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oxinabox
2009-10-11, 06:03 PM
What overall is the best favoured enemy?
I mean is specific situations others are better (eg my players knew they'ld be fighting alot of croem - they were escaped from the croems food herd of humans. so favoured enemy hamaunoid (croem) was great for them)
but are there somethat are almoust universally good, in all settings, no matter the dm?


I say favoured enemy construct.
Constructs are the dms but "screw you, her's something TOUGH".
great DR, and often great SR as well.
and Oh So Many HP.

what do you think?

Raltar
2009-10-11, 06:06 PM
Humans. With class levels, of course. Always a lot of those.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-11, 06:07 PM
Favored Enemy (arcanists), as per Complete Mage

herrhauptmann
2009-10-11, 06:09 PM
Dragons or giants. Dragons maybe not so much because they're usually boss monsters, so not very common.
But giants run the gamut from being in level 2 adventures, all the way up to mooks and bosses in level 18 fights.

For subtypes: Humans.
How many halfling or elven armies are bent on taking over the country where your characters are drinking? Now how about human armies? Bandit groups? Random thugs?

sonofzeal
2009-10-11, 06:16 PM
2nded for Arcanists.

After that, depends on your build. If you're going Swift Hunter, then I'd rank it Undead > Constructs > Oozes. Otherwise I'd rank it Humans > Outsider (evil) > Magical beast.

Iku Rex
2009-10-11, 06:20 PM
I would pick dragons or evil outsiders. (Also good choices for bane weapons.) They're smart and they have powerful offensive abilities. They need to go down as quickly as possible.

Doc Roc
2009-10-11, 06:44 PM
Favored Enemy (arcanists), as per Complete Mage

This. This-this-this.

Korivan
2009-10-11, 06:47 PM
Favored Enemy (arcanists), as per Complete Mage

Untill this, I though rangers sucked. But that logic stems from the fact that we don't tend to stick with any 1 or 2 types of creatures. But rather, grab a assortment from just about everything. Though I do love to throw piddling magelings at my players, just to harrass them at nearly every turn. This helped make one of my players rangers...almost helpful.:smallwink:

Starscream
2009-10-11, 06:47 PM
*Constructs. For reasons already mentioned.

*Humans. They so often turn up as villains and BBEGs

*Dragons. Very iconic monsters. Bound to turn up eventually.

*Undead. They're everywhere and likely to turn up at every level of play

*Outsiders (whatever alignment you most oppose). Also very common, and bound to be faced at some point.

Eldariel
2009-10-11, 06:47 PM
Best: Arcanists. Most of the really dangerous things count as Arcanists. So yeah, this.
Second-Best: Undead. You always run into high-powered Undead and high HP ones and so on, because most Undead-creatures are templates that can be applied to anything so they just are everywhere.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-11, 07:08 PM
What overall is the best favoured enemy?
I mean is specific situations others are better (eg my players knew they'ld be fighting alot of croem - they were escaped from the croems food herd of humans. so favoured enemy hamaunoid (croem) was great for them)
but are there somethat are almoust universally good, in all settings, no matter the dm?


I say favoured enemy construct.
Constructs are the dms but "screw you, her's something TOUGH".
great DR, and often great SR as well.
and Oh So Many HP.

what do you think?
Bah, Acid Splash (a cantrip) beats the SR automatically (SR: No) and hurts them.
Arcanist: lots of spells casters exist. Heck works on spell-like users like demons.
Giants can be common.

ex cathedra
2009-10-11, 07:13 PM
First: Arcanists, obviously.
Second: Evil, as per a certain PrC.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-11, 07:46 PM
Humans, if you're using the "human blood" extension for half-elves, half-orcs, & c. (I.e., if they're half human and half elven, they qualify as having both Elven and Human blood).

SoD
2009-10-11, 07:47 PM
Seconding undead. Early on, you'll be facing skelletons, and whatnot. Later on you'll be facing down that Demi-lich you've been after.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-11, 07:51 PM
Second: Evil, as per a certain PrC.

