things in the rules that make you wonder what they thought they were doing?

[oxinabox]

Do you ever see a line in a rulebook that makes you wonder: "What one earth were the writers thinking?"

for example:
in the polymorph spell:

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further).

I mean really, what is this about?
I don't get it, i've heard i justified by that if you change forms you won't change into one that is injured, but that makes no sense, if they were going for that then why don't you get autohealed to max hp? (other than that break the game)

I mean polymorph really needs more good, it's just way to underpowered.
without some other side benifit noone would ever cast it, as it would be too wasteful of there actions

This makes polymorph a wizard healing spell.
Preerrata, baleful polymorph would also have had this healing effect.

Some things in rules just make no sense.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I mean polymorph really needs more good, it's just way to underpowered.
without some other side benifit noone would ever cast it, as it would be too waisteful of there actions

Erm... isn't the Polymorph line generally considered one of the more abusable spells in the game?

[Eldariel]

Polymorph isn't just an overlay; you actually change a body into another body. This is why you can fix some of the damage to that body during the shift, but you cannot heal them to full since there's only so much alteration you can do.

But yeah, it basically boils down to you making the body more whole along the transformation. Really, as it's a true transformation, I don't see it making any sense if you could NOT fix the body; I mean, you can change form but you take care to make sure the new form has the same cuts and bruises as the old one? WTF is that all about?


And mechanically, of course tying Heal to an already-broken level 4 arcane spell would be broken hence why you cannot heal yourself to full (though that's easy enough to think as a limit of the shapechange; how much you can alter on the original body in the end). Equivalent-level Cure spells are equally limited. But yeah, Polymorph is the closest thing to arcane Cure-spells outside Light of Venya.

[AmberVael]

Erm... isn't the Polymorph line generally considered one of the more abusable spells in the game?

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic...
(At least, I really hope he was)

[Starbuck_II]

Candle of Invocation. What guy thought a 9th level spell anyone can use should be cheaper than scroll of a 9th level spell?

"Dude, we should let people call forth like stuff with a candle"
"Don't we already have a spell called Gate?"
"Perfect, now we need to lower the cost. Gate costs too much."
"Sure, but isn't that abusive?"
"Dude, don't be gay"
"Fine, I'll make it cheap"

Yeah, that seems like them.

[Eldariel]

Candle of Invocation. What guy thought a 9th level spell anyone can use should be cheaper than scroll of a 9th level spell?

"Dude, we should let people call forth like stuff with a candle"
"Don't we already have a spell called Gate?"
"Perfect, now we need to lower the cost. Gate costs too much."
"Sure, but isn't that abusive?"
"Dude, don't be gay"
"Fine, I'll make it cheap"

Yeah, that seems like them.

Let's not forget about the guy who designed Gate in the first place. I can only imagine:
"It's not cool for spells to have downsides."
"There's this Gate-spell; you can call pretty much anything, but it isn't automatically your bitch so some people might be annoyed!"
"Can't have that! How about this: "The creature you call unquestioningly obeys you for rounds equal to your CL if it has less than twice your HD"?"
"Yeah, that sounds GREAT! Calling Angels and Demons totally should make them your slaves!"
"Dude, doesn't this mean you can just call a Pit Fiend and force him to grant you a Wish without paying the 5000 XP price?"
"Oh c'mon, you need to know that Pit Fiends exist first!"
"...isn't that like DC 30 Knowledge: The Planes that a level 17 Wizard makes on -10?"
"...SHUT UP, IT IS A FLAWLESS PLAN!"

[Fax Celestis]

Let's not forget about the guy who designed Gate in the first place. I can only imagine:
"It's not cool for spells to have downsides."
"There's this gate; you can call pretty much anything, but it isn't automatically your bitch so some people might be annoyed!"
"Can't have that! How about this: "The creature you call unquestioningly obeys you for rounds equal to your CL if it has less than twice your HD"?"
"Yeah, that sounds GREAT! Calling Angels and Demons totally should make them your slaves!"
"Dude, doesn't this mean you can just call a Pit Fiend and force him to grant you a Wish without paying the 5000 XP price?"
"Oh c'mon, you need to know that Pit Fiends exist first!"
"...isn't that like DC 30 Knowledge: The Planes that a level 17 Wizard makes on -10?"
"...SHUT UP, IT IS A FLAWLESS PLAN!"

Ahahahahaha, exactly.

[dougch]

the statement in the draconomicon that says metabreath feats can be stacked was quite a silly load of crap imo

[Godskook]

Let's not forget about the guy who designed Gate in the first place. I can only imagine:
"It's not cool for spells to have downsides."
"There's this Gate-spell; you can call pretty much anything, but it isn't automatically your bitch so some people might be annoyed!"
"Can't have that! How about this: "The creature you call unquestioningly obeys you for rounds equal to your CL if it has less than twice your HD"?"
"Yeah, that sounds GREAT! Calling Angels and Demons totally should make them your slaves!"
"Dude, doesn't this mean you can just call a Pit Fiend and force him to grant you a Wish without paying the 5000 XP price?"
"Oh c'mon, you need to know that Pit Fiends exist first!"
"...isn't that like DC 30 Knowledge: The Planes that a level 17 Wizard makes on -10?"
"...SHUT UP, IT IS A FLAWLESS PLAN!"

"Ah man, I just ran the numbers for developing epic spells. They're available immediately, but you can't actually make a useful one for another 50 levels."
"I know, you know that chain-gate trick we found? Let's allow that to cut the cost back down to nothing, because if we learned anything from gate, its that spells shouldn't have downside!"
"Brilliant!"
"Hey, where's the guy who tries to use logic in these discussions?"
"We had him fired."

[Kallisti]

Truenamer. Just...truenamer. The entire class. No, the entire chapter. I honestly, and in all seriousness, think the playtesters must have been drunk. The worst part is that all the truename monsters have massive racial bonuses to Truespeak. So the designers realized that the DCs were so high Truenamers couldn't accomplish anything, and instead of fixing the DCs they just gave the monsters arbitrary bonuses to help them survive.

[Thespianus]

The Tumble skill:

"Soo, say I wanna Tumble next to a guy without provoking AoO. What should the DC be?"
"15"
"15? A static DC? That's silly. It means it's just as easy to Tumble by a level 1 wizard as it is to Tumble by a level 20 Fighter?"
"Yeah."
"Yeah? What are you talking about? It's stupid!"
"Yeah. This way, it gets easier to remember, you see."
"But..But.. can't we re-hire that guy who thought logic was a good idea?"
"You're fired too."

[Eldariel]

If talking about skills, let's try a few ones:
- KNOWLEDGES!

"Hey, y'know those Knowledge-skills? We should somehow determine how difficult it is to know things about creatures."
"I have a splendid idea! Let's make the check based on their HD!"
"Perfect! This way the DC scales as you level so you'll always have a barely sufficient check for knowing the names of the creatures you're fighting!"
"Hey guys...aren't you forgetting something? Like, the stronger and more influential the creatures are, the more likely they are to have written works on them and the more likely you are to have heard legend of them..."
"WHAT DO YOU MEAN?"
"Are you honestly telling me you think everyone knows what Wyrmling Dragons are, but nobody knows what the bigger Dragons are? Ah, look, a Wyrmling Dragon! It's red and breathes fire and flies! But that...OH MY GOD, THAT IS SO BIG! AND IT HAS WINGS AND IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME SIZE AND IT'S RED. I WONDER WHAT IT IS!"
"...throw him into the pit!"


Oh, and don't forget the other part: FIGHTERS DO NOT LEARN! THEY CANNOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE FIGHTING! AND NOBODY SHOULD HAVE ENOUGH SKILLPOINTS TO ACTUALLY BE COMPETENT IN THE THINGS AN ARCHETYPAL MEMBER OF THEIR CLASS IS!

Like, Fighters shouldn't be able to perceive things, let alone learn about the monsters they fight. No, Wizards should tell them what they are fighting so they can swing their sword more efficiently! That is the way it is!

[Gralamin]

I personally enjoy:

Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot step.

Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
By RAW, if you are not using some sort of nonstandard mode of movement that saids you can move up to part of your speed, then you must use a move action to move your entire speed - no more or less. Better be careful with where you waste your squares.

Of course, this is easily fixed by putting in "Up to your speed" instead.

[Aron Times]

These and more are the reasons why I switched to 4E. 4E may throw realism out the window, but it makes up for it with an amazing amount of internal consistency.

In the end, what most people want in a fantasy story is consistency. No matter how unrealistic it is, as long as it makes sense within the context of the story/game/whatever, most people will accept it, i.e. a willing suspension of disbelief.

[Starbuck_II]

These and more are the reasons why I switched to 4E. 4E may throw realism out the window, but it makes up for it with an amazing amount of internal consistency.

In the end, what most people want in a fantasy story is consistency. No matter how unrealistic it is, as long as it makes sense within the context of the story/game/whatever, most people will accept it, i.e. a willing suspension of disbelief.

Nah, it has its weird cases as well.
Archetypes that don't fit like Tieflings are better as Fey Warlock (instead of Infernal).
It is hard to tell whether the Infernal Warlock was made the right stat or the Tiefling was made the wrong one.
Granted there is a feat Hellfire Blood making Tieflings better at it as a work around.

