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lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-13, 10:38 AM
I was on Tvtropes, when it suddenly hit me, is there any reason (other than optimization) I can't dual wield a sword and a gun (crossbow).

So a few questions,

1. I'm planning to use the crossbow as my off-hand to circumvent the 1/2 Str bonus so are there any other penalties to making an offhand attack?

2. How long/What kind of action does it take to swap the weapons in your hand?

3. If I make a full attack, do I have to attack the same target with my attacks or can I split it up?

For example, with +16 BAB and greater two weapon fighting, and

6 enemies; 3 right in front of me (melee range) and 3 out of melee range, but within crossbow range.

Could I hit the person in front of me twice, then hit the other two once with my sword and after fire 1 bolt at each ranged enemy?

4. Although this is intended mostly for flavor, is there a way to optimize this or make it viable?

5. What manuevers work with crossbows? Preferably non-homebrew

hamishspence
2009-10-13, 10:42 AM
There is a feat in the sourcebook Drow of the Underdark for those who want to use rapier & hand crossbow at the same time- Versatile Combatant. And you don't have to be a drow to take it.

The tricky part is loading- normally, you need two-hands to load a bow.

This might possibly be resolvable with Quick Loading property from Magic Item Compendium- it adds an extradimensional space to the bow that allows ammo to be loaded as a free action- but it doesn't state whether the user still needs to use their other hand to load it.

If DM says it loads itself, this can make for a good option.

Eldariel
2009-10-13, 10:43 AM
I was on Tvtropes, when it suddenly hit me, is there any reason (other than optimization) I can't dual wield a sword and a gun (crossbow).

So a few questions,

1. I'm planning to use the crossbow as my off-hand to circumvent the 1/2 Str bonus so are there any other penalties to making an offhand attack?

The -2 from TWF (given you have the feat), obviously.


2. How long/What kind of action does it take to swap the weapons in your hand?

I think it's a free action if the other hand is free, but if you have a weapon in both hands, it's more complex.


3. If I make a full attack, do I have to attack the same target with my attacks or can I split it up?

You can split them up.


For example, with +16 BAB and greater two weapon fighting, and 6 enemies; 3 right in front of me (melee range) and 3 out of melee range, but within crossbow range.

Could I hit the person in front of me twice, then hit the other two once with my sword and after fire 1 bolt at each ranged enemy?

Sure.


4. Although this is intended mostly for flavor, is there a way to optimize this or make it viable?

Crossbow Sniper (to get some actual damage outta the Crossbow; probably worth going Dex-focus overall) [PHBII], Versatile Combatant [DoTU] (you get essentially free Close-Combat Shot with Rapier + Hand Crossbow along with tWF), Hand Crossbow Focus [DoTU] (free action reload + weapon focus in 1 feat), Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade [ToB] (Dex for melee attacks). Quick Draw is a decent option too, allowing you to switch between double blade, double crossbow and blade+crossbow.


5. What manuevers work with crossbows? Preferably non-homebrew

ToB? Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still and ones that don't care for weapon. Other attack maneuvers are melee only.


EDIT: Picking TWF + Exotic Weapon Master is probably better than Versatile Combatant, since it keeps your options open. Also, Exotic Weapon Master has some nice abilities for Hand Crossbow anyways.

kamikasei
2009-10-13, 10:46 AM
1. I'm planning to use the crossbow as my off-hand to circumvent the 1/2 Str bonus so are there any other penalties to making an offhand attack?

You're two-weapon fighting, with all the penalties that brings (reduced attack to both hands). It says having a light or hand crossbow in each hand is treated like wielding two light weapons, so I'd treat either as a light weapon when it comes to using them alongside other kinds of weapons. Firing a light crossbow one-handed takes a -2 penalty to attack to start with, too.


2. How long/What kind of action does it take to swap the weapons in your hand?

By RAW, there's no "swap" option, even from one hand to an empty one. It's a judgment call.


3. If I make a full attack, do I have to attack the same target with my attacks or can I split it up?

No, each attack can be against a different target.


