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View Full Version : Fallen Paladin-> Blackguard



Kylarra
2009-10-11, 11:15 PM
Blackguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm) allows you to trade in levels of paladin for levels of blackguard if you have 11 or more paladin levels. This means that you could be a level 20 blackguard pre-epic.

So, as a DM, how would you progress the blackguard class?

or would you just push them into one of the slaughter/tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) variants?

Random NPC
2009-10-11, 11:17 PM
You only gain features if lower than 11th level. After 11 you trade levels.

A level 20 Paladin that falls will end up as a Paladin 10/Blackguard 10

Kylarra
2009-10-11, 11:20 PM
You only gain features if lower than 11th level. After 11 you trade levels.

A level 20 Paladin that falls will end up as a Paladin 10/Blackguard 10
Both the DMG and the SRD wording seem to contradict that. In particular this quote
The character level of the character does not change. With the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin. would not be necessary if you could only trade down to 10, and the description in the DMG speaks of a level 12 paladin immediately gaining 10 levels of blackguard, I am just taking that statement to its absurd extreme given that we have rules for the epic progression of PrCs.

Of course I do realize that technically you only have 10 levels [max] in a PrC pre-epic, but it's still an amusing thought.

huh, amusing addendum, technically if you no longer qualify for blackguard without the paladin levels, do you spontaneously lose all special abilities until you gain enough BAB?

Crafty Cultist
2009-10-12, 01:17 AM
Your base attack bonus would stay the same so you would still qualify.

in the epic level handbook it states that you must have at least 21 levels in ex-paladin to gain more than 10 levels in blackguard

Kylarra
2009-10-12, 01:22 AM
Your base attack bonus would stay the same so you would still qualify.

in the epic level handbook it states that you must have at least 21 levels in ex-paladin to gain more than 10 levels in blackguard
I went to check since you mentioned it, it only requires you to have character level 21st, which means you could actually be a blackguard 20/Paladin 1 (or some other class probably since that paladin level is useless to you) at level 21. Interestingly enough, this would net you 3 more epic feats at level 21. :smallbiggrin:

Bogardan_Mage
2009-10-12, 02:50 AM
Both the DMG and the SRD wording seem to contradict that. In particular this quote would not be necessary if you could only trade down to 10, and the description in the DMG speaks of a level 12 paladin immediately gaining 10 levels of blackguard, I am just taking that statement to its absurd extreme given that we have rules for the epic progression of PrCs.
Nobody said you could only trade down to ten, they said you could only trade up to ten. Pre-epic, you can only have ten levels of Blackguard. So a level 12 (fallen) paladin who takes a level of blackguard and trades in her paladin levels becomes a Paladin 3/Blackguard 10, not a Blackguard 13.

In epic levels, at least by RAW, a level 20 paladin who takes a level of blackguard and trades in his paladin levels can become anywhere up to Blackguard 21.

This is my understanding, at least.

OldTrees
2009-10-12, 11:14 AM
So, as a DM, how would you progress the blackguard class?

I would progress it as the EPH progresses it, from 11-infinite.

So a level 21 Paladin could trade all their levels and become a level 21 Blackguard.

Dragonmuncher
2009-10-12, 11:22 AM
Nobody said you could only trade down to ten, they said you could only trade up to ten. Pre-epic, you can only have ten levels of Blackguard. So a level 12 (fallen) paladin who takes a level of blackguard and trades in her paladin levels becomes a Paladin 3/Blackguard 10, not a Blackguard 13.


This.

Also, you don't HAVE to trade the maximum. That is. If you were a Paladin 12, and fell, you could just be a Fallen Paladin 7/Blackguard 5, or a Paladin 9/Blackguard 3, or whatever. You get some neat abilities that way.

Telonius
2009-10-12, 12:00 PM
Blackguard 6-10 isn't really that spectacular either, so it's often better to only trade 5 levels and retain the bonuses for Fallen Paladin levels. Then, take levels of Knight or (name your full-BAB class).