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View Full Version : Creating a Pelor-Based Irredeemable Villain and Racist



Leliel
2009-10-11, 01:21 AM
As you know from my "Evil In Love" thread, I hope to create a lycanthrope PCs game, where the werebeasts are an oppressed minority with the stigma of leprosy about them. They have any alignment, of course, more often then not just being scapegoats who want to be left alone more than anything.

I had always held the main "villains" of my campaign to be of the "mistakable for heroes" variety, and I have proof of that-when I posted the BBEG, Erebin Pullusia, more than a few posters were unhappy he was slated for the "bad guy" corner. One even suggested he be the "mentor" figure to the PCs.

So, I naturally had to create a truly monstrous character, so utterly vile that the very fact you're opposing him assures you that you're the good guy.

And given that most of the major characters, good and bad, are going to have a bit of a sympathetic connection to the moon, why not a priest of the sun?

And you know? I already had one!

Inquisitor Caelum is a cleric of Pelor who is responsible for most of the misery that turned Erebin from a noble knight into the lycanthropic Malcolm X he is today. Even when I was focusing on Erebin, he was a right old scumbag, murdering the poor guy's werewolf wife in front of him, not because of his dislike of lycanthropes-which he has, in great amounts-but because he was jealous of Erebin's success as a holy warrior and wanted him to commit suicide.

That's pretty much the bottom of the morality barrel to begin with, but I want the PCs to really loathe him as an individual-not only because they're the target of a genocide spearheaded by him (a hypocritical position at best, given that one of Erebin's first acts of revenge was infecting the Inquisitor with lycanthropy himself), but that Erebin's own terrorist group looks like saints in comparison.

To be fair, making the Moonlords look more like freedom fighters isn't all that hard-see comments about Erebin's morality above, and now realize that he attempts to apply his standards to everyone who works for him-but I want Caelum to be, simply put, scum who still works for a mostly benevolent sun god (who, if he knew of Caelum's depravity, would send him into the physical representation of his domain).

So, how would you role-play a light-based cleric who happens to be one of the evilest people in existence?

Grushvak
2009-10-11, 01:33 AM
If his fanaticism is such that he truly believes his cause so just that any tactic, no matter how devious, is usable, I'd have him go the Kefka route.

Have him eliminate a community, one Erebin is close to, through indirect means. Kefka poisoned the water supply in FFVI. As a real life exemple, we can think of Indians and the peace offering of smallpox. I'm sure you can think of something that would fit better in a fantasy setting.

And here's the kicker: said community harbored some lycanthropes, but there was also a good human population. He just went /that/ far in his hatred of Erebin.

Throw in a nice speech about how Erebin's very existence endangers those around him, and about how his loved ones will keep dying around him as long as he draws breath.

Just an idea, something to work with if it pleases you.

Rainbownaga
2009-10-11, 01:46 AM
Is this a reference to those 'Pelor is Evil' threads floating around a while ago?

Kylarra
2009-10-11, 01:51 AM
Frollo from hunchback of notre dame is a pretty good start. He's clearly on the side of the church, and also very clearly selfish, self-righteous and evil.

Leliel
2009-10-11, 02:12 AM
Is this a reference to those 'Pelor is Evil' threads floating around a while ago?

No.

Just a villain as within my particular story.

FoE
2009-10-11, 02:25 AM
Sounds like he'd be your typical Church of the Silver Flame zealot, a fairly common villain in Eberron. (A little too common; sometimes people forget the Church of the Silver Flame is supposed to be a force of good.)

A fairly obvious tactic to show that he's scum is to commit atrocities against lycanthropes. Considering they regenerate, there's a lot of horrifying tortures you can perform on lycanthropes without them actually dying; for instance, having them pulled apart by horses, or letting them hang from branches while you use them for target practice with silver arrows.

Another possibility is to attack communities where there aren't even lycanthropes, merely the suspicion of lycanthropes. Think of it as an "Inquisition". Each townsfolk or villager is forcibly removed from their homes and administered some grievous injury to "root out" the lycanthrope menace. If they resist, their home is burned down.

And if his own men are infected, even if they can be cured ... they should be executed. That, or he's willing to magically dominate infected soliders and force them to continue fighting, convincing them that is the only way to 'purge' their unholy taint.

In terms of personality, he should be your typical "holier than thou" type. He should be extremely arrogant and outright contemptful of anyone who doesn't follow the path of Pelor. The only reason that he isn't rooting out "unbelievers" is because he's got this lycanthrope purge to deal with.