[Fax Celestis]

In the end, what most people want in a fantasy story is consistency. No matter how unrealistic it is, as long as it makes sense within the context of the story/game/whatever, most people will accept it, i.e. a willing suspension of disbelief.

'o_o`

Could've fooled me.

[Lamech]

The 3.5 rules for falling.

"Hey how quickly should people fall?"
"Hmm... lets go with a max of 50ft a second"
"What about when your getting upt to that?
"25 ft a second first round"
"Umm... dudes... thats really slow..."
"Nahh... thats quick"
"No really I took physics, thats painfully slow"
"Ohh god your worse than the logic guy. Fired!"


And the rules for jumping...
"Altright sweet we got a balanced system for jumping"
"Crap... what if some one jumps farther then they can move"
"Make them wait to come down"
"Umm... guys? You realize that if someone can only move 30ft/round they'll float?"
"God Damnit! Fired! Where does this logic keep coming from..."

[Sliver]

And the rules for jumping...
"Altright sweet we got a balanced system for jumping"
"Crap... what if some one jumps farther then they can move"
"Make them wait to come down"
"Umm... guys? You realize that if someone can only move 30ft/round they'll float?"
"God Damnit! Fired! Where does this logic keep coming from..."

Uhh.. No.. The turn rules are just to make it easy to manage.. In the game's world that just doesn't happen.. The characters don't do battle in turns and do nothing (except AoO and such) on other's turn, it all happens together but managed in turns to make it easier.. No real floating.

This thing comes up so much you could think people actually think that real people battle in turns.

[Gralamin]

Uhh.. No.. The turn rules are just to make it easy to manage.. In the game's world that just doesn't happen.. The characters don't do battle in turns and do nothing (except AoO and such) on other's turn, it all happens together but managed in turns to make it easier.. No real floating.

This thing comes up so much you could think people actually think that real people battle in turns.

It's more that if you have a 30 feet movement speed, and jump 40 feet, you are in the air for at least 6 seconds. Now, It's been a while since I've done any physics, but last time I checked, falling from 10 feet (Horizontal velocity does not matter here) take a lot less time then 6 seconds.

[Kaldrin]

I wonder about AC all the time...

[oxybe]

Vancian casting.

i know the reasoning behind it, but i can't understand why it's been core for so long. i guess nothing says "powerful wizard" like "Magic Missile! Sleep! Grease! crossbow... crossbow... crossbow... crossbow... crossbow..." :smalltongue:
-------------------------------------
an as the great wizard "Elanicalius" told us, it doesn't matter if you spent 100 years learning your first spell, it's possible to coast through a few weeks of bard camp and then retroactively learn magic by looking over the wizard's shoulder.

the wizard does all the hard work, you get two weeks of sitting under a tree, surrounded by women, strumming a guitar, and singing about how you're sensitive due to your fine voice.

[Bayar]

Do you ever see a line in a rulebook that makes you wonder: "What one earth were the writers thinking?"

for example:
in the polymorph spell:


I mean really, what is this about?
I don't get it, i've heard i justified by that if you change forms you won't change into one that is injured, but that makes no sense, if they were going for that then why don't you get autohealed to max hp? (other than that break the game)

I mean polymorph really needs more good, it's just way to underpowered.
without some other side benifit noone would ever cast it, as it would be too waisteful of there actions

This makes polymorph a wizard healing spell.
Preerrata, baleful polymorph would also have had this healing effect.

Some things in rules just make no sense.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!! I cant stop laughing, even though I know you said it in a totally sarcastic way !

[deuxhero]

If you start drowning with negetive hit points you can actually get healed... but there is no way to stop drowning.

[Bayar]

If you start drowning with negetive hit points you can actually get healed... but there is no way to stop drowning.

Yes there is. Cure minor wounds before your next turn. You are now at 1 HP.

[Gralamin]

Yes there is. Cure minor wounds before your next turn. You are now at 1 HP.

Err no, that does not stop you from drowning.

[Oslecamo]

Like, Fighters shouldn't be able to perceive things, let alone learn about the monsters they fight. No, Wizards should tell them what they are fighting so they can swing their sword more efficiently! That is the way it is!

Actually, yes. A fighter doesn't give a damn about what the details of what he's fighting. The wizard is the book nerd who wants to breed and/or enslave monsters and has a thousand diferent attacks all based on bizzarre conditions, so he needs to know the monster details. The fighter just needs to know how to swing his pointy stick, because he knows every monster has limited HP, and can thus be eventually hacked to pieces.

Plus, if you need spot ranks to spot the tarrasque/giant dragon in the horizon, you're doing something very wrong.

[Diamondeye]

The absurd number of feats needed for practical TWF in 3.x

TWF in any form in 4.0

[nightwyrm]

Actually, yes. A fighter doesn't give a damn about what the details of what he's fighting. The wizard is the book nerd who wants to breed and/or enslave monsters and has a thousand diferent attacks all based on bizzarre conditions, so he needs to know the monster details. The fighter just needs to know how to swing his pointy stick, because he knows every monster has limited HP, and can thus be eventually hacked to pieces.

Plus, if you need spot ranks to spot the tarrasque/giant dragon in the horizon, you're doing something very wrong.

I guess that's true in a sickening sort of way in 3e. Once you build a fighter a certain way, he's only good at that certain thing. It doesn't matter what he's facing, the fighter can only use his special trick. What's the point in knowing what he's fighting when he can't change his tricks depending on the enemy.

[Violet Octopus]

Making obesity a "Vile Feat", to be taken by evil characters :smallconfused:. Generally, making body modification into evil feats. Oh, and BDSM. Thanks, Book of Vile Darkness.

3.0 psionics. Haven't read it, but just hearing about psionic disciplines that use your Str modifier as the casting stat makes it sound hilarious. Although, my friend misses psionic combat.

The anthropomorphic bat in Savage Species. Flight and a Wis bonus for +0 LA?

Neanderthals in a setting where humans were divinely created.

Many things about the shadowcaster, but the #1 thing that irks me is how it gains no new mysteries/day apart from the new ones it learns, apart from the two levels where it gets a big spike in uses/day. It's so discontinuous.

[TheCountAlucard]

Err no, that does not stop you from drowning.Actually, IIRC, someone can stop you drowning via a DC 15 Heal check...

My memory's not perfect, though. I think I saw it in Frostburn.

Also, the rules for wielding a really big weapon.

"Let's allow people to wield inappropriately-sized weapons, as long as they could still conceivably use it in both hands!"
"Sounds good, but we'll have to penalize them for it!"

Later...

"Hmm, what if we made a feat that represented a character having trained in the art of wielding inappropriately-sized weapons, to negate the penalty?"
"Sounds good, but we'll have to penalize them for it!"

[John Campbell]

Making obesity a "Vile Feat", to be taken by evil characters :smallconfused:. Generally, making body modification into evil feats. Oh, and BDSM. Thanks, Book of Vile Darkness.
And, on the flip side, making it perfectly fine for so-called "Exalted" creatures to do evil things and use techniques that have been arbitrarily designated as "Evil", so long as they use the Exalted versions, which are just the same except that they've been arbitrarily designated as "Good".

BoVD and BoED both need to die in a fire.

Actually, the alignment system in general needs to die in a fire. It isn't good for anything but starting stupid arguments on Internet forums.


Neanderthals in a setting where humans were divinely created.
They were the public beta.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Actually, the alignment system in general needs to die in a fire. It isn't good for anything but starting stupid arguments on Internet forums.

Sort of like these sentences?


On topic:
Jermlaine and all the anthro creatures
Sarrukh
Drowning
Anything that touches on sexuality
Diplomacy (Naberius makes the Diplomancer's job so much easier, as does a dip in Warlock)

[Thespianus]

I guess that's true in a sickening sort of way in 3e. Once you build a fighter a certain way, he's only good at that certain thing. It doesn't matter what he's facing, the fighter can only use his special trick. What's the point in knowing what he's fighting when he can't change his tricks depending on the enemy.
Well, at least he can change his weapons if he knows the monster is vulnerable to silver or cold iron. Switching weapons is the fighter's OTHER trick. :smallwink:

[oxybe]

Actually, the alignment system in general needs to die in a fire. It isn't good for anything but starting stupid arguments on Internet forums.i have to agree on this one. here's where i wish i could remember where i found this "motivator" pic i have on my HDD

ALIGNMENT THREADS
Because questions of morality that have baffled philosophers and caused holy wars can be easily resolved with a system of nine categories in a fantasy game designed for ages twelve and up.

[Berserk Monk]

The lifespan of elves and their -2 to con. Con represents health so should they live a far shorter life?

[Sinfire Titan]

the statement in the draconomicon that says metabreath feats can be stacked was quite a silly load of crap imo

It makes DFAs very easy to optimize and makes noncaster dragons a legitimate threat to the players. A tanking Dragon isn't a serious threat to a melee character or three. Sure, it will hurt a lot, but they are fairly easy to kill even if you weren't expecting them.