4. Although this is intended mostly for flavor, is there a way to optimize this or make it viable?

None that I can think of.

sambo.
2009-10-13, 10:57 AM
4. Although this is intended mostly for flavor, is there a way to optimize this or make it viable?

large amounts of high DC Drow Sleepyjus to coat your little crossbow darts with comes to mind.

hand crossbows without sleepyjus (or some other such poison/damage adding effect) are generally as effective as a gnat biting an elephant.

unless you plan on targeting only low-level wizards/sorcerers with it (about the only opponents for whom a hand crossbow is actually dangerous)

BenTheJester
2009-10-13, 10:58 AM
Ninja'd times 1000

Person_Man
2009-10-13, 11:35 AM
This works quite well in Star Wars Saga Edition. A Scoundrel/Scout/Jedi/Bounty Hunter/Whatever can Aim and disable one enemy per turn with his gun (which is actually quite good for SWSE) while holding a lightsaber which he Blocks/Deflects with and uses as a backup weapon.

In D&D, you're going to run into some serious crunch problems. It's going to be very feat intensive. You're going to need a source of bonus damage (most likely Sneak Attack, Skirmish, or both). You're going to need to trigger the bonus damage every turn (ie, deny your enemy his Dex and/or move 10 ft, and only targeting enemies within 30 ft). You're going to need a extra arms or something similar to reload (check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595)). And you're basically limited to one attack routine, which will essentially be exactly the same every round of every combat.

I have a play tested homebrew solution (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6900315&postcount=3) that would work. But if you want a RAW solution, I don't think you're going to find one that works well. If this is intended for flavor, I would simply play a standard melee build with Quickdraw, and have him whip out a repeating crossbow with Poison bolts (expensive, so only use it rarely) when it's appropriate.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-13, 12:28 PM
Hmm, probably going to have to go sniping then, isn't there a feat/item that increases the Sneak Attack/Skirmish/Precision range? Can't remember, but isn't there a stance in ToB that lets me make 10ft steps? Is there a way to get past the huge hide penalty from sniping? What level can I access Girallon Belt soulmeld? A list of high DC poisons? Ways to increase poison DC?

Aron Times
2009-10-13, 12:28 PM
The sword (usually rapier) and hand crossbow style is a pretty good build in
4E. I'm not at home right now, so I can't give you the specifics.

Eldariel
2009-10-13, 12:32 PM
Hmm, probably going to have to go sniping then, isn't there a feat/item that increases the Sneak Attack/Skirmish/Precision range? Can't remember, but isn't there a stance in ToB that lets me make 10ft steps? Is there a way to get past the huge hide penalty from sniping? What level can I access Girallon Belt soulmeld?

Crossbow Sniper also increases your SA range to 60'. In addition to adding ½ your Dex to SA damage. 10' step stance? No. You need Sparring Dummy of the Master [A&EG] or DC 45 Tumble-checks.

And yeah, it's feat intensive; Rogue could sorta pull it off though.

hamishspence
2009-10-13, 12:38 PM
Crossbow Sniper (PHB2) provides the Sneak Attack range boost to 60 ft (and a boost to damage- half your Dex bonus)

EDIT:
Ninjaed.

Versatile Combatant (Drow of the Underdark) provides the ability to make shots without provoking attacks of opportunity from people near you. (and you count as having Two Weapon Fighting for attack penalty purposes.

It does require you to use hand crossbow and rapier though.

Ways of getting More Dakka :smallbiggrin:- the Speed enchantment from the main book, and, the Splitting property from Champions of Ruin

+3 bonus property, arrows/bolts fired split into two before hitting their target- you make two attack rolls against the same target.

Effectively, doubles your firepower. It only functions if the wielder has the Precise Shot feat though.

One minus- it is possible, that the bonus arrows don't benefit from sneak attack since according to the Rules Compendium:

"Any property that enables you to make multiple attacks outside of a Full Round Action, means that those extra attacks cannot benefit from Sneak Attack: such as quickened spells, or Manyshot"

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-13, 12:54 PM
Recalling that I will have a rapier, how should I go about this? Swashbuckler/Rogue/Swordsage, perhaps? or Scout/Ranger/Swordsage?

Rixx
2009-10-13, 01:02 PM
Instead of having both of them out at the same time at all times, consider taking Quick Draw and starting out with just your crossbow. That way you don't take any attack penalties until you get into melee range - then you can pull out your rapier and start dual-weilding.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-13, 01:04 PM
Eh... would probably be best,but I tend to wary around a charge heavy environment.

