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View Full Version : [3.5] So my campaign just became a game of Xorvintaal. Need to refine the rules.



Pika...
2009-10-12, 04:45 PM
So to my amazement the PCs decided to "visit" the most powerful NPC on the planet. A dragon as big as a small city. Oh, and who was not very happy that one of the PCs existed, because he got reincarnated into a Gold Dragon and until then this NPC was the only Dragon known on the planet.

You really need to forget planning as a DM. :smallsigh:

Anyway, I had been planning to introduce 'The Great Game" from the Monster Manual V since the first time I ran my sandbox cosmology where ANOTHER PC managed to mess with my "Dragons are legendary powerful creatures all but extinct" fluff and plot (this one got a hold of a Deck of Many Things...).

So anyway, as a DM having successfully pumped up the player's ego by letting him milk the attention of being "the second dragon" he felt big enough to talk back to a creature who's head I described as being bigger then the building we were in (the rest of it was in a lake of molten gold inside a fortified mountain). So as the DM the only way I figured this NPC would have not killed him for that, and to get rid of the "insulting competition" was if the secret council of Dragons I had made for the former Dragon PC had instructed him not to. So the big NPC proceeds to planeshift them to a demi-plane I rather not spoil.

Anyway, there the PC was given the option of either a) Joining The Great Game Xorvintaal, or b) Be killed. It is needless to say what the PC chose.


After the agreement, and it was shown that the dragon gods favored the decision the following information was given to the player:

-As he could see by the thousands of dragons in the stands around the arena he was standing on the dragons had indeed not died out as the "lesser races" of the Prime Material have believed for ages. In truth, with the exception of a few "rogues", they merely chose to "fade from view" of the lesser creatures.

-The Dragons had grown tired of their constant wars and battles, so they found a way to continue their feuds but without the need of dragon blood being spilled. Hence Xorvintaal was created.

-The other players are now his "pawns" in The Great Game.



My ideas so far for expanding on the rules of Xorvintaal (from the MM5):

1. No Dragon may attack another Dragon, they can not send their Xorvintaal Exarches (see MM5) to attack a Dragon, they may not manipulate pawns to attack another Dragon, nor can they in any way have another Dragon targeted to be harmed in any way.

If a Dragon unwittingly causes pawns to attack another Dragon who has not provoked the pawns he immediately forfeits half his central hoard to the attacked Dragon. Instead he may forfeit a Seed Hoard (see Seed Hoard in MM5) and the surrounding territory to the attacked Dragon if the attacked Dragon agrees to the offer.

If a Dragon unwittingly caused pawns to kill another Dragon his life becomes
forfeit.


2. There are three categories of game pieces a Xorvintaal Dragon may have under his control.


Exarches: These are lesser beings that are aware of the Great Game, and their master's true self. A Dragon is cautioned to be very selective with who he makes an exarch, and how many he keeps, for they are ever monitored and if it is seen that they have revealed a mere word of Xorvintaal or the continued existence of the Dragon race they, their Dragon master, the rest of their master's minions, and often the entire settlement they are in are wiped from existence without a trace overnight.

Notes:
-A Dragon may never take on an exarch who is the ruler of a settlement or kingdom such as a king, queen, All-Watcher, Chieftain, etc. A Dragon's exarch may never accept such a position either.
-If a Dragon has an emotional attachment to a lesser creature he should be careful when choosing to offer it the honor of becoming an exarch and performing the ritual (see Exarch in the MM5). This is because once a Dragon reveals itself to the creature, and the truth of the Dragons' secret, if the creature refuses the Dragon is required to kill it immediately. Due to the Ritual of Xorvintaal a Xorvintaal Dragon may not break the rules of the great game, and therefore has no way to resist this rule.

Pawns: Pawns are game pieces used by a Dragon who are not aware of the forces pulling the strings both on their side, and on that of their enemies. These creatures are secretly used and manipulated by Dragons to fulfill various roles, mainly raiding another Dragon's hoard or lair.

The Dragon Blessed: This term covers a wide range of minions which have been empowered by their Dragon master. Such beings include Dragon Kith (see Draconomican), Dragonfire Adepts, Divine Casters who have made a Dragonpact (see Dragon Magic), etc.

Due to their obvious Dragon influenced natures and/or physical alterations these minions are restricted to only be able to dwell within their Dragon master's lair, or a Seed Hoard (see Seed Hoard) for fear they would reveal the existence of Dragons.