Neanderthals in a setting where humans were divinely created.
They were the public beta.


:smallbiggrin:

Wait, Human Beings are not directly related to Neanderthals...

[mikeejimbo]

It makes DFAs very easy to optimize and makes noncaster dragons a legitimate threat to the players. A tanking Dragon isn't a serious threat to a melee character or three. Sure, it will hurt a lot, but they are fairly easy to kill even if you weren't expecting them.

Deterministic Finite Automata?

Oh, right. Dragon Fire Adept. Too much comp sci for me.

[Fax Celestis]

It makes DFAs very easy to optimize and makes noncaster dragons a legitimate threat to the players. A tanking Dragon isn't a serious threat to a melee character or three. Sure, it will hurt a lot, but they are fairly easy to kill even if you weren't expecting them.

Xorvintaal dragon + metabreath feats = legitimate, interesting draconic threat.

[oxybe]

do humans in D&D actually have a creation myth?

i can't remember one in particular since humans don't have a father deity (like corellon to the elves & moradin to the dwarves). i remember vaguely hearing of one, in a splatbook but even then the splatbook refers to this myth as sketchy at best and just something propagated by his faithfuls (Zaus? Zaeus? i'm sure it starts with a "Z". he's essentially a human supremacist who looks down on the other races).

[Kylarra]

do humans in D&D actually have a creation myth?

i can't remember one in particular since humans don't have a father deity (like corellon to the elves & moradin to the dwarves). i remember vaguely hearing of one, in a splatbook but even then the splatbook refers to this myth as sketchy at best and just something propagated by his faithfuls (Zaus? Zaeus? i'm sure it starts with a "Z". he's essentially a human supremacist who looks down on the other races).
LONG LIVE LORD ZARUS

[Thespianus]

Wait, Human Beings are not directly related to Neanderthals...

They realized the Neanderthals wouldn't evolve enough to make it to RC1, so they bought in Humans from a 3rd party ISV. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Actually, yes. A fighter doesn't give a damn about what the details of what he's fighting. The wizard is the book nerd who wants to breed and/or enslave monsters and has a thousand diferent attacks all based on bizzarre conditions, so he needs to know the monster details. The fighter just needs to know how to swing his pointy stick, because he knows every monster has limited HP, and can thus be eventually hacked to pieces.

Maybe on the tabletop, but in-game, it's very different techniques you use to fight a Hydra than you use against a Gibbering Mouther or a Lich. Obviously a Fighter learns how his enemies attack and how to best hit 'em; he's getting whacked by them so he knows it all from experience.

Or he should, anyways. And not every Fighter is an idiot; you can ask Roy about that. By the rules tho, every Fighter pretty much is an idiot 'cause even if you have insane Int, Knowledges are still cross-class. And the Wizard cares about totally different things so his Knowledges are unlike to be of any practical use, logically, to the Fighter beyond which anti-energy vest to wear vs. which Dragon; he cares little for how thick a skin is or how much punishment a creature can take. He's much more interesting in how difficult they are to affect with spells and what type of magic works best against them.


Plus, if you need spot ranks to spot the tarrasque/giant dragon in the horizon, you're doing something very wrong.

Over 300' away, by RAW, a Colossal creature would require ranks in Spot to see consistently. Another silly thing btw; the range penalties on Spot are off the whack.

[Sinfire Titan]

They realized the Neanderthals wouldn't evolve enough to make it to RC1, so they bought in Humans from a 3rd party ISV. :smallbiggrin:

Haha! Oh this is rich.


Xorvintaal dragon + metabreath feats = legitimate, interesting draconic threat.

I made a Xorvintaal Dracolich Chaos Dragon BBEG for a minor Epic campaign. He nearly TPKed even without using his BW. The only thing that stopped him? I was playing a CG Soulborn NPC, and my Share Incarnum Defense ability allowed the party's Psion to act again. That was the campaign that I tested the Soulborn in first, and I was surprised that such a weak ability came into play.

[Alavar]

Actually, IIRC, someone can stop you drowning via a DC 15 Heal check...

My memory's not perfect, though. I think I saw it in Frostburn.


I'm pretty sure that's the way to help a friend dying from the Drown spell in the SC, but it is funny that making a heal check stops people from dying because of magical water created in your lungs.

[Claudius Maximus]

Anything between pages 5 and 317 of the Epic Level Handbook.

Iron Heart Surge.

[Riffington]

Size modifiers to spot/grapple/etc.

Tiny things can never find each other? Bizarre.
Tiny things can never successfully grapple each other (because you can oppose it with an untrained escape artist)? Just dumb.

[dougch]

Xorvintaal dragon + metabreath feats = legitimate, interesting draconic threat.


you can reapply metabreath feats as often as you like to the same breath so if you felt liek it the dragon woudl burn the world nuff said

[Sinfire Titan]

you can reapply metabreath feats as often as you like to the same breath so if you felt liek it the dragon woudl burn the world nuff said

1/day, you can reapply Enlarge Breath 14,400 times. If your breath weapon was a 30ft cone, it suddenly becomes a 216,000ft cone. Or 40.91 miles. Every additional day you add to the recharge time adds another 40.91 miles. Assuming the Prime Material plane is the size of Earth (diameter at Earth's equator is 7926.28 miles), forcing your breath weapon to recharge for a full year for Enlarge breath should allow you to cover nearly twice the Earth's diameter with one breath weapon.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Making obesity a "Vile Feat", to be taken by evil characters :smallconfused:. Generally, making body modification into evil feats. Oh, and BDSM. Thanks, Book of Vile Darkness.

Oh god, Lichloved. Damn the Lichloved feat. :smalleek:

I don't even know how it's supposed to work!

"Hey, let's make a feat.... where people have sex with liches and then other undead start liking them more!"
"Why?"
"Why not?!"

[Zeta Kai]

They were the public beta.

I LOL'd at this.

And the Lichloved feat was written by a sick mind. WotC published this, but they have a problem with the BoEF? I sense an acute case of hypocrisy.

[Dr Bwaa]

DFAs

Deterministic Finite Automata?

Oh, right. Dragon Fire Adept. Too much comp sci for me.

I had this reaction too, lol. Also,


They were the public beta

Fantastic.


1/day, you can reapply Enlarge Breath 14,400 times. If your breath weapon was a 30ft cone, it suddenly becomes a 216,000ft cone. Or 40.91 miles. Every additional day you add to the recharge time adds another 40.91 miles. Assuming the Prime Material plane is the size of Earth (diameter at Earth's equator is 7926.28 miles), forcing your breath weapon to recharge for a full year for Enlarge breath should allow you to cover nearly twice the Earth's diameter with one breath weapon.

Worth it :smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

I LOL'd at this.

And the Lichloved feat was written by a sick mind. WotC published this, but they have a problem with the BoEF? I sense an acute case of hypocrisy.

Everyone has a problem with BoEF.

In fact, that is a prime example of things in the rules that make me wonder what the hell they were smoking.

[Tavar]

Everyone has a problem with BoEF.

In fact, that is a prime example of things in the rules that make me wonder what the hell they were smoking.

Actually, several posters have mentioned good stuff found in the BoEF. Though they do say you need to throw out all of the illustrations. Most of the Flavor is good, though, as are some of the items and PrC's.

[Nai_Calus]

The lifespan of elves and their -2 to con. Con represents health so should they live a far shorter life?

The hells with *that*, what the sodding heck is up with their age categories?!

I live up to 700 years... But I'm middle-aged at 175. I'm old at like 250, and I'm venerable at *350*. What. The. Frak?

The drow cleric in my sig is younger than I would have liked him to be, because I do not want age penalties to physical stats, not with those stat rolls.

Yes, I'm a minimum of 110 years old when I start adventuring, and then sixty-five years later, I'm suddenly middle-aged when I should by all SANE reasoning still be young. Wait, what?

Well. Frankly. Damn near everything in 3.5 makes me wonder what they thought they were doing, but the elven age categories especially make me go 'what'. They just make no sense at all.

[Dixieboy]

Actually, several posters have mentioned good stuff found in the BoEF. Though they do say you need to throw out all of the illustrations. Most of the Flavor is good, though, as are some of the items and PrC's.

It's sort off like BoED and BoVD: Overall the books are crap, but there are a few nice things if you dare dive in.

[Tyndmyr]

It's sort off like BoED and BoVD: Overall the books are crap, but there are a few nice things if you dare dive in.

There's always something of use if you dig hard enough...but I wouldn't mind it if the entire book perished in fire forever.

[Indon]

No, I know exactly what they were thinking.


"Man, you know, if you run all the stuff the exact way we wrote it, the game'd turn out kind of silly."
"Okay, but who the hell would do that? We handwave stuff in our games all the time, that's how it's supposed to be played. Hell, that's why there's a DM."

And later on:

"So... they aren't handwaving stuff."
"No, no they aren't."
"Our game doesn't actually function under these conditions. How the heck could we possibly get it to function under these conditions?"
"I dunno. Wanna play a board game?"
*LIGHT BULB*


But on a serious note, the morality stuff they explore in BoVD and BoED, while a brave foray into something D&D normally treads softly in, gets silly sometimes.

