M&M?

[Neon Knight]

So recently, I was looking for a system to run modern/present day setting material in, having grown tired of D20 Modern's quirks, and one of my good friends recommended Mutants and Masterminds. It's a system that I tend to hear a lot of good about and get frequent advocations for.

I'm not too interested in M&M's primary focus of superhero games, but am interested in potentially using it for other styles of games, and I've read in numerous places that is is flexible enough for such purposes.

Typically, I used D20 Modern for games with characters at power levels similar to movie action heroes or lower, taking cues from things like Resident Evil or Silent Hill.

I was wondering what people's opinions of the system were, and if it was suitable for what I described.

[Matar]

IT IS FREAKING AWESOME.

It's extremely flexible. I mean, christ, you can be a god damn flying toaster that shoots laser beams. AND MAKES TOAST.

Character Creation can be difficult, and it requires a DM's touch, but still. Playing is also real simple, as it uses a 1d20 for everything.

Still, it's extremely flexible. Has a great system for doing things. And it can be used for anything. So yeah, it's awesome.

[Xallace]

IT IS FREAKING AWESOME.

Amen! Preach it, brotha'!

Jah, M&M is my favorite system hands-down. Just start your game at a lower level than recommended, and you should easily have action-hero-y characters. Maybe PL 3-5.

[Break]

IT IS FREAKING AWESOME.

It's extremely flexible. I mean, christ, you can be a god damn flying toaster that shoots laser beams. AND MAKES TOAST.

If this doesn't convince you that it's awesome, I don't know what will.

[Zeta Kai]

M&M is basically a d20 total conversion that fixes a LOT of the inherent problems with the d20 system, vis a vis the core rules. It's awesome, flexible, logical (within certain genre conceits), fun, true to its source, & above all, awesome. Did I mention that it's awesome? Because it's totally awesome.

Also, I was curious as to what you meant when you said that you were chased off of D20 Modern by its quirks. What quirks annoyed you? It might help to determine what kind of game would best appeal to you.

[Tengu_temp]

M&M is a very, very flexible system - I have never played a straight superhero game in it. It's bad only for typical DND-style dungeoncrawls, where the focus is on gathering treasure and magic items, and for very gritty games. Although the latter might be doable with a very low PL campaign, with guns not counting towards the PL cap.

[Indon]

It's bad only for typical DND-style dungeoncrawls, where the focus is on gathering treasure and magic items, and for very gritty games.

I dunno. I think you could manage the first with extensive use of the Device mechanic, and the second just requires low-powerlevel characters with a bit of restriction on availible powers.

[awa]

the only problem with mutants and masterminds in regards to non superhero modern games is gun are pathetically weak a decent strength (not superhuman) character can throw a boomerang harder then most guns also when you start going to low pl characters cant both use a gun and be a skilled fighter not counting guns towards the pl limit would solve both problems.

That said even though i love the system its not for everyone some pepole cant get their heads around the idea that your supposed to work with the dm to fit into the system or the complete open ended nature of a point buy system.

[Demons_eye]

Easy way I see fixing the gun problem is take Device: Advance gun/Modified gun and poor ranks into blast and such.

[The Dark Fiddler]

It's extremely flexible. I mean, christ, you can be a god damn flying toaster that shoots laser beams. AND MAKES TOAST.

So a Dalek? That makes toast. :smalltongue:

You know, I'm so glad I got M&M. Today. It's so awesome ALREADY, and I'm only reading through the skills!

[Matar]

So a Dalek? That makes toast. :smalltongue:

You know, I'm so glad I got M&M. Today. It's so awesome ALREADY, and I'm only reading through the skills!

Play with us.

You know you want to.

Hell, I'm thinking of trying to restart that campaign I tried to start before just because of this thread.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Play with us.

You know you want to.

Hell, I'm thinking of trying to restart that campaign I tried to start before just because of this thread.

PbP?

Because I might want to join in... this system looks fun as hell!

[Arakune]

You can go with TriStats too.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Vin Diesel plays Dungeons and Dragons.

But Mutants and Masterminds plays Chuck Norris.

THAT'S how awesome it is.

[Fhaolan]

So recently, I was looking for a system to run modern/present day setting material in, having grown tired of D20 Modern's quirks, and one of my good friends recommended Mutants and Masterminds.

