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Sir_Elderberry
2009-10-10, 06:00 PM
...but isn't a blaster wizard traditionally seen as pretty unoptimized? Doesn't the traditional "god" wizard control the battlefield from afar, winning battles without so much as a magic missile? And isn't this the sort of, ah, arcane power that V's starting to gravitate towards?

I doubt it comes to anything plot relevant, but it's an interesting double meaning if you think about the consequences of V's experiment with more direct "ultimate arcane power".

Trixie
2009-10-10, 06:05 PM
Unlike perfectly round wizard featured in number crunching, real wizards in real players hands are not unoptimized by being blasters. That's a myth. In fact, against properly played enemies, controllers are inferior.

Optimystik
2009-10-10, 08:31 PM
"Unoptimized?" It's perfectly possible to make an optimized blaster. A controller wizard just has more options on the battlefield than rolling d6es.

Also, Reflex saves.

Boci
2009-10-10, 08:38 PM
Also, Reflex saves.

And evasion. Plus the fact that the full attack of a dragon with 50hp is just as strong as when it had 300hp.

Trixie
2009-10-11, 04:23 AM
Which doesn't mean anything, as there are blasting spells that target other saves than Ref, spells with secondary effects shutting down enemies, and Massive Damage Death thing.

I'd like to see what battlefield control spells that would function against, say, a properly buffed group of Drow soldiers or Tucker's Kobolds :smallamused:

DrGonzo
2009-10-11, 04:36 AM
For the win, you'll need this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085).

Learnedguy
2009-10-11, 05:51 AM
Which doesn't mean anything, as there are blasting spells that target other saves than Ref, spells with secondary effects shutting down enemies, and Massive Damage Death thing.

I'd like to see what battlefield control spells that would function against, say, a properly buffed group of Drow soldiers or Tucker's Kobolds :smallamused:

What?! Intelligent Non-player characters?! HERESY!!

Anyway, personally when I DM, I avoided blaster wizards. It's too likely that I accidentally end up killing all of my players <.<;;

Controller wizards are better, because with minions, they become challenging without the risk of accidentally tpk:ing the whole party with a lucky AOE spell <.<;;

Morty
2009-10-11, 07:27 AM
Considering that V's and Xykon's method of spellcasting has never been mentioned to be "unoptimized", this is highly unlikely, and thank God. Last thing I'd want would be for the "Batman" philosophy to seep into OoTS.

Asta Kask
2009-10-11, 08:13 AM
Well, the horribly-overpowered blasters of my Age of Worms campaign do 75d6 in the first round (Time Stop + 3 Maw of Chaos), which is enough to slow most enemies down...

Kurald Galain
2009-10-11, 08:14 AM
But we do have Batman in OOTS... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)

theinsulabot
2009-10-11, 08:47 AM
while to a certain extant it would probably be good for V if he were to learn to make full use of the substantial arcane power he already has, with more utility and secondary spells, the batman idea is largely over rated. a well put together blaster wizard can be the same boon to the party that a batman wizard can, just in different ways.

Gametime
2009-10-11, 04:17 PM
while to a certain extant it would probably be good for V if he were to learn to make full use of the substantial arcane power he already has, with more utility and secondary spells, the batman idea is largely over rated. a well put together blaster wizard can be the same boon to the party that a batman wizard can, just in different ways.

Except that any wizard you could legitimately call a "blaster" has unnecessarily limited themselves to a specific subset of spells that, while useful, do one thing: damage.

There's nothing preventing a batman wizard (or ANY wizard, except perhaps one who has banned Evocation, Conjuration, AND Illusion) from blasting when appropriate. The whole point of the guide is not that blasting doesn't work; it's that it doesn't ALWAYS work.

A well-played wizard should be prepared to deal with a multitude of events. Usually, there are better things to do than blast, because if you properly inhibit your foes the fighter/rogue/whatever can do more damage than your spell would've, but there's a time and place for every spell in the spellbook. The trick is learning when to use each.

Kish
2009-10-11, 04:25 PM
A well-played wizard should be prepared to deal with a multitude of events.
See, this is the big problem with the "Batman Wizard" philosophy; its adherents, rather than treating it as "one way to play a wizard," characterize any other wizard as "not well-played" or similar pejoratives.

Vaarsuvius is an overconfident, egomaniacal wizard who loves blasting things. S/he is perfectly well-played, despite being very far from Batman.

Shale
2009-10-11, 04:32 PM
The problem here is that one person is using "well-played" to mean "optimized for combat effectiveness" and the other is using to to mean "well-role-played".

Optimystik
2009-10-11, 05:52 PM
I'd like to see what battlefield control spells that would function against, say, a properly buffed group of Drow soldiers or Tucker's Kobolds :smallamused:

But a pure blaster would have just as much trouble, if not more, in those same circumstances. Good luck packing fireballs, lightning et al. against Tucker's Kobolds.

A summoner or controller could at least have myriad ways of breaking their line of sight, sending in fodder (even specific types of fodder that are immune to the kobolds' tricks e.g. earth elementals to glide through walls to get at them or a solid fog in front of the murderholes.) The idea isn't that blasting is ALWAYS bad... but a wizard characterized as a "blaster" focuses too heavily

Compare to a wizard characterized as a "summoner" - they focus on one thing also, but that one thing is far more versatile thanks to SLAs. A controller is focused on "controlling," but there are myriad ways to do that, as well.


Vaarsuvius is an overconfident, egomaniacal wizard who loves blasting things. S/he is perfectly well-played, despite being very far from Batman.

I don't know about "perfectly well-played"; several of V's choices raise an eyebrow to me, such as preparing Heroism when a high-level bard is in the party.

Kish
2009-10-11, 06:23 PM
I don't know about "perfectly well-played"; several of V's choices raise an eyebrow to me, such as preparing Heroism when a high-level bard is in the party.
But downplaying or ignoring his/her companions' ability to contribute is part of Vaarsuvius' personality. Suddenly dropping it for a tactical gain? That would make him/her a poorly played character.

Prowl
2009-10-12, 12:41 AM
Combat effectiveness depends on your entourage and your opponents.

Teamed with effective physical damage dealers, a wizard can be most formidable casting spells which cause disabling status effects - sleep, confusion, hold person, silence, stun, etc.

A disabled enemy can't run, can't fight back, and can't defend. Thus a wizard who concentrates on disabling effects can help to end a fight a lot faster (and more safely) than one which tries to blast his way through.

Optimystik
2009-10-12, 06:59 AM
But downplaying or ignoring his/her companions' ability to contribute is part of Vaarsuvius' personality. Suddenly dropping it for a tactical gain? That would make him/her a poorly played character.

Oh, I understand now. You're referring to how well his character is played (roleplay effectiveness), and I was referring to how well he's played as a wizard (combat effectiveness.)

In your context, I agree :smallbiggrin:

SadisticFishing
2009-10-12, 11:12 PM
The main reason that blasters are characterized as bad is that non-wizards are so much better at damage.. Why not let them do that, and do what you're good at?