Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion =][= : Heresy Grown From Idleness

[chiasaur11]

Well, we were at fifty on the old 40k fluff thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105150). Time for a new one.

I believe we were discussing gender roles in Tau and Eldar society?

[loopy]

Can anyone remember the name of a novel that had, as one of its protagonists, a guy press-ganged into service in the Imperial Navy, who through a series of lucky events, manages to catch the eye of the captain and get himself promoted to Petty Officer (and higher, eventually)?

[YPU]

Going further on that question, what are good novels that feature or focus upon fleet combat. I am back to painting my BFG fleets and would like to do some reading on the matter as well. (thank you GW for sending me 6 chaos cruisers to replace a single defect one.)

[hamishspence]

Can anyone remember the name of a novel that had, as one of its protagonists, a guy press-ganged into service in the Imperial Navy, who through a series of lucky events, manages to catch the eye of the captain and get himself promoted to Petty Officer (and higher, eventually)?

Execution Hour by Gordon Rennie. Sequel- Shadow Point.

They are both good books in my view. (and while not focusing heavily on fleet combat, are among the books that focus more on space warfare- ship to ship, fighters as well.)

[loopy]

Execution Hour by Gordon Rennie. Sequel- Shadow Point.

They are both good books in my view. (and while not focusing heavily on fleet combat, are among the books that focus more on space warfare- ship to ship, fighters as well.)

Gordon Rennie! Thank you for that, been driving me nuts for about... 5 years now.

[Lycan 01]

Well, I finished the 2nd Gaunt's Ghosts omnibus. It was pretty good. It made me laugh, it made me sad, it made me cheer, it made me yell... Honestly, the GG series is one of the best things I've ever read in my life. It makes me sad that the 3rd collection doesn't come out until next April. :smallfrown:

So, I've got half a year to kill. What are some 40K books ya'll would suggest? :smallbiggrin:

(I'm not keen on "the big picture" sort of stories. I'm not fond of keeping track of several plots all at once across different planets... Thus, the Horus Heresy might not float my boat. Or it might. But I prefer smaller settings... Squad combat, and stuff like that. Orks, 'nids, or Chaos as antagonists are preferable.)

[Platinius]

Well the first I can think of is the Eisenhorn series, solid plot, character development, action and it offers a good insight into the imperial society in general nd the iniquisitorial one in particular.
The second I can think of the book series about Ragnar Blackmane of the Space Wolves, fun read, lots of action and a working plot in the second, third and forth book (the first is about his actual initiation and doesn't need a plot the same way the other books do)

[Zorg]

Titanicus is great, but I'm a Titan shill...

The Ciaphas Cain series is great - it's almost a satire of Gaunts Ghosts but is well written enough that there is some really good character development. They do suffer a bit from "and then the Necrons showed up" as a plot device.

Similarly the Guard Omnibus is good (Deathworld is a very fun read) but is let down that all the stories are about fighting Orks.

The Blood Bowl Omnibus is hysterical, and has some really, really well rounded, believable, likable characters with personalities.

[Tavar]

Well, everyone should read about CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

Double Eagle, by the same author of Gaunts Ghost is also good.

[hamishspence]

The Ciaphas Cain series- beginning with For The Emperor.

The first 3 are available in an omnibus.

They are among the more popular 40K books- sometimes described as "Blackadder in 40K" or "Flashman in 40K"

The Ultramarine series is also quite well known, though not as funny.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

[Platinius]

The VanillaUltramarines are not known for being funny:smallwink:

[EleventhHour]

Similarly the Guard Omnibus is good (Deathworld is a very fun read) but is let down that all the stories are about fighting Orks.

That it's Orks? Not so bad, one of the primary enemies of Man. That each of them have the plot device of "This one is a smart Ork." is bothersome.

[Talkkno]

Well i haven't seen an Ork warboss that wasn't characterized as "smarter then he looks".

[Arcanoi]

Ork Warbosses are defined as having intelligence exponentially related to their size. The largest Ork Warbosses, such as the Arch-Arsonist and Ghazghull, are capable of going toe-to-toe with many of the more brilliant tactical minds in the Imperium.

[Krrth]

Well, I finished the 2nd Gaunt's Ghosts omnibus. It was pretty good. It made me laugh, it made me sad, it made me cheer, it made me yell... Honestly, the GG series is one of the best things I've ever read in my life. It makes me sad that the 3rd collection doesn't come out until next April. :smallfrown:

So, I've got half a year to kill. What are some 40K books ya'll would suggest? :smallbiggrin:

(I'm not keen on "the big picture" sort of stories. I'm not fond of keeping track of several plots all at once across different planets... Thus, the Horus Heresy might not float my boat. Or it might. But I prefer smaller settings... Squad combat, and stuff like that. Orks, 'nids, or Chaos as antagonists are preferable.)

Well, the new Salamander book wasn't bad.

[Lycan 01]

I suppose I should have mentioned Ciaphas Cain was the first 40K series I read. :smallredface: I've got the whole collection on my shelf. I wish they'd make a new one... :smallfrown:

Imperial Guard omnibus, you say? Sounds interesting. Think I saw it at Borders a few weeks ago...


Anything else? :smallconfused:

[Tavar]

Well, there was one published in 2008, Cain's Last Stand.

[Cheesegear]

Anything else? :smallconfused:

I'm heading down to GW today to get my Lysander. I'll let you know what I see.

Some of my favourites are Salamander, Heroes of the Space Marines (like there's any other kind of Space Marine), I'm told if you plan on getting Sons of Dorn in January (which I do), you should read HotSM.

The Inquisition War is a good read. Apparently it's been edited to Hell and back, so, it may not be as good as my copy is. From what I hear, a 'happy ending' has been put at the end. The ending of my copy is such a Downer.

There's always Eisenhorn and Ravenor, written by the same guy who wrote Gaunt's Ghosts. All available in omnibus form.
I heartily recommend the Grey Knights omnibus by Ben Counter. As well as the Soul Drinkers omnibus by the same.

The Ultramarines series is very good. As long as you can forget that you have to read about Ultramarines.

[SmartAlec]

Brothers of the Snake is my favourite Space Marine novel. Focuses on the adventures of a particular squad of Space Marines in a very interesting Chapter. Also unusual in that it gives the Dark Eldar some screen time, along with Chaos and Orks. Again, it's by Dan Abnett. Should fit the bill for you well enough.

[One Step Two]

This has been carried over from the Army building thread, cause it's a good discussion but off topic there.


...How does one contribute to the '100 Company Max', but not to the '1000 Chapter Max'?

I meant in the terms that the marine inside a dreadnought is a veteran himself of hundreds, if not thousands of battles, depending on the Chapter's preferences he can contribute to the maximum number of veterans in the 1st company, but they wouldn't hamper their recruiting methods simply because of that.


Oh, but it is. The 1st Company is called the 'Veteran Company' for a reason. Most veterans end up in the 1st Company sooner or later anyway. Except for those who refuse the 'honour', and stay as simple sergeants (or stay as Scouts, in two instances that I can think of), or make it to Company Captain.

I think it's because I recently re-read the Angels of Darkness by Ian Watson, and that the very real line of seperation between the Deathwing and the rest of the troops because of the Dark Angels Paranoia, that's making me confuse myself on the issue.

I think what I am trying to emphasis that a veteran is a veteran no matter where they are, whether the choose to remain with company they are in, it just happens that the 1st company is filled with them exclusively.

[Cheesegear]

I'm jealous (http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/7/2/40972_md-Imperial%20Fists,%20Space%20Marines,%20Terminator% 20Armor.JPG). Totally stole my idea.

Also, still continuing my sweet idea, it occurs to me to use Grey Knight Teleport Squads as my Fast Attack choices for my Veteran Company. Now that you can buy Nemesis weapons separately. :smallwink:
Also super fluffy given the Phalanx Assault the Imperial Fists are so fond of.

Tricky part will be adding storm bolters to regular marines. :smalleek:

Except that you can only take 1 squad of Fast Attack as allies. :smallfrown:

[YPU]

The problem would be getting ENOUGH storm bolters, having them hold em isn’t that hard.
The assault terminator box comes with the normal storm bolter arms right? That should give you half a squad already.

[Cheesegear]

The assault terminator box comes with the normal storm bolter arms right? That should give you half a squad already.

Yeah. But I need those Storm Bolters for the Terminators they come attached to. :smallwink:

Also, Vladamir Pugh will be built using a Techmarine base model.

[YPU]

Assault terminators; thunder hammers storm shields and lightning claws? But IIRC they do come with the standard frame with stormbolters on it.

[Cheesegear]

Assault terminators; thunder hammers storm shields and lightning claws?

Ooooh. No. They don't come with Power Fists and Storm Bolters. But, they come with a truckload more TH/SS and LCs than you need.

[YPU]

Oh, ok, then that’s what one of my friends did, buy assault termi’s buy normal termi’s build them all as assault with the extra bits, have a lot of stormbolters left over.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, ok, then that’s what one of my friends did, buy assault termi’s buy normal termi’s build them all as assault with the extra bits, have a lot of stormbolters left over.

Actually, that's not a bad idea. Consider the idea stolen.

[YPU]

Side note, I found storm bolters work best on bolt pistol arms when porting them. This would also potentially give you a bunch of terminator arms with bolt pistols, but that’s besides the point

[Cheesegear]

Planned Conversions for Imperial Fists 1st Company;

Vladamir Pugh, using the Techmarine (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620129&prodId=prod1060066) base-model (looks suitably plated for an Imperial Fist Chapter Master), making a bunch of weapon swaps and green stuff to basically achieve a WYSIWIG model for Azrael.
(I don't know how much I'll actually use him though...)

Venerable Dreadnought, using an Ironclad base model. And carting around a hammer. Similar (http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4493/dread1ub3.jpg). But, using the Ironclad base will make him much bulkier - as befits an Imperial Fists Dreadnought.
...I just need to find my other Furioso arm...

Another Venerable Dreadnought. Straight out of the box. Named Lexandro. :smallwink: According to sources (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M39), that would make the Lexandro 2800 years old...Well, maybe it's not the same one...Maybe... :smallwink:

Assault Marines (minus Jump Packs) and Nemesis Weapons. They come with Pistol arms, so, porting Storm Bolters to them will look fun. Green Stuff up some collar guards and I should be alright. Functioning as the Auric Knights. Adding the Imperial Fists shoulder guards.

Terminators come as per normal, with ForgeWorld shoulder pads.
Land Raiders will likewise come with ForgeWorld doors.

I'm still unsure how I'll go about making my (Dark Angels rules, remember) Company Veterans.
(Company Veterans in the 1st Company...!?)

[YPU]

The force weapons are right handed, so there will be no problem there unless your planning to give them crux terminatus as well, in that case there would need to be some cutting, but it can easily be done. (I looked at my GK models, so I’m sure) there are actually hardly any specific symbols on those arms, all shoulder pads have scrollwork on them, but that only befits a squad of knights IMHO.

I really like that plan, actually I am a starting to get a bit disappointed that there doesn’t seem to be enough CF fluff to something like this. (then again, I do get my chapter masters stats and model)

Well, actually I do need to convert some sternguard veterans for myself, current plan is to get a command squad box for the crux terminatus shoulder pads and the more uncommon armor types it includes. Then arm them all with bolters that have stormbolter ammo drums added and scopes on them. Oh and of course buy the imperial/crimson fist bitz pack for the other shoulder pad and backpacks

[Wraith]

There's no reason you can't do that. 1st Company Veterans have the right to use Terminator armour, but thy don't always have to wear it.

Given that Terminator armour is so rare, Veterans probably outnumber the suits available - all of the Vanguard and Sternguard models are supposedly in the 1st Company, after all, and I'd imagine any Chapter being hard pressed to find enough suits for all four units (including Standard- and Assault-Terminator Squads) plus HQ and character choices.

So ordinary Veterans, Sternguard, Vanguard, even the Honour Guard models (minus the Ultramarines' Omega heraldry) would look suitably sexy for the role. Throw in a few Chater Masters (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400007&prodId=prod1060070), Sword Brethren (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400013&prodId=prod1060215) and Blood Angels (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400015&prodId=prod1100022) or Dark Angels (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod1060236) Honour Guards just to mix it up and give each model a unique look and you're away.

(Personally, I think a mixture of Sword Brethren and Dark Angels Veterans would look good, as the robed look wil really make them look special, but I'm sure everyone has their own preference :smallsmile: )

[hamishspence]

I got the impression that Dark Angels Veterans, uniquely, weren't members of the 1st company- they were just very experienced and formidable members of the Battle Companies- is this right?

[Somebloke]

<retracted>

[YPU]

Actually both those posts on this page a fluff. Just very specific fluff on the way a marine chapter is organized and what models represent this best.

[Cheesegear]

Apologies. But the models thread has kind of disappeared.


Lots of good ideas

Hmm...I think I want the Chapter Masters, just to have them. :smallbiggrin:
I'm not too keen on the Sword Brethren. Since they're all metal, and I'm kind of worried about the amount of filing I'd have to do to make them not look like BTs. However, the BT Chapter Upgrade (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620134&prodId=prod1060205) box is all plastic. And, with the exception of the shoulder pads (which I wont use anyway), are almost all BT insignia free.
I have a BA Honour Guard box. It isn't that impressive. It's an Assault Squad box with a couple of metal extras. Death Company (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620136&prodId=prod1100028), however, are pretty good. Since the only actual BA insignias they have are their shoulder pads, which are optional.


What you can do with a Commander Box, a Command Squad Box, and a DA Veteran sprue (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KBj3Hj4Z4zk/SWBPtI20k5I/AAAAAAAAANA/mF2NZFI13oU/s1600-h/P1010002a.JPG). They look pretty close to what I want. Minus the banner. Since Company Veterans can't have banners.

The problem I face, however, is a rather substantial lack of Lightning Claws; given the 'sets' that I've indicated.
Although, I don't think I'll be needing them much.

One other thing; Since I'm using Dark Angels a First Company rules set, I don't have access to Sternguard or Vanguard. But, I have 'Company Veterans', which is sort of a middle ground between the two in that they can be outfitted with practically anything they want. So, I'm okay with not using Stern or Vanguard...Sort of.

Since half my army can Deep Strike anyway using Deathwing Phalanx ( :smallamused: ) Assault, those being Terminators (using Teleport Homers, no less - no scatter), can shoot and Assault on the turn they come down anyway. I laugh at not having Vanguard.
Sternguard though...Aww....:smallfrown:


I got the impression that Dark Angels Veterans, uniquely, weren't members of the 1st company- they were just very experienced and formidable members of the Battle Companies- is this right?

This is correct. But, I'm still putting Veterans in my first company. It makes sense.

[hamishspence]

are you playing an Imperial Fists army with the Dark Angels rules?

If so, then using 1st company markings on the veterans seems logical.

[Cheesegear]

are you playing an Imperial Fists army with the Dark Angels rules?

Yes. There's been many mentions of that. Both here and in the tactics thread. It's my new baby.

[hamishspence]

Interesting concept. are there any rules features of the Angels you want to try avoiding bringing into play- like The Ravenwing?

[Cheesegear]

Interesting concept. are there any rules features of the Angels you want to try avoiding bringing into play- like The Ravenwing?

Not especially. Here in the Fluff thread (the last one), there was talk - mostly by me - about the Sword of the High Marshals (of Black Templars fame). And, considering the materials it is made out of, there's no reason why there couldn't be more than one. And, if that was the case, there really shouldn't be a reason why the Imperial Fists themselves wouldn't have one of their own Relics. Right!? :smallconfused:
So, Azrael is pretty fair game to turn into Vladamir Pugh.

Belial is easily transferred into Lysander. Lysander's special rule makes all his marines Stubborn. Belial can have a TH/SS combo, just like Lysander. And, all Deathwing are Fearless to begin with. Lysander's Bolter Drill I couldn't really care less about. Since he will live with Assault Terminators who don't have Storm Bolters.
Belial is fair game.

Franz Grenzstein makes a perfect analogy to Ezikiel. At least, Ezikiel's psychic powers do. However, I might refluff the book into say, one of Rogal Dorn's hands? Or would that make the Chapter s* themselves if it was ever taken from the Phalanx? Into battle, no less.
However, Franz is dead. So...Yeah...There goes that idea. In any case, Terminator Librarian must be had. Not Ezikiel.

Asmodai no longer exists. But, if he did, Lo Chang would work just as well.

As for Ravenwing...I kind of need them for Deathwing Phalanx Assault* to work properly (teleport homers). Devastators are a must in any Imperial Fists army, etc.

So far, I've just got it fluffed that the 1st Company is taking Reserves from the 6-9th Companies. Which it is totally in it's right to do. Since that's what the 6-9th Companies are for.
And yes. Different coloured shoulder rims abound. I've thought of that. You wanna fight about it?

The 'teleporting love' of Imperial Fists, also makes it fluffy for me to have Grey Knight Auric Knight Teleport Squads. They're elite. Perhaps better than Vanguard. :smallwink:

*Phalanx Assault was one of Lysander's rules in 4th Ed. It's sort of the same...But not really. The name works though.

[hamishspence]

Seems like an interesting style- and is certainly consistant with the use of companies in the setting.

So- what's the army list?

EDIT: My guess is the discussion should probably go over to Hats for the Hat Throne III. Still- was an interesting variant on Imperial Fists.

Fluff- I was wondering if the "old lady sorceress" who gives Abaddon advice on seeking out the Blackstone Fortresses, in the BFG rulebook, is actually the C'tan known as The Deceiver, in disguise?

It does say that the Deceiver brought about the Gothic War, in order to ensure the Fortresses would stay out of the hands of the Eldar.

and:

"If you would become a god, you must use your head as well as your fists, arrogant fool!" is pretty feisty language to use to The Despoiler.

[Cheesegear]

So, what's the army list?

Lysander (as Belial)
[Other HQ unit]

One or two Dreadnoughts. Both Venerable (1st Company, damn straight). One of them will be named Lexandro*.
One or two squads Company Veterans

6 Squads of Phalanx Terminators.

Note: It was at this point (in the Tactics thread) that I couldn't think of anything else without being illegal. That's when I decided to steal from the other Companies which I realised I was within fluff rights to do so.

Grey Auric Knight Teleport Squad (Daemonhunters)
6th Company Attack Squadron
6th Company Attack Squadron or 8th Company Assault Marines

9th Company Devastators
Land Raider(/s)
Vindicator

Keep in mind my ideas might change after the novel Sons of Dorn comes out in January.

*Named after the Marine in Ian Watson's Space Marine and The Inquisition War, if he was still alive 'today', he'd be 2800 years old. Venerable Veteran indeed. Or, maybe it's a different Lexandro. Maybe.

[hamishspence]

Nice- I bet it will be fun to play.

[Cheesegear]

Originally posted by hamishspenc
"If you would become a god, you must use your head as well as your fists, arrogant fool!" is pretty feisty language to use to The Despoiler.

Cypher did it!

[hamishspence]

When was that?

It's been a while since I read the Eye of Terror Campaign period White Dwarfs- though I think can recall that him and Abaddon came to some sort of agreement before the war.

And I can't imagine Cypher disguised as a little old lady- whereas the C'tan are famous for their shapeshifting powers among other things.

[Dark Faun]

I can't exactly imagine someone as big as a space marine masquerading as a little old lady either.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, yeah...It was in one of the White Dwarves sometime.

Cypher rocked up to Abaddon, Abs yelled at him a bit. Cypher told him to f* off. Cypher then proceeded to blast Abbaddon's bodyguards and then buggered off.

Not only did Cypher insult Abaddon, he then attacked him (in self defence, but still). And killed a few Terminators and still got out alive.

[hamishspence]

Now this I can imagine.

(Its been a while since I read that particular White Dwarf though- and I don't have a copy myself- so I forgot the details of what when on between those two.)

I remember there being a scene around this period, with Cypher attacking The Deceiver- and losing his C'tan phase knife in the process- it was absorbed.

[loopy]

I remember there being a scene around this period, with Cypher attacking The Deceiver- and losing his C'tan phase knife in the process- it was absorbed.

Could have sworn it was a Callidus assassin and her phase weapon, not Cypher.

Who knows, it may have been both.

[Cheesegear]

Could have sworn it was a Callidus assassin and her phase weapon, not Cypher.

Was definitely Cypher.

His rules were such;
3rd Ed. C'Tan Phase Knife
4th Ed. No C'Tan Phase Knife.

The reasoning behind it was that story where he attacked the Deceiver for tricking him during Eye of Terror.
...Cypher insults and attacks Abaddon and the entire Inner Circle (by himself)...And lives.
Specifically, Cypher was shooting Terminators in the eyes. Their one weak point. And Cypher aims perfectly, 'cause he's that good.

...Cypher attacks The Deceiver (by himself)...And lives.

Am I sensing a pattern? Cypher is bada*.

[loopy]

I definitely* remember a story where a callidus assassin loses her c'tan blade the same way, attacking the deceiver while he was impersonating an Imperial Governor.

*Well... kinda sure, anyway...

[hamishspence]

Could have sworn it was a Callidus assassin and her phase weapon, not Cypher.

You may be thinking of the scene in Codex Necrons-

C'tan:

"How nice it is when one's children come home."
"And how wonderful it is when they bring gifts."

Given that it blasted her with light from its eyes, it might be The Nightbringer.

[loopy]

Yes, thats the one. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

I wondered if it was actually talking to the knife and "bringing gifts" was referring to the fact that it now gets to have have a Callidus for dinner.

[Cheesegear]

I wondered if it was actually talking to the knife and "bringing gifts" was referring to the fact that it now gets to have have a Callidus for dinner.

GRIMDARK levels detected. :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

That's 40K for you. :smallamused:

mortals in general seem to be a C'tan's favourite food.

It drinks energy rather than eating flesh, but its still an "eater of people"

[Wraith]

I got the impression that Dark Angels Veterans, uniquely, weren't members of the 1st company- they were just very experienced and formidable members of the Battle Companies- is this right?

Yes, you're right. Cheesegear isn't playing Dark Angels, though - he's playing "Imperial Fists" but with a Dark Angels-y ruleset. Fluffwise, it's all good. :smallbiggrin:

In a similar vein....


The problem I face, however, is a rather substantial lack of Lightning Claws; given the 'sets' that I've indicated.
Although, I don't think I'll be needing them much.

One other thing; Since I'm using Dark Angels a First Company rules set, I don't have access to Sternguard or Vanguard. But, I have 'Company Veterans', which is sort of a middle ground between the two in that they can be outfitted with practically anything they want. So, I'm okay with not using Stern or Vanguard...Sort of.

Since half my army can Deep Strike anyway using Deathwing Phalanx ( :smallamused:) Assault, those being Terminators (using Teleport Homers, no less - no scatter), can shoot and Assault on the turn they come down anyway. I laugh at not having Vanguard.
Sternguard though...Aww....

... What I originally meant was, just use the models if not the units.
Both Vanguard and Sternguard can be bought in blister packs, and their armour/decorations are suitably gaudy enough to make them look like ordinary veterans (especially when mixed in with other, gaudy models) so you can have all the lightning-claws you like, after the tiniest bit of filing and green-stuff to add Imperial Fist markings (or just paint them on, if you prefer) :smallsmile:

[Zorg]

Since half my army can Deep Strike anyway using Deathwing Phalanx ( :smallamused: ) Assault, those being Terminators (using Teleport Homers, no less - no scatter), can shoot and Assault on the turn they come down anyway.

Can't assault after deep strike, unless they have a special rule allowing them to (such as Vanguard vets).

[chiasaur11]

That's 40K for you. :smallamused:

mortals in general seem to be a C'tan's favourite food.

It drinks energy rather than eating flesh, but its still an "eater of people"

So, Blanks:

An unexpected side effect of the Pariah experiment?

I mean, they don't taste good, they defend against pariah attacks, and they free up more resources to fight Necrons that would be used against Chaos...

Or is it part of one of their insanely complicated plans?

[tyckspoon]

...Cypher attacks The Deceiver (by himself)...And lives.

Am I sensing a pattern? Cypher is bada*.

He's also supernaturally protected by ... something. Cypher is 40k's best example of a man who doesn't die even when you kill him; he comes back more often than Necrons.

[Ceridan]

Can't assault after deep strike, unless they have a special rule allowing them to (such as Vanguard vets).

Actually, you can in a planetstrike mission. Any unit of infantry, monstrous creatures that can't deep strike, now can. Any unit of infantry, monstrous creatures that normally can deep strike may now assault on the round that it does deep strike.

[Eldan]

So, Blanks:

An unexpected side effect of the Pariah experiment?

I mean, they don't taste good, they defend against pariah attacks, and they free up more resources to fight Necrons that would be used against Chaos...

Or is it part of one of their insanely complicated plans?

Could be another necron plan to take down the warp/chaos... after all, it's one of their main goals. I imagine that if blanks were to become common in the empire, chaos would be drastically weakened.
And in the end, separating the warp would really only benefit the necrons, as they are the only ones with good non-warp drives.

[Zincorium]

He's also supernaturally protected by ... something. Cypher is 40k's best example of a man who doesn't die even when you kill him; he comes back more often than Necrons.

...But both lose to Lucius the Eternal. Seriously, he's probably more of a threat to you after you've ganked him than before.

[EleventhHour]

...But both lose to Lucius the Eternal. Seriously, he's probably more of a threat to you after you've ganked him than before.

!

Cypher is going to shoot down Lucius. And then thier going to have a reincarnation war in his body.

:smalltongue:

[SmartAlec]

So, Blanks:

An unexpected side effect of the Pariah experiment?

I mean, they don't taste good, they defend against pariah attacks, and they free up more resources to fight Necrons that would be used against Chaos...

Or is it part of one of their insanely complicated plans?

I was under the impression that the Necrons had to harvest Blanks in order to make Pariahs.

[Selrahc]

Lucius's ability is actually a lot weaker than it might sound. There are a lot of ways to be killed on the battlefield that wouldn't leave the killer feeling any happiness at his death. Artillery bombardment, friendly fire, machine spirit killing him, bilogical attacks... Not to mention Necrons or Nids.

He'd better hope he keeps only dying in one on one duels with enemy champions.

[hamishspence]

I was under the impression that the Necrons had to harvest Blanks in order to make Pariahs.

Its not clear for certain if there is a difference between the "only mildly creepy- but neutralize psychic effects near them" Blanks, like Jurgen and Aelizabeth Bequin are,

and the "mind-spinningly terrifying" pariahs, like the Culexus Assassin, and the Necron Pariah.

I think the terms "Untouchable" and "Blank" refer to your basic untrained person with the gene,

and the Pariah Effect only manifests in those highly trained (like Culexus Assassins) or harvested by the Necrons and made over (the Necron Pariahs)

My guess is that they all project the psychic dampeningg field though.

[chiasaur11]

Lucius's ability is actually a lot weaker than it might sound. There are a lot of ways to be killed on the battlefield that wouldn't leave the killer feeling any happiness at his death. Artillery bombardment, friendly fire, machine spirit killing him, bilogical attacks... Not to mention Necrons or Nids.

He'd better hope he keeps only dying in one on one duels with enemy champions.

Not to mention the guy who did it going:

"Wait. Lucius the Eternal?" and blowing his own brains all over the wall.

[Winterwind]

Lucius's ability is actually a lot weaker than it might sound. There are a lot of ways to be killed on the battlefield that wouldn't leave the killer feeling any happiness at his death. Artillery bombardment, friendly fire, machine spirit killing him, bilogical attacks... Not to mention Necrons or Nids.

He'd better hope he keeps only dying in one on one duels with enemy champions.Unless his ability is general enough to pull off something like

*years after the successful campaign*
Officer: "Oh yes, sir, and it turns out that the nefarious Chaos champion Lucius the Eternal was killed at the battle at Latinus Mutilatus IV."
Great Lord-General: "My campaign brought an end to Lucius? Oh yes! Oh yes, who da man, baby? ...wait a second here, leutenant, for some reason my skin just started to itch..."

:smallbiggrin:


Not to mention the guy who did it going:

"Wait. Lucius the Eternal?" and blowing his own brains all over the wall.This, on the other hand, I had always been wondering about (why people don't seem to do something as simple as that, I mean). :smallconfused:

[Myshlaevsky]

Its not clear for certain if there is a difference between the "only mildly creepy- but neutralize psychic effects near them" Blanks, like Jurgen and Aelizabeth Bequin are,

and the "mind-spinningly terrifying" pariahs, like the Culexus Assassin, and the Necron Pariah.

I think the terms "Untouchable" and "Blank" refer to your basic untrained person with the gene,

and the Pariah Effect only manifests in those highly trained (like Culexus Assassins) or harvested by the Necrons and made over (the Necron Pariahs)

My guess is that they all project the psychic dampeningg field though.

I always thought that 'bluntness' ran on the other side of the scale of psychic ability. So, for instance, on some rare occasions you may find a child born with the kind of destructive soul-eating void equivalent to the kind of power a born alpha-plus psyker throws around. Most, however, fall at a considerably lower end of the spectrum. When outfitted with the proper technology I presume they can all become soul-vacuums (i.e. Culexus & Pariahs).

[Dark Faun]

So I have a question about an old character from the 3rd Ed Space Marines Codex. What happened to Xavier of the Salamanders? Did he die? Did he fall to chaos? Did he get put on a bus? Did he fight a Lord of Change who turned him into a woman, forcing "him" to leave the Salamanders to become a Sororitas? :smallconfused:

[Winterwind]

So I have a question about an old character from the 3rd Ed Space Marines Codex. What happened to Xavier of the Salamanders? Did he die? Did he fall to chaos? Did he get put on a bus? Did he fight a Lord of Change who turned him into a woman, forcing "him" to leave the Salamanders to become a Sororitas? :smallconfused:The Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page) has the following to say about him:

Chaplain Xavier was killed leading an attack on a Dark Eldar raiding force on the planet Drykeena. Mortally wounded by blades several times over, Xavier refused to fall and fought on until all his foes were lying dead around him. Only then did he allow himself to sink to the ground, where his wounds finally overcame him. His body was laid to rest on Nocturne and his name is still spoken with reverence by the Salamanders.

[Dark Faun]

Thanks! :smalltongue:

[Lycan 01]

Who are Cypher and Lucius the Eternal? :smallconfused:

[Lord Herman]

Cypher (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cypher) and Lucius the Eternal (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lucius_%28Emperor%27s_Children%29).

[EleventhHour]

Who are Cypher and Lucius the Eternal? :smallconfused:

Cypher is one of the Fallen Angels from the Dark Angels, and has been alive since the Horus Heresy. (Presumably.) He has a 'mysterious' sword that he doesn't use, along with a mastercrafted bolt pistol and a plasma pistol.

Oh, and he's also a guy who should get some special rules for his pistols. Seriously.

Lucius is a Chaos Champion-Lord sort of guy, who if you feel the slightest amount of pride/pleasure about killing him, you morph into him. Power armour and all. (Sense making? Not much!)

:: NINJAS

[Cristo Meyers]

Oh, and he's also a guy who should get some special rules for his pistols. Seriously.


It's Lion El' Johnson's sword, supposedly, and he used to get special rules for his pistols, being able to use them as close combat weapons or something like that.

[Winterwind]

Lucius the Eternal played a major role in drawing me to Chaos Space Marines specifically and into WH40k generally. Up until reading his story, I had been wondering whether to get into it, but that story was so ludicrously, hilariously over the top, evil and GRIMDARK, I couldn't help it any more. :smallbiggrin:

(I usually prefer playing on the 'good' side, but this setting was so dark gray vs. utterly pitch black, and the darkness so hilariously over the top, I found the evil side too amusing to not go for)


It's Lion El' Johnson's sword, supposedly, and he used to get special rules for his pistols, being able to use them as close combat weapons or something like that.What's unusual about using pistols as close combat weapons? :smallconfused:
Or do you mean using the pistols' profile in close combat?

[hamishspence]

Being able to fire them both is a special rule- normal characters can only fire 1 weapon.

In addition- once he lost his C'tan phase knife, the updated rules for him were:

"can use plasma pistol in close combat- effects replicate those of a power weapon"

[Cristo Meyers]

What's unusual about using pistols as close combat weapons? :smallconfused:
Or do you mean using the pistols' profile in close combat?

Way back when I'm relatively sure that yes, that's exactly what he could do.

Now, like hamishpence just said, he basically just gets a power weapon.

[Lycan 01]

Hm. Cypher looks like a cool character... Is he in many books? :smallconfused:

I kinda want to read a space marine and/or chaos marine novel now. Isn't "Heroes of the Space Marines" a collection of short space marine stories? That might be interesting...

If I read a Horus Heresy novel, would I have to read them in series to understand what is going on, or are they stand-alone books?

[Lord Herman]

Cypher appears in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels, both part of the Horus Heresy series. He's not a main character, though, and it's mostly about events before and during the Heresy. Not sure if there are any books about Cypher set in the 41st millennium.

As for the Horus Heresy series, I'd recommend reading them in order. Some of the books can be read on their own, but it does help to have read the earlier books to understand the bigger picture. For instance, Mechanicum is mostly just about the Adeptus Mechanicus, but it does help to know what Horus has been up to, and it also makes references to Battle for the Abyss.

[chiasaur11]

I kinda want to read a space marine and/or chaos marine novel now. Isn't "Heroes of the Space Marines" a collection of short space marine stories? That might be interesting...

You know what we don't hear enough about?

"Mild Embarrassments of the Space Marines"

Not the guys who fell to chaos, or had huge disasters they spend centuries trying to fix.

Just the guys who made really boneheaded mistakes they never live down in the mess hall.

[Eldan]

You mean like

"The Time Battle Brother Fabianus tripped over an Ork Corpse and knocked himself out on a Boulder",

"How Battle Brother Hivetyrantlover got his Nickname",

"Why the Captain will Never wear a Helment again"

and

"Why the Terminators arrived 2 days Late in the Battle on Epsilon Centauri"?

[hamishspence]

Way back when I'm relatively sure that yes, that's exactly what he could do.

Now, like hamishpence just said, he basically just gets a power weapon.

A replacement for the power weapon that he lost- so in effect, he hasn't really changed.

I'm not sure what his rules in 2nd ed were- but in 3rd, his gimmick was two-gun shooting.

[Cristo Meyers]

A replacement for the power weapon that he lost- so in effect, he hasn't really changed.

I'm not sure what his rules in 2nd ed were- but in 3rd, his gimmick was two-gun shooting.

Not quite: I'm pretty sure the C-Tan knife ignored all saves, not just armor.

I'm pretty sure his 2nd ed schtick was the whole "shooting when in melee" thing.

[Zorg]

2nd Ed everyone could use pistols in HtH. Cypher, if I'm remembering rightly, could use both together or some extra fancy rule with them.

[hamishspence]

Fire both together when not in hand to hand, was the only special thing he could do in the 3rd ed Chaos Codex.

the "phase knife" was far weaker than the "phase sword"- it was just a power weapon. In the 3rd ed Chaos Codex.

page 25- Cypher's equipment: master crafted bolt pistol, master crafted plasma pistol, C'tan Phase Knife (counts as a power weapon)

In the White Dwarf 3rd ed Cypher article (since Chaos Codex had gotten a new edition), since he lost the knife, he gained the plasma pistol's ability to be used in close combat as a power weapon.

[Ferreon]

the first 3rd ed codex with Cypher he had the ability to fire both pistols in the same shooting phase, giving him 4 shots if he stood still (on a side note i miss pistols being able to rapid fire). He also had a C'tan phase knife which was only a power weapon, and didn't ignore invulnerables.

in the 4th ed heroes & villains of the imperium article, he lost his phase knife by sticking it into a C'tan, but he gained the ability to treat one of his guns as a power weapon.

something of note in both editions was that IG could use him, and his retinue of fallen angels

edit:ninja'd dammit. first time ever

[GolemsVoice]

I'm not really big on Dark Angels fluff, but could he not be used by all "good" factions, and Chaos, or something? Representing that he'd just turn up, do his thing, and disappear, for reasons only known to him.

[chiasaur11]

I'm not really big on Dark Angels fluff, but could he not be used by all "good" factions, and Chaos, or something? Representing that he'd just turn up, do his thing, and disappear, for reasons only known to him.

You know, Cypher being used by an IG army and a Chaos army at the same time would be amusingly awkward.

You just know he'd be avoiding eye contact with himself the whole time.

[hamishspence]

in the 4th ed heroes & villains of the imperium article, he lost his phase knife by sticking it into a C'tan

Wasn't it Eye of Terror era- which was technically 3.5 ed?

(3.5 being after the Trial Assault Rules came out, but before the 4th ed book came out in September 2004)

[Lorn]

While on the subject of Cypher:

I know I cite it a lot, and I know it's not official fluff, nor will ever be, but RotT (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96321) has a LOT of Cypher in, generally being incredibly badass. A lot of pretty cool ideas concerning him as well. And, also importantly, blow-by-blow epic close combat with him featured using his pistols...

Though you have to sift through probably about 1000 pages of epic to find the beginning of the stuff about him.

One of my favourite 40K characters since I started looking into him.

[GolemsVoice]

You know, Cypher being used by an IG army and a Chaos army at the same time would be amusingly awkward.

You just know he'd be avoiding eye contact with himself the whole time.

Or maybe he'd find his long lost twin brother. And he they would love each other as only brothers can. And because he has been so GRIMDARK before, the entire universe would turn all good and shiny, astonished at how much kindness lies even in the bitterest of hearts. Wouldn't that be beautiful?

And now, imagine the same fight, but with loyalist Space Marines and Tau too, each fielding their own version of Cypher. You could have a Equilibrium-style gun kata fight. ANYTHING the man does is awesome.

[hamishspence]

Or, "Cypher" is a scam the Alpha Legion have been pulling on the Dark Angels- they are, after all, famous for having multiple guys pretend to be the same person. :smallbiggrin:

[Platinius]

That makes me wonder what specfic goal Alpharius and the Marines loyal to him have right now (41st Millenium)

[shadow_archmagi]

Hey guys, I have to ask:

From one friend, I had it explained

"Orks is born (or sumfin, dunno too much bout orky babby) knowin all about tek an any ork will jus pick up sum metal and make it shooty outta habit"


From another:

"Orks is like little humie chilren, only insteda all havin to believe in santa, dey all gotsa believe dat dey got REAL dakka, 'cuz no way wud orky stuff work, but when dey all tinks it does, den DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA. Dat's why humies don't use ork dakka; dey doesn't believe!"

So yeah? Is it the ork gestalt psychic field that makes their tech work, or the genetics?

[Ganurath]

It's the gestalt that provides the how, and genetics lets the orks know what the how is.

[Winterwind]

So yeah? Is it the ork gestalt psychic field that makes their tech work, or the genetics?Pretty much both.

Some Orks are born with the innate understanding of Ork technology and how to create it - it then works because the Orks using it think it should.

So I guess it amounts to Mek Boyz knowing how to create things that look like they should work to other Orks.

[Arcanoi]

Both. The Orkz are like the sentient equivalent of a disease developed for germ-warfare. Much as humans have certain genes, such as the Pariah and Navigator mutations, the Orkz have DOZENS of mutations, the foremost being Doks and Meks. An Ork Dok is born with a dual capacity for both insane curiosity and innate knowledge of the Orkish physiology. Meks are born much the same, but with a focus on machinery. Meanwhile, much of the technology created by Meks only works because they designed it in a way that they THINK it should work. Orkish guns that fall into human hands are often found to be entirely defective, and no human vehicle will get an extra 1" of move for being painted red.

Edit: Damnit -_-

[Kane]

Execution Hour by Gordon Rennie. Sequel- Shadow Point.

They are both good books in my view. (and while not focusing heavily on fleet combat, are among the books that focus more on space warfare- ship to ship, fighters as well.)

Glancing through this thread, found this. Searched GW site, but they don't seem to have this book (which sounds pretty interesting.) Anyway, any suggestions on where to find it?

[shadow_archmagi]

I still love this image.


It is raining. Drops of rain, landing on blood of an ork. A steel-booted foot lands near his head, and we see a Techpriest kneeling nearby. The Techpriest pries open the Ork's beloved weapon. Inside it is completely hollow, with four washers, a dead ferret, and a large copper spring.

The techpriest slowly turns and looks behind him, at the trail of dead guardsmen.

"It doesn't even have bullets... how does it fire without ammunition..."

[chiasaur11]

I still love this image.


It is raining. Drops of rain, landing on blood of an ork. A steel-booted foot lands near his head, and we see a Techpriest kneeling nearby. The Techpriest pries open the Ork's beloved weapon. Inside it is completely hollow, with four washers, a dead ferret, and a large copper spring.

The techpriest slowly turns and looks behind him, at the trail of dead guardsmen.

"It doesn't even have bullets... how does it fire without ammunition..."

The ferret, of course.

Now that it's dead, you might as well throw away the gun.

[One Step Two]

Now all I can think of is that Ork Technology works like the Flintsiones... That said, given the amount of grots and squigs they use, and how, that may not be an entirely in-accurate analogy...

[Lord Herman]

Now all I can think of is that Ork Technology works like the Flintsiones... That said, given the amount of grots and squigs they use, and how, that may not be an entirely in-accurate analogy...

Yabba-dabba-WAAAGH!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Platinius]

But if a human tried to escape with a carwagonride stolen from the orks with the obligatory car chase, it will drive faster because they believe it should be faster and as soon as they think you got away, it will cease to work altogether:smallbiggrin:

[GolemsVoice]

I believe that humans just couldn't believe HARD enough. I wonder, however, if for some reason the Orkz would believe that now a human got his hands on their car, and it would therefore go fasta, because he's so smart, it would actually go faster, no matter if the human driving it actually wants this or not? Can the Orkz influence their own vehicles if they are no longer within their own hands?

[Dorizzit]

Ork Waaagh energy can alter the laws of reality no matter who benefits from it. If enough Orks believe it will happen, it will happen.

[hamishspence]

Caiphas Cain and company seem to be able to manage Ork vehicles quite well.

They aren't quite so badly constructed that without an Ork at the controls believing in them, they collapse.

[EleventhHour]

Caiphas Cain and company seem to be able to manage Ork vehicles quite well.

They aren't quite so badly constructed that without an Ork at the controls believing in them, they collapse.

I think it's more or less ;

For guns, they have it spring-loaded. And stuffed with so much gunpowder, it has no choice but to shoot.

Vechicles, it's the most basic axle, some sheet metal strapped on, and then scavenged motors just filled with promethium. <- Wooords.

[Kane]

I was under the impression that most ork stuff was relatively close to working by itself; the farther it is from working, the more groupthink it needs to do so. That's why a chopper always works, (one ork), and their shooters tend to function like actual guns instead of hand-held bombs, but that something like a fighta-bomba is a bit farther from working (Anyone have that schematic for it? The one that points out that while it may have an engine and a fuel tank, they aren't actually connected to each other?).

With a choppa, it just needs to be sharper/they need to be stronger. Close enough. For buggies and stuff, I'd assume the groupthink keeps it from shaking itself apart at the speeds they like to drive at. But for a plane, it actually has to keep it in the air and functioning...

Also suggests why stompas can only be built by sufficiently large concentrations of orks.

[Winterwind]

I wonder, however, if for some reason the Orkz would believe that now a human got his hands on their car, and it would therefore go fasta, because he's so smart, it would actually go faster, no matter if the human driving it actually wants this or not?I'm pretty sure Orks don't think humans are smarter than them - quite to the contrary, after all humans have such silly concepts as "caring for other things than beating other things up", and stuff. :smallwink:

[MickJay]

I'm pretty sure Orks don't think humans are smarter than them - quite to the contrary, after all humans have such silly concepts as "caring for other things than beating other things up", and stuff. :smallwink:

It's not like many humies think that way...

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm pretty sure Orks don't think humans are smarter than them - quite to the contrary, after all humans have such silly concepts as "caring for other things than beating other things up", and stuff. :smallwink:

Plus, humans arn't actually smarter than mildly big orks. The biggest warbosses can and have been tactical matches for the finest imperial generals, so while maybe the average cannon fodder human outsmarts the average cannon fodder ork (maaaybe) I'd say Nobz are definately at least as cunnin as most humies.

[shadow_archmagi]

I realize this is the "fluff discussion" thread but given that my other options are "Start a THIRD warhammer thread" and "post in the models thread"...

Does anyone own Dawn of War 40k for the PC, and its numerous expansion packs? Me and my friends play via Hamachi on a regular basis and are always looking for new converts. At the moment, most of us have Soulstorm, although a few are still back in Dark Crusade.

[Lorn]

Does anyone own Dawn of War 40k for the PC, and its numerous expansion packs? Me and my friends play via Hamachi on a regular basis and are always looking for new converts. At the moment, most of us have Soulstorm, although a few are still back in Dark Crusade.
I have them up to Dark Crusade.

Way out of practice, though, and haven't got them installed after reformatting a month or two back.

If I do install etc, I'd be happy to give you a game or whatever :)

[shadow_archmagi]

I have them up to Dark Crusade.

Way out of practice, though, and haven't got them installed after reformatting a month or two back.

If I do install etc, I'd be happy to give you a game or whatever :)

'k

Anyone interested is free to join the Hamachi Server

Name: Dwan of Wor
Password: brabalut

[Talkkno]

Plus, humans arn't actually smarter than mildly big orks. The biggest warbosses can and have been tactical matches for the finest imperial generals, so while maybe the average cannon fodder human outsmarts the average cannon fodder ork (maaaybe) I'd say Nobz are definately at least as cunnin as most humies.

Actually this qoute of the 2nd edition Ork codex IRRC
"This lack of foresight and organisation have saved the Imperium from defeat m any times, although the damage inflicted by rampaging Orks can still be very great. Most Ork incursions can be dealt with as a matter of routine, and local forces usually manage to contain the invaders before too much harm is done." pg 50

This indicates that most Ork invasions evidently aren't nasty enough to require much if any Guard assistance and that local PDF forces can handle them.

[Tafkan]

Not to mention the guy who did it going:

"Wait. Lucius the Eternal?" and blowing his own brains all over the wall.
You know, it's pretty likely that his powers aren't a common enough knowledge for the victims to realise what's happening before it's too late. Especially because:

Guardsman/Marine: "You know, they say that when one kills Lucius-"
Commissar/Chaplain: "THESE STORIES ARE HERESY, STFU NOW!"

So, yeah. Most likely, people aren't even aware he can just take over their bodies and live on.

Edit: Didn't realise I was answering to something on page 2, proceed with your ork discussion. :smallsigh:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

You know, it's pretty likely that his powers aren't a common enough knowledge for the victims to realise what's happening before it's too late. Especially because:

Guardsman/Marine: "You know, they say that when one kills Lucius-"
Commissar/Chaplain: "THESE STORIES ARE HERESY, STFU NOW!"

So, yeah. Most likely, people aren't even aware he can just take over their bodies and live on.

Edit: Didn't realise I was answering to something on page 2, proceed with your ork discussion. :smallsigh:

Of course, the Commissar's line is more likely preceded by an oddly echoing "bang", and is spoken in a softly threatening way.

Guardsmen: Lucius? They say that when he is killed-"
*BLAM*
Commissar: *hoarse whisper* Those stories are heresy, Private Wilkins. STFU. What's that? Private Wilkins appears to have choked on his words. Literally, in this case. Ahah. Ahah. The Will of the Emperor.
Guardsmen 2: Uh, I don't think he choked on his words, I think he choked on your bull-"
*BLAM*
Commissar: My my, the Will of the Emperor seems to be quite catching these days. Ahah. Ahah.

[shadow_archmagi]

Of course, the Commissar's line is more likely preceded by an oddly echoing "bang", and is spoken in a softly threatening way.

Guardsmen: Lucius? They say that when he is killed-"
*BLAM*
Commissar: *hoarse whisper* Those stories are heresy, Private Wilkins. STFU. What's that? Private Wilkins appears to have choked on his words. Literally, in this case. Ahah. Ahah. The Will of the Emperor.
Guardsmen 2: Uh, I don't think he choked on his words, I think he choked on your bull-"
*BLAM*
Commissar: My my, the Will of the Emperor seems to be quite catching these days. Ahah. Ahah.

More of a "Pew" really, given lasguns.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I always equip my Commissar's with Bolters, or at least bolt pistols. They go Blam.

[Cheesegear]

More of a "Pew" really, given lasguns.

Commissars are supposed to have Bolt Pistols as standard. As it's another mark that they're not normal officers - they're better. What Ciaphas is doing with a laspistol, I have no idea.

[Talkkno]

Commissars are supposed to have Bolt Pistols as standard. As it's another mark that they're not normal officers - they're better. What Ciaphas is doing with a laspistol, I have no idea.

In For the Emperor, Ciaphas says hes been using a laspistol for so long that he feels that a heavier bolt pistol would throw his aim. Which considering he can one shot genestealers, he doesn't really need the extra firepower, which is what Jurgen is for.

[Cheesegear]

In For the Emperor, Ciaphas says hes been using a laspistol for so long that he feels that a heavier bolt pistol would throw his aim.

I must've missed that part. But, it is true that a Bolt weapon is 'a load of recoil and a*'.


Which considering he can one shot genestealers, he doesn't really need the extra firepower, which is what Jurgen is for.

Among other things.
A friend of mine wrote a discourse stating the Jurgen was the hero, rather than Ciaphas.

...I'd still be willing to pay for a book that features Jurgen as the main character. Driving Salamanders. Bringing meltadeath to heretics.

[Wraith]

A friend of mine wrote a discourse stating the Jurgen was the hero, rather than Ciaphas.

...I'd still be willing to pay for a book that features Jurgen as the main character. Driving Salamanders. Bringing meltadeath to heretics.

Sandy Mitchell admits this in the foreword to the collected version of the Cain stories. He is unswervingly true to the Imperial cause, unfazingly loyal to the Imperial Hierarchy and is utterly ignorant of anything that is not immediately within the Guardsman's Primer (at least, until some of their more wackier hijinks took place, of course...)

He is the shining model of the Imperial citizen, and a spectacular success of a Guardsman. He is everything that the propoganda says he ought to be, and were it possible that his adventures could be made public knowledge then *HE* would be the Hero of the Imperium (and Cain would likely be shot for cowardice and treason :smalltongue: )

[loopy]

I always equip my Commissar's with Bolters, or at least bolt pistols. They go Blam.

Thats the sound the Commissars make shortly after they join Catachan regiments.

Generally, its the last sound they make. :smallamused:

[GolemsVoice]

I'm pretty sure Orks don't think humans are smarter than them

That was just for the sake of argument. I'm willing to bet that the basic imperial conscript is not much smarter than an Ork, and filled with much more rising panic, instead of a general feelin' of choppiness that makes most of the Ork mindset. He is also much more likely to run AWAY from a fight, rather than TOWARDS it.

EDIT: A thought just crossed my mind: Say, if Catachans are badass (and they are), and Commissars are badass (and boy, THEY are), what would CATACHAN COMMISARSS be, besides an alliteration?

[Wraith]

An oxymoron.

Catachans HATE having Commissars. Those unfortunate enough to be assigned to a Catachan Regiment, are so likely to suffer an 'accident' shortly afterwards that they're bringing down the average Commssar's lifespan across the rest of the Imperium.

Of course.... any Commissar who SURVIVES in such an environment? So badass that Yarrick himself would turn white and cower in fear at the very mention of their name.... :smallwink:

[EleventhHour]

An oxymoron.

Catachans HATE having Commissars. Those unfortunate enough to be assigned to a Catachan Regiment, are so likely to suffer an 'accident' shortly afterwards that they're bringing down the average Commssar's lifespan across the rest of the Imperium.

Of course.... any Commissar who SURVIVES in such an environment? So badass that Yarrick himself would turn white and cower in fear at the very mention of their name.... :smallwink:

Step 1 to being a Commisar in a Catachan squad : Make them hate you. (Not hard. Stuck up Deathworlders.)
Step 2 : Survive thier first "accident"
Step 3 : Execute the one who tried it.
Step 4 : When the others go to kill you, or move in a threatening manner execute them.
Step 5 : Report to Company HQ, and fill out the papers for one deserter, and a squad caught in an enemy "Skirmish Action."
Step 6 : Request redeployment to another Regiment (Preferably nonCatachan, since the last assignment by HQ put you in a EZ situation, and being a (minor) CO, you would like to avoid the experince again.)

[GolemsVoice]

Proves once again just how hardcore Catachans are. A shame that I prefer the regular guardsmen models far more. By having said this I'm also likely to be ambushed next time I enter the woods.
But it IS nice to have a regiment of guardsmen that are actually the ones to attack and make the enemy fear them, instead of just relying on the "big guns, big bunkers, big numbers" strategy that the Guard normally runs.

[loopy]

EDIT: A thought just crossed my mind: Say, if Catachans are badass (and they are), and Commissars are badass (and boy, THEY are), what would CATACHAN COMMISARSS be, besides an alliteration?

Well, as far as I can deduce, Catachan badassery is all to do with the deathworld raising, what with a ridiculously low percentage of kids surviving to adulthood and all.

Seeing as Commissars are all Schola Progenium grads, they obviously wouldn't have been brought up in that Death World environment. Even if, by some fluke of fate, a young Catachan native was delivered to the Schola, he wouldn't have the Catachan badassery, only the Commissar variety.

Speaking of which, do we know any Space Marine chapters who recruit from Catachan? Seems like a bit of a missed opportunity for them, if not.


Proves once again just how hardcore Catachans are. A shame that I prefer the regular guardsmen models far more. By having said this I'm also likely to be ambushed next time I enter the woods.

Never fear, just have one of your friendly neighbourhood Ghosts walk you through the woods. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

An oxymoron.

Catachans HATE having Commissars. Those unfortunate enough to be assigned to a Catachan Regiment, are so likely to suffer an 'accident' shortly afterwards that they're bringing down the average Commssar's lifespan across the rest of the Imperium.

Of course.... any Commissar who SURVIVES in such an environment? So badass that Yarrick himself would turn white and cower in fear at the very mention of their name.... :smallwink:

The 40K compilation of short stories, Into The Maelstrom, had a short story featuring Catachans and their commissar.

In this short story, the lieutenant has bribed passage offworld from the warzone, for himself and his unit, with captured alien weapons, when the Commissar catches him at it, gives him a bawling out, but before they kill each other, the aliens attack their camp, the merchant who was going to take them offworld gets killed,

and the Catachan lieutenant decides not to bother trying anymore, and the two go out there and kick ass.

The commissar appears again in a minor appearance in a later short story. Featuring Attillans, this time.

[Platinius]

I understand Catachan is a world primary filled with lush jungle, but what exactly makes it so much more deadly compared to our jungles? (and I might remind you that our jungles are deadly to the untrained and/or unexperienced)

[Eldan]

Horrible monsters, deadly diseases, parasites and weather that kills you. So, just like our jungles.

[YPU]

Guard codex page 4. just noticed, shows a Cadian asualt in the background. In the fore a catachan heavy bolter and lasguns, with in their midst a commissar holding a book in his powerfist and a blade in the other.

EDIT: Don’t forget the mind controlling plants.

[chiasaur11]

I understand Catachan is a world primary filled with lush jungle, but what exactly makes it so much more deadly compared to our jungles? (and I might remind you that our jungles are deadly to the untrained and/or unexperienced)

Our jungles don't have toads with A-Bomb level detonations, plants that take over people's minds, or bugs the size of freight trains.

[YPU]

Oh and teleporting crocodiles.

Its our jungle, only GRIMDARK.

[Eldan]

No. Our nasty critters are more subtle. But still nasty and quite deadly.

[YPU]

I am sure there are enough subtle ways to die on deathworlds. Its only more grimdark to live in the face of giant criters death dealing undergrowth and warp bound pachyderms to be done in by some bug or so.

[Talkkno]

Sandy Mitchell admits this in the foreword to the collected version of the Cain stories. He is unswervingly true to the Imperial cause, unfazingly loyal to the Imperial Hierarchy and is utterly ignorant of anything that is not immediately within the Guardsman's Primer (at least, until some of their more wackier hijinks took place, of course...)

He is the shining model of the Imperial citizen, and a spectacular success of a Guardsman. He is everything that the propoganda says he ought to be, and were it possible that his adventures could be made public knowledge then *HE* would be the Hero of the Imperium (and Cain would likely be shot for cowardice and treason :smalltongue: )

Actually, he does have one fault, as reveled in Death and Glory he does collect porno slates. As reveled in Rebel Winter, it is a minor offense enough a commissar will confesicate it.
Then use it for his own purposes...:smallbiggrin:

Hell, Creatures Anemeatha Dark hersey sourebook, it features a deathworld where there are giant worms capable of taking a Baneblade, winds that sheer you from skin to bone in a few seconds. I think there was also a short story in a compliation somewhere where there was this dinosaur planet that fought Titans on even ground. I'm sure that Catchen's environment could single handily take on a Tyranid invasion and win.

[chiasaur11]

Actually, he does have one fault, as reveled in Death and Glory he does collect porno slates. As reveled in Rebel Winter, it is a minor offense enough a commissar will confesicate it.
Then use it for his own purposes...:smallbiggrin:

Hell, Creatures Anemeatha Dark hersey sourebook, it features a deathworld where there are giant worms capable of taking a Baneblade, winds that sheer you from skin to bone in a few seconds. I think there was also a short story in a compliation somewhere where there was this dinosaur planet that fought Titans on even ground. I'm sure that Catchen's environment could single handily take on a Tyranid invasion and win.

It may have already.

Some Imperial scientists noted tyranid-like heritage in some Catachan species.

In other words:

Tyranids invaded the planet. This affected nothing.

[Platinius]

Our jungles don't have toads with A-Bomb level detonations, plants that take over people's minds, or bugs the size of freight trains.

I'd say bugs the size of a freight train are the least problem here, nothing a good dose of pepper can't slove, if they are dangerous at all and are more like elephants (who are only hostile towards you if you piss them off in some way). A-bomb toads doesn't make much sense, if they really did that they would exterminate themselves in no time (it is not an effectif survival strategy) Plants that take over peoples mind's is not an accurate description of said plant, to clarify it's level of danger more intel is necessary, what conditions must be met so that it can take someone over, what are the limitaions, has the plant an absolut oustanding exteriour to attract prey (if it's a carnivoure, though it likley is), is it rare or very common. (I could continue like this for a long time) I need more fluff, more details, these answers only make me ask more questions. (but perhaps that's the point of warhammer 40k fluff, just enough to make you intrested, but not enough to satiate your thirst)

Edit: Perhaps the Imperium should try to lure the Hivefleets to Catchan, might actauly solve that issu:smallbiggrin:. There are more planets with tyranids in it's wildlife, Fenris (also deathworld and home of the SPace Wolves) has sea-dragons tat are actually tyranids that have adapted to it's environment. Point is the natives hunt them (not the other way around) to build their ships with the bones, and to make the hull and their armour out of its skin.

[GolemsVoice]

There's always a bigger fish. Or, in this case, a giant, swarm-eating deathtrap of a planet. Welcome to the GRIMDARK, how would you like your hopelesness served, sir?


I'd say bugs the size of a freight train are the least problem here, nothing a good dose of pepper can't slove,...

YOu would be right, if Warhammer 40K ran on reason. Alas, it doesn't. It runs on death, pain, suffering, and misery, collectively known as GRIMDARK. EVERYTHING IS DEADLY. And terribly over-the-top, of course. Making sense is very low on the list of priorities, and we wouldn't want it any other way.

[chiasaur11]

I'd say bugs the size of a freight train are the least problem here, nothing a good dose of pepper can't slove, if they are dangerous at all more like elephants (who are only hostile towards you if you piss them off in some way). A-bomb toads doesn't make much sense, if they really did that they would exterminate themselves in no time (it is not an effectif survival strategy) Plants that take over peoples mind's is not an accurate description of said plant, to clarify it's level of danger more intel is necessary, what conditions must be met so that it can take someone over, what are the limitaions, has the plant an absolut oustanding exteriour to attract prey (if it's a carnivoure, though it likley is), is it rare or very common. (I could continue like this for a long time) I need more fluff, more details, these answers only make me ask more questions. (but perhaps that's the point of warhammer 40k fluff, just enough to make you intrested, but not enough to satiate your thirst)

The big bug?

It hates everybody.

The plant? It shoots out flying, inconspicuous leaves that take over brains by attaching to people's necks. Think "It Conquered the World."

The barking toad? It doesn't make sense, but it can kill SPESS MARINES from a kilometer away. (And itself, but...)

[Platinius]

I must admit, I LIKE Catchan, a deathtrap even for Space Marines, now that's publicity.

Though, wouldn't wearing a large scarf ( think male middle-eastern style) protect against the leaves?

[Wraith]

A-bomb toads doesn't make much sense, if they really did that they would exterminate themselves in no time (it is not an effectif survival strategy)

You forget, this is the GRIMDARK version of evolution.

A predator attacks the Barking Toad, and everything in a 1km radius gets irradiated. Therefore the predator's species as a whole learns not to bother the Barking Toad, and so the Toad' species survives (Or, more likely, the Predator Species is wiped out entirely leaving only Toads behind....)

Im don't think anyone has ever used the phrase "Passive Genocide" before, but if it's ever going to apply then it will in the 40k universe.

[Talkkno]

I must admit, I LIKE Catchan, a deathtrap even for Space Marines, now that's publicity.


For a Catchan to even qualify to fight for the Imperial Guard, they have to survive several days in the jungle against the equivalent of a Lictor with no weapons.

[Eldan]

It's close to certain poisoned or stinking bugs: you eat them, you get sick. This is the Grimdark version.

[Platinius]

I'd say in the hands of a Catchan, everything becomes a weapon, but I think you meant big guns. Perhaps it's not the question if the Catchan survives but the 'equivalent of a lictor':smallbiggrin:

Perhaps we should open a thread called Catchan Facts:biggrin:

[Cheesegear]

Perhaps we should open a thread called Catchan Facts :biggrin:

Sly Marbo vs. Cypher. :smallbiggrin:

[chiasaur11]

Sly Marbo vs. Cypher. :smallbiggrin:

Whoever wins, the fundamental structure of reality itself loses.

[Cheesegear]

Whoever wins, the fundamental structure of reality itself loses.

I wasn't aware there could even be a winner. :smallconfused:
As soon as the two enter the same room/area, look at each other with half a gleam, put their hands on their weapons...

Aw (Awsome) particles begin to collide at such rapid velocity and frequency that the structure of reality begins to break down as things start to get fuzzy. Reality, simply just...Blacks out to escape the magnitudes of awesome that it's Laws just can't handle.

Reality then wakes up. Cypher and Sly are sitting back in chairs drinking beers and laughing. Marbo is stroking a Barking Toad on his lap. Cypher begins to tell his story "Did I ever tell you about the time I punched Abbadon in the face..."

There's a Giant Ape there too. But, how it got there...Well, reality never found out...Also, what's with the turtle? And why are the penguins flying?

[chiasaur11]

I wasn't aware there could even be a winner. :smallconfused:
As soon as the two enter the same room/area, look at each other with half a gleam, put their hands on their weapons...

Aw (Awsome) particles begin to collide at such rapid velocity and frequency that the structure of reality begins to break down as things start to get fuzzy. Reality, simply just...Blacks out to escape the magnitudes of awesome that it's Laws just can't handle.

Reality then wakes up. Cypher and Sly are sitting back in chairs drinking beers and laughing. Marbo is stroking a Barking Toad on his lap. Cypher begins to tell his story "Did I ever tell you about the time I punched Abbadon in the face..."

There's a Giant Ape there too. But, how it got there...Well, reality never found out...Also, what's with the turtle? And why are the penguins flying?

The turtle is carrying four elephants and a disc. It is moving along at its normal pace.

The penguins have jetpacks powered by GRIMDARK.

[YPU]

Talking about penguins, is there any fluff on arctic based imperial regiments besides valhalan? I have tried something different on a few models I had lying around, I greenstuff sculpted fur trimming around the edges of the jacket and sleeves, a thick fur trim on the neck as well, added a scarf and boot trimming to a few. Undercoated it white and cleaned it up with white foundation. Then used washes and ink’s to paint almost the entire model, makes op for the time spend sculpting. So now I am wondering if there are any arctic guards in the fluff.

Oh and if I am going to make it a whole army I will make the penal legion out of catachan models, still adding fur trims I imagine wearing only a fur trimmed jacket would make them look pretty badass. (tough perhaps a bit like a J-rpg character of renown)

[Cheesegear]

I imagine wearing only a fur trimmed jacket would make them look pretty badass.

Yeah. Because having no pants is pretty sweet. :smallwink:

[YPU]

Penal legion: your going to the arctic boy, no pants allowed. That what you get for cursing the emperor.

[Cheesegear]

and were it possible that his [Jurgen's] adventures could be made public knowledge then *HE* would be the Hero of the Imperium (and Cain would likely be shot for cowardice and treason :smalltongue: )

It's like Lord of the Rings; Who is the Hero; Frodo or Sam?

Whether by accident (special gift) or design ("Eat Melta!") Jurgen saves Cain at least two or three times in every novel - and in at least a few short stories. And never gets anything in return. Just doing his duty...

[Arcanoi]

He gets all the luxuries awarded to a HERO OF THE IMPERIUM's aide-de-campe.

[GolemsVoice]

Like not being dead, for virtue of being a valuable sidekick. That counts in Warhammer 40K, not being dead I mean.

[Cheesegear]

That counts in Warhammer 40K, not being dead I mean.

Not always. They don't call it Grimdark for nothing y'know? :smallwink:

[Platinius]

Not beind dead, still earning your soul and sanity, now that's an accomplishment in Grimdark

[GolemsVoice]

Alright