Do you take penalties from TWFing if you only make attacks with one of the weapons, but have both out?

NEO|Phyte
2009-10-13, 01:08 PM
Eh... would probably be best,but I tend to wary around a charge heavy environment.

Do you take penalties from TWFing if you only make attacks with one of the weapons, but have both out?

You only take the TWF penalties if you're using the TWF special action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting). AFAIK, if you have, for example, BAB +6, you could make an attack at +6 with your mainhand and an attack at +1 with your offhand without taking the TWF penalties.

tyckspoon
2009-10-13, 01:09 PM
No. You only take the dual-wield penalties if you actually use the extra attack(s) from TWFing. You can even make your normal full attack routine using either or both weapons as you desire without triggering the penalties so long as you don't use the bonus attacks.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-13, 01:21 PM
Under poison, there's contact type poison that says it can be applied by weapon or a touch attack, does that mean I can make a touch attack with an attack if I apply the poison?

Is there a way to fire a crossbow while threatened by an enemy without provoking an AoO?

Eldariel
2009-10-13, 01:26 PM
Under poison, there's contact type poison that says it can be applied by weapon or a touch attack, does that mean I can make a touch attack with an attack if I apply the poison?

I suppose it means you can throw a vial of poison and just hope it ends on the skin or something. By RAW, I suppose you can make touch attack that deals no weapon damage but delivers the poison, as I understand it.

Doesn't make sense; armor protects you from poisoned bolt the same as from a clean one. That's what the rules seem to suggest though (though I suppose it primarily refers to a melee touch attack).


Is there a way to fire a crossbow while threatened by an enemy without provoking an AoO?

I listed two in my original post. Versatile Combatant does that, and Exotic Weapon Master does that.

Akal Saris
2009-10-13, 01:47 PM
Alright, this topic officially interested me, so here's a character I came up with using the ideas given here =)

Kalimor Srune'lett, NE Half-Drow Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 16
Actual levels: Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 1/Rogue +1/SB +1/Rogue 1/SW +14
ACFs: Drow swashbuckler 7, Drow Rogue 1, Drow fighter 1 (All from Drow of the Underdark)
Note: suffers from multi-class penalties - sorry, there's no avoiding this if you actually use those in your game.

Total BAB: +19, total sneak attack: 10d6+20 per hit, total HD: 17d10+3d6

Stats: 32 PB
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Feats:
1st: Versatile Combatant (DoTU)
1st flaw: Point Blank Shot
1st flaw: Precise Shot
2nd bonus SB: Weapon Finesse
3rd fighter: Crossbow Sniper (PHB II)
3rd: Hand Crossbow Focus (DoTU)
6th: Daring Outlaw (C. Scoundrel)
9th: Craven (Champions of Ruin)
12th: Improved Critical (Rapier)
15th: Staggering Strike (DoTU)
18th: Improved Initiative

Skills: 8+2 = 10 skills from the rogue list.

Starting equipment (estimates): Composite Shortbow (35g), Studded Leather (30g), Rapier (20g), self-crafted drow poison x3 (75g)

How it all comes together:

1st level: You have Poison Use from your Drow rogue substitution, plus the feats to use a ranged weapon efficiently - so you basically just snipe with a short bow and pretend you don't have versatile combatant or a hand crossbow yet. You also have 3 poisoned arrows which can potentially end an encounter by putting an opponent to sleep.

2nd level: Now you have weapon finesse and +1 BAB, so you can use a rapier without missing consistently. So you become the party tank! You can also afford a masterwork chain shirt, masterwork tools (mostly for crafting poisons and searching for traps, I'd assume), and lots more poisons.

3rd level: Now suddenly you have Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents (Drow fighter), as well as 1/2 Dex to damage with crossbows (Crossbow sniper), plus weapon focus and rapid reload with a hand crossbow.

So at this point the tactic of charging in with a crossbow and rapier actually becomes viable - assuming no magical bonuses and a pair of masterwork weapons, you should be attacking at +5 for 1d6+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed) with the rapier, and +6 for 1d4+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed foes) with the crossbow. In addition to whatever poisons you've applied to your bolts and rapier - I like Roach Paste and Drow Poison on most things.

4th-5th level: Nothing special here, Dex gets bumped. For items, I'd get the Gloves of Dexterity ASAP, and some weapon crystals for quickdraw on your weapons is very helpful (MIC).

