Balrogs

[LOTRfan]

Hi everyone! I stumbled across this website while looking up monsters for my players to fight, and I love the comics. I saw the forums, and I think this might be an appropriate place to include 3.5 edition things. I am a huge Lord of the Rings fan, and I try to include monsters mentioned in the books into my D&D campaign. The current monster I am trying to introduce is the Balrog, a demon of fire and shadow. I created the statistics based on those of the Balor, with things like size, power, and Hit Die upgraded. I am just curious about what the Challenge rating is?

Balrog
Gargantuan Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 55d20+520 (1,100 hp)
Initiative: +17
Speed: 20 ft
Armor Class: 48 (+13 dexterity, -3 size, +28 natural armor), touch 21, flat footed 26
Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+56
Attack: +5 vorpal longsword, +5 flaming whip, +5 shadow mace, +6 axe of shadow, +53 melee (10d6+8)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft (25 with flaming whip)
Special Attacks: Fire Breath
Special Qualities: Flaming Body, Body of Shadow, Dark Vision 60 ft., Damage reduction 25/good, immunity to electricity, poison and fire, vulnerability to cold, resistance to acid, spell resistance 38
Saves: Fort +28, Ref +25, Will +24
Abilities: Str 47, Dex 37, Con 43, Int 35, Wis 35, Char 36
Skills: Balance +36, Bluff +36, Climb +41, Concentration +39, Hide -36, Intimidate +48, Jump +46, Move Silently -10, Spot +12,
Feats: Improved Initiative, Cleave, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Whip)
Environment: The Abyss
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating:
Treasure: None
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Advancement: 56-89 HD (Gargantuan) 90+ HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: ____

A gargantuan, lumbering darkness wreathed in flame. It is of man shape, only greater. Two long, curved horns protrude from its head, and massive wings spring forth from its back.

[Elfin]

Welcome! :smalltongue:

I'd probably just use an advanced balor; if you're going for a balrog like Durin's Bane. For one more fearsome, like Gothmog, I'd definitely advance it and probably add some class levels. If you're aiming for a balrog from Tolkien's early conceptions, where the Valaraukar number in the hundreds but are less fearsome than he later made them, I'd just remove some of the balor's HD.

Also- balrogs with wings?

[Claudius Maximus]

You should probably take this to the homebrew subforum.

At any rate, there exists a formula for advancing outsiders and calculating CR. You can find such information here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice), although the CR system is notoriously inaccurate.

[LOTRfan]

Thanks. I was thinking of Tolkien's concept of the seven very powerful ones, not the concept of the hundreds being slaughtered by two elves. And in the book, it was mentioned wings of shadow that spread across the chasm. So, from the statistics shown, what do you think the CR would be?

EDIT: Oh, thanks Claudius Maximus for the links.

[Elfin]

Whether balrogs have wings is one of the major points of contention in Tolkien's work; I'd say that at least originally he didn't mean them to, since one of the early drafts of The Fall of Gondolin has Gothmog riding on a dragon. Myself, though, I usually do picture them with wings.

[Glimbur]

Assuming it didn't run away, it looks like about a 10th level wizard could kill it safely, but expensively. Fly. Then use Orb of Cold repeatedly. Then wands of Orb of Cold until it's dead. I picked tenth level instead of fifth due to both WBL considerations and the fact that 1,100 hp would take some time to burn through so we might want more duration on the Fly spell. Of course, if you're willing to Alter Self to fly instead then WBL considerations for wands will hold you back.

As for actual CR guidelines assuming it's fought in a way it can fight back, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) has some suggestions.

[Myrmex]

Whether balrogs have wings is one of the major points of contention in Tolkien's work; I'd say that at least originally he didn't mean them to, since one of the early drafts of The Fall of Gondolin has Gothmog riding on a dragon. Myself, though, I usually do picture them with wings.

Knights have legs, but that doesn't keep them from riding horses.


Assuming it didn't run away, it looks like about a 10th level wizard could kill it safely, but expensively. Fly. Then use Orb of Cold repeatedly. Then wands of Orb of Cold until it's dead. I picked tenth level instead of fifth due to both WBL considerations and the fact that 1,100 hp would take some time to burn through so we might want more duration on the Fly spell. Of course, if you're willing to Alter Self to fly instead then WBL considerations for wands will hold you back.

As for actual CR guidelines assuming it's fought in a way it can fight back, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) has some suggestions.

Yeah, it's a push over for a well prepared caster (ie, schrodinger's caster, seriously, who carries around wands of orb of cold at level 10?). Even a rogue could kill it; look at its spot/listen. Against other melee (clerics & druids included), it is brutal.

[herrhauptmann]

Since lord of the rings is notoriously low on flashy casting like D&D (Even Gandalf used a sword to fight one), this is a decent monster I think. And LoTR is heroic fantasy, so roguish types tend not to do much in the way of combat besides provide a flank (like vs the Witchking).

I'm not entirely sure, but since the balor (I know yours is a balrog) has so many hit die and a high cr. If you decided to advance it with class levels, couldn't it immediately start with epic levels? Granted, I've never played/made an epic character, so my grasp of the epic rules is shaky.

[Random832]

I'm not entirely sure, but since the balor (I know yours is a balrog) has so many hit die and a high cr. If you decided to advance it with class levels, couldn't it immediately start with epic levels? Granted, I've never played/made an epic character, so my grasp of the epic rules is shaky.

