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vartan
2009-10-12, 09:27 PM
Is this ruthless ruffian spec for rogues some sort of trap? You get to add STR mod to attacks that have the rattling keyword, so you get an at will that benefits from DEX and STR mod- and you can two hand a mace for an additional point of damage. Plus rattling is awesome... right?

If I were rolling a half-orc ruthless ruffian rogue using a mace I would get 1d8+Str+Dex+1 and get an effective two ac against the target- so I could sort of tank whilst doing reliable damage... kind of. Add on to this the racial +1W and the 2d6s from sneak attack and I'm doing awesome.

I don't run numbers as well as you all. I'm looking for commentary and a suggestion of which feat to pick for 1st level.

Master_Rahl22
2009-10-12, 09:37 PM
From what I've seen, Ruthless Ruffian is a good build for Rogues. I prefer Artful Dodger just because I like the idea of the charismatic, charming thief, but I'd play a RR too. I can't help on the numbers though, sorry.

vartan
2009-10-12, 09:43 PM
What feat would you take though?
Weapon Expertise offsets the loss of Rogue Weapon Talent
Backstabber seems like a great way to boost damage (as does Weapon Focus)
and Thirst for Battle is like a slightly diluted Improved Init with a diluted Durable attached.

Mando Knight
2009-10-12, 09:49 PM
It's a trap so long as you have a reliable source of Sneak Attack. You can still take Rattling powers as a Brutal Scoundrel, and use the mechanically superior Double Sword or Rapier instead, as well as get the bonus damage on ranged attacks, with weapons like Superior Crossbows or Shuriken. Brutal Scoundrel gives you roughly the same benefits as Ruthless Ruffian, but works for more powers and weapons. (RR's damage bonus only applies to clubs and maces and needs to be used on a Rattling attack, while Brutal Scoundrel's bonus applies whenever you deal Sneak Attack damage.)

Thajocoth
2009-10-12, 11:38 PM
It's good if you want to go clubbing, or if you have a bunch of ways of attacking multiple times per round... Otherwise Brutal Scoundrel gives you essentially the same benefit, but with a little more, as Mando pointed out.

If there's a Fighter though, Artful Dodger lets you deal the Fighter's damage once per round... Provoke AOs from marked enemies on purpose, knowing they probably won't hit, and that if they try, the Fighter gets his attack... Despite the lack of Str to damage like the others get, this could easily add a lot more to damage output.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-10-12, 11:55 PM
It's good if you want to go clubbing, or if you have a bunch of ways of attacking multiple times per round... Otherwise Brutal Scoundrel gives you essentially the same benefit, but with a little more, as Mando pointed out.

If there's a Fighter though, Artful Dodger lets you deal the Fighter's damage once per round... Provoke AOs from marked enemies on purpose, knowing they probably won't hit, and that if they try, the Fighter gets his attack... Despite the lack of Str to damage like the others get, this could easily add a lot more to damage output.I'm not sure an intelligent foe would actually make the opportunity attack, at least after the first attempt.

Thajocoth
2009-10-13, 12:53 AM
I'm not sure an intelligent foe would actually make the opportunity attack, at least after the first attempt.

Yeah, but how many rounds to most enemies last anyway? And there are an awful lot of beasts and such that might take longer to figure that one out... The fighter smacking them with a Mordenkrad once is worth more than dealing 4 extra damage, like, 2 or 3 times.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-13, 03:46 AM
Is this ruthless ruffian spec for rogues some sort of trap?
Pretty much, albeit a small one. Even if you use rattling powers a lot, +Str whenever you sneak attack (as in brutal scoundrel) is simply better than +Str whenever you rattle, and the extra weapon skills a ruffian gets are simply underwhelming.

I've played a rattaling rogue for a few levels and I can attest that rattling is a far cry from "awesome". Not that it's bad, but it's not impressive either (at least at heroic levels).

Hal
2009-10-13, 04:44 AM
I'm not sure an intelligent foe would actually make the opportunity attack, at least after the first attempt.

It's a toss-up, and that's kind of the point. This is the strategy the rogue and fighter use in my game, and our DM only occasionally takes the attack. The upshot for the rogue, providing he doesn't get smacked around too badly, is that he can slip right into a flanking position without worry.

As for the rattling rogue, I've only played a rogue for a little while. When I was trying to decide between Brutal Scoundrel and Ruthless Ruffian, I remember looking through the rogue powers and being unimpressed by the rattling powers.