Specifically, Stalker of Kharash, from BoEF BoED. As a ranger, you need 8 ranks in Stealth, Alertness, and the Exalted feat Favored of the Companions. You get ranger spellcasting progression, full BAB, good Ref saves, partial Scent (1st-level), Favored Enemy: evil (2nd-level), HiPS (4th level), easier tracking of Evil (5th-level), and a little Smite Evil after that.

Eldariel
2009-10-11, 08:02 PM
Specifically, Stalker of Kharash, from BoEF BoED. As a ranger, you need 8 ranks in Stealth, Alertness, and the Exalted feat Favored of the Companions. You get ranger spellcasting progression, full BAB, good Ref saves, partial Scent (1st-level), Favored Enemy: evil (2nd-level), HiPS (4th level), easier tracking of Evil (5th-level), and a little Smite Evil after that.

Harper Agent gets it too, IIRC. From PGtF or something.

Zaydos
2009-10-11, 08:11 PM
I'd put in another vote for arcanists. Even high CR dragons qualify, as well as all those annoying wizards and sorcerers that get dropped on you. It might not qualify you for evil outsiders (they don't use arcane spells or invocations for the most part) but if you fight classed enemies then it's awesome. At low levels this applies to the annoying kobold sorcerer, at high it means you might as well have favored enemy dragon except against planar dragons and those with a template from MMIV, as well as being equipped against the deadlier templated undead (ghost sorcerer, lich, etc). So all in all Favored Enemy (Arcanist) is good.

Exempting it I find Dragon, and Outsider (Evil) both tend to be good choices but that might just be because I typically run a lot of dragons and demons.

Akal Saris
2009-10-11, 08:33 PM
Based on the campaigns that I've played in a lot, I'd say Evil > Humans > Arcanists > Giants > Undead > Constructs > Dragons > Other Stuff

It varies from campaign world and by module/adventure/DM pretty dramatically though. The Tomb of Horrors is unbelievably construct-heavy, while Dragonlance has a lot of dragons (and humans and undead!), and FR is heavy on arcanists. My own games have lots of giants and vermin in them, as I like running encounters against large, stupid foes.

My own swift hunter has +6 vs. humans, +2 vs. arcanists, +2 vs. constructs, but he was designed for a campaign world where humans are 95% of the races, and arcanists are rare but powerful. And the annoying thing is that immediately after I got up to +6 vs. humans, we started fighting half-orcs :P

oxinabox
2009-10-11, 08:34 PM
[QUOTE=Foryn Gilnith;7102220]Favored Enemy (arcanists)[QUOTE]

Favoured enemy arcanists's broken, broken broken.
it's so much better that the others you get fdavoured enemy towards:
a lot of dragons dragons (~80%)
Almost all Magical Beasts.
Almost all Outsiders (some get out of it by having only Su abilities)
A signicant number of Monsterous humanoids
All of humaniod (gnome)
A Significant number of humaniods in genteral

Ravens_cry
2009-10-11, 09:00 PM
Of all the core ones, undead, definitely. Sure, humans also turn up all the time, but humans don't have the racial immunities that make fighting them a bit dickish at times. Plus thematically, it's a win.
Car Heckbard, Undead Slaughterer.

Dixieboy
2009-10-11, 09:01 PM
I believe it is stated somewhere that you can take favored enemy (Organization).

So:

Favored enemy (Bad guys).

Xallace
2009-10-11, 09:03 PM
I believe it is stated somewhere that you can take favored enemy (Organization).

So:

Favored enemy (Bad guys).

I think that only works if you're the Flash.

Dixieboy
2009-10-11, 09:07 PM
I've always been convinced flash was one of those cheesy cleric builds and not a ranger.
You learn something new every day. :P

Eldariel
2009-10-11, 09:07 PM
Of all the core ones, undead, definitely. Sure, humans also turn up all the time, but humans don't have the racial immunities that make fighting them a bit dickish at times. Plus thematically, it's a win.
Car Heckbard, Undead Slaughterer.

