new dm looking for help planning an encounter

[wizuriel]

K so new to dming and just looking for some help to fine tune an encounter. In my world the PC's were all trying to teleport somewhere, when something went wrong and they all ended up in this very unnatural cave. They eventually found their way to a town and learnt where they are. So no wizards in the town to help get them back home. The king of the land has called people to help aid another kingdom, so the magistrate and a small NPC party were planning to answer the kings summons. They will take the PC's along with them to the next town which should have a wizard to help them out.

So the party consists of 5 lvl 3 pc's (dragon shaman, knight, gun mage, ranger, sorcerer) and 4 lvl 5 NPC's (2 healers, 2 paladins) and 1 lvl 9 paladin npc. The NPC's will just be with the PC's up to the next town and then part ways. So the group has 2 carriages to help travel. Along the way I wanted to have some orc's attack the party.

The plan was for a small orc warband to ambush the carriage (probably kill the horses then try to attack the parties). I figured 4 lvl 2 orc barbarians should do a good job with that. The orcs will hit hard but there is a lot of NPC healing nearby. The squisher members can hide in the carriage and still contribute to the fight. The orcs attacking the knight and dragonborn have just under a 50% chance to hit and should take 2-3 hits to bring them down.

Now I wanted something big leading the 4 orcs (and to distract the paladins). I was originally looking at an ogre mage. Figured it can specialize in brewing potions and raining down various concoctions during the fight. The mage would try to flee as soon as the fight starts to turn against the orcs. Most of the mages possessions are being spent on various potions to throw and more defensive items.

I was hoping people can give me thoughts on this plan.

[Dvil]

Hmm. Are there any more thoughts for the mage? I'm not seasoned veteran, but even I can see a potential recurring villain like that. In fact, he seems to have the potential to recur, while still being expendable enough for his accidental death to not be a massive problem for you. But as I say, I'm no veteran, so take that with a pinch of salt.

[wizuriel]

hmmm for fun going stat out the mage to specialize in potions, splash weapons and poisons. Can make the ogre into a LBEG if survives the fight. Paladins make good test subjects to test new concoctions on?

[AslanCross]

Question: Why are there as many NPCs as PCs, and why are they all above the PCs' levels? Are the players ok with having allies who are that much better than them accompany them like this? I've a feeling that they're going to end up smashing the monsters way before the PCs can do anything. It's something I'd recommend against.

NPCs would typically be there to only round out the party's capabilities. One healer is probably good, but a 9th level paladin in the middle of 5 Lv 3s and then some is not a good idea as far as I can tell.

You're going to end up throwing something way too strong at the party. The ogre mage out of the book is written as very annoying. It will be impossible to put down unless your party has the specific means to take it down. It can fly, regenerates, and has at-will invisibility. Even the 9th-level paladin will have a hard time dealing with it, if he can hurt it at all.

[wizuriel]

Question: Why are there as many NPCs as PCs, and why are they all above the PCs' levels? Are the players ok with having allies who are that much better than them accompany them like this? I've a feeling that they're going to end up smashing the monsters way before the PCs can do anything. It's something I'd recommend against.

The NPC's have their own objective (mainly going to support another kingdom, they are just travelling with the PC's). I don't want them to steal the show so trying to generate 2 fights in 1. I want the PC's and possible the 2 healers to take care of the barbarian orcs, and have the paladins fight whatever is leading them (yeah also feel the mage ogre might be too much).

The original plan was for the paladins to just distract the mage until the orcs fell, in which case the mage would flee. Though yeah between flight and invisibility that might be harder than expected. Maybe make a normal ogre for the paladins to fight and have something a little more subtle lead the group

way I went on stating out my world is giving different regions certain strengths. The kingdom they are in is one of the 3 strongest in the world which is why the NPC's are so high level.

[BooNL]

I have a sneaky suspicion you're playing 4e, so I can't give you any crunchy advice.

One idea could be to split the party up. As AslanCross mentioned, it's a bad idea to have 5 higher level characters hanging around with the PC's. It can easily degenerate in you describing how awesome the NPC's are killing the monsters, which ends in you playing DnD all by yourself while everyone is sitting around listening to it.

So what I suggest is having the monsters steal something/abduct someone. The NPC's rush after them and ask you to guard the caravan. Maybe one healer will stay with your group to make sure none of your PC's die, but it shouldn't be neccesary.

Now you can adjust the encounter closer to the PC's level and don't have to worry about the NPC's screwing everything up.

[AslanCross]

The NPC's have their own objective (mainly going to support another kingdom, they are just travelling with the PC's). I don't want them to steal the show so trying to generate 2 fights in 1. I want the PC's and possible the 2 healers to take care of the barbarian orcs, and have the paladins fight whatever is leading them (yeah also feel the mage ogre might be too much).

The original plan was for the paladins to just distract the mage until the orcs fell, in which case the mage would flee. Though yeah between flight and invisibility that might be harder than expected. Maybe make a normal ogre for the paladins to fight and have something a little more subtle lead the group

way I went on stating out my world is giving different regions certain strengths. The kingdom they are in is one of the 3 strongest in the world which is why the NPC's are so high level.