6th level: Daring Outlaw kicks into play, so you suddenly gain +1 Dodge to AC, but more importantly Sneak attack jumps from +1d6 to +3d6 damage. A Ring of the Darkhidden (MIC) is a great asset to stealth against creatures with darkvision, as are Trackless Boots (DoTU) against creatures with scent.

7th: Now you add your Int to damage with the rapier. Adding the Assassination or Toxic/Virulent properties to your rapier to keep your poisons competitive is a good idea at this point.

8th: Dex gets bumped, adding to your damage, attacks, reflex, AC, and initiative. If you can use the online addition to SB, you can also use Bluff to seduce people =) The Ring of Anticipation (DoTU) is a good pick by this point, allowing you to roll 2x for initiative, helping to catch opponents flat-footed.

9th: Craven adds your character level to damage with sneak attacks, so you'll be dealing +4d6+9 (+4d6 +14 against flat-footed) with sneak attacks.
The Bracers of Murder (DoTU) are a great pick at this point, allowing you to reroll 1's on sneak attacks, as well as gaining +2 to att/dmg against flat-footed foes.

11th: Drow swashbuckler kicks in, allowing you to 5-ft step as a swift action whenever you hit once with at least each weapon in a round. Or you can keep Acrobatic Charge, but drow swashbuckler is a much more stylish effect in my mind.

12th: You now gain +4 on flanking from swashbuckler, and improved critical with the rapier

15th: Now whenever you critical with a rapier, the opponent is automatically slowed with no save, which should cut down on the mobility of anything trying to do Flyby Attack, or the deadliness of anything with nasty iterative attacks - such as practically every opponent you face by this point.

18th: This is pretty much an 'anything goes' feat slot, but I think it's pretty imperative to do anything possible to act before the spellcasters do at this point. Also, Weakening Critical from SB kicks in, allowing you to deal 2 Str damage to a creature every critical - combine it with 3d6 Str damage from Dragon Bile or another Str-based poison and anything not immune will drop fast.

Character roles and tactics:
The primary role is damage-dealer, which should be strong from 1st to 20th, but really increases in power at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level. The character is also a strong skills-monkey and scout from 1st-6th, but will be less efficient in that role afterwards due to the SB's mediocre skills list. The character is also a very solid tank, with 17d10+3d6 HP over the course of 20 levels - and as she gets weaker as a skills character her tanking should improve.

Finally, the character has more versatility in tactics than most damage-based classes - he can switch between melee and ranged combat easily, and poison use allows him to attack ability scores directly instead of just damage, or deal Con damage along with HP damage to drop a foe even faster than normal.

Ideally, the character will function as the scout and tank, initiating every combat at the front line against flat-footed foes. After the first round, he'll probably need to tumble around behind an opponent to flank with an ally if he wants to keep generating sneak attacks, or rely on magic items for sneak attacks (ring of blinking, greater invisibility, etc)


Hmm, probably going to have to go sniping then, isn't there a feat/item that increases the Sneak Attack/Skirmish/Precision range? Can't remember, but isn't there a stance in ToB that lets me make 10ft steps? Is there a way to get past the huge hide penalty from sniping? What level can I access Girallon Belt soulmeld? A list of high DC poisons? Ways to increase poison DC?

The poison user's handbook (by me!): http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

Person_Man
2009-10-13, 02:41 PM
Recalling that I will have a rapier, how should I go about this? Swashbuckler/Rogue/Swordsage, perhaps? or Scout/Ranger/Swordsage?

My guess would be Scout 3/Rogue X

Scout/Rogue with the Swift Ambusher lets your Scout and Rogue levels stack for Skirmish and Sneak Attack.

To qualify for Sneak Attack every turn, you're going to want to work with a friendly spellcaster. Have him cast Greater Invisibility on you, and/or cast battlefield control spells that deny enemies their Dex bonus (there's a bunch), and/or Summon things that Grapple enemies. It's important to mix up your tactics on this one, so that the DM doesn't feel the need to banhammer you and/or suddenly make you fight a huge number of encounters against enemies with True Seeing and/or Freedom of Movement.

