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Lysander
2009-10-12, 01:28 PM
Here's another useful divination cantrip:

Ping
Divination [sonic]
Level: Brd 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 foot cone
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You utter a short high pitched ringing noise for the purposes of echolocation. A visual image is painted in your mind of things in the spell's area of effect. This functions exactly like Blindsight except the impression is a still image taken at the moment of casting. The ping is loud enough to give away your general position to everyone within 60 feet in all directions. Like normal echolocation a Silence spell blocks Ping from functioning.

Material
Small piece of bat fur

Kobold-Bard
2009-10-12, 01:43 PM
At mid levels before thing's like True seeing become permanent this would be a great quickened spell for finding the invisible.

Cedrass
2009-10-12, 01:59 PM
Somehow this feels extremely powerful for a cantrip.

Knowing where everything is within 60ft means you know there's something under that floor (a trap) for exemple. Or someone hiden. Or an illusion (since you won't get the Ping from it).

I know everyone within those 60ft hear it, but I'm not sure it's enough of a counter for all the info you can gain.

sonofzeal
2009-10-12, 02:07 PM
For a 1-round True Seeing? Might be a bit much. Would be fun as a 5' radius, centered on you.

Myou
2009-10-12, 02:10 PM
Should be level 1 at least.

Lapak
2009-10-12, 02:10 PM
Somehow this feels extremely powerful for a cantrip.

Knowing where everything is within 60ft means you know there's something under that floor (a trap) for exemple. Or someone hiden. Or an illusion (since you won't get the Ping from it).

I know everyone within those 60ft hear it, but I'm not sure it's enough of a counter for all the info you can gain.Blindsight still needs line of effect, so you're not going to catch a trap under the floor if I understand how things work. It does reveal hidden creatures, but you have to spend your standard action to do it - so catching an ambush with this would be blind luck and using it to negate Blur or Displacement would require either Quickening it or having some way to get another action, both of which are significant costs. On top of that, while everything within 60 feet hears you, you only get a 60 foot cone of vision.

Assuming that the same limitations talked about for Glimpse apply (extending the duration extends the ability, but you still have to spend a standard action to use the ability) I don't think it's a bad thing.

Eloel
2009-10-12, 02:13 PM
With Instantaneous duration, you can't extend the duration.

Zaydos
2009-10-12, 02:15 PM
I'd say it still is noticeably better than glimpse because blindsight is a more all inclusive ability. Then again blindsight is not as good as true seeing either, but still rather strong compared to glimpse.

Cedrass
2009-10-12, 02:19 PM
Blindsight still needs line of effect, so you're not going to catch a trap under the floor if I understand how things work.

It seems you are right about this. My bad.

Even though, I still think it's too strong for a cantrip. It's a first level spell in my opinion.

Lysander
2009-10-12, 03:09 PM
Somehow this feels extremely powerful for a cantrip.

Knowing where everything is within 60ft means you know there's something under that floor (a trap) for exemple. Or someone hiden. Or an illusion (since you won't get the Ping from it).

I know everyone within those 60ft hear it, but I'm not sure it's enough of a counter for all the info you can gain.

One possibility is to make any illusion that matches its image with sound effects fool Ping and appear as a real object. Or make the range shorter, so that a person suspecting an illusion could also just throw a pebble or something at it at the same range.

edit: come to think of it, Dancing Lights could also be used to test for illusions. Just send them at the illusion and if they pass through you know it's fake. And that has a minimum 110ft range.

Part of the limiting factor is that you can't see any movement, this just provides a still image. So if you Ping to see a concealed or invisible person they can move before your next turn, and Ping won't let you see where they move.

Eloel
2009-10-12, 11:46 PM
Give this as a free (or swift) action at-will to bats/bat swarms. Seriously, they need it.

Lysander
2009-10-13, 09:27 AM
Give this as a free (or swift) action at-will to bats/bat swarms. Seriously, they need it.

Bats already have natural echolocation.

Madra Rua
2009-10-13, 10:29 AM
I think the range might be a bit much. maybe downsizing it to 30 feet would make it much more reasonable. I like it. :)

lesser_minion
2009-10-13, 10:40 AM
As long as this spell can't be spammed all day, I think it's probably balanced as it is, although it might want a reduction in range. If someone finds a way to get unlimited uses, it would start causing problems, however - a cautious party could certainly be willing to cast this spell every other round.

The only other problem I can see is that I actually thought this would be a spell for testing magical forms of communication, similar to the real-life 'ping' command.