[Cyrion]

Favored Souls- I suppose I can justify a spontaneous divine caster not getting Knowledge (Religion), but Knowledge (Arcana) instead?!? From a play perspective losing Religion and not turning undead means they can't do much in the way of a divine PrC until an absurdly high level.

Elves- Favored class is Wizard, but they're not particularly good characters for a wizard with that -2 in Con and no bonus to Int.

[TheCountAlucard]

I'm pretty sure that's the way to help a friend dying from the Drown spell in the SC, but it is funny that making a heal check stops people from dying because of magical water created in your lungs.That's probably where I saw it. My mistake. :smallredface:

[Foryn Gilnith]

Size modifiers to spot/grapple/etc.

Tiny things can never find each other? Bizarre.
Tiny things can never successfully grapple each other (because you can oppose it with an untrained escape artist)? Just dumb.

Seconded. Anyone have any suggestions for the grapple problem?

[Boci]

Elves- Favored class is Wizard, but they're not particularly good characters for a wizard with that -2 in Con and no bonus to Int.

Necropolitant?

To contribute to the thread, combat reflexes do not make so much sense. I can make 4 attacks in the first round of combat (1 + 3 AoO) but the next round only 1 because no enemies run past me?

[Tyndmyr]

Only apply size modifiers when dealing with smaller/larger creatures?

[Tavar]

Seconded. Anyone have any suggestions for the grapple problem?

Races of War (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Advanced_Combat) has a pretty good method.

Grapple
Grapple is collectively 3 separate maneuvers that all fall under the super-heading of "grappling". Any grapple attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless your attack has the edge.

Grab On
Sometimes, you want to attach yourself to a larger creature, getting inside their reach and then repeatedly stabbing them or simply weighing them down. As an attack action you may attempt to grab on to an opponent.
Grabbing on to an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity and requires a check with the same bonuses as a melee attack. The DC to grab on to an opponent is their Touch AC plus their BAB. If you have 5 ranks of Climb or Ride, you get a +2 synergy bonus on this maneuver for each skill.
Holding on: Once you've attached yourself to your opponent, you go wherever they go. Move in to their space, and move where they do automatically (this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity or count against your movement in any way). You may attack with any light or one handed weapon, and your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus against you.
Being Held on to: If another creature has grabbed on to your character, their weight counts against your carrying capacity. If you're overloaded, you may be unable to move or even collapse until you shake your opponent off. You can attempt to attack a creature holding on to you, but your strength modifier is halved for such attacks and your attacks are at -4. You may attempt to shake your opponent off as an attack action by making a check with a bonus equal to your melee attack or Escape Artist and a DC of 10 + the greatest of your opponent's BAB, Climb Ranks, or Ride Ranks.
Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent when you grab them, they may not attack you at all once you have grabbed on to them. Further, grabbing on to an opponent does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Hold Down
Sometimes you want to pin an opponent to the ground. First, make a touch attack. Then, make a Grapple Check (BAB + Strength Modifier + Special Size Modifier) with a DC of 10 + Defender's Grapple Check Modifier. If you succeed, your opponent is pinned for one round. They can't move, and you may put ropes or manacles on them if you wish with an attack action. At the end of any turn you are pinning your opponent, you may inflict unarmed or constriction damage. With subsequent attack actions, you may attack with natural weapons or light weapons with no penalty.
Escaping a Pin: If you're pinned you can attempt to fight back, but you're prone and you suffer an additional -4 penalty to attack the creature pinning you (generally a -8 total penalty to attack your attacker). You can get out with an attack action by making a Grapple or Escape Artist check with a DC of 10 + your opponent's Grapple Modifier.
Edge Options: If you're pinning an opponent and your attacks have the edge, your opponent cannot attack you or anyone else until they get free. Furthermore, if anyone else attacks them, they are considered helpless.

Lift
Sometimes you want to put an opponent in your mouth or carry away a struggling princess. Make a touch attack and then make a Grapple Check with a DC equal to 10 + your opponent's Grapple modifier. If you succeed, your opponent is hefted into the air. You may move around freely while carrying your opponent (their weight counts against your limits of course). You may perform a coup de grace or swallow whole action on a character you have lifted, but doing so ends the lift whether it succeeds or fails.
Escaping a Lift: When you've been lifted, you cannot move under your own power, but you can continue to attack. Attacks against the creature which has lifted you are at a -4 penalty. You can also attempt to escape with an attack action by making a Grapple or Escape Artist check with a DC of 10 + your opponent's Grapple Modifier.
Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent you have lifted, they may not attack you or anyone else until they escape.

[John Campbell]

To contribute to the thread, combat reflexes do not make so much sense. I can make 4 attacks in the first round of combat (1 + 3 AoO) but the next round only 1 because no enemies run past me?

That's actually pretty reasonable. Remember, the attacks you roll don't necessarily represent every single time you swing your sword in a round; just the ones that have some chance of connecting with an opening. Provoking an attack of opportunity represents doing something that makes you more distracted and vulnerable for a moment - providing an opening that someone can connect with. More openings means more rolled attacks, even if it doesn't mean more swings of the sword. In both cases, you might be throwing a dozen blows in a combat round, but in the first case, you're throwing them at people who aren't paying so much attention to you, and so a much greater proportion of them have a chance of hitting.

Of course, this kind of implies that Combat Reflexes should be Wisdom-based (like Spot, Listen, Sense Motive...), not Dex-based, because it's not about how agile you are or how fast you can swing your sword around, but about how many of those openings you pick up on.

[The Glyphstone]

Of course, this kind of implies that Combat Reflexes should be Wisdom-based (like Spot, Listen, Sense Motive...), not Dex-based, because it's not about how agile you are or how fast you can swing your sword around, but about how many of those openings you pick up on.

It could just as easily be your reaction speed at taking advantage of said openings, which would make it more Dex-based. A high-Wis character might see more openings than a high-Dex character, but the Dexmonkey will be better equipped to slip attacks through the openings he does see, and end up with the same net result. Not that having it be Wisdom-based is any less valid, but there's plenty of ways to interpret it.


On-topic, the often-mocked Dragon Disciple and how its capstone sends it into a Schrodingian loop of qualifying and unqualifying for its own prerequisites.

[oxinabox]

Iron Heart Surge.

No, i actually see what they were thinking, they just didn't think hard enough:


When you use ISH maneuver, sellect one condition, spell, or other effect, currently affecting you and with a duration of 1or more rounds.That effect ends immedilatly.

"Hey, lets make a power so this warrior type can gather his resolve and shake off a being dazed or shaken."

"Yeah great idea, warriors should be able to bellow a battle cry and surge farward to lope of the head of the fool who tried to disable them, totally classic fantasy scene!"

"Yeah, so hows this sound: 'Select one condition that's affecting you, it ends immediatly' "

"sounds good, but what about spells like "curse of ill fortune (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=4522)"? there basically conditions but arn't labled as such. Don't forget we must help him protect from batman wizards"

"Oh yeah, Make that: 'Select one condition or spells that's affecting you, it ends immediatly' "

"Couldn't he use that to prevent damage from a fireball?"

"oh thanks i never thoguht of that, you just save me from making a terriably abusable manouver. damage spells have duration of instantainous, we'll imit him to ending ones of duration 1 round or more: 'Select one condition or spells that's affecting you, with duration of 1 round or more. it ends immediatly' "

"Hey what about psionic powers, Soulmelds, truespeach... and whatever else we come up with in the future?"

"Oh yeah, better put in a catch-all for any effects that basicaly impose a condition. so 'Select one condition, spells or effect that's affecting you, with duration of 1 round or more. it ends immediatly' "

"Cool, looks like a job well done. we've created a new manouver."

"yeah, and neither of us got fired. nice work!"

"Hey, I wonder what logical guys up to now?"

"oh yeah, real sad story: it was in the paper.
apparently he shot himself"

"man, that's harsh. he always seemded so happy. What could have caused this?"

"I don't remember mkuch of the artical, but i they mention he had in his opther hand a character sheet, all they mentioned was the characters name was PunPun. mean anything to you?"

[Dixieboy]

On-topic, the often-mocked Dragon Disciple and how its capstone sends it into a Schrodingian loop of qualifying and unqualifying for its own prerequisites.

Not really a problem though.

It doesn't say anywhere that the dragon disciple loses his abilities if he stops qualifying for further level gain in the class.

[infinitypanda]

Size modifiers to spot/grapple/etc.

Tiny things can never find each other? Bizarre.

Think of it this way: two humans are 60' away from each other. This means that they are 10 body-lengths apart. Now imagine that two pixies are 60' away from each other. They are 120 body-lengths apart. Yet they both have the same spot checks penalties due to distance, so they need to make up for it somehow. Also, small creatures need less cover to hide behind.

[Starbuck_II]

Not really a problem though.

It doesn't say anywhere that the dragon disciple loses his abilities if he stops qualifying for further level gain in the class.

Complete Warrior says it does.

[Riffington]

Think of it this way: two humans are 60' away from each other. This means that they are 10 body-lengths apart. Now imagine that two pixies are 60' away from each other. They are 120 body-lengths apart. Yet they both have the same spot checks penalties due to distance, so they need to make up for it somehow. Also, small creatures need less cover to hide behind.