3. The goal of Xorvintaal is to use one's Exarches, or to manipulate unknowing pawns to raid the hoards and/or lairs of their opponents.


4. Definition of a Hoard:
A Dragon's hoard is defined as the location (hidden or otherwise) where the Dragon keeps his collected wealth (gems, precious metals, etc) and personally resides. If the Dragon controls Seed Hoards (see Seed Hoards) he must maintain at least twice as much wealth in his central hoard than as in any one of his seed hoards.

The claimed territory of a Dragon is a radius centered on the Dragon hoard equal in miles to every 5,000gp worth of wealth (gems, precious metals, books, etc) within the dragon's hoard. This amount is constantly monitored and regularly updated in records on the Demi-Plane of Dragons. Any Dragon capable of traveling to to the Demi-Plane of Dragons has free access to the records to see what rival hoards (but not seed hoards) are in his area, and plan his strategies. It is not unheard of for competing Dragons to literally standing side by side trying to look at the same book.

While a Dragon can theoretically eventually posses an entire planet within the radius of his hoard, when the radius of two Dragons' hoards touch at any point they cease expanding regardless of how much wealth is placed within them. Once two hoards' radius touch the owning Dragons are notified telepathically by council members on the Demi-Plane of Dragons that their hoard's size has been capped.

However, an extremely bold or wonderlust filled Dragon may choose to have no central hoard but instead maintain one or multiple seed hoards.


5. Definition Seed Hoard:

A seed hoard is usually used as a very aggressive move in Xorvintaal. They are hoards created and filled by a Dragon, but where the owning Dragon does not personally reside. They are solely guarded by the Dragon's Exarches, and/or unknowing pawns.

Since seed hoards are not public records they are often used as an aggressive move against a rival Dragon's hoard by placing it at the edge of it's hoard radius, causing the hoard's influence to stop dead in it's tracks until the Dragon is able to locate the hidden hoard (if it ever manages to).


6. Taking another Dragon's Hoard:
Taking another Dragon's hoard is basic and simple. One player sends his exarches and/or pawns to the opposing Dragon's lair or seed hoard. There they retrieve the Dragon's hoard by any means short of harming the opposing Dragon, and bring it back to the attacking Dragon's horde. The most common techniques are slaughtering the opposing exarches and pawns, and stealthy thievery. If the opposing Dragon is present he must merely watch, though he may give commands to his minions. The resident Dragon may choose to voluntarily enter combat with his rival's earches/pawns, but at his own risk (see below).

7. A Dragon may choose to take part in combat with his exarches and pawns against those of another Dragon, however; in doing so the exarches and pawns are free to defend themselves against the Dragon from that point on (although exarches and minions who did not participate in the battle do not).

In addition, unless fighting in his alternate form a Dragon must be careful when doing this in fear of exposing the Dragons' secret to the world. If he reveals his true Dragon form he is expected to kill every pawn on the battlefield, this includes his own pawns. These pawns may not be converted to Exarches.


8. Claw Test:
A Claw Test is a sort of "I call you out" for Dragons. Basically both Dragons agree to send out exarches or pawns under their control to a preset location at a preset time to do battle, or on occasion compete in anther way. usually the Dragons agree for both parties to be as fairly balanced powerwise as possible, but if both parties agree one dragon may choose to send weaker numbers/power/etc while on his part wagering proportionally less.

This is done on the Demi-Plane of Dragons, and any Dragon may take part in gambling over a Claw Test.

It is not unheard of for ancient powerful Dragons to manipulate entire armies and kingdoms against each other, nor for entire hoards and seed hoards be gambled off.


9. A Dragon may not directly kill or otherwise a ruler of a kingdom or settlement, especially in an attempt to secretly assert the position of said using it's shape changing abilities.

However, a Dragon is not restricted from manipulating pawns or exarches to kill such a ruler.

10. A Dragon may never assert or otherwise make himself ruler of a kingdom, city state, or other settlement.



PS.
-I believe this game might have just become a fortress/empire building game.
-However, the PC will still need to build his horde to put up for stakes, though, so this might leave some early level adventuring.
-Any ideas for how to handle/run a campaign like this as a DM? I am not really sure where to go from here.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-12, 07:09 PM
I'm not sure either, but this is awesome!

jiriku
2009-10-12, 07:10 PM
You really need to forget planning as a DM. :smallsigh:


Word.

You've got two things going for you:

1) Xorvintaal is completely left up to the DM to detail.

2) Xorvintaal is so complicated that no humanoid could ever learn it, and even dragons can spend centuries mastering its intricacies.