Grumman
2009-10-11, 02:46 AM
So, how would you role-play a light-based cleric who happens to be one of the evilest people in existence?
Pick another god. Making him a cleric of Pelor makes no sense, because he is the antithesis of everything Pelor would look for in a potential cleric.

Random832
2009-10-11, 02:53 AM
Pick another god. Making him a cleric of Pelor makes no sense, because he is the antithesis of everything Pelor would look for in a potential cleric.
unless... (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate) :smallbiggrin:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-11, 03:48 AM
Note to self: Kill Random, he knows too much.

T.G. Oskar
2009-10-11, 03:55 AM
Pick another god. Making him a cleric of Pelor makes no sense, because he is the antithesis of everything Pelor would look for in a potential cleric.

unless... (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate) :smallbiggrin:

It had to happen. Someone would bring the Burning Hate into the play, what with all the evidence placed against him.

Fortunately I'm more of the Heironeous-and-Raziel kind!

Going serious this time, the Burning Hate suggestion is perhaps too akin to what you look for, but you might consider using the suggestion thrown elsewhere (and considered by Burning Haters as a heresy to the "true" Pelor) that the Pelorite faith is composed of two main sects; one that happens to follow a good, tangible Pelor and one that happens to worship the Burning Hate and that masquerade as clerics of Pelor. Caelum is someone that quite probably hasn't entered the Burning Hate sect, but must be wondering why he has still his powers while secretly holding desires of revenge.

Grushvak's suggestion is much too fitting for Caelus. However, make him someone that presents himself as a savior: let him send some kind of plague, tell the people the plague is a "punishment that should only affect those infected with the curse of lycanthropy", and bluff your way around telling the same people that some may have already fallen into lycanthropy. Offer free Remove Disease uses to the population (if possible, or just use scrolls for that) IF they accept Pelor's faith, but as a masquerade (even if, really, they have NO lycanthropy at all). Later, send squads saying it was too late for this town, and that "Pelor's grace has abandoned the town", dooming everybody to their deaths as "cleansing". By no means mention the Burning Hate (if you'll use the suggestion) just yet, just consider this will make the "talent scout" approve of his tactics, as he revels in dealing damage to people while bluffing around, screaming on top of his lungs "see?, Pelor is right, this town is doomed and it must be CLEANSED!!!". Bonus points if one of your players is a Pelorite cleric.

As FoE suggests, playing him as a cleric of a good faith while being irredemably evil stands much as what a cleric of the Puritan sect of the Silver Flame would do (heck, they actually held a lycanthrope purge, and took shifters with them because they "had the curse as well", even though Shifters lost their connection, if any, to the lycanthropes some time ago. In Caelum's case, while Pelor (the official faith, if you go with the suggestion) hasn't ordered a lycanthrope purge, he has the wholehearted belief that his god really has but that his fellows haven't heard the real word. His vision of the world must be two-sided, where only his opinion on the matter is worthwhile, and whom professes a "deep concern for the blindness of his fellow clergy, as they have been too blinded by Pelor's power that they have forgotten he speaks". Place him as a depraved lunatic whose facade is arguably better than his inner self, where he has deluded himself into thinking he's Pelor's favorite cleric and soon-to-be High Priest.

If you decide not to use the Burning Hate sect on your campaign, I might suggest placing him as an Ur-Priest that happens to duplicate spells of Pelor's domains, or a cultist of a fiend, or even a Cleric of Vecna that poses as a Cleric of Pelor. Ur-Priest has the advantage that you actually don't need to have a deity, and you mostly bluff your way: you can have him as an ex-cleric of Pelor and thus capable of knowing the ways of clergy while being a misotheist; a fiendish cultist may work if you suggest he follows an archdevil whose penchant may be for hypocrisy over anything else (and that's hard to work out when most archdevils are open hypocrites) Cleric of Vecna is harder to pull, but it still works if you intend to keep his alignment and faith a secret; it's hard because Vecna doesn't care about lycanthropes at all, and usually leaves them alone.