That's vaguely true, except that tiny animals find others of their same species all the time without much difficulty.

And you're going to have the devil of a time justifying the grapple bit.

[infinitypanda]

That's vaguely true, except that tiny animals find others of their same species all the time without much difficulty.

And you're going to have the devil of a time justifying the grapple bit.

The grapple bit is just flat out dumb.

[Dixieboy]

Complete Warrior says it does.
What?
Where?

[Kylarra]

What?
Where?CW 16, CA 17; Both discuss the possibility of no longer meeting the prerequisites for a prestige class. You lose all the special abilities, but retain HD, BAB and saves. Thus the capstone of dragon disciple makes you a dragon and no longer eligible for dragon disciple which would cause you to lose the special abilities (including the capstone) and become eligible, but once you had the special abilities again, you're no longer eligible and... yeah.

[AllisterH]

Many of the problems with spells is that they were translated from 1e/2e where the underlying subsystem meant spells were treated differently.

If scroll creation only kicks in at 9th level AND you don't get bonus slots for high INT AND spells are gotten haphazardly, you don't really have to worry about the effects of spells being combined/spammed.

Knock is balanced in 1e/2e, Knock in 3.x is a rogue stealing schtick.

[tyckspoon]

CW 16, CA 17; Both discuss the possibility of no longer meeting the prerequisites for a prestige class. You lose all the special abilities, but retain HD, BAB and saves. Thus the capstone of dragon disciple makes you a dragon and no longer eligible for dragon disciple which would cause you to lose the special abilities (including the capstone) and become eligible, but once you had the special abilities again, you're no longer eligible and... yeah.

The only sane way I know of to handle this (aside from ignoring it completely, which is what I'd actually recommend) is to only apply it to the PrCs printed in those respective books, which do not, to the best of my recollection, have abilities that would disqualify themselves. For them, it just adds an additional hazard to using a temporary or removable source to meet the entry prereqs.

[Lycanthromancer]

"Errata" in books you have to pay to play.

For instance, the Rules Compendium.

"We're only using the books we have access to. Also, the errata."
"But we don't have the books with the errata."
*Spacetime explodes*

Also, 80% of Complete Psionic.

[Mongoose87]

"Errata" in books you have to pay to play.

For instance, the Rules Compendium.

"We're only using the books we have access to. Also, the errata."
"But we don't have the books with the errata."
*Spacetime explodes*

Also, 80% of Complete Psionic.

I'd like to know what they were thinking when they made most of the ToB errata actually errata for the Complete Mage.

[AllisterH]

I'd like to know what they were thinking when they made most of the ToB errata actually errata for the Complete Mage.

Huh?

Don't understand this one...please explain

[Akal Saris]

Many of the problems with spells is that they were translated from 1e/2e where the underlying subsystem meant spells were treated differently.

If scroll creation only kicks in at 9th level AND you don't get bonus slots for high INT AND spells are gotten haphazardly, you don't really have to worry about the effects of spells being combined/spammed.

Knock is balanced in 1e/2e, Knock in 3.x is a rogue stealing schtick.

I think Knock is pretty balanced in 3.x by the fact that open lock isn't really that important of a rogue skill in the first place - most groups I know have vials of acid or adamantine daggers or what-have-you to replace Open Lock.

Polymorph healing you was a weird inclusion, I agree.

PrCs that grant a feat which the character should already have, like Thaumaturgist giving Augment Summoning and Master Thrower giving Quick Draw.

All of the useless plant-related spells like Command Plants, Control Plants, Antiplant Shell, and Diminish Plants. Are plants really such a serious threat that druids need 4 specific spells to deal with them, let alone that other spells such as horrid wilting specifically harm plants more than usual? I mean really, the dwarves might have a point here...

[tyckspoon]

Huh?

Don't understand this one...please explain

The supposed errata for Tome of Battle has exactly two complete entries for the actual Tome of Battle (they are notably not for Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics.) All of the rest are for items in Complete Arcane. IIRC, if you stick exactly to the official line on errata, this means that Tome of Battle is now actually part of C. Arcane (or maybe the other way around. Either way it's a mind-bogglingly stupid thing to let happen. It's also a wonderful indicator of how little WotC cared and cares about 3.5 now that the official errata still has this error, even if they don't release the proper ToB corrections.)

[Dixieboy]

I think Knock is pretty balanced in 3.x by the fact that open lock isn't really that important of a rogue skill in the first place - most groups I know have vials of acid or adamantine daggers or what-have-you to replace Open Lock.

Polymorph healing you was a weird inclusion, I agree.

PrCs that grant a feat which the character should already have, like Thaumaturgist giving Augment Summoning and Master Thrower giving Quick Draw.

All of the useless plant-related spells like Command Plants, Control Plants, Antiplant Shell, and Diminish Plants. Are plants really such a serious threat that druids need 4 specific spells to deal with them, let alone that other spells such as horrid wilting specifically harm plants more than usual? I mean really, the dwarves might have a point here...

The dwarves do have a point, the reason that they are the only ones to be so paranoids however is the fact that there are so few of them who take levels in wizard or druid.
The rest take it for granted that dangerous weeds are taken care off by the resident caster, while dwarves fight for their lives every day.

[oxinabox]

I'd like to know what they were thinking when they made most of the ToB errata actually errata for the Complete Mage.

Yeah, that really confused me.

[taltamir]

Seconded. Anyone have any suggestions for the grapple problem?

i am pretty sure it actually says that the modifiers are assuming a med sized character against a monster, for non med sized you go by size category difference between the two. (aka, two tiny creatures are same size, so no bonus to either of them)

[Myou]

i am pretty sure it actually says that the modifiers are assuming a med sized character against a monster, for non med sized you go by size category difference between the two. (aka, two tiny creatures are same size, so no bonus to either of them)

Seconded. .

[Kurald Galain]

Way too many dragons. Hey, let's have colored dragons, all of which are evil, and then also use metallic dragons, all of which are good! But that's boring, so we also need crystalline dragons, all of which are neutral!! And just for good measure, let's throw in a shadow dragon!!! And a purple one!!!! And a chequered teal dragon!!!!!

[lesser_minion]

The only sane way I know of to handle this (aside from ignoring it completely, which is what I'd actually recommend) is to only apply it to the PrCs printed in those respective books, which do not, to the best of my recollection, have abilities that would disqualify themselves. For them, it just adds an additional hazard to using a temporary or removable source to meet the entry prereqs.

The rule is the exact same as it appeared in 3.0 (you lose all class features and other prerequisites of a PrC for which you cease to qualify).

I have no idea why it disappeared in 3.5, but I suspect that the change was probably meant specifically for the Dragon Disciple's benefit.

Your solution probably works, however - I think they meant to switch to having PrCs indicate whether or not you have to continue meeting the requirements.

[Fitz]

quote "Way too many dragons. Hey, let's have colored dragons, all of which are evil, and then also use metallic dragons, all of which are good! But that's boring, so we also need crystalline dragons, all of which are neutral!! And just for good measure, let's throw in a shadow dragon!!! And a purple one!!!! And a chequered teal dragon!!!!! "


beware the dread tartan dragon ;-)

far to many things just don't work if you think about them too hard...and they didn't think people would think about them, just buy another book?

Fitz

[elonin]

I remember thinking for a long time that there is no point in taking more than 15 ranks in tumble (less than that if you have a good dex). Don't forget about diplomacy or the fact that by the rules your senses get better as you age.

[Riffington]

the fact that by the rules your senses get better as you age.

Honestly, I'd double-fix this.
First, I'd put senses in Dex where they belong. How do you represent "blind as a bat?" Dex 3, not Wisdom 3. Who's stereotypically got the best senses? The wise man or the rogue/scout/ranger? They just thought that Dex was becoming too important a stat and Wis was too much a dumpstat; they happened to be wrong.
Second, people don't get smarter, wiser, or more charismatic past the age of 30. They may have a little more experience, but D&D already has a powerful way to represent the benefits of experience without actually increasing attribute scores.

[Oslecamo]

Honestly, I'd double-fix this.
First, I'd put senses in Dex where they belong. How do you represent "blind as a bat?" Dex 3, not Wisdom 3. Who's stereotypically got the best senses? The wise man or the rogue/scout/ranger? They just thought that Dex was becoming too important a stat and Wis was too much a dumpstat; they happened to be wrong.

Spot isn't only a matter of good senses. It's a matter of understanding what you're looking at. Having really good eyes it's no good if you don't actually know what you're looking for. A wise man will notice details of what he's observing that wouldn't catch the atention of a commoner, like footsteps left by an invisible wizard, or the fact that a big tree has moved some centimeters from a second ago, meaning it's actually an aproaching treant.





Second, people don't get smarter, wiser, or more charismatic past the age of 30. They may have a little more experience, but D&D already has a powerful way to represent the benefits of experience without actually increasing attribute scores.
It's a fantasy stereotype people. Great mythical heroes never seem to suffer Alzheimer or any mind related diseases, so indeed the acumulated knowledge as they age makes them get smarter/wiser/more charismatic.