So from this, we establish that A) Xorvintaal is whatever you say it is, and B) if what you'd laid down previously becomes inconvenient, you can simply have your dragon PC's patron explain some additional rules of which the PC was unaware, e.g. "Now we enter the Phase of Lasting Twilight. All of the rules I taught you previously are suspended for one year and now these new rules apply. Oh, and all stakes are doubled."

I'd say the only thing that's really changed for you is that now you have the dragon PC's patron available as a perfect quest-giving tool and plot-driving device. He give instructions to do anything at anytime, and all you have to say is "Oh, didn't I explain that rule to you before? Well, that's how it's played."

theinnerdevil
2009-10-12, 10:33 PM
"1. No Dragon may attack another Dragon, they can not send their Xorvintaal Exarches (see MM5) to attack a Dragon, they may not manipulate pawns to attack another Dragon, nor can they in any way have another Dragon targeted to be harmed in any way. "

the rules of Xorvintal are entirly up to the DM but in my opinion this isnt the greatest rule. dragons should be able to kill each other but the drawback to going out to do that is that you just left your horde for someone else to raid.

Radar
2009-10-13, 01:12 AM
(...)
I'd say the only thing that's really changed for you is that now you have the dragon PC's patron available as a perfect quest-giving tool and plot-driving device. He give instructions to do anything at anytime, and all you have to say is "Oh, didn't I explain that rule to you before? Well, that's how it's played.""
So you propose to change Xorvintaal into a dragon version of Calvinball? It might work for a while, but it would be tricky to keep this up for a long time - PC's will inevitably fall into Perimeter of Wisdom. :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2009-10-13, 01:15 AM
So you propose to change Xorvintaal into a dragon version of Calvinball? It might work for a while, but it would be tricky to keep this up for a long time - PC's will inevitably fall into Perimeter of Wisdom. :smalltongue:MMV actually explicitly says that. :smalltongue:


In most cases, the mechanics of the great game can be portrayed as beyond the knowledge of the PCs.
Those characters who manage to penetrate the mystery should receive evocative but garbled blends of maneuvers and strategy from any game you know well enough to speak eloquently about. Consistency and clarity should be your last priority—portray xorvintaal as a tortured mess of contradictory rules and exceptions that only a dragon with centuries to study could understand.

jiriku
2009-10-13, 01:49 AM
So you propose to change Xorvintaal into a dragon version of Calvinball? It might work for a while, but it would be tricky to keep this up for a long time - PC's will inevitably fall into Perimeter of Wisdom. :smalltongue:

Good sir, that is exactly what I propose.

Draz74
2009-10-13, 02:06 AM
Awesome. I motion that there actually be something in-campaign about a Perimeter of Wisdom.

On a slightly more helpful note: Fortress/empire building games are the best way to run high-level games. They go back to the roots of earlier D&D editions, curb the Christmas Tree effect as the players' only channel for their wealth, and tie the PCs nicely into the setting and to the NPCs.

That being said, the way to keep a fortress/empire building game fun is to not tie the PCs to those mechanics too strongly. Just like a war campaign (e.g. Red Hand of Doom) is more fun if PCs are performing special assassination or rescue quests, rather than slogging it out with hundreds of weak mooks, a fortress/empire game is more fun if the PCs have to take on challenges, tied to their overall meta-goals, that have mechanics more along the lines of traditional dungeon-crawling and small battles. Infiltration of enemy fortresses, diplomatic missions to crucial potential allies, and quests to win the favor of said crucial potential allies are all great sources of adventure hooks.

bosssmiley
2009-10-13, 04:48 AM
Read Iain M. Banks Player of Games. It's a sci-fi story about a society where status and political position is decided by playing a prodigiously complex game. Chessmastery as civil service examination. Vetinari would love it.

I've seen the functional equivalents of Xorvintaal before in D&D. Looks to me like Planescape's struggles between Powers, Proxies and Petitioners (fought out using Primes and Planars), or possibly the shadowy wars of influence between regents in the Birthright setting (represented by the Agitate, Contest, Diplomacy and Espionage domain actions).

Xorvintaal: sneaking the political endgame back into D&D under the mantle of dragon fanboi-ism. :smallamused:

karnokoto
2009-10-13, 05:00 AM
Scuze me while I copy/paste the contents of this thread into a word document for later use...
This is awesome stuff :D

Pika...
2009-10-14, 04:51 PM
I'm not sure either, but this is awesome!