In most of my campaigns (save for the low-magic one), Human enemies are quite rare since Humans usually aren't any more numerous than any of the other Humanoid-races, and are more rarely your adversaries than "Usually Evil"-races; I'd rather take Humanoid: Orc most of the time (or some Goblinoids).

Frankly, Monstrous Humanoids are more common in my experience ('cause it covers all). Though I may be crazy. And in the low-magic world, I'd definitely take Human. Then again, if you know a world is 95% Humans, getting FE: Human is kinda...meh.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-11, 09:30 PM
[QUOTE=Foryn Gilnith;7102220]Favored Enemy (arcanists)

Favoured enemy arcanists's broken, broken broken.
it's so much better that the others you get fdavoured enemy towards:
a lot of dragons dragons (~80%)
Almost all Magical Beasts.
Almost all Outsiders (some get out of it by having only Su abilities)
A signicant number of Monsterous humanoids
All of humaniod (gnome)
A Significant number of humaniods in genteral

Compared to other Favored Enemies, yes. Compared to Sneak Attack (which is vastly superior to Favored Enemy in terms of Damage), no. Compared to the spellcasters you will be using it against? YMMV, but a properly played spellcaster will mop the floor with any Ranger with FE: Arcanists. Even the Wild Shape Ranger variant doesn't cut it.




Favored enemy (Bad guys).

A Ranger PrC in the BoED gets you FE: Evil (everything). Close enough to call it that.

Dixieboy
2009-10-11, 09:37 PM
Ah, but that does not account for the paladin hecnhmen in the liches employ. (Illusions)

Glyde
2009-10-11, 09:42 PM
Humans, usually, but it depends on the campaign. Undead and constructs are good choices too.


Off topic, is anyone else's virus scanner going bonkers when browsing this thread?

Mando Knight
2009-10-11, 09:56 PM
Best: Arcanists. Most of the really dangerous things count as Arcanists. So yeah, this.

Like... the Dragons that are actually a threat. Oops. :smalltongue:

Doesn't help you against Solars or Pit Fiends, though, so Outsider is another one you'll want to look at if you're going to high levels.

sofawall
2009-10-11, 09:57 PM
No it isn't.

You may want to get that checked.

EDIT: @Glyde.

Glyde
2009-10-11, 10:05 PM
No it isn't.

You may want to get that checked.

EDIT: @Glyde.

Hrm. It's stopped... It was coming from an image. Ah well, thanks.

Golden-Esque
2009-10-11, 10:29 PM
Untill this, I though rangers sucked. But that logic stems from the fact that we don't tend to stick with any 1 or 2 types of creatures. But rather, grab a assortment from just about everything. Though I do love to throw piddling magelings at my players, just to harrass them at nearly every turn. This helped make one of my players rangers...almost helpful.:smallwink:

That's why I like PId6's Variant Favored Enemy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6799716&postcount=5). I didn't use most of the class, but I loved what he did with Favored Enemy. Really thinned it down.

bosssmiley
2009-10-12, 05:18 AM
Outsider (Evil), Aberration, Undead, or possibly Humanoid ([specific species]).

One of these is not like the others in terms of versatility and relevance across a broad level range, but I can't quite work out which. :smallwink:

oxinabox
2009-10-12, 10:38 AM
[QUOTE=oxinabox;7103156] Compared to the spellcasters you will be using it against? YMMV, but a properly played spellcaster will mop the floor with any Ranger with FE: Arcanists.

My problems isn't that it's too good agaists spell casters.
My problem is that it's goo agaist so mayny things.
anything with a spell like ability.

I think if it was limited to thigns with 4+ spell like abilites, or spellcasting then it would be more inline with the other FA's.

Ranger with FA arcanist, and Mageband (bane for arcanists) greatbow.
Should a be able to oneshot most wizards if it wins inititive.
which is should, dex is it's primairy combat stat.
of course the wizard coule play one of it's many Screw You cards and win ititive, but then a gain the wizardss proably fighting using his astsral projection anyway.
unoptimied Caster == optimised noncaster
Optimised caster>many gods.
totally unoptimsed caster == goldfish (depened on the caster, but if you screw up you sorc sellections...)