[Riffington]

Spot isn't only a matter of good senses. It's a matter of understanding what you're looking at. Having really good eyes it's no good if you don't actually know what you're looking for.

Sure, but you've just described Dex. Dex isn't only a matter of good speed or coordination. It's a matter of quickly understanding what you're looking at and reacting accordingly.


Great mythical heroes never seem to suffer Alzheimer or any mind related diseases
Ok, but if we're going by fantasy/myth, then let them keep their Strength and Con as they age. Great retired mythical heroes always seem to shrug off the years if they come out of retirement for a day, and (besides) can out-armwrestle and outdrink any young knight who comes into their bar.

[Starbuck_II]

Honestly, I'd double-fix this.
First, I'd put senses in Dex where they belong. How do you represent "blind as a bat?" Dex 3, not Wisdom 3. Who's stereotypically got the best senses? The wise man or the rogue/scout/ranger? They just thought that Dex was becoming too important a stat and Wis was too much a dumpstat; they happened to be wrong.
Second, people don't get smarter, wiser, or more charismatic past the age of 30. They may have a little more experience, but D&D already has a powerful way to represent the benefits of experience without actually increasing attribute scores.

The saying Blind as a Bat is silly anyway. Bats aren't blind: they actually have pretty good eyesight. They just use echo location more often because it is better.
I mean why walk when you can fly. Why use your average eyesight when you have blindsight.

[Ravens_cry]

The lifespan of elves and their -2 to con. Con represents health so should they live a far shorter life?
Actually, that makes complete sense. They have 'chosen' to burn longer, not hotter. Even in the real word, there were studies that showed those who live the longest are right on the edge of starvation (http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/07/15/f-calorie-restriction-lifespan-extension.html). They are frailer in the now in order to have a longer later.
Of course, to get to elf type ages, magic and other applied phlebotinum is likely involved, but the principle is sound.

[elonin]

For skillmonkey types players are begging to unistat to Dex as it is. The first move I'd make is to remove the aging bonuses. I'd also let the experience improvements come through levels (also removes the issue with players wanting to play venerable druids) and remove aging bonuses. I'd have to wonder if aging would have the same effects in a high magic society at least among the favored few like adventurers or rich.

[taltamir]

my fix to the age penalties... as they age they get penalties to physical stats, and bonuses AND penalties to mental stats, with the penalties being larger.
However, all penalties for aging are curable by magic, if you can afford it...

So your average farmer gains +2 and loses -4 and ends up 2 less wisdom per age category... your local noble, king, adventurer or anyone else who can afford magic that costs the GDP of a small nation... he just gets the benefits of accumulated knowledge without the age diseases. (or rather, he gets both, but gets cured of his dementia with powerful magic... heal can actually cure insanity and other mental ailments)

[Oslecamo]

Ok, but if we're going by fantasy/myth, then let them keep their Strength and Con as they age. Great retired mythical heroes always seem to shrug off the years if they come out of retirement for a day, and (besides) can out-armwrestle and outdrink any young knight who comes into their bar.

Not exactly. Retired mythical heros always complain that their bodies aren't as good as they used to be, and reduced stamina in particular is precisely the thing that forces them to train a new generation of heroes.


If they can outmatch the young knight, it's because they know a trick or two to make up for their reduced strenght. And they can't always do it. When they fail they normally say "Ah, if I was just forty years younger..."

[elonin]

How about the unrealistic hit point system. Unlike well trained warriors in military today a mid level warrior in dnd doesn't fear someone throwing a jar of acid at their face. Role master does this a bit better with hit points being based on race, though their mechanism for developing hit points is different. That makes more sense, but I'd go further and give that hit points for 1st level are really hitpoints and hit points gained later are treated like sdc.

[taltamir]

How about the unrealistic hit point system. Unlike well trained warriors in military today a mid level warrior in dnd doesn't fear someone throwing a jar of acid at their face. Role master does this a bit better with hit points being based on race, though their mechanism for developing hit points is different. That makes more sense, but I'd go further and give that hit points for 1st level are really hitpoints and hit points gained later are treated like sdc.

Not only do they not fear a jar thrown at their face, they also do not fear falling down from high places, nor being stabbed with a sword...

A critical hit (which is a hit at a vital organ by the RAW) with most weapons is still putting them at no danger at all... and they heal HP from rest... so there is no risk of crippling injuries.

For that matter... falling damage should do ability score damage. to indicate broken bones, sprains, and eventually death (to which your "level" is irrelevant)

[Eldariel]

Not only do they not fear a jar thrown at their face, they also do not fear falling down from high places, nor being stabbed with a sword...

A critical hit (which is a hit at a vital organ by the RAW) with most weapons is still putting them at no danger at all... and they heal 1HP from rest... so there is no risk of crippling injuries.

For that matter... falling damage should do ability score damage. to indicate broken bones, sprains, and eventually death (to which your "level" is irrelevant)

This is why I use Wound Point system with few modifications. It works much better, making most damage deal "Vitality Point"-damage, which represents your ability to avoid harm, but then has a separate pool of Wound Points that get involved if someone gets a good hit in or you take falling-damage or such; basically, when the damage is really dealt to you (also when Vitality Points, or the ability to avoid harm, runs out). So you've got your normal survivability, but you can still die to that one sword to the gut.

[sonofzeal]

Hit points are horrible as far as realism goes, but they make for great gameplay. There's a reason the vast majority of RPGs (PnP, consol, and MMO) use it; it's fun, easy, gives a sense of danger when they start going down, lets you see death coming and try to do something about it, and generally makes for a fun (if not exactly realistic) game.

I'll give them a pass.

[Eldariel]

Hit points are horrible as far as realism goes, but they make for great gameplay. There's a reason the vast majority of RPGs (PnP, consol, and MMO) use it; it's fun, easy, gives a sense of danger when they start going down, lets you see death coming and try to do something about it, and generally makes for a fun (if not exactly realistic) game.

I'll give them a pass.

I think something akin to WP system is more interesting though; it accomplishes basically the same while being perfectly believable. Of course, it's also more mortal, but I assume that doesn't really trouble most DMs too much.

If anything, the fact that every hit can be mortal just makes you respect even lowly opponents a bit.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I perceive heroes above 5th level as basically superhuman, so HP doesn't jar me terribly.

[elonin]

Part of my comment was to point out that there are better systems that are not that complicated. The better fantasy characters are heroes/vigilantes but do realize that it's likely that they'll die. That chance needs to be there or the games are nothing except glorified char-op sessions with some rp thrown in. Not that I'm against optimized statting.

[Rainbownaga]

Ability stats going up by only 1 point every 4 levels.

Sure, for the most part you're better at everything now, but occasionally there's something that just seems wrong; You're tough enough to survive a 40' fall, dust yourself off and walk away, but you aren't any tougher than a level 1 because you have the same con score... What does that even mean?

[Kylarra]

Ability stats going up by only 1 point every 4 levels.

Sure, for the most part you're better at everything now, but occasionally there's something that just seems wrong; You're tough enough to survive a 40' fall, dust yourself off and walk away, but you aren't any tougher than a level 1 because you have the same con score... What does that even mean?
Toughness in abstraction, you do have higher HP and generally higher saves. Granted a level one fighter is still better at fort than the wizard until at least level 6.

[Curmudgeon]

The rule is the exact same as it appeared in 3.0 (you lose all class features and other prerequisites of a PrC for which you cease to qualify).
Actually, it can't be "the exact same", since the two rules (Complete Warrior page 16 and Complete Arcane page 17) are rather different.
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.
Should a character find herself in a position (because of changed alignment, lost levels, or the like) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class. You'll note that the Complete Arcane rule only chops out special abilities, but not other class features. The result? Every PrC description in Complete Arcane excludes "Spells per Day/Spells Known" from the category of special abilities. Yet the Bladesinger in Complete Warrior loses all their PrC spellcasting abilities because those are class features. Since the most important class feature in Complete Arcane PrCs is generally continued spellcasting progression, there's a huge practical difference in these two different rules.

[Riffington]

If they can outmatch the young knight, it's because they know a trick or two to make up for their reduced strenght. And they can't always do it. When they fail they normally say "Ah, if I was just forty years younger..."

Sure, he may say that, but if the old retired fighter is bested by the young knight, it's because that young knight is destined for great things that will far surpass that old man's deeds.

[sonofzeal]

I think something akin to WP system is more interesting though; it accomplishes basically the same while being perfectly believable. Of course, it's also more mortal, but I assume that doesn't really trouble most DMs too much.

If anything, the fact that every hit can be mortal just makes you respect even lowly opponents a bit.
I'm not familiar with WP, but in the consol/MMO games I've played, it's very nice to be able to have a bit of reliability when fighting enemies. It's rather frustrating knowing that you could have beaten this guy back when the game started, but he's still a potential threat even now. It feels like you aren't really progressing, and progress is one of the big reward factors for these types of games.

[Eldariel]

I'm not familiar with WP, but in the consol/MMO games I've played, it's very nice to be able to have a bit of reliability when fighting enemies. It's rather frustrating knowing that you could have beaten this guy back when the game started, but he's still a potential threat even now. It feels like you aren't really progressing, and progress is one of the big reward factors for these types of games.