Another suggestion might be to make your campaign in Eberron, since what you suggest pretty much screams of Eberron; lycanthropes as a persecuted minority and that can take any alignment, a good church that has recently attempted to sever ties with a dark past, clerics that follow a good faith but that are secretly evil, a sect that still believes in the Purge and wishes to continue it again. If you aren't particularly keen with the magic stuff and whatnot, try doing it moments after the end of the Lycanthrope Purge and make it so that there's no Warforged, and where most of the advancements in magitek are underdeveloped (although you might suggest the trains at least). Focus on Thrane and the surrounding lands, ignore Karrnath at most and wander between Thrane and the Eldeen Reaches, where the Moonlords might be hiding.

Thurbane
2009-10-11, 03:56 AM
Maybe he could slip from worship of Pelor, and take to worshiping Zarus...publicly he maintains a facade of being a faithful worshiper of Pelor. Domains could be a problem, though. Ur-priest is another option.

FoE
2009-10-11, 04:10 AM
Another suggestion might be to make your campaign in Eberron, since what you suggest pretty much screams of Eberron; lycanthropes as a persecuted minority and that can take any alignment, a good church that has recently attempted to sever ties with a dark past, clerics that follow a good faith but that are secretly evil, a sect that still believes in the Purge and wishes to continue it again.

To be fair, for all the flak that the Church of the Silver Flames gets concerning the Purge, it was a necessary response to an alarming rise of evil lycanthropes. We're not talking about harmless civilians; these are beings who can turn into monsters. True, followers were over-zealous in hunting down lycanthropes and many shifters were unfairly persecuted. But there were also a lot of people saved from getting torn to pieces by werewolves and the like.

Philistine
2009-10-11, 10:00 AM
Pick another god. Making him a cleric of Pelor makes no sense, because he is the antithesis of everything Pelor would look for in a potential cleric.

+1. I understand what you're trying to do, but the game system isn't capable of representing the concept. "A cleric's alignment must be within one step of his deity's" and all that - the character you describe would have long ago lost the ability to draw power from Pelor, assuming he ever even started.

Kris Strife
2009-10-11, 10:19 AM
+1. I understand what you're trying to do, but the game system isn't capable of representing the concept. "A cleric's alignment must be within one step of his deity's" and all that - the character you describe would have long ago lost the ability to draw power from Pelor, assuming he ever even started.

Maybe he's instead drawing it from a demon, devil or yugoloth, though he still believes the power is coming from Pelor.

Maybe a few levels in those classes from Complete Scoundrel?

The Glyphstone
2009-10-11, 10:21 AM
But if Pelor's alignment is Neutral Evil, then he's fine.

If Pelor has to maintain his carefully crafted facade of goodness for the time being, though,there's always the classic plot of Mr. Cleric believing he still does Pelor's work, though Pelor has long forsaken him...but another, more evil-inclined god, has decided that much lulz will come of pretending to be Pelor while fueling McCleric with energy to keep doing horrible things.

Kylarra
2009-10-11, 10:21 AM
I like the secretly drawing from Zarus idea.


LONG LIVE LORD ZARUS

TelemontTanthul
2009-10-11, 10:40 AM
I keep thinking of a Hitler-based Paladin, someone who believes they are good, but in reality, is probably the most sadistic psychopath in existence.

With religion in the mix (him being a cleric), it is possible that he worships Pelor, OR a god that is PRETENDING to be Pelor.

In which case you have your answer right there.

Good guy + Misguided Actions +Acceptance of Actions as Good = Villian

It is a simple mathematical equation that many movies utilize.

If you want him to be positively LOATHED, just have the cleric "Purify" a village of humans or whatever, and make it so that not even the children escaped with their lives.

Things like that really tick people off.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-11, 11:43 AM
It's not unheard of for a god to grant another's spells.

For example, Ibrundil's followers have their spells granted by Shar.

Who's to say an evil god isn't granting spells to these fallen clerics, creating evidence of a burning hate, where none exists.

Indeed, the above villain could be one such as those. Granted power by an evil deity attempting to smear the name of Pelor.

Crafty Cultist
2009-10-11, 02:46 PM
Maybe he has already fallen from pelors grace, but an evil god or feind has begun to grant him power instead. he would probably be unaware of the transition himself, and would consider it blasphemy if suggested to him.

personality-wise make him absolutely sure of himself and covinced of the sanctity of his mission, justifying the actions he takes as being in pelors name, even if they are completely self-serving

Ubergeek
2009-10-11, 02:58 PM
I agree that it is perfectly reasonable for him to get his powers from another deity without realizing it.

Remember Kore from the webcomic "Goblins"? This is actually my theory behind him as well.