Concur with Zeta Kai, what quirks in particular? It would help to determine whether those same quirks show up in M&M.

[Lost Demiurge]

M&M is awesome! The core engine of the ruleset can run pretty much damn near anything. It excels at superhero games, but can be revamped into anything else, just by cutting out the stuff that doesn't fit.

I'm gearing up to run a Planescape game using this as the ruleset. Even came up with a way to do magic items that should keep things fairly balanced...

[UglyPanda]

The game has a serious power-balance issue that won't come up if your players are humble, but really-freaking-obvious if they are not, just like D&D.

In other words, re-read the player's sheets over and over again.

[Tengu_temp]

The game has a serious power-balance issue that won't come up if your players are humble, but really-freaking-obvious if they are not, just like D&D.


Of course, the difference is that M&M outward states that players must make their character in cooperation with the DM, so that everyone will have characters on roughly the same power level, and it also points out most of its breakable powers. This is not a game for the "if it's printed in a book then I can take it" mentality.

[UglyPanda]

Of course, the difference is that M&M outward states that players must make their character in cooperation with the DM, so that everyone will have characters on roughly the same power level, and it also points out most of its breakable powers. This is not a game for the "if it's printed in a book then I can take it" mentality.Explicitly stating that the game has balance problems does not excuse it for having those problems. Just because there is a GM trying to balance the game, it does not mean that the GM will be able to balance the game nor be able to perceive everything that may happen as a result of the character's abilities.

My previous point was that the GM has to try to balance the game. The game is good, but it's not balanced well, so the GM has to work at it and figure out the system first.

[Lost Demiurge]

The game has a serious power-balance issue that won't come up if your players are humble, but really-freaking-obvious if they are not, just like D&D.

In other words, re-read the player's sheets over and over again.

Yeah, every game out there that's built for superheroes has this issue. It's easy to min-max if the GM isn't setting hard ground rules, or taking care to review characters.

I've found the problem gets minimized in a group that builds characters at the same time... That way they can discuss their niches, and work out how powerful they should be.

[PhoenixRivers]

IT IS FREAKING AWESOME.

It's extremely flexible. I mean, christ, you can be a god damn flying toaster that shoots laser beams. AND MAKES TOAST.

Character Creation can be difficult, and it requires a DM's touch, but still. Playing is also real simple, as it uses a 1d20 for everything.

Still, it's extremely flexible. Has a great system for doing things. And it can be used for anything. So yeah, it's awesome.

In fairness, D&D has a psionic sandwich.

That would be an interesting match. The laser toaster vs the psionic sandwich.

[chiasaur11]

In fairness, D&D has a psionic sandwich.

That would be an interesting match. The laser toaster vs the psionic sandwich.

Well, the winner would be hard to call.

Is the toaster secretly a robot? (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ejector)

[Drascin]

Yeah, every game out there that's built for superheroes has this issue. It's easy to min-max if the GM isn't setting hard ground rules, or taking care to review characters.

I've found the problem gets minimized in a group that builds characters at the same time... That way they can discuss their niches, and work out how powerful they should be.

Every game that has points has this issue. The price you pay for the versatility of point-based is, generally, the possibility of very broken combos. I once broke a Tri-Stat game without meaning to or even knowing the ruleset before starting to build my character, honestly.

So M&M does require a little chat before the game, so everyone is in the same approximate power level. Otherwise, you can end up with Green Arrow and Superman in the same team, and that rarely goes well.

[Lost Demiurge]

Every game that has points has this issue. The price you pay for the versatility of point-based is, generally, the possibility of very broken combos. I once broke a Tri-Stat game without meaning to or even knowing the ruleset before starting to build my character, honestly.

So M&M does require a little chat before the game, so everyone is in the same approximate power level. Otherwise, you can end up with Green Arrow and Superman in the same team, and that rarely goes well.

I'm trying to think of a superheroes RPG that doesn't use point-based character creation that's worth a damn.

Not coming up with much... Anyone else know of one that's at least worth cover price?

[The Big Dice]

Rather than M&M, which is pretty much set up for superheroes, though it is a very flexible system, try True20. It's basically the same core system as M&M, but it's not tied to any particular setting or genre.