For me, it's absolutely critical that even though the opponents are less of a threat, they are still a threat. Like, I can kill them faster and I can more easily avoid their hits as I'm on a higher level, but if they get incredibly lucky (.25% chance if they only hit on 20), they can still deliver a relevant blow.

This reminds me that while I'm fcking awesome, I'm still a mortal (until I'm not, of course). Now, I don't apply this to console/MMO games, but I feel they're a very different case from tabletop RPGs; I don't expect realism or verisimilitude from video games, but in tabletop RPGs I find it nice to feel that the character you're playing is still a humanoid (provided you ARE playing a humanoid).

WP system is basically this:
- Your normal HP are Vitality Points; they represent your ability to turn hits into glancing blows and luck and such - heroic traits that enable you to avoid serious injury. This increases by level as per normal, and regenerate at the rate of point/hour/level (so natural VP healing is FAST).
- You have WP equal to your constitution total. This does not increase, other than when your Con grows. This represents your actual capability to sustain punishments. There are size-bonuses to these; bigger creatures can take more punishment. These regenerate very slowly. All HP boosts like Toughness go here.
- When you're dealt damage, provided you have Vitality Points left, it's usually dealt to Vitality Points. The exceptions are the key difference between the systems:
* Criticals deal direct damage to Wound Points.
* Damage from things you cannot possibly avoid can concievably deal Wound Point-damage. This isn't spelled out in the rules, but I like playing like this. So if you're immersed in lava or dropped from an aeroplane, it deals Wound Point-damage.
- There are consequences for taking Wound Point-damage.
1. You're considered Fatigued after taking the first WP damage until you get 8 hours of rest in or the WP damage is healed. Additional damage doesn't escalate this to Exhausted.
2. You must roll a Fortitude-save (DC 5 + WP damage taken) to avoid becoming Stunned for 1d4 rounds.
3. If you reach 0 WP, you roll DC 15 Fort-save; success means you're disabled, fail means you're unconscious and dying. Each consequent round, Fort-save vs. DC 10+1 per round; fail means you die, success by 1-4 means you don't die, success by 5+ stabilizes and success by 10+ resumes consciousness.


That's the barebones version; we have finally expanded upon this in our group by making VP damage lead to fatigue and exhaustion, and WP damage deal actual limb damage, causing various penalties and potential long-term losses.

Also, some stuff like Regeneration, Coup de Grace, critical multipliers, healing spells and such work a bit differently under the default WP/VP system. See the basic rules here:
Obligatory SRD link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm)

[Delwugor]

Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) - "Let's design a combat subsystem that requires 2 successful attacks and be so complicated we need to put out a 6 page explanation which does nothing to clarify it"

Sanity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm) - "Let's ignore the built in will saving throw mechanism and go with a percentile based subsystem to determine mental stability and resistance to horror."

Cross-Class Skills - "Let's have a penalty for when character's want to do something beyond what we think their class should do."

[Tyndmyr]

I like sanity...I just wish it were a more integral part of the game.

[drengnikrafe]

Unless I missed someone saying this already...

Wild Spell, or whatever that stupid Druid feat is that lets them cast spells as animals.
"Hey, let's make it so that the highly complex incantations that bind magic to the world can be replaced by grunting and pawing around."

[Eldariel]

I like sanity...I just wish it were a more integral part of the game.

Agreed. And morale too. Overall, mental conditions beyond few minor bonuses/penalties should be present more prominently.

[Kylarra]

I like sanity...I just wish it were a more integral part of the game.I wish it were a more integral part of the players too...

[Mystic Muse]

I wish it were a more integral part of the players too...

lol. Good one.

[Tavar]

Unless I missed someone saying this already...

Wild Spell, or whatever that stupid Druid feat is that lets them cast spells as animals.
"Hey, let's make it so that the highly complex incantations that bind magic to the world can be replaced by grunting and pawing around."

Actually, this one makes perfect sense from a thematic view. Druids gain there power from a close connection to nature, right? So, while taking the form of an animal and thereby greatly increasing their connection, why shouldn't they be able to cast spells? Does turning into an animal somehow break their connection to nature?

Really, I think their explanation of spellcasting is poor at best. I have my own views, but this isn't the time or place for that.

[Tyndmyr]

I wish it were a more integral part of the players too...

Now that's just crazy talk.

[Eldariel]

Now that's just crazy talk.

Y'know, you two confuse me to no end with your avatars. I was thinking "Talking to yourself" reading those posts before I checked the usernames. I'm going insaaaaane!

[Indon]

Y'know, you two confuse me to no end with your avatars. I was thinking "Talking to yourself" reading those posts before I checked the usernames. I'm going insaaaaane!

Hit up a good therapist, then, you can get a couple D6's back.

At least some of the alternate systems there are borrowed from various third-party D20 games. The Sanity system is from the Call of Cthulhu D20 system (I think the Incantation system might also be from CoC D20). The Spell Point system is from the Wheel of Time D20 system (at least).

[Tyndmyr]

The Action Point system is the blatantly renamed Drama Die system from 7th Sea.

Unfortunately, due to the drastically different xp systems between the two, they did not klepto the part where unused dice become xp at the end of an act, which greatly rewarded people for not simply blasting their way through things.

[abandon hope]

Darkness causes illumination. Also, not darkness. That would have saved me two and a half hours of wandering around at quarter speed and rolling a fifty percent miss chance Friday night. Should have read the spell.

[Starbuck_II]

Darkness causes illumination. Also, not darkness. That would have saved me two and a half hours of wandering around at quarter speed and rolling a fifty percent miss chance Friday night. Should have read the spell.

Yep, gives off candle light.

[Curmudgeon]

Darkness causes illumination. Also, not darkness.
Yeah, I just change the name from Darkness to Dimness, and the spell suddenly seems just fine. :smallwink:

[Zaq]

I like skill tricks. They're cinematic, fun, and usually acceptably powered (some are better than others, sure, but that's always the way it is).

Except for one. Mosquito's Bite.

I have no goddamn clue what this skill trick actually does. They don't notice that you hit them for one round? What does that actually mean? What does it do? How does that make any sense at all? What if you hit them with a poisoned weapon... do they not notice that? What if they have low HP or you get off a successful sneak attack or something, and they DIE (or at least go unconscious)? Do they not notice that they're dead?

Argh. I ban that trick outright.

[Dixieboy]

Cross-Class Skills - "Let's have a penalty for when character's want to do something beyond what we think their class should do."I don't get the issue here, to me it makes sense from both a a mechanical and thematic standpoint.

[Myrmex]

Second, people don't get smarter, wiser, or more charismatic past the age of 30.

Then why are captains of industry and heads of state almost always over 40? Most of the time when you have really young politicians is when they came to power in a coup d'etat, when having reasonable physical scores makes sense.

[Dixieboy]

Then why are captains of industry and heads of state almost always over 40?

Because you don't usually immidiatley start out at the very top, you have to work your way up there, which takes time.

[Myrmex]

Actually, that makes complete sense. They have 'chosen' to burn longer, not hotter. Even in the real word, there were studies that showed those who live the longest are right on the edge of starvation (http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/07/15/f-calorie-restriction-lifespan-extension.html). They are frailer in the now in order to have a longer later.
Of course, to get to elf type ages, magic and other applied phlebotinum is likely involved, but the principle is sound.

Actually, starvation diets and living longer is a bit more complicated. In a sheltered, western lifestyle, you'll live longer, since most of the other causes of mortality are mitigated. But if you have to face the grueling hardships of actual famine, plague, war and a lifetime of labor, then eating when you can is a damn fine idea.


Hit up a good therapist, then, you can get a couple D6's back.

At least some of the alternate systems there are borrowed from various third-party D20 games. The Sanity system is from the Call of Cthulhu D20 system (I think the Incantation system might also be from CoC D20). The Spell Point system is from the Wheel of Time D20 system (at least).

Isn't the sanity system adapted from an older percentile mechanic, published by Chaosium or someone? CoC d20 is relatively new.


Except for one. Mosquito's Bite.

I have no goddamn clue what this skill trick actually does. They don't notice that you hit them for one round? What does that actually mean? What does it do? How does that make any sense at all? What if you hit them with a poisoned weapon... do they not notice that? What if they have low HP or you get off a successful sneak attack or something, and they DIE (or at least go unconscious)? Do they not notice that they're dead?

Argh. I ban that trick outright.

It answers all those questions outright in the text.

[Set]

Way too many dragons. Hey, let's have colored dragons, all of which are evil, and then also use metallic dragons, all of which are good! But that's boring, so we also need crystalline dragons, all of which are neutral!! And just for good measure, let's throw in a shadow dragon!!! And a purple one!!!! And a chequered teal dragon!!!!!

Oh, don't forget Song, Fang, Steel and Greyhawk dragons, as well as the six or so Oriental Dragons! Then the Planar Dragons, and the Hellfire Dragon, and the Ferrous Dragons...

Can one planet support entire *species* of each of these dragons?