Ashtagon
2009-10-13, 11:12 AM
Make it have a range of five (possibly ten) feet, no more.

The whole point of 0th level spells is that they aren't generally useful in dangerous situations.

Lysander
2009-10-13, 11:38 AM
Make it have a range of five (possibly ten) feet, no more.

The whole point of 0th level spells is that they aren't generally useful in dangerous situations.

What if it was ten feet but in every direction rather than a cone?

Icewalker
2009-10-13, 02:42 PM
Thing is, if you're casting it every other round, that's a standard action constantly, so it'd be hugely limiting, and everyone around would know you're there before you reach them. I think perhaps rather than reducing the range, you could increase the hearing radius.

Lysander
2009-10-13, 03:26 PM
Thing is, if you're casting it every other round, that's a standard action constantly, so it'd be hugely limiting, and everyone around would know you're there before you reach them. I think perhaps rather than reducing the range, you could increase the hearing radius.

Ultimately what I think keeps the spell balanced is that you have to know to use it. This doesn't let you see invisible and hidden creatures, it lets you see them if you already know they're there.

And once you see them it's too late to attack. You've spent your turn. The main use is to cast it and then tell your allies where to attack, but the creature would still have concealment on their side. And on their next turn they'd move and you'd lose their position.

Another reason to cast it is just to figure out what the heck is attacking you.

Rainbownaga
2009-10-13, 03:33 PM
If you used it as a quickened action, would an invisible target still benefit from the 50% concealment rate? I think so.

So even if you could quicken it, it's still not particularly powerful. Sure, you could identify the location of targets for your team to pounce on, but you could achieve the same thing much easier with the right choice of animal companion without wasting level 6 slots or standard actions.

Gorgondantess
2009-10-13, 06:24 PM
...I really don't see how this is too powerful for a 0th level spell. 1st things first, when it's used, it's a standard action. Which one would be better in a combat situation, using it to see if there's something in front of you or greasing your enemies?
On top of that, it's not like a 1-round true seeing. You just know something's there; it still gets full concealment against you, even if you manage to quicken the spell.
I think it's wonderfully balanced. THe point is to make a semi-useful cantrip; I think this did that wonderfully.

DracoDei
2009-10-14, 12:58 AM
Seems balanced to me... especially given the existance of Glitterdust, only two levels higher.

Cieyrin
2009-10-14, 10:28 AM
I agree that it's fine, as it basically lets you have a better chance of pinpointing targets, rather than blindly feeling around for them. Send your allies in and call it a day.

Talya
2009-10-14, 10:34 AM
Needs the qualifier that this spell cannot be combined with the metamagic feat "Silent Spell."

Pie Guy
2009-10-14, 02:33 PM
Needs the qualifier that this spell cannot be combined with the metamagic feat "Silent Spell."

Why not? The high pitched noise isn't part of the description, it's part of the effect.

ericgrau
2009-10-14, 03:58 PM
Quickened ping, fireball (or an AoE save-or-____). It's not OP for many uses but it's too easily breakable beyond what should be mere cantrip power.

Asheram
2009-10-14, 04:06 PM
Remember aswell that this is quite useful for finding disguised people, since you'll get their true shapes through the ping. As long as it's an illusionary disguise and not mundane or Alter Self

Dragonmuncher
2009-10-14, 04:18 PM
Remember aswell that this is quite useful for finding disguised people, since you'll get their true shapes through the ping. As long as it's an illusionary disguise and not mundane or Alter Self


Would it? Blindsight doesn't let you see through illusory disguises.

Cedrass
2009-10-14, 04:37 PM
Would it? Blindsight doesn't let you see through illusory disguises.

Yes it would since you get the actual image of the person. Now imagine a halfling making himself look like a human with an illusion. YOu use Ping and you now "see" the shape of a halfling, not a human.

Lysander
2009-10-15, 10:11 AM
Yes it would since you get the actual image of the person. Now imagine a halfling making himself look like a human with an illusion. YOu use Ping and you now "see" the shape of a halfling, not a human.

Perhaps Ping should only provide vague outlines of shapes? For example, a wall and a bookshelf would look the same. And it might be hard to tell the difference between a human and a halfling.

Lysander
2009-10-15, 10:42 AM
The idea could be that you are viewing the world with a "nearsighted" form of Blindsight, so things are unclear.

Zaydos
2009-10-15, 10:53 AM
blindsense; it's a weaker form of blindsight. Tells you where things are and general form but not their exact shape, or nature. Creatures retain concealment, though (you know what square but not exact location).