusing their position, and they provide nice opportunities for roleplaying.

Removing a class because certainly DMs suck is not exactly the best idea in the world.

Epinephrine
2010-01-16, 08:50 AM
Just wanted to point out that Quicken spell doesn't increase the casting time of spontaneous spell casting in Pathfinder.

This should really be mentioned on the Sorcerer changes, as it makes this metamagic a no-brainer for all sorcerers. Of course, this is a common house rule, but it's nice that it's explicitly stated in the PF rules.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-16, 11:34 AM
I'm not saying it has to be easy. However the Paladin should allow ANY good instead of just lawful and you shouldn't fall just for lying (sometimes it's necessary)

Starbuck_II
2010-01-16, 11:37 AM
Um, you don't fall for lying: only gross violations count.
Doing it once or twice can't make you fall by RAW (DMs might disagree but that is what it says).

Mystic Muse
2010-01-16, 11:44 AM
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she act with honor (not lying not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)"

Starbuck_II
2010-01-16, 11:56 AM
Wow, never noticed that Pathfinder changed the falling rules to be more strict.
No more gross violation: any violation...

In 3.5: you could lie, steal, etc and not fall by the Rules because only gross violations made you fall (you had leeway). So if it is important that you steal (you could) or lie (you could).

Pathfinder: says you can't or fall.

Why the change?

Mystic Muse
2010-01-16, 12:00 PM
yeah, Pathfinder may have made several of the Paladins abilities better but their code gimps them so much they aren't even worth playing in a lot of groups.

Hey remember Starbuck, these guys are professionals, not people who know what they're doing like you or me.:smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 12:02 PM
On the flip side, a paladin cannot fall permanently any more, so they're hardly gimped at all. They just can't use their class features for a few hours if they break the code (even if they break the code by raping the king's daughters while playing a guitar solo and singing a prayer to Erythnul, god of slaughter).

Also, lying is an example of not acting honourably.

It's still up to the DM what counts as dishonourable (you can also say nothing if you want - you don't have to stop others from lying on your behalf).

It's just one word omitted. I don't think any of the PF designers even noticed

Matthew
2010-01-16, 08:21 PM
Yeah, it is basically a bit of an alternative Forgotten Realms, but a bit more heavy on the pulp fiction roots. Worth a look.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 08:41 PM
Forgotten Realms. Except with gods that never actually act in any way, more grimdarkness (as if FR and other 3.5 settings weren't bleak and horrifyng enough) and, arguably, less sense. Otherwise, it is the same stuff with NPCs and beings interacting with the world and each other as if none of them had CR greater than 5, even though it is hard to spit without hitting someone with CR 15+. And countries that are ripped off from Earth cultures and randomly dropped on the world's surface without much, if any, thought. And societies that cannot decide, whether life in them corresponds to the standards of XV century or of late XIX.

This actually describes it pretty well, yeah.

It's ok, but it's really not anything all that unusual. I give Eberron a lot more props for being thought out.