[Knaight]

Closest I can come to is the Fudge Superheroes chapter in the Fudge 10th anniversary edition, but there is no way that it is worth 35 bucks on its own. Of course, they have a lot of other stuff in there, so the book is.

[Blacky the Blackball]

I'm trying to think of a superheroes RPG that doesn't use point-based character creation that's worth a damn.

Not coming up with much... Anyone else know of one that's at least worth cover price?

Golden Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Heroes) - but it went out of print in the 80's.

You may be able to pick up a cheap copy on eBay, or else check out the remake (Squadron UK (http://squadronuk.co.uk/)). The remake is an amateur one-man effort, but if you can see past the incredibly low production values; the system itself is good.

Rather than a points based system, you simply roll for random powers, and then have to come up with a background rationalising them. Any you can't rationalise, you lose.

Whereas flexible points-based systems like M&M are often touted as being able to create exactly the hero you want, the problem is that in order to do that you need to know exactly what you want. Random generation like that in Golden Heroes means that people who fancy playing a superhero game but aren't all that Genre Savvy (or simply don't want to faff about with complex point systems) can generate heroes quickly and easily. Plus, as an added advantage, you don't get the same trite X-Men clones constantly being generated.

[Oslecamo]

Of course, the difference is that M&M outward states that players must make their character in cooperation with the DM, so that everyone will have characters on roughly the same power level, and it also points out most of its breakable powers. This is not a game for the "if it's printed in a book then I can take it" mentality.

Wich, ironically, D&D isn't either. The DMG explictly says that the DM should keep in check the power level of the players, and that he's free to disallow or allow any material and rules he likes or dislikes. A good chnuk of the powerfull abilities have DM clauses, like leadership, saying that it's the DM who has the last word on what cohort you actually get, and teleport has a clause wich says that any area the DM says it's a no-no, so you can't just jump in the BBEG's lair whitout going trough the portal of doom.

But what's one to do, most people just skip over those rules, and then they go to the net and spread fake stuff like the locate city bombo and solars with infinite exp to cast gate over and over again, so M&M will be no better if those kind of people decide to play it.

[Lost Demiurge]

Golden Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Heroes) - but it went out of print in the 80's.

You may be able to pick up a cheap copy on eBay, or else check out the remake (Squadron UK (http://squadronuk.co.uk/)). The remake is an amateur one-man effort, but if you can see past the incredibly low production values; the system itself is good.

Rather than a points based system, you simply roll for random powers, and then have to come up with a background rationalising them. Any you can't rationalise, you lose.

Whereas flexible points-based systems like M&M are often touted as being able to create exactly the hero you want, the problem is that in order to do that you need to know exactly what you want. Random generation like that in Golden Heroes means that people who fancy playing a superhero game but aren't all that Genre Savvy (or simply don't want to faff about with complex point systems) can generate heroes quickly and easily. Plus, as an added advantage, you don't get the same trite X-Men clones constantly being generated.

Ah. The old Marvel FASERIP system method.

Random rolls, better than point-buy?

"I've got... Enhanced senses, and acidic spit."

"I've got super-strength and eyestalks."

"I've got... The power cosmic."

DM: "So let's see. Toad-man, you could be killed by a stray bullet. Punching slug, you've got a little survivibility... And phoenix-jr, you can't be challenged by less than the silver surfer's villains."

Yeah, that's balanced. :smallbiggrin: Don't get me wrong, I reckon it can be fun with a good DM and group, but you can say the same thing for just about any system.

And hell, you can do up a random powers list for M&M if you want. Or take the pre-made package approach... Just have people spend half their points on stats and skills, then take points equal to the other half, put together feat and power packages, and have your players draw them randomly.

[Lost Demiurge]

But what's one to do, most people just skip over those rules, and then they go to the net and spread fake stuff like the locate city bombo and solars with infinite exp to cast gate over and over again, so M&M will be no better if those kind of people decide to play it.

Tell them no. Read'em the rules. If they persist, point them toward a video game. They can WIN those.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Ah. The old Marvel FASERIP system method.

Random rolls, better than point-buy?

"I've got... Enhanced senses, and acidic spit."

"I've got super-strength and eyestalks."

"I've got... The power cosmic."