To qualify for Skirmish, choose your favorite option from this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Press the Advantage is probably the most reliable/least cheesy, but there are literally dozens of options.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-13, 05:44 PM
Could I hit the person in front of me twice, then hit the other two once with my sword and after fire 1 bolt at each ranged enemy? No, you cannot.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. You can use either the sword or crossbow at each AB number, but you've got to use all your +X AB numbers together before you can use +(X-5) AB numbers.

You need Sparring Dummy of the Master [A&EG] or DC 45 Tumble-checks. That's DC 40 to Tumble 10' in place of a 5' step, not 45. (Extreme Tumbling table, Oriental Adventures, page 58.)

Scout/Rogue with the Swift Ambusher lets your Scout and Rogue levels stack for Skirmish and Sneak Attack. I corrected this to match the actual characteristics of the feat. Because Swift Ambusher only benefits skirmish, you'll want just the minimum Scout levels (3) required so you don't lose out on too much sneak attack damage.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-13, 08:02 PM
Assuming I move atleast 10ft, can I get both SA and Skirmish on the same attack?

Where can I find the LA0 drow?

Curmudgeon
2009-10-13, 08:07 PM
Assuming I move atleast 10ft, can I get both SA and Skirmish on the same attack?
Yes.

Where can I find the LA0 drow?
The lesser drow is in Player's Guide to Faerūn on page 191.

Akal Saris
2009-10-13, 08:25 PM
There is also the half-drow, which can be found in Drow of the Underdark at the end of the book, or in 1 of the faerun books (races of faerun, most likely), and as a variant in dragon magic as well.

It has the advantage of being a (poorly) documented race rather than a variant racial option presented before the idea of racial classes was designed, and the disadvantage of being a half-elf in 3.5.

sambo.
2009-10-13, 08:38 PM
Ways to increase poison DC?

usually you'll have to craft said poison yourself. i think Drow Of The Underdark has a Craft: Poisonmaking skill.

the one i'm using is the Craft: Poisonmaking from the third party Poison and Plot splatbook.

basically, increasing the DC of the poison is expensive in terms of raw materials.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-13, 10:55 PM
Inrelation to other mundane substances? Or Enhancement bonus (exponentially) expensive?

Akal Saris
2009-10-13, 11:10 PM
Read the handbook I posted earlier...there are about a half-dozen ways to improve poison DCs, including weapon enhancements, feats, spells and buffs, a prestige class, and bardic music.

Generally you'll want to just switch to a higher DC poison rather than trying to improve the DC for the same poison, and most of the methods to enhance poison DCs are more effort than they are worth.

Hawriel
2009-10-13, 11:32 PM
I would imagine that the crossbow bolt would fall off when you engage in melee.

Edit

Oh forgot to ask, how would you reload it in melee?

Also when in melee and you try to shoot another person at range. How do you not leave your self wide open?

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 01:59 AM
That's DC 40 to Tumble 10' in place of a 5' step, not 45. (Extreme Tumbling table, Oriental Adventures, page 58.)

Woah, right you are. I somehow had the Slow Fall option under it imprinted in my mind. Ah well, good that that got clarified.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-14, 02:09 AM
Other methods to get 10 foot movement:

Elocater 7 (Expanded Psionics Handbook). Gets a pair of 5 foot steps in a round.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-14, 06:36 AM
I would imagine that the crossbow bolt would fall off when you engage in melee.

Edit

Oh forgot to ask, how would you reload it in melee?

Also when in melee and you try to shoot another person at range. How do you not leave your self wide open?

I suppose I will take some of these guys suggestions and pick up versatile combatant to shoot while in melee, or get someone to cast arrowmind on me.

Edit: Is it possible to get a potion of arrow mind?

Cieyrin
2009-10-14, 12:12 PM
I suppose I will take some of these guys suggestions and pick up versatile combatant to shoot while in melee, or get someone to cast arrowmind on me.

Edit: Is it possible to get a potion of arrow mind?

Arrowmind is Personal range, so no potions or people casting it on you. You gotta do it yourself, whether by scroll, wand or your own casting.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 12:15 PM
I suggest that one level of Exotic Weapon Master. It gets you Close-Combat Shot. Much cleaner, if not taking Versatile Combatant.

hamishspence
2009-10-14, 12:16 PM
Arrowmind is Personal range, so no potions or people casting it on you. You gotta do it yourself, whether by scroll, wand or your own casting.