Cyrion
2009-10-12, 10:50 AM
I've always gotten good mileage out of starting with giants- as said before they're going to hit you at all levels- then evil outsiders. After that it depends on what the flavor of the campaign is. Aberrations and undead are common choices for me.

Tavar
2009-10-12, 11:01 AM
Actually, favored Enemy: Arcanist doesn't work against spell-like abilities besides invocations. And in any case, I've found favored enemies to be much to limited overall. Besides very specific campaigns(Red Hand of Doom or similar) you'll rarely encounter your enemies often, which means you lose one of your key features.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-12, 11:10 AM
My problems isn't that it's too good agaists spell casters.
My problem is that it's goo agaist so mayny things.
anything with a spell like ability.

Errata limited it to creatures with Arcane spellcasting abilities and Invokers (Warlocks and DFAs).


Ranger with FA arcanist, and Mageband (bane for arcanists) greatbow.
Should a be able to oneshot most wizards if it wins inititive.
which is should, dex is it's primairy combat stat.
of course the wizard coule play one of it's many Screw You cards and win ititive, but then a gain the wizardss proably fighting using his astsral projection anyway.
unoptimied Caster == optimised noncaster
Optimised caster>many gods.
totally unoptimsed caster == goldfish (depened on the caster, but if you screw up you sorc sellections...)

Magebane was nerfed in the MiC, and Wizards should never lose Init (they have the easiest access to Init boosters there is). If they did, something went wrong.

And no, a Ranger is not going to be able to kill even a mildly optimized Full Caster (I'm talking low-power optimization, not Incanatrix-level). The odds are just so heavily stacked against them that it looks like a bad joke.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-12, 11:12 AM
Magebane was nerfed in the MiC, and Wizards should never lose Init (they have the easiest access to Init boosters there is). If they did, something went wrong.

1) Damn. Magebane nerf makes me sad. :(
2) Never? Assume ranger has decent dexterity, 20ish. You need a +24 initiative modifier to never lose. That's not terribly trivial.

Paulus
2009-10-12, 11:13 AM
Somewhat amazed no one has mentioned Animals... just your regular animals. A ranger has every means to strike a Dragon with the best to his ability but has no clue about that bear, pack of wolves, or that rabbit.

Run away! Run away!

lsfreak
2009-10-12, 11:31 AM
Arcanists, for reasons mentioned.

Undead, because they are everywhere, and taking them as FE lets you apply precision damage (since one of two really good ranger builds are swift hunters).

Humans, because it's the default race your DM will likely use as mooks.

Really, though, I'd say condense Favored Enemy down. Go "Beast" (including animal, vermin, magical beast, dragon), Outsiders (all), Humanoid, Human-ish (giant + monstrous humanoid + fey), and Unnatural (undead + aberration + construct + ooze). Not sure where to stick elementals, maybe their own category. And maybe split Humanoid into two or three (say, goblinoid, reptilian, and everyone else).

On Initiative: The wizard at 17+ flat out never loses thanks for Foresight and Celerity. Earlier than that, say level 10, you have Nerveskitter + Improved Initiative + 4Dex + Warning Weapon for +17 modifier, off the top of my head. In lower point-buy Dex will be lower, but still at least a +15 mod.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-12, 11:36 AM
1) Damn. Magebane nerf makes me sad. :(
2) Never? Assume ranger has decent dexterity, 20ish. You need a +24 initiative modifier to never lose. That's not terribly trivial.

Let's see... I'm only using WotC products here, so no Humming Bird. But even without that:

Improved Init (4)
+1 Warning Spiked Gauntlet (5)
Nerveskitter (or Moment of Prescience) (5 or 20, whichever is used)
Dex of 20 (5)
Base roll of 10.

Average Init of 29. Humming Bird ups this to 33. Shape Soulmeld (Bluesteel Bracers) adds another 2, but you only take that if there's nothing else better. Leadership for a Marshal cohort with Motivate Dexterity gets +Cha mod. A 3 level dip into Factotum gets Int to Init (3 levels hurts though).