Scuze me while I copy/paste the contents of this thread into a word document for later use...
This is awesome stuff :D

Wow, thanks. I'm honored. :smallredface:




"1. No Dragon may attack another Dragon, they can not send their Xorvintaal Exarches (see MM5) to attack a Dragon, they may not manipulate pawns to attack another Dragon, nor can they in any way have another Dragon targeted to be harmed in any way. "

the rules of Xorvintal are entirly up to the DM but in my opinion this isnt the greatest rule. dragons should be able to kill each other but the drawback to going out to do that is that you just left your horde for someone else to raid.

But does that not deafeat the point of them having "fadeded from sight" to keep from continuing slaughtering themselves (and for the good ones stomping on the "lesser" races during the process)?

Volkov
2009-10-14, 04:52 PM
Xorvintaal to me seems like a neverending game of chess crossed with aspects of various gambling games with many, many players.

t_catt11
2009-10-14, 04:57 PM
Cosmic Calvinball directed by dragons. This is delicious on so many levels. I LOVE this!

CockroachTeaParty
2009-10-14, 06:06 PM
Cosmic Calvinball directed by dragons. This is delicious on so many levels. I LOVE this!

I know picture a bunch of dragons with black bandanna masks running around with croquet mallets and golf clubs, smacking a soccer ball past random wickets. Just stay clear of the Bag Flag Zone.

Milskidasith
2009-10-14, 06:27 PM
First of all, make sure all the rules have "some exceptions which probably won't come up" mentioned by the dragon that takes your players under it's wing.

Also, I think that two dragon's can fight only in a dedicated Claw Test where both agree to be there.

I'd lay down the rules as such:

In a Claw Test, and only in a Claw Test, the dragons themselves may fight each other. The rules are as such for this special claw test:


Only Exarchs and the dragons may be in this competition.
Both dragons must be present. In no Claw Test can a dragon fight unless he has previously agreed that the other dragon is there.
The fight must take place in land that neither of the dragons controls, either through political influence or through the horde radius. There are exceptions, such as if the two dragon's both control kingdoms that are at war with each other, and agree to do battle on a front of the war. As usual, they must make sure no pawns are present.
Both dragons must fight in their true forms at all times.
If it is possible to eliminate the opposing dragon without killing it, that is required. If killing the opposing dragon is necessary, or at least so much easier than taking the opposing dragon down nonlethally (Ex: the dragon can be, say, put to sleep with a spell, but he has an epic ward up that would require you to higher another dragon to dispel it), you may use lethal force. All instances of lethal force will be taken to a council of dragons for review.
If a dragon loses by death and it is agreed the winner acted within the rules, they get all of the dragon's hoards, dragon's under it's command, position in all dragon related affairs, etc.
If a dragon loses but is not killed, there are two options that could be agreed upon beforehand. One, the winner takes half of the losers central hoard and up to two seed hoards (chosen without knowledge of the contents, but with knowledge of their location), or two: the winner gets all of the dragon's hoards and the loser is forced into servitude to the winning dragon for a time period of up to 200 years or the amount of time the dragon has currently been involved in the game, whichever is greater. There are, of course, some ways to get out of this servitude.

chiasaur11
2009-10-14, 07:07 PM
So you propose to change Xorvintaal into a dragon version of Calvinball? It might work for a while, but it would be tricky to keep this up for a long time - PC's will inevitably fall into Perimeter of Wisdom. :smalltongue:

DM: The name of the game is called... Fizzbin. Each player gets 6 cards, except for the player on the dealer's right, who gets 7.
PC: On the right.
DM: Yeah. The second card is turned up, except on Tuesdays.
PC: Tuesday.
DM: Ohh! Look what you've got- 2 jacks. You got a half-fizzbin already.
PC: I need another jack?
DM: No. If you got another jack, why you'd have a shralk.
PC: A shralk?
DM: Yes, you'd be disqualified. No, what you need now is either a king and a deuce, except at night, of course, when you'd need a queen and a four.
PC: Except at night.
DM: Right. Oh, look at that, you've got another jack! How lucky you are! How wonderful for you! Now if you didn't get another jack, if you had gotten a king, why then you'd get another card except when it's dark , when you'd have to give it back.
PC: If it were dark on Tuesday.
DM: Yes, but what you're after is a royal fizzbin, but the odds of getting a royal fizzbin are astron - .
DM: Well, they're astronomical, believe me. Now, for the last card, we'll call it a kronk. You got that?