You can take Epic feats beginning at ECL 21, you start the epic attack/save progression (instead of the normal one for each class) at HD 21. I'm not sure what you mean by "epic levels" - you mean the epic progressions of each class that don't do anything other than scale the abilities that they get every third level or so? No, that's not what they're for.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Knights have legs, but that doesn't keep them from riding horses.
If your wings spread from wall to wall in Khazad-Dum, is a dragon really going to be much of a benefit?

[The_Snark]

If your wings spread from wall to wall in Khazad-Dum, is a dragon really going to be much of a benefit?

Depends. If those wings turn out to be metaphorical mid-flight, you're going to feel really silly about not bringing that dragon along while you're falling to your death...

[kjones]

Also- balrogs with wings?

Oh no. What have you done?

We'll never hear the end of it now.

[_Zoot_]

Depends. If those wings turn out to be metaphorical mid-flight, you're going to feel really silly about not bringing that dragon along while you're falling to your death...

This is one of the funnest things that i have heard all day!!!:smallbiggrin:

[taltamir]

think of it as a status thing... kinda like how palquins means several slaves carry you on their shoulders so you don't walk... He could fly, he chooses to ride a dragon instead.

As for a 10th level wizard killing it... a 10th level wizard with just the right spell and equipment can kill anything. But it is highly unlikely that he would have all of those. This is a pretty tough monster.

[bosssmiley]

Take your base Balor and advance it with class levels in a meaningful PC martial class (either a ToB class, or a Races of War martial class). Administer joyous beatings.

Only in D&D fandom could people consider huge hulking volcanic fire demons to be 'not enough'. :smallamused:

[_Zoot_]

Only in D&D fandom could people consider huge hulking volcanic fire demons to be 'not enough'.

Nice, im putting that in my sig! (If thats ok)

[Myou]

Balrogs are cool.

Wings are cool.

Balrogs therefore must have wings. :smallamused:

[Athaniar]

Gothmog's law: any discussion on Balrogs (and indeed, most discussions on Tolkien in general) will inevitably bring up the debate on whether or not Balrogs have wings.

Also, I'd really like to see Ungoliant statted up. Might even do so myself.

[Milskidasith]

Why does it have so few feats? It has 55 HD, it gets a grand total of 25 feats.

[toasty]

Balrogs are cool.

Wings are cool.

Balrogs therefore must have wings. :smallamused:

But... but... this must mean that no human being is truly cool. :smalleek:

Personally, I don't care. If they have wings, great, if not, well... that's fine too.

[hamishspence]

I lean toward "ghostly shadowy wings that have no substance"

Given that Balrogs are most famous for falling (off bridges, off the tops of mountains, into deep chasms) this works quite well.

[Rad]

I lean toward "ghostly shadowy wings that have no substance"

Given that Balrogs are most famous for falling (off bridges, off the tops of mountains, into deep chasms) this works quite well.

This. Fast movement abilities are incredibly rare in Middle Earth (and for good narrative reason).

[Fluffles]

Balrog = Awesome.
Flaming Shadow wings = Awesome.
Dragon = Awesome.

Balrog with flaming shadow wings riding a Dragon = Well, there just isn't a word to describe the awesomeness of a Balrog with flaming shadow wings riding a Dragon.

But anyways, I'd thing that it would have spell resistance.

And note: There are no fly spells in LotR :smalltongue:

[AslanCross]

I don't want to add to the Balrog wings debate.

I think the Balor as written is already a pretty good representation for the Balrog, but if you really want to advance it, simply add hit dice. For Outsiders, the rule is that CR goes up by one for every 2 HD. Adding size increases also increases the CR by 1 for each category. Slap on the Elite Array for another 1 CR, or give it class levels (which automatically assume the Elite Array).

[hamishspence]

Diablo 2: To Hell and Back- is a 3.0 rulebook that has stats for creatures called Balrogs, that look somewhat like various depictions of the LoTR one.

[Optimystik]

I lean toward "ghostly shadowy wings that have no substance"

Given that Balrogs are most famous for falling (off bridges, off the tops of mountains, into deep chasms) this works quite well.

That, or they're just for show. "I'd totally save myself from this fall, but wouldn't want to strain the ligaments, you know?"

[Telonius]

Balrog clearly does not have wings.

http://media.strategywiki.org/images/a/a2/SSF2T_Balrog.gif

[Optimystik]

Balrog clearly does not have wings.

http://media.strategywiki.org/images/a/a2/SSF2T_Balrog.gif

But he can fly.

http://ui07.gamespot.com/678/vega_2.jpg

[Myou]

But... but... this must mean that no human being is truly cool. :smalleek:

And so, you are enlightened.

[bosssmiley]

But... but... this must mean that no human being is truly cool. :smalleek:

William Shatner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2ftCitvyQ)
Idris Elba (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0252961/)
Buzz Aldrin
Johnny Cash
Fonzie

[Myou]

William Shatner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2ftCitvyQ)
Idris Elba (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0252961/)
Buzz Aldrin
Johnny Cash
Fonzie

All monumentally uncool. :smallyuk:

[DrGonzo]

William Shatner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2ftCitvyQ)
Idris Elba (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0252961/)
Buzz Aldrin
Johnny Cash
Fonzie

You forgot Vincent Price..