Or you just cast Shapechange before the battle and turn into a Dire Tortiose, then take your Surprise round without him getting an action. Or Celerity. Seriously, there's a lot of tricks to make Init the Wizard's slave. The first 4 are the most commonly used, the rest is overkill. Especially Shapechange.

Iku Rex
2009-10-12, 12:37 PM
Off topic, is anyone else's virus scanner going bonkers when browsing this thread?It was. (Avast!)

I believe it was set off by Doc Roc's .png avatar.

Doc Roc
2009-10-12, 12:55 PM
Favored Enemy (arcanists)

Favoured enemy arcanists's broken, broken broken.
it's so much better that the others you get fdavoured enemy towards:
a lot of dragons dragons (~80%)
Almost all Magical Beasts.
Almost all Outsiders (some get out of it by having only Su abilities)
A signicant number of Monsterous humanoids
All of humaniod (gnome)
A Significant number of humaniods in genteral

You asked for the best favored enemy. We gave it to you.

Doc Roc
2009-10-12, 12:56 PM
It was. (Avast!)

I believe it was set off by Doc Roc's .png avatar.

Let me go permanently resolve that.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-12, 01:39 PM
Improved Init is available to both. Nerveskitter is only a +5. Moment of Prescience is too high-level to be universally applicable, as is Shapechange. The gauntlet and the marshal is a trick the ranger can also pull off. IIRC Celerity cannot be enacted surprised/flat-footed.
So until Moment of Prescience, you're only packing a +9 to init versus the ranger (best-case; if he has a better dex and also Improved Initiative you might be as low as +2 versus his). Hardly a universal win.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-12, 01:56 PM
Improved Init is available to both. Nerveskitter is only a +5. Moment of Prescience is too high-level to be universally applicable, as is Shapechange. The gauntlet and the marshal is a trick the ranger can also pull off. IIRC Celerity cannot be enacted surprised/flat-footed.
So until Moment of Prescience, you're only packing a +9 to init versus the ranger (best-case; if he has a better dex and also Improved Initiative you might be as low as +2 versus his). Hardly a universal win.

Combat Reflexes, as useless as the feat is for a Wizard, allows Immediate actions while Flat-Footed. This allows Celerity.

Zaydos
2009-10-12, 02:01 PM
Combat Reflexes, as useless as the feat is for a Wizard, allows Immediate actions while Flat-Footed. This allows Celerity.

Which book is this in? I know Combat Reflexes is in the PHB before Immediate actions were introduced, so which book modified it that way?

Although Foresight does mean a Lv 17+ wizard can make himself never flat-footed but that takes up one of his broken 9th level spell slots.

Willis888
2009-10-12, 02:05 PM
Ignoring the Arcanist cheese, I'd say Undead followed by Constructs followed by Elementals. Mostly because they are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, so any alternate way of increasing damage dealt against them helps.

J.Gellert
2009-10-12, 02:09 PM
Undead gives you more, because there are so many of them (really varied monster type) and they do tend to come up often. That's what I'd always pick if I was going blindly in a game.

Otherwise, and if you are evil, then obviously, humans, as you'll be seeing at least a few of them no matter the DM.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-12, 02:27 PM
Which book is this in? I know Combat Reflexes is in the PHB before Immediate actions were introduced, so which book modified it that way?

Although Foresight does mean a Lv 17+ wizard can make himself never flat-footed but that takes up one of his broken 9th level spell slots.

Looks like I misread the feat. Nevermind it, it only allows you to take AoOs while FFed.

oxinabox
2009-10-12, 06:18 PM
Improved Init is available to both. Nerveskitter is only a +5. Moment of Prescience is too high-level to be universally applicable, as is Shapechange. The gauntlet and the marshal is a trick the ranger can also pull off. IIRC Celerity cannot be enacted surprised/flat-footed.
So until Moment of Prescience, you're only packing a +9 to init versus the ranger (best-case; if he has a better dex and also Improved Initiative you might be as low as +2 versus his). Hardly a universal win.

precisely.