DM: "So let's see. Toad-man, you could be killed by a stray bullet. Punching slug, you've got a little survivibility... And phoenix-jr, you can't be challenged by less than the silver surfer's villains."

Yeah, that's balanced. :smallbiggrin: Don't get me wrong, I reckon it can be fun with a good DM and group, but you can say the same thing for just about any system.

The problem with FASERIP Marvel is the vast range of random power levels - someone can have nothing above "Good" rank and someone else can roll a couple of "Monstrous" ranks. That's the big unbalancing factor, plus the fact that some powers are simply much better than others.

Golden Heroes avoids that by having a list of powers that are all roughly of equal use and equal power level. Some are a bit better, but cost more than one roll to compensate - and only a few have multiple "ranks" (which you get access to by either rolling the same power twice or choosing to increase an existing power instead of rolling a new one).

So yes, it is possible (if rather unlikely) to roll a character with, say, all defensive powers and no attacks, but you don't have the problem you mention above - it's far from the crapshoot that is FASERIP power rolling.

[Lost Demiurge]

Hm, that's good to know. I'll have to check it out before I make any snap judgements. Thanks for the pointer...

That said, it seems to me that balancing ALL the random powers would limit the genre and setting possibilities of the game. What if you wanted to play a game where superheroes were high-powered? Or a gritty street-level game where having a gun was a power?

Does Golden Heroes allow for easy adjustment of the default power level?

[Blacky the Blackball]

Hm, that's good to know. I'll have to check it out before I make any snap judgements. Thanks for the pointer...

That said, it seems to me that balancing ALL the random powers would limit the genre and setting possibilities of the game. What if you wanted to play a game where superheroes were high-powered? Or a gritty street-level game where having a gun was a power?

Does Golden Heroes allow for easy adjustment of the default power level?

The only real way to do that is to adjust the number of power rolls the players have.

If you wanted a gritty "even a gun is a power" level you could reduce it right down to zero and rely on the inherent ways that the PCs would be superior to the average Joe, or maybe give them one or two rolls (nine rolls is "normal") but restrict the list of powers.

Running a "cosmic level" game would be more difficult, since giving people extra power rolls would mostly mean they had more powers, rather than more powerful powers - they'd quickly reach the limit how many ranks they could get in each individual power.

Here (http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_65/7225000/7225057/1/print/7225057.pdf) is a free (legal) PDF "basic version" of the new Squadron UK version. It contains most of the bare rules of the game - It's a cut down version of the full thing, missing a lot of the GM's section and some of the powers, but it should be enough for you to give it a quick playtest and see if you like it.

[Neon Knight]

Also, I was curious as to what you meant when you said that you were chased off of D20 Modern by its quirks. What quirks annoyed you? It might help to determine what kind of game would best appeal to you.


Concur with Zeta Kai, what quirks in particular? It would help to determine whether those same quirks show up in M&M.

Individual design decisions, balance problems, the wealth system.. but nothing truly fundamental to it.

I ending up buying M&M 2e anyway, though.

[Hawriel]

Its a cool d20 game that you can run a good modern game with. Even with out the super powers.

As an alternative my I recomend D6 Adventure. An easy skill based game that is written for modern action gaming.

[Haven]

Explicitly stating that the game has balance problems does not excuse it for having those problems. Just because there is a GM trying to balance the game, it does not mean that the GM will be able to balance the game nor be able to perceive everything that may happen as a result of the character's abilities.

My previous point was that the GM has to try to balance the game. The game is good, but it's not balanced well, so the GM has to work at it and figure out the system first.

I think actually the game is very well balanced because the power level system means that everyone has the same level of ability--the same offensive and defensive power--but they go about it in different ways (accuracy vs. damage, defense vs. toughness). Since no one can exceed twice the power level for the sum of their offensive capabiliities, and the same applies to their defensive capabilities (except for situational powers like Autofire), it's a lot different than D&D where everyone's doing different amounts of each depending on what class they are.

Now there are ways to break the system open, but they're mostly pretty obvious (Duplication abuse, or free-action blasts, or whatever). But they're in there because it's designed to be able to build anything, which it does an amazing job of, and almost all of them have a note to the effect of "the GM should be wary of allowing players to take this".