WOTC put up a lower-CR but more efficient redesigned ogre mage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a) that would be better suited to your use, but I still wouldn't recommend it going up against the party. It definitely wouldn't be as annoying as the original ogre mage, but its 6d6 lightning bolt would still tear a good chunk of HP out of the PCs. Use with caution.

What I'd do is just have the high-level paladins duke it out with the ogre mage with a scripted, predetermined outcome to avoid rolling so much dice needlessly. Stick to rolling the dice for the PCs and the monsters they're actually fighting.

Now IF the PCs actually started attacking the ogre mage, then things get dicey. These stats will be much easier to deal with, though.



I have a sneaky suspicion you're playing 4e, so I can't give you any crunchy advice.


Nope, he's playing 3.5. The ogre mage doesn't exist in 4E (it's called the Oni Lurker or something), and knight is a 3.5 class out of PHB2.

[Lapak]

On the one hand: I agree with the people worried about overshadowing the PCs. If you're splitting this into two fights, one that the players participate in and one where you run both sides and they get to be spectators, where is the fun for them in that? "Hey, look, that guy is much cooler than we are?" If the PCs can't affect the outcome, I'd forgo it entirely and have the high-level NPCs split off before this fight. Maybe then the players will remember them fondly, in terms of "darn it, why did we let that uber-Paladin wander off questing right before the bandits attack?" rather than "the DM is having a good time over there while we wait for our turn."

All of that said, I'd recommend a Big Pile of Hit Points to distract the NPCs if you want to run it that way. An appropriately-scaled Earth Elemental, perhaps, which can pop up and down in the battlefield and sink into the earth to escape when the battle goes against it. That will avoid frailty issues (whoops, the head Paladin got a lucky shot in on the Ogre Mage and wrecked it) while giving it the necessary mobility and tactical interest. Besides, I can't remember the last time I saw an elemental as a recurring villain or campaign BBEG; could be fun to play it that way if it escapes.

[jiriku]

My first impression is that if you build the encounter as described, only your great skill as a DM will allow you to avoid either 1) TPK or 2) NPCs stealing the show while the players are ineffectual.

The source of your trouble is the extreme strength of a raging orc barbarian, and the fact that every NPC is higher-level than the players. A crit from a falchion-wielding orc barbarian (assuming you go with standard gear for orcs from the MM) on a crit is approximately 30 damage - either you'll one-shot characters, or the amount of healing that the NPCs unload to keep them alive will make it obvious that they're only surviving the fight on the strength of their NPC helpers.

Possible ways to make this encounter challenging without making the players feel insignificant:

If you haven't firmly established the abilities of the NPCs, nerf them behind the scenes. First, reduce the healers and lesser paladins to level 2 and the paladin captain to level 5 - this makes the players a much more significant component of the defending force, so their actions are much more important. Second, draw off all three paladins and one healer to the other side of the battlefield, so the players have only one healer to support them. Next, reduce the strength of the orcs the players have to handle - three 1st-level barbarians with a 2nd-level barbarian leader is PLENTY difficult at low levels. If you feel that's too weak, consider replacing one or two of the 1st-level barbarians with a 1st-level druid w/wolf animal companion for a more challenging fight.

If the NPCs are set in stone or you don't want to change them, then draw ALL of the NPCs off so the players fight unsupported. Change the attacking force to a mixed group of two trolls and the four orcs. The NPCs are busy fighting the trolls while the players must confront the orcs as they dash past the main combat to attack the horses. Down-level the orcs as described above.

As mentioned by other posters, it's best just the handwave the battle between the NPCs and their paperweight opponents - that battle is mostly intended for color and drama, and sitting around while the DM rolls a whole bunch of dice against himself is boring for players.

[Paulus]

I was hoping people can give me thoughts on this plan.

For a new DM, I would go so far as to say you might be getting a tad complicated. This sounds like a lot to put into one encounter, that's a LOT to keep track of, So I think, perhaps... well honestly I would do two things.

1) split up the NPC's and your PC's. Have the PC's in one carriage and the NPCs in the other, when the orcs attack have the Ogre mage drop down and take out the NPC's carraige so they have to stay behind to fight a bunch of orcs, and just as the PCs are about to turn around to go back an help, the Ogre mage drops down to do the same to them. Trying to Kill the PC's on the run so to speak. Should make for an epic chase scene kind of thing, then you'll haeve less characters to deal with but more rules. Movement, etc. Plus it would open doors to allow the PC's to be more effective, and have more spotlight. Plus it gives you only the Ogre Mage to control, and possibly, the driver of the carriage.

2) Once the Ogre Mage is defeated, have the Pc's return to the Npc's and help mop up, but even then i'd have the NPC's having taken the brunt of the Ogre Mage's most powerful volleys, on the edge of defeat when the players who up, so they again feel important and helpful, especially to high level characters. This indebts the NPCs to the PCs for later, AND it earns THEM all the attention and thanks and glory etc.

At least that's my suggestion.