Perhaps you could make evidence that he doesn't get his power from Pelor. Perhaps, as the PCs infiltrate his organization, they discover overwhelming prove that there's a demon working behind the scenes. You'd have to be blind not to see it.

Well, either blind or really, really, close-minded and stuck up. Like him.

Coidzor
2009-10-11, 02:59 PM
Secretly a Zarusian?

Keld Denar
2009-10-11, 03:06 PM
Actually, rather than Pelor, look up Pholtus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholtus), the Oeridian god of Light, Resolution, Law, Order, Inflexibility, the Sun, and the Moons.

Clerics of Pholtus are fantatical, typically on a "smite first, speak with dead later" modus operandi. They believe that Pholtus is the one true path, and all other gods minor servants of Pholtus, if they even believe they exist. Non-humans are looked upon with major distrust. Fire and steel are their most common tools if inquisition. Their conviction is absolute, to the point that martyrdom is almost required indoctrination for most of the lower tier members.

Take a look through Canonfire (http://www.canonfire.com/) for more info about Pholtus and the Theocracy of the Pale, a country in Greyhawk run by the church. The High Theocrat in the Pale was EXACTLY like you discribed, and actually ended up being reveiled as evil (I think he was receiving spells/direction from Tharizdun, god of madness and annihilation). I'm not totally up to speed, since I didn't ever play Living Greyhawk in Southern Cali, so my knowledge is just what came out of core modules. It sounds like it would be PERFECT source material for you though!

Vic_Sage
2009-10-11, 08:09 PM
Drop the stupid **** "You must be one step away from your Gods alignment" bull**** and this will work fine.

Zaydos
2009-10-11, 08:17 PM
There's the whole cleric of an "ideal" idea which if it is allowed in your campaigns solves that right up, he has faith in Pelor and that he is following Pelor devoutly but he long ago lost Pelor's favor and it is only his own belief fueling his spells. It depends only on how dependent clerics are on their gods in your campaign: if they absolutely must draw spells from a deity and should they waver from its path they lose their spells find another source for his spells (I'd say Baatezu); if they can draw spells from belief in an ideal, or purpose, or etc, then no problem whatsoever.

Copacetic
2009-10-11, 08:46 PM
If you have read Terry Pratchet's Small Gods*, and rebounding of what other people have said, you could have the concept of him believing in the church of Pelor as opposed to actually Pelor.


*Do so, it's excellent and not quite as loopy as his other works.

Grumman
2009-10-12, 02:08 AM
Drop the stupid **** "You must be one step away from your Gods alignment" bull**** and this will work fine.
It's not stupid. Gods in D&D are sentient creatures who willingly grant some of their power to trusted followers. A god of good, healing and helping the common people isn't going to just hand over Gate and Miracle to some loony who is going to turn around and use it to screw over good people.

Bogardan_Mage
2009-10-12, 03:39 AM
Or just have an evil (or neutral) sun deity. You don't need to jump through "thinks he's worshipping Pelor but actually isn't" hurdles (unless you want to, of course) you can just make a deity that fits the criteria. Which may or may not share a name with the Neutral Good deity named Pelor.

Quincunx
2009-10-12, 04:52 AM
After scorching the earth around these villages which may, in the past, have ever played host to a werewolf for one night (pitch your divinations just right and the answer will always be Yes--by the way, any cleric-in-training who sees what you'll do with her answer, and tries to bluff, will be the first to die), slaughtering every inhabitant and domesticated animal, salting the fields where the blood fell and poisoning the well. . .for the sake of forgiveness. . .resurrect the dead. You'll have to sell off the villages' looted possessions for as much diamond dust as the village can afford, and perhaps only receive enough for a few inhabitants, but then you can settle them back in their cleansed, blasted lands, free of taint, with a magical compulsion never to leave the cleansed, blasted area. Merciful and without a penny of personal profit.

*****

If your world is spherical, there's a land at the poles where the sun never ceases to shine. A proper priest of Pelor is a pilgrim to those lands. What lives there, and what came back in the pilgrim's stead?

*****

Perhaps we're going about this the wrong way. Shedding blood is evil. Look on this board for the discussion of Coventry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109722) and Oracle Hunter's extremist defense of the inescapable prison. (I would recommend that, if you want board-based extremist examples, to restrict them to offerings from d20, homebrew, and perhaps media boards--the acknowledged areas of fantasy. Cherish that safety valve of "but it's only a game".)

bosssmiley
2009-10-12, 05:11 AM
I understand The Geek Timesink Site Which Shall Not Be Linked has a whole page of examples of "Light != Good", also pages on Knights Templar, Well-Intentioned Extremists, etc.