Worse than that- it's bows only. the Complete Warrior version explicitly lists bows only.

The Spell Compendium version says "anything that fires arrows" but still uses "arrows" rather than "projectiles"

So by RAW, no Arrowmind for a crossbow-user.

Andras
2009-10-14, 12:19 PM
I guess this is as good a thread to ask as any. How legal is the use of quick draw with regards to freeing a hand to reload a crossbow? For example, assuming both hands were full, could I stow whatever's in the other hand and reload with the now free hand between shots of a full attack?

hamishspence
2009-10-14, 12:27 PM
Drawing a weapon is a Move action. Sheathing it is a Move Action (Rules Compendium)

QuickDraw allows you to draw weapons as a free action- but it doesn't say you can sheathe one as a free action.

Generally, free actions can take place in the middle of a full round action (loading your weapon, in the case of a bow, or a crossbow with Rapid Reload, for example.)

Do most people rule that Quick Draw allows quick sheathing as well as quick drawing?

And is "stowing an item" a move action like "sheathing a weapon" is?

Andras
2009-10-14, 12:38 PM
Drawing a weapon is a Move action. Sheathing it is a Move Action (Rules Compendium)

QuickDraw allows you to draw weapons as a free action- but it doesn't say you can sheathe one as a free action.

Generally, free actions can take place in the middle of a full round action (loading your weapon, in the case of a bow, or a crossbow with Rapid Reload, for example.)

Do most people rule that Quick Draw allows quick sheathing as well as quick drawing?

And is "stowing an item" a move action like "sheathing a weapon" is?

By stowing I meant sheathing or whatever you want to call it. It's mostly just that I was thinking of a second crossbow in the other hand, and a crossbow sheath just sounds...awkward.

Generally I've ruled that it does, because it would make sense given that one general use of it as far as I know is swapping out weapons, which would be strange if half of that trade didn't work. I guess what I'm getting at is, is the free-action-in-the-middle-of-a-full-attack thing an exception (for stuff like Rapid Reload) or a rule?

hamishspence
2009-10-14, 12:47 PM
I'd say it could be a rule- there isn't much detail in the books as I recall.

Can somebody fire two crossbows, with Rapid Reload, as part of full round action, getting full BAB?

Iffy. Even with Rapid Reload, loading requires two hands, even of a hand crossbow.

It would be a case of "put away bow B , load bow A, fire bow A, put away bow A, take out bow B, fire bow B"

All this between each shot with one or the other bow.

(alternatively, load and fire four shots in succession, put away bow and whisk out the other, load and fire several shots)

If "Quick loading" allows you to load the bow one handed as well, based on the fact that it states that it attaches an extradimensional space to the bow, and bolts load into the bow from the extradimensional space,

then, if your bows are Quick Loading, then they could be argued as automatically loading themselves as a free action.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 01:03 PM
Quick Draw can be used with the free action to drop item. Sheathing is not doable. After combat, you can pick all the dropped items up. Also, Glove of Storing allows for some trickery, particularly recharging Crossbow while using an item in the other hand (it's Free Action to put an item into the Glove and remove one from it).

hamishspence
2009-10-14, 01:15 PM
But I'm guessing it still requires a free hand.

I checked and while loading a Quick Loading Bow is a free action, it still says "Activation: Manipulation" and all "Manipulation" activations require a free hand- the hand on the trigger is not a free hand.

Annoying. I liked the notion of a crossbow that loads and pulls back the string itself on mental command.

Cieyrin
2009-10-14, 01:41 PM
Would it be too much to self plug my Crossbow Slinger PRC in my sig, which deals specifically with dual-wielding crossbows and the troubles involved?

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 01:54 PM
But I'm guessing it still requires a free hand.

I checked and while loading a Quick Loading Bow is a free action, it still says "Activation: Manipulation" and all "Manipulation" activations require a free hand- the hand on the trigger is not a free hand.

Annoying. I liked the notion of a crossbow that loads and pulls back the string itself on mental command.

Glove of Storing solves this. Put whatever is in your Gloved hand into the Glove as a Free Action, reload the bow as a Free Action and return the item as a Free Action. Ta-da! No Quick-Loading necessary.