Not to mention the thirty or so humanoid species. Between Humans, Elves (Aquatic, Wild, Wood, High, Grey and Dark), Dwarves (Gray, Hill and Mountain), Gnomes (Forest, Rock and Deep), Halflings (Stouts, Tallfellows and, uh, the ones in the middle), Orcs, 1/2 Orcs, 1/2 Elves, 1/2 Ogres, Ogres, Gnolls, Flind, Hobgoblins, Goblins, Bugbears, Troglodytes, Sahuagin, Merfolk, Locathah, Kuo-Toa, Skum, Mongrelfolk, Kobolds, Lizardfolk, Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, Blackscale Lizardfolk, Koalinth (aquatic hobgoblins!), Centaurs, Derro, Dopplegangers, Grimlocks, Hags (Green, Annis and Sea), Minotaurs, Satyrs, Dryads, Yuan-Ti, Lycanthropes (wolf, bear, boar, tiger, rat, raven, etc.), Aasimar, Tieflings, and the 40,000 other humanoid races that are more setting dependent (Skulks, Meenlocks, Tengu, Korobokuru, Bhuka, Goliaths, Aarakocra, Winged Elves, Changelings, Shifters, Kalashtar, Warforged, Tinker Gnomes, Kender, Beastmen, Tasloi, Norkers, Ogrillons, Raptorans, Illumians, Whisper Gnomes, Dream Dwarves, Catfolk, Wemics, Asaatthi, the Proud, Bat Devils, Serpentfolk, etc.) it's a wonder that the planet hasn't been paved over and made into a giant medieval mega-city...

[Dixieboy]

I don't think you are meant to assume that all races in the monster manuals exists in your world at the same time.
That'd be silly.

[Eldariel]

Oh, don't forget Song, Fang, Steel and Greyhawk dragons, as well as the six or so Oriental Dragons! Then the Planar Dragons, and the Hellfire Dragon, and the Ferrous Dragons...

Can one planet support entire *species* of each of these dragons?

...guys. What about Force Dragons and Prismatic Dragons? Y'know, the unquestioned tops of the food chain?

[Set]

I don't think you are meant to assume that all races in the monster manuals exists in your world at the same time.
That'd be silly.

You've clearly not experienced the joys of the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, which not only assumed that the creatures from the Monster Manual, Fiend Folio and Monster Manual 2 could share a world, but that several hundred completely unrelated groups of them could co-habitate in a dungeon complex slightly smaller than the average college dormitory.

It was like, 'Oh, we've got a room here. Flip open a book. Ooh, a Dracolisk! Haven't used one of those yet.'

So many adventures feel like that. Roll to see which way the corridor goes. Roll to see if there's a room there. Roll for room shape. Roll to see what's in the room. Which, admittedly, was occasionally a fun way to run an adventure, back in college. :)

[Kurald Galain]

...guys. What about Force Dragons and Prismatic Dragons? Y'know, the unquestioned tops of the food chain?

...Luke Skywaler is a dragon now?

[hamishspence]

Dragon made mostly of Force (can pass through a Wall of force, immune to Force spells like Magic Missile, and is very hard to see, and invisible at higher levels.

It's in the Epic Handbook.

These epic dragons tend to lurk on other planes, rather than the Material Plane.

The last printed Dragon Magazine had a third type- time dragons, which at great wyrm stage can move back and forth in the time stream.

[elonin]

...Luke Skywaler is a dragon now?

roflmao no but they do know jedi mind tricks.

[Riffington]

Then why are captains of industry and heads of state almost always over 40? Most of the time when you have really young politicians is when they came to power in a coup d'etat, when having reasonable physical scores makes sense.

Because experience is really important in decision-making - much more important than natural talents. D&D does recognize/exaggerate the importance of experience, of course.

[hamishspence]

Oh, don't forget Song, Fang, Steel and Greyhawk dragons, as well as the six or so Oriental Dragons! Then the Planar Dragons, and the Hellfire Dragon, and the Ferrous Dragons...

Can one planet support entire *species* of each of these dragons?

Steel dragon's alternate name is the Greyhawk Dragon (not used when the dragon is a native of Faerun)

And Planar dragons are just that- planar- not native to the Material plane, so not taxing its ecology.

Its still a problem- just not quite as big a problem.

[Aron Times]

In 4E, there is nothing in the rules that states that you cannot dual-wield tomes, staves, and orbs with the Dual Implement Spellcaster feat. There is also nothing in the rules stating that you can do so.

This leads to some interesting arguments in CharOp on whether these implements are one-handed or two-handed. Orbs are generally accepted to be one-handed, although some may argue that it looks ridiculous. Dual-wielding two staves or two tomes looks even more ridiculous, thus, the general CharOp consensus is that you should ask your DM.

[Kurald Galain]

As this just came up in another thread, the spell Read Magic.

You can only cast spells after you've studied them. You can only study spells by casting one. Looks like a paradox to me...

[Tiki Snakes]

Actually, I can see dual Staffs being quite common with Wizards wot are fond of hiking, or who are getting on in age and need quite a bit of trouble walking! ;)

Dual tomes is a hilarious mental image, above and beyond though, yes.

[The Rose Dragon]

Read Magic is the one spell you can cast without a spellbook, though, is it not? That's how it worked back in TSR days.

[Kylarra]

Y'know, you two confuse me to no end with your avatars. I was thinking "Talking to yourself" reading those posts before I checked the usernames. I'm going insaaaaane!Buahahaha




Read Magic is the one spell you can cast without a spellbook, though, is it not? That's how it worked back in TSR days.Yep.


A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm

Although it's also a 20+spell level spellcraft check if you don't want to use magic, so it works out fine.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm

[Cyclocone]

You can only cast spells after you've studied them. You can only study spells by casting one. Looks like a paradox to me...

Well, you can do it with a DC 20+spell level Spellcraft check too. Besides, you only need to ID it once, and you auto-ID stuff you wrote yourself.

..That last bit doesn't make sense to me though; I frequently have trouble deciphering my own handwriting...


Actually, I can see dual Staffs being quite common with Wizards wot are fond of hiking, or who are getting on in age and need quite a bit of trouble walking! ;)

Hehe, people actually do this IRL; it's called nordic walking and it does indeed look pretty dumb.:smallbiggrin:

[Tiki Snakes]

Hehe, people actually do this IRL; it's called nordic walking and it does indeed look pretty dumb.:smallbiggrin:

Heh, never knew it had a specific name, but yeah, I've seen it done. It's not a huge leap to imagine it done with full on magical staves, but it's certainly an amusing one.

[Blackfang108]

Then why are captains of industry and heads of state almost always over 40? Most of the time when you have really young politicians is when they came to power in a coup d'etat, when having reasonable physical scores makes sense.

At least in America, we have age limitations on the US Senate and House of Representatives. And the Presidency and Vice Presidency. (45 on the latter, IIRC.) So it makes sense. It is IMPOSSIBLE for someone who isn't in the Middle Age category to take the given oath of office. Everything else is by state/municipality.

Also, there's a town in Texas with a high-schooler for a mayor. (or was, it's been a year or two since I read about it.)

[Myrmex]

It's 25 to be a Congressman, 30 to be a Senator, and 45 to be President.

[Kurald Galain]

It's 25 to be a Congressman, 30 to be a Senator, and 45 to be President.

And you have to be at least third level to vote...

[Blackfang108]

It's 25 to be a Congressman, 30 to be a Senator, and 45 to be President.

Thanks. I knew the last one, but I wasn't sure on the other two.

And, third level lets you vote, but the vote doesn't actually count until you reach 5th.:smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

Then why are captains of industry and heads of state almost always over 40? Most of the time when you have really young politicians is when they came to power in a coup d'etat, when having reasonable physical scores makes sense.

Experience. While that 20 year old, fresh out of business school, is a 2nd level Expert, the 40 year old is a 2nd level expert/2nd level aristocrat. He's got better skill checks (10% is 10%) and more money to invest in magic items like a Circlet of Persuasion.

[LibraryOgre]

It's 25 to be a Congressman, 30 to be a Senator, and 45 to be President.

Not in the United States. 25, 30, 35.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

[Myrmex]

Experience. While that 20 year old, fresh out of business school, is a 2nd level Expert, the 40 year old is a 2nd level expert/2nd level aristocrat. He's got better skill checks (10% is 10%) and more money to invest in magic items like a Circlet of Persuasion.

And 4d6 HP?
Doubtful.


Not in the United States. 25, 30, 35.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

Doh. My bad. I just looked those up, too.

[Eldan]

Just include the constitution penalties into those HP and he won't have that many more.

[LibraryOgre]

And 4d6 HP?
Doubtful.


2d6+2d8, actually.

If you're going to use a class and level system to represent the game world, you have to recognize that there are going to be some oddities... like a more experienced person having more HP, even if they are older.

I tend to rule-of-thumb that non-adventuring humans have 1 class level per complete decade (so they tend to be 1st level in their teens, 2nd level in their 20s, 3rd in their 30s, etc.), so someone with more experience has more HP. The modifier, of course, is once they get old enough to have Con penalties, their HP goes down because they have a penalty (or lower bonuses).