Isn't making the character a priest of The Burning Hate a little obvious though? How about a lycanthrope-hating priest of Snow White Elhonna?

Leliel
2009-10-12, 03:28 PM
Isn't making the character a priest of The Burning Hate a little obvious though? How about a lycanthrope-hating priest of Snow White Elhonna?

I don't know who that is.

And as for the "alignment" question, I was already intending this to be a "morally grey" game. Everyone has a reason to be good or evil-even if those reasons only make you hate them more.

You could say that the focus on lycanthropes is a metaphor for the theme of the campaign: That as the PCs walk on the border between day and night, so do they weave between the border of heroism and hatred, of altruism and selfishness-which, much as they themselves, are all not concepts necessarily singularly beholden to good or evil.

A great hero can base his deeds on his hatred for misery and those that spread it, while a terrible villain may only want to protect his friends and family from (perceived) threats. Ultimately, what makes you a bearer of kindness and joy or a soldier of hubris and misery is not what you are, but what you do.

From that, it isn't that much of a logical leap to dispense with the "one step alignment" rule.

Keld Denar
2009-10-12, 06:16 PM
Ehlonna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehlonna) for your reading pleasure. Another "good" goddess, she has domain over all that is pure and good in the forest. Thus, lycanthropes could be seen as an afront to natural nature, and a zealot might be inclined to purge them all, regardless of actual alignment or intentions, similar to a goodly number of themes in X-Men and similar stories in the genre.

At least thats what I gathered from bossmiley's post.

Philistine
2009-10-12, 07:47 PM
Drop the stupid **** "You must be one step away from your Gods alignment" bull**** and this will work fine.

No, that rule makes sense. For real, actual "stupid **** bull****," as you oh-so-cleverly describe it, see the paragraph describing how "a Cleric need not necessarily be a follower of a God." That makes no sense whatsoever.

Crafty Cultist
2009-10-12, 07:58 PM
Just a word of advice:

In a morally grey campaign PCs may disagree on which side to take. one character might sympathise with the suffering of the lycanthropes while another might see them as nothing but monsters

Leliel
2009-10-12, 09:34 PM
Just a word of advice:

In a morally grey campaign PCs may disagree on which side to take. one character might sympathise with the suffering of the lycanthropes while another might see them as nothing but monsters

But of course.

Then again, as I said in the first sentence of the OP, the PCs are lycanthropes (specifically, the infected variety, Erebin having used the cursed sword Antumbra on them to save their lives), so they're interpretation is going to tend towards the latter. If they did think all lycans were irredeemable monsters, they would go off in a corner and die.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-12, 10:47 PM
Frollo from hunchback of notre dame is a pretty good start. He's clearly on the side of the church, and also very clearly selfish, self-righteous and evil.

I think that might be leaning a bit towards the Disney version of him. Don't get me wrong, that's a great representation of what the OP is going for, but the Frollo from the book was slightly more sympathetic, and not quite as crazy.

He was just having problems trying to reconcile his holy vows with the lust he was feeling for Esmerelda because he didn't know how to handle it, instead of wanting to commit genocide against all the Roma in Paris and being willing to burn down the entire city to get what he wanted.

He also genuinely cared about Quasimodo, rather than in the movie where he treats the guy like an unwanted burden.

Like I said though, the Disney version of Frollo is an excellent springboard for the kind of villain this Inquisitor is supposed to be.

Kylarra
2009-10-12, 10:51 PM
I think that might be leaning a bit towards the Disney version of him. Don't get me wrong, that's a great representation of what the OP is going for, but the Frollo from the book was slightly more sympathetic, and not quite as crazy.

He was just having problems trying to reconcile his holy vows with the lust he was feeling for Esmerelda because he didn't know how to handle it, instead of wanting to commit genocide against all the Roma in Paris and being willing to burn down the entire city to get what he wanted.

He also genuinely cared about Quasimodo, rather than in the movie where he treats the guy like an unwanted burden.

Like I said though, the Disney version of Frollo is an excellent springboard for the kind of villain this Inquisitor is supposed to be.
Yes, I meant the Disney version, sorry for not making that clear.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-12, 10:52 PM
I thought so. Not a problem. :smallsmile: