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View Full Version : Could you replicate the Locate City Bomb with Fell Drain?



Milskidasith
2009-10-13, 12:05 PM
Now, I'm not entirely well versed on the Locate City Bomb technique, but if I recall correctly it didn't work because all that would happen was it would send everybody in the area flying an inch and taking minor damage, correct? But if you applied Fell Drain on top of that, couldn't you just drain a negative level out of everybody in range, still instagibbing most commoners?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-13, 12:52 PM
That's the idea. You replace Born of Three Thunders and Explosive Spell with Fell Drain, promptly killing all Commoners within the radius. 24 hours after, they rise.

Boci
2009-10-13, 01:02 PM
Throw in fell animate if you're pressed for time.

root9125
2009-10-13, 01:10 PM
Bad idea... still can only create 2x your HD of undead with a single casting.

Boci
2009-10-13, 01:14 PM
Bad idea... still can only create 2x your HD of undead with a single casting.

Dread necromancer using a scroll?

lsfreak
2009-10-13, 01:28 PM
EDIT: Nevermind, can't read. A wightocalypse is much more effective than a zombie apocalypse, even if you can turn them all into zombies, since wights automatically reproduce. I'm sure you can wait 24 hours.

Oslecamo
2009-10-13, 01:30 PM
Now, I'm not entirely well versed on the Locate City Bomb technique, but if I recall correctly it didn't work because all that would happen was it would send everybody in the area flying an inch and taking minor damage, correct? But if you applied Fell Drain on top of that, couldn't you just drain a negative level out of everybody in range, still instagibbing most commoners?

Not even that. You would need to make them move at least 10 feets to take damage, but since they move only a few inches if anything fell drain won't trigger.

Kylarra
2009-10-13, 01:32 PM
Not even that. You would need to make them move at least 10 feets to take damage, but since they move only a few inches if anything fell drain won't trigger.The frost flash aspect is dealing damage, not explosive spell.

Oslecamo
2009-10-13, 01:39 PM
Considering that planets have a curvature, and that commoners spend a good cunk of their days kneeling or climbing stuff, you still won't hit that many targets.

Kylarra
2009-10-13, 01:41 PM
Considering that planets have a curvature, and that commoners spend a good cunk of their days kneeling or climbing stuff, you still won't hit that many targets.Well strictly speaking you don't need to hit that many targets to start the wightocalypse.

Kelpstrand
2009-10-13, 01:43 PM
Considering that planets have a curvature, and that commoners spend a good cunk of their days kneeling or climbing stuff, you still won't hit that many targets.

Ah yes, the old "Locate City doesn't actually locate cities" defense.

Oslecamo
2009-10-13, 07:45 PM
Ah yes, the old "Locate City doesn't actually locate cities" defense.

It does, it's just really lousy at it.

What did you expect from a lv1 spell?

You'll probably have an easier time trying to find that high elven city with towers of several hundreds meters high tough.

Kelpstrand
2009-10-13, 07:51 PM
It does, it's just really lousy at it.

What did you expect from a lv1 spell?

You'll probably have an easier time trying to find that high elven city with towers of several hundreds meters high tough.

Unless it's on a mountain, or in the trees. Or you happen to be at sea level, in which case, **** you.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-13, 08:03 PM
Speaking of being in trees...

In order to work, shouldn't locate city work as a spherical spread, in order to, y'know, actually locate cities?

Which, of course, means it would work for da locate city bomb.

Otherwise, it basically only allows you to find a city you can probably see anyway.

Siosilvar
2009-10-13, 08:17 PM
Locate City was probably intended to trace out a circle on the "sphere" of your planet and find every city within that circle.

See also: Spherical geometry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_geometry)

EDIT: Thus following the curvature of the earth.

ericgrau
2009-10-13, 08:25 PM
Considering that planets have a curvature, and that commoners spend a good cunk of their days kneeling or climbing stuff, you still won't hit that many targets.

Earth has a radius of 4000 miles, or 21,120,000 feet. A Kneeling peasant is about 3 feet tall. Draw a triangle from the center of the earth to the center of the spell to the head of said peasant. Let r = the radius to said peasant from the center of the spell. Using the pythagorean theorom:

r^2 + 21,120,000 ^ 2 = 21,120,003 ^ 2
r^2 = 21,120,003 ^ 2 - 21,120,000 ^ 2
r^2 = 126720009
r = 126720009^.5 = 11257 feet, or 2.13 miles.

i.e., nearly all peasants within a 2.13 mile radius are still wights.

Now as for terrain that's ever so slightly off-level...

Ya, best to assume locate city need not be perfectly flat.

Kelpstrand
2009-10-13, 08:56 PM
Speaking of being in trees...

In order to work, shouldn't locate city work as a spherical spread, in order to, y'know, actually locate cities?

Which, of course, means it would work for da locate city bomb.

Otherwise, it basically only allows you to find a city you can probably see anyway.

That's precisely Oslecamo's defense against the Locate City Bomb.

He's saying "but it's a circle not a sphere, so no go."

Personally, I'm okay with just saying "The Prime Material Plane is not a Planet. It does not curve at all." And so only Mountains/Trees/You being 50ft in the air/ect. matter.

Of course, for locating cities, you still have to decide what a 'city' is. Since if only part of the city is in the effect, does it locate it? Does the ground under the city count? ect. A bunch of crap I don't want to deal with.

So instead I just also say "Locate City is a Sphere" it let's people actually find cities.

And if they want to locate city bomb? Cool, right off the bat, all those wights aren't under their control. And they better hope that no higher level Wizards without some kind of negative level protection were in the effect, seeing as they might respond with: Divination + Scry + Teleport + Don't use indiscriminate effects or I will kill you (possibly expressed through murder).

Jack_Simth
2009-10-13, 09:43 PM
And if they want to locate city bomb? Cool, right off the bat, all those wights aren't under their control. And they better hope that no higher level Wizards without some kind of negative level protection were in the effect, seeing as they might respond with: Divination + Scry + Teleport + Don't use indiscriminate effects or I will kill you (possibly expressed through murder).

Well, even if there is a Wizard that's got negative level protection in effect is in the area... he may still be annoyed at the lost charge from his Scarab of Protection. Those get expensive if you need a lot of them.

Kelpstrand
2009-10-13, 09:49 PM
Well, even if there is a Wizard that's got negative level protection in effect is in the area... he may still be annoyed at the lost charge from his Scarab of Protection. Those get expensive if you need a lot of them.

Or that. I was mostly thinking of the being undead kind.

They probably don't mind it very much.

Burley
2009-10-14, 06:40 AM
What if I wanted to apply something like this on Locate Person?
What feats would I have to take?

Bayar
2009-10-14, 06:54 AM
What if I wanted to apply something like this on Locate Person?
What feats would I have to take?

Are you trying to create the Locate Person Tactical Nuke ?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-14, 08:16 AM
Are you trying to create the Locate Person Tactical Nuke ?

You say that as if it's a bad idea. :smallwink:

Triaxx
2009-10-14, 09:06 AM
Hmm... sounds workable. Especially used on a messenger sent to find your real target. Locate person on the messenger, set the trigger to the message being read...

Of course it's not as much fun as a messenger sent with: I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

Johel
2009-10-14, 09:53 AM
Hmm... sounds workable. Especially used on a messenger sent to find your real target. Locate person on the messenger, set the trigger to the message being read...

Of course it's not as much fun as a messenger sent with: I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

That's basically suicide bombing with assistance through satellite, just in case that bloody terrorist hesitate to blow himself.
But again, the man doesn't need to know... :smallamused:

*scroll of sending*
"-Master, I've successfully infiltrated the rebel base."
"-Good... You've outlived your usefulness"
*cast Discern Location*
*trigger the spell cheese*

Tiktakkat
2009-10-14, 01:56 PM
That's the idea. You replace Born of Three Thunders and Explosive Spell with Fell Drain, promptly killing all Commoners within the radius. 24 hours after, they rise.

How exactly does that combination cause damage?

Milskidasith
2009-10-14, 02:00 PM
Flash Frost adds damage.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-14, 02:07 PM
Flash Frost adds damage.

Locate City does not have the Cold descriptor; you cannot add Flash Frost to it.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-14, 02:20 PM
1: Take Locate City, a spell with a range of ten miles per level
2: Apply Snowcasting (Frostburn) to it, making it a [Cold] spell
3: Apply Flash Frost (PHBII) to it, making it deal 2 cold damage to everything in the area
4:Apply Energy Substitution (CArc) to it, making it an electric spell
5: Apply Born of the Three Thunders to it, allowing a reflex save to avoid the damage and changing the damage type
6: Apply Explosive Spell to it, forcing a second Reflex save to avoid being blasted to the edge of the area and 1d6(?) per ten feet traveled.

That took 2 seconds to find on Google. I strongly advise research before attempting to counter somebody's argument.

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 02:28 PM
So instead I just also say "Locate City is a Sphere" it let's people actually find cities.

It's a nice houserule, but not really RAW.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-14, 03:16 PM
That took 2 seconds to find on Google. I strongly advise research before attempting to counter somebody's argument.

You have very impressive google skills.
Of course, my reply to it not working with only Flash Frost remains correct. I strongly advise reading the available response before recommending using a search engine to reply to a question.

Side note:
The final FAQ "changes" the effect of arcane thesis, directly contradicting the errata in the PHB II errata for that spell.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-14, 03:32 PM
Side note:
The final FAQ "changes" the effect of arcane thesis, directly contradicting the errata in the PHB II errata for that spell.

...which is basically irrelevant, because in general the FAQ, the Sage, etc. are 100% official, 0% accurate. :smallwink:

jiriku
2009-10-14, 03:58 PM
Begin with large area spell, such as locate city.
Snowcasting adds cold descriptor, qualifying for energy substitution and flash frost.
Flash frost adds damage, qualifying for later feats.
Energy substitution replaced cold descriptor with electricity descriptor, qualifying for born of the three thunders.
Born of the three thunders adds a reflex save, qualifying for explosive spell.
Explosive spell is the workhorse feat, dealing all of the real damage.
Alternately, Fell drain inflicts negative levels.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-14, 04:31 PM
Locate City does not have the Cold descriptor; you cannot add Flash Frost to it.



Of course, my reply to it not working with only Flash Frost remains correct. I strongly advise reading the available response before recommending using a search engine to reply to a question.

The response was that you cannot add Flash Frost to Locate City. This is incorrect; you can add Flash Frost to Locate City. You must use an intermediary, but as Flash Frost is itself used purely as an intermediary, the use of intermediaries is not unprecented.

Volkov
2009-10-14, 04:34 PM
That's precisely Oslecamo's defense against the Locate City Bomb.

He's saying "but it's a circle not a sphere, so no go."

Personally, I'm okay with just saying "The Prime Material Plane is not a Planet. It does not curve at all." And so only Mountains/Trees/You being 50ft in the air/ect. matter.

Of course, for locating cities, you still have to decide what a 'city' is. Since if only part of the city is in the effect, does it locate it? Does the ground under the city count? ect. A bunch of crap I don't want to deal with.

So instead I just also say "Locate City is a Sphere" it let's people actually find cities.

And if they want to locate city bomb? Cool, right off the bat, all those wights aren't under their control. And they better hope that no higher level Wizards without some kind of negative level protection were in the effect, seeing as they might respond with: Divination + Scry + Teleport + Don't use indiscriminate effects or I will kill you (possibly expressed through murder).
The prime material plane is a universe, Oerth is a planet in it.

Irreverent Fool
2009-10-14, 04:37 PM
If you want to get down to it, the Locate City Bomb does not work because even with Snowcasting (which allows you to add the cold discriptor to any spell), a spell with a damage value of nil cannot have +2 added to it. This is not spelled out in the RAW, but neither is "Locate City is actually a sphere". If you're going to abuse RAW, you must use all of the RAW and not just pick and choose which parts you want.

Oh, and if you don't know what the Locate City bomb is, feel free to look it up on google. The most relevant one should link you back to these forums and should be entitled "Locate City Bomb, I'm a noob, what is it?"

Short answer: No.

obnoxious
sig

Volkov
2009-10-14, 04:50 PM
The wizard in the party I DM'd went for something more grandoise than a locate city bomb. He built an literal 114 megaton Nuclear device, teleported it into the Abysm of Demogorgon and set it to detonate in the demon lord's face. Incinerating him and the entire structure as well as many billions of demons. He got Bonus XP for the clever trick.

flabort
2009-10-14, 07:54 PM
Hmm...

This thread is about divination Meta-magicced to $#%@ and back, eh?

Contact Other Plane+SnowCasting+FlashFrost+FellDrain... Outsider Undead?



Nah, I suck at Meta-magic... although... Heh, heh, heh... adding MAXIMIZED to your Mega-destroy-a-city-and-turn-it-to-undead "Locate City Bomb" would be just awsome.

Volkov
2009-10-14, 07:58 PM
Another time, the wizard just teleported a 30 mile in diameter meteor, slamming it into the planet at 20 km/s on a city because the merchant's fares were a few gold pieces too high for his liking.

I kid you not.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-15, 12:16 AM
...which is basically irrelevant, because in general the FAQ, the Sage, etc. are 100% official, 0% accurate. :smallwink:

MEGA-SHRUG

Yeah, been there, done that, got the warnings from the WizOs over it.
I am just noting it. I did not save my prior FAQs (I actually deleted all of them after the last one came out), so I do not know if that particular response was added before or after the PHB II errata was posted. I do recall a nice, frenzied threat on the WotC forums over the abuse of arcane thesis (via gratuitous use of 0 level metamagic add ons to reduce overall spell level), so I strongly suspect they FAQratted their errata. That is one I happen to use (the FAQ is actually not 0% accurate, though it is about 20% stealth errata). Others are free to assign whatever weight they like to it.


The response was that you cannot add Flash Frost to Locate City. This is incorrect; you can add Flash Frost to Locate City. You must use an intermediary, but as Flash Frost is itself used purely as an intermediary, the use of intermediaries is not unprecented.

It is not incorrect.
You cannot add it to that spell.
You can add it to that spell if is modified with something else, but that is not the same thing.
While the use of intermediaries is not unprecedented, it does not make their existence implied, or mandate it must be assumed and known, by default.

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 12:24 AM
It is not incorrect.
You cannot add it to that spell.
You can add it to that spell if is modified with something else, but that is not the same thing.
While the use of intermediaries is not unprecedented, it does not make their existence implied, or mandate it must be assumed and known, by default.Considering the initial statement was about the combination, it should be assumed in default that the modifications were to the initial combination, not a vacuum.

Keld Denar
2009-10-15, 12:36 AM
Actually, I find the biggest problem with Locate City Bombs is whether or not metamagic stacks up or if it only applies to the base spell.

Copied from a previous post to avoid retyping the arguement:

Reach spell is rather debatable. It depends on how metamagic stacking is handled, which is barely covered. We know that damage is always factored seperately (given the interaction between Empower and Maximize), but whether you can use 1 MM feat to qualify for another MM feat is totally not covered anywhere in the core rules. The closest thing is the interaction between Rapid Spell (CDivine) and Quicken Spell in the Special clause following the feat description.


Special: A spell can be made rapid and quickened only if its original casting time was 1 full round. <snip>

Neither Reach Spell nor Chain Spell contain any type of clause like this. Its even rather debatable whether or not you can chain Arcane Reached spells, since you don't prepare the spell with Arcane Reach, and you can't normally apply MM feats to spells that they don't qualify for.

So yea, whether you could Reach and then Chain a spell is...contestable as design intent and thus up to DM interpretation.

Similarly, there is no support in the rules that dictates you can apply metamagic to spells that don't qualify for it. Can a character prepare a Split Ray'd Fireball? What if that character were a Wizard/Spellwarped Sniper, who can convert any area spell into a ray. The conversion happens spontaneously, and when the spell is prepped, it doesn't qualify for Split Ray. Same with Locate City. When the spell is prepped, it doesn't qualify for Explosive Spell, or Fell Draining, by itself. Can these effects be prepared sequentially? The rules are rather clear, although in the case of Empower + Maximize (example of explicit non-stacking) and Rapid Spell + Quicken Spell (example of explicit stacking as a special case), I'd be inclined to say no, unless someone else can cite other sources that prove otherwise.

Random832
2009-10-15, 12:45 AM
There is no rule, full stop, that says metamagic has to have an effect. There is no such thing, at least in the SRD, as spells that do or do not qualify to have a metamagic feat applied to them. There is no rule that says you can't waste two spell levels to "empower" a spell with no variable numeric effects even if you _don't_ do anything else to give it variable numeric effects.

Oh, and empower+maximize is an example of explicit stacking. non-stacking would be to give you the greater of the two.

Widen Spell: " Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat. " rather than "You may not apply this feat to spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts." You can apply it, it just won't have an effect.