Why woulth tthe wizard carry


lets assume wizard lvl 10, noone is mad enough to try to go toe-to-toe with someone wileding 8/9th lvl spells.
Celerity, and nerveskitter was what i ment by wizards playing one of there many screw you cards.
Why is one of my minor class feature (as single spell) better than some feats?


Now if the wizards Dex is +5, and since he's a wizard his Int will also be +5.
the for nothing else is significantly above 10.
No spot, Bad Sqaves (other than will).
He has 10d4 HD + 0 Con mod (maybe +1 - or +2 if He's dumped everything else and is on High pointbuy, and is using mgic items to get his Int and Dex so high) That's MAX 40 hp.

(ranger with +1 +2 mighty magebane compostite greatbow)
Ranger Gets one shot in during surpise round, wizard can't touch that move silently, or hide.*
Assuming wins initive, which we've shown is proably little better than 50:50.
the ranger has got 2 arrows in with greater manyshot in the surprise round.
another 3 more during the FF round.
so he's done about 5*(1d10 +2 (STR) +2 (FA) +2d6 (magebane) + 1 (magic bow))

Now lets say the ranger made use of some of the poisioning feats,
maybe even maximised, hightened save DC poisions. (i can't rememebr what book there from, CompSc has poison use)
wizard need to make 5 fortitude saves, we've already covered what his con's like.
He fails some, oh dear whatever happened to you consitution, your wisdomj? it apears to be down to what, 3, easilly with how bad his fort saves are.
Couple more say wisdom damaging poisions and he is as good as dead, if the arrows them selves don't kill him.
This is in the first round of combat.
I don't think the ranget will die during the wizarsds turn.
(with his spot, verses the ranger hide, it's not impossible that he managed to Snipe even at -20)
still the wizard proably lests out a empowered fireball to be safe:
1.5*10d6, ref for half...

* (unless he's go tsome kind of makic that allows him to the see the future, like, i don't know, some kind of divination.)

shadow_archmagi
2009-10-12, 06:30 PM
precisely.
whhat wai wud wizerd has hi INTI?


This debate is ultimately pointless, since the thread is about favoured enemies.

I don't know about your games, but I find Giants are pretty scarce. I don't think I've ever actually fought one.

Undead, on the other hand, are pretty much a given.

Every DM I've met has made Humans a pretty popular choice too though.

holywhippet
2009-10-12, 07:15 PM
It really does depend on what kind of campaign the DM is planning to run. If it's the heroes vs. an invading army of orcs then your decision has pretty much been made for you. Of course that assumes you know what the campaign is going to be about in advance - you could be ready for an orc horde only to find you will be facing trolls instead.

In the current campaign I'm playing in we've faced humans, undead and grey oozes so far. Humans and undead seem to be the main two opponents though.

DSCrankshaw
2009-10-12, 07:42 PM
My vote's for undead of the PHB choices. As others have said, they're common through all levels, and since they're immune to a lot of effects and criticals and sneak attacks, you're helping the party overall, filling in when the others are having trouble.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-12, 07:59 PM
still the wizard proably lests out a Windwall.


Ranger loses, end of discussion. If the wizard gets even that one spell off, the Ranger can't mess with him. At all. Also, you are assuming so many things wrong that it isn't funny (Wizard with 10 Con, and a 20 Dex for starters).


The original point I made still stands though: FE (Arcanists) is not overpowered. Not by a freaking mile.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-12, 08:08 PM
Combat Reflexes, as useless as the feat is for a Wizard, allows Immediate actions while Flat-Footed. This allows Celerity.

2 levels of Scout do this. But not CR, it just allows AoO.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-12, 08:37 PM
Ranger loses, end of discussion. If the wizard gets even that one spell off, the Ranger can't mess with him. .

Well, yeah. But there's a chance that the ranger could be optimized. Full attack+magebane+skirmish+etc. could maybe one-shot the wizard. Maybe.

The problem isn't FE (arcanists), though, I'd say. 2 damage is sort of piddly. The fact that it applies only against casters, those most likely to have counters to you, puts a big damper on its utility.