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View Full Version : [3.5] Optimising this cantrip as your primary means of attack.



Myou
2009-10-12, 04:30 PM
In the game I'm running/playing we have a cantrip based on Kauper's Quick Blast, which does 1 damage per CL (max 5) of acid, fire or cold damage, no save, no SR, no hit roll, swift action to cast. This is probably a little overpowered for a cantrip, but when used as it is it's not really a problem.

But can we make it a problem? Can a caster be built to compete with the best builds using just this cantrip?

Quickblast
Conjuration [see text]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 free action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

A tiny shard of ice, spark of electricity, or ember of fire speeds from you to the target and deals 1 point of appropriately typed damage per caster level (maximum 5 points). The spell has the elemental descriptor for the kind of energy you select; for example, this is a [cold] spell if you choose a shard of ice.

You can cast this spell with an instant utterance. Casting the spell is a free action, like a quickened spell, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened spell per round.

Material Component: A drop of quicksilver and a blue, yellow, or red glass marble.


Slightly modified version based on a few comments;
Quickblast
Conjuration [see text]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

A tiny shard of ice, spark of electricity, or ember of fire speeds from you to the target and deals 1 point of appropriately typed damage per caster level (maximum 5 points). The spell has the elemental descriptor for the kind of energy you select; for example, this is a [cold] spell if you choose a shard of ice.

Material Component: A drop of quicksilver and a blue, yellow, or red glass marble.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-12, 04:31 PM
Fell Drain spell.

Edit: At least give it a saving throw and SR to make up for the damage and no attack roll. You'll probably want to make it Evocation then.

jiriku
2009-10-12, 04:34 PM
Fell frighten would make this a good swift-action debuffer. Of course, if you're restricted to just this spell in combat, you can't cast anything that forces a save to take full advantage of the debuff.

Siosilvar
2009-10-12, 04:36 PM
Quickblast
Conjuration
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

A tiny shard of ice, spark of electricity, or ember of fire speeds from you to the target and deals 1 point of appropriately typed damage per caster level (maximum 5 points). The spell has the elemental descriptor for the kind of energy you select; for example, this is a [cold] spell if you choose a shard of ice.

[S]You can cast this spell with an instant utterance. Casting the spell is a free action, like a quickened spell, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened spell per round.

Material Component: A drop of quicksilver and a blue, yellow, or red glass marble.

Hmm... Free autohit damage with no SR, I'm going to agree with PF and go with Fell Drain, AKA free negative level.

Kylarra
2009-10-12, 04:42 PM
In addition to fell, born of the three thunders is a set of free bonus riders given the electricity version.

Douglas
2009-10-12, 04:44 PM
Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, Fell Weaken, Arcane Thesis, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Improved Metamagic from Incantatrix, maybe some Easy Metamagic or Practical Metamagic, and maybe combine it with Arcane Fusion and/or Greater Arcane Fusion. Twinned and Repeated, of course. If it's eligible for Arcane Fusion or you find a way to make it eligible, I could make a build that would effectively cast it 32 times by casting Greater Arcane Fusion once, all 32 times with the various Fell metamagics attached - and that's just in the first round. It would hit again, quite a few more times, over the next 3 rounds, all from the same casting. Anything not immune to negative levels is automatically dead, and anything that is immune is taking hundreds of damage.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-12, 04:44 PM
In the game I'm running/playing we have a cantrip based on Kauper's Quick Blast, which does 1 damage per CL (max 5) of acid, fire or cold damage, no save, no SR, no hit roll, swift action to cast. This is probably a little overpowered for a cantrip, but when used as it is it's not really a problem.

But can we make it a problem? Can a caster be built to compete with the best builds using just this cantrip?

Quickblast
Conjuration [see text]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 free action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

A tiny shard of ice, spark of electricity, or ember of fire speeds from you to the target and deals 1 point of appropriately typed damage per caster level (maximum 5 points). The spell has the elemental descriptor for the kind of energy you select; for example, this is a [cold] spell if you choose a shard of ice.

You can cast this spell with an instant utterance. Casting the spell is a free action, like a quickened spell, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened spell per round.

Material Component: A drop of quicksilver and a blue, yellow, or red glass marble.

Fine as a 1st level spell. But too strong for cantrip. Free action means you can cast as many as yoiu have prepare in same round.

At level 5, you have 13 spells/day. Meaning you deal 13 x5 damage=65 damage possibly to any target no Save, no hit chance.
That pretty much one shots any enemy (like a BBEG).

Swift action means 1/rd.

Ernir
2009-10-12, 04:48 PM
Fine as a 1st level spell. But too strong for cantrip. Free action means you can cast as many as yoiu have prepare in same round.

It does include the "limit of one quickened spell per round" clause that was in the PHB before the introduction of swift actions, though. It is a swift action, just... more wordy.

arguskos
2009-10-12, 04:50 PM
It does include the "limit of one quickened spell per round" clause that was in the PHB before the introduction of swift actions, though. It is a swift action, just... more wordy.
It means that Myou likely doesn't have access to the most current rulings on Swift Actions, and so working with the SRD only, included that clause. Just sayin'.

As for Quickblast, I really think you should take a good long look at what douglas produced up there. :smallwink:

tyckspoon
2009-10-12, 04:52 PM
I think the spell is honestly too limited to break as a primary attack method. Sure, you could stack metamagic on it, but it's limited there too.. it's fixed damage, so you can't get a benefit from Maximize or Empowering it. Not a Ray, so no doubling up with Split. And, probably the most damaging facet, it's a native Swift action which means if you want to use more than one per turn you have to find a way to get extra Quicken Spell/Swift actions. There's nothing you can do with this that you couldn't do better with Magic Missile (Fell-stacked this + Fell-stacked Magic Missile would make a nice combo, tho.)