Darrin
2009-10-14, 05:05 PM
Glove of Storing solves this. Put whatever is in your Gloved hand into the Glove as a Free Action, reload the bow as a Free Action and return the item as a Free Action. Ta-da! No Quick-Loading necessary.

For a cheaper Glove of Storing, see the Glove of the Master Strategist in Ghostwalk.

You could also probably do something with a Gnome Quickrazor (Races of Stone, free action to draw/sheath) with the Adaptive weapon property.

There's a spell in Dragon Magic I think that magically reloads a crossbow... I forget exactly what it's called Ghostly Reload? Something like that. It's a 1st level spell, so a continuous-use magic item should be fairly cheap. Otherwise, wand chamber (100 GP) + wand (750 GP).

You could also try adding hands... Spare Hand in MIC, Girallon's Blessing, etc.

hamishspence
2009-10-14, 05:08 PM
No Quick-Loading necessary.

It solves the fact that Quick Loading doesn't actually free up your hand.

It is still a very good property- 100 bolts stored- which you can select from at will.

"Grenade"
"Double whammy"
"Armour piercing"

You get the idea :smallbiggrin:

I wonder- one glove of storing plus two crossbows- could one fire the one crossbow with main hand, drop it in the glove, retrieve the other, and continue firing with off-hand?

Cieyrin
2009-10-14, 05:22 PM
For a cheaper Glove of Storing, see the Glove of the Master Strategist in Ghostwalk.

You could also probably do something with a Gnome Quickrazor (Races of Stone, free action to draw/sheath) with the Adaptive weapon property.

There's a spell in Dragon Magic I think that magically reloads a crossbow... I forget exactly what it's called Ghostly Reload? Something like that. It's a 1st level spell, so a continuous-use magic item should be fairly cheap. Otherwise, wand chamber (100 GP) + wand (750 GP).

You could also try adding hands... Spare Hand in MIC, Girallon's Blessing, etc.

Ghostly Reload is in Races of the Dragon, actually. Caps at 10 reloads for light and hand crossbows, 5 for heavy before being expended, so not sure how it would work as a continuous item. You'd almost want it quickened so you can do Rapid Shot a heavy or great crossbow, though you're gonna be blowing through wand uses really quickly.

EDIT:
I wonder- one glove of storing plus two crossbows- could one fire the one crossbow with main hand, drop it in the glove, retrieve the other, and continue firing with off-hand?

There really isn't an action for switching a crossbow between hands and I also don't think the Glove lets you switch the item in hand with the shrunk item.

What I'd recommend is a Kimono of Storing, which lets you store two items like the Glove, since you can only have 1 Glove on.

ericgrau
2009-10-14, 05:53 PM
0. You can't reload without a free hand. Though there may be a way around this. Dropping your sword, rapid reloading the crossbow and quick drawing a new one is three free actions. And hilarious to do 5 times as part of a full attack each round. <clank> <clank> <clank> <clank> <clank>
1. No, just the normal -2 for TWF.
2. Undefined. Some house rule as free action, some as move.
3. You can split up as desired. You can even do just as many attacks as needed to drop a foe (without needing to guess how many that is ahead of time), 5 foot step, then continue attacking another foe.
4. It's semi viable already. You may want to deal with AoO's while firing your crossbow. Maybe just get a high AC by mixing armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor and dusty rose prism ioun stone bonuses. Generally with many attacks you want a source of bonus damage. Maybe sneak attack. Maybe you could quick draw seventeen different spell storing swords, if you use my #0 tip. Use appropriately typed bane bolts for the crossbow. Etc.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-14, 06:56 PM
Is there a way to get past poison immunity? Do the good poisons (ravages i think) get past poison immunity since there not really poison?

Cieyrin
2009-10-14, 07:20 PM
Is there a way to get past poison immunity? Do the good poisons (ravages i think) get past poison immunity since there not really poison?

Ravages do ignore poison immunity for evil creatures, even doing bonus damage against outsiders and whatnot. They act like poisons without being such.:smalltongue:

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-10-14, 07:50 PM
That's terribly awesome, now just need a way to get a Death-attack that's not, Energy Drain that's not, unhealable Vile damage that's not, and Mindrape that's not, to complete my Lawful Good character. :smallamused:

"In the name of Pelor, I must take control of your mind and drain away all your levels. It would be against my alignment not to."

Btw where can I find the Drow racial sub levels?