Starbuck_II
2009-10-12, 04:54 PM
Hmm, still auto hits is very strong for level 0.
I mean, level 1 it fights against Magic missile.
Pro:
MM is Force, but Quickblast is energy. Energy damage is more resist able than Force.
MM can deal more damage every off level. This caps at 5.


Con:
MM has SR, this doesn't.
MM can be blocked with Shield spell.

So it can be argued that it isn't better than MM, but it is stronger than every other cantrip.

Lapak
2009-10-12, 04:59 PM
I think I'm comfortable saying that any cantrip which automatically applies an effect is too strong to be a cantrip. It's not in the spirit of what a cantrip is supposed to be; that aspect alone makes it more appealing for any effect you can deliver along with a spell than anything else I can think of. Even Magic Missile can be stopped by a Shield. (Or by SR, for that matter.) There are precious few spells of any level that have (autohit+no SR+no save+no special mechanism to avoid.)

Myou
2009-10-12, 05:01 PM
Fine as a 1st level spell. But too strong for cantrip. Free action means you can cast as many as yoiu have prepare in same round.

At level 5, you have 13 spells/day. Meaning you deal 13 x5 damage=65 damage possibly to any target no Save, no hit chance.
That pretty much one shots any enemy (like a BBEG).

Swift action means 1/rd.

I don't really follow how you cast it 13 times in one round, but I do agree with the posters that this ought to be a first level spell. I never really thought about it before, I got it some some old WotC page and just sort of tossed it into the game.


Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, Fell Weaken, Arcane Thesis, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Improved Metamagic from Incantatrix, maybe some Easy Metamagic or Practical Metamagic, and maybe combine it with Arcane Fusion and/or Greater Arcane Fusion. Twinned and Repeated, of course. If it's eligible for Arcane Fusion or you find a way to make it eligible, I could make a build that would effectively cast it 32 times by casting Greater Arcane Fusion once, all 32 times with the various Fell metamagics attached - and that's just in the first round. It would hit again, quite a few more times, over the next 3 rounds, all from the same casting. Anything not immune to negative levels is automatically dead, and anything that is immune is taking hundreds of damage.

Darn, I was hoping someone would break it without Arcane Thesis. But oooh, that's a lot of damage/negative levels. :smallamused:

Like tyckspoon says, is there any non-fell-drain method to make it deadly?


It means that Myou likely doesn't have access to the most current rulings on Swift Actions, and so working with the SRD only, included that clause. Just sayin'.

As for Quickblast, I really think you should take a good long look at what douglas produced up there. :smallwink:

Nah, I didn't write it. But I guess I better change it a bit.

Bayar
2009-10-12, 05:25 PM
Hmm, still auto hits is very strong for level 0.
I mean, level 1 it fights against Magic missile.
Pro:
MM is Force, but Quickblast is energy. Energy damage is more resist able than Force.
MM can deal more damage every off level. This caps at 5.


Con:
MM has SR, this doesn't.
MM can be blocked with Shield spell.

So it can be argued that it isn't better than MM, but it is stronger than every other cantrip.

Sonic Snap autohits as a cantrip. Admittently, it does 1 sonic damage with no SR. And I think it is a standard action to cast.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-12, 05:36 PM
Sonic Snap autohits as a cantrip. Admittently, it does 1 sonic damage with no SR. And I think it is a standard action to cast.

Agreed. Plus it has a save partial meaning Hexblades take no damage since they have mettle.

Darrin
2009-10-12, 06:28 PM
In addition to fell, born of the three thunders is a set of free bonus riders given the electricity version.

You can then add Heighten Spell and Sonic Might (Lyric Thaumaturge 5) for 5d6 sonic damage, no save.

Akal Saris
2009-10-12, 06:58 PM
Agreed. Plus it has a save partial meaning Hexblades take no damage since they have mettle.

Someday, somewhere, a hexblade will make his save against Sonic Snap and do a little happy dance...

Kylarra
2009-10-12, 07:02 PM
You can then add Heighten Spell and Sonic Might (Lyric Thaumaturge 5) for 5d6 sonic damage, no save.
Blistering Spell can do similar with fire for +2 damage/spell level and a minor rider. It is a +1 metamagic so you'll need to invest in another feat to reduce it first though.

Fizban
2009-10-12, 07:13 PM
Huh, could have sworn the original was 1st level.

Anyway, I always saw the quickblast's best use as 1, the obvious free touch sneak attack every round (if you're improved invisible), and 2, checking for Ray Turning. Ray Turning is a 4th level spell in the spell compendium that reflects all ranged touch attack spells for the duration. It makes you immune to such wonderful spells as Orb of X, Enervation, and Ray of Dizziness, so spending a free action to check first is a good idea if you plan on using them.

Hmm. In the same vein as the Lyric Thamaturge, Winterhaunt of Iborghu adds a couple d6's to any cold damage you deal. It requires divine spells to even though it can advance any spellcasting and deals less than the Lyric so it doesn't come close in usefullness.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-12, 08:34 PM
Something involving sneak attacking with it?

There's no attack rolls, so no dice.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-12, 09:44 PM
Blistering Spell can do similar with fire for +2 damage/spell level and a minor rider. It is a +1 metamagic so you'll need to invest in another feat to reduce it first though.

Well, we can assume that fell drain is gonna be used with this. It's an easy choice for an autohitting damage spell.

So, we're looking at Arcane Thesis(this spell), Fell Drain, Energy Substitution(Sonic), Heighten Spell, Sonic Might. Alternatively, swap out the substitution for fire, and use Blistering Spell.

Either option results in it still being a level 0 slot, thanks to the wonder that is Arcane Thesis. It's competitive with level 3 single target nukes, at least. For added fun, you can twin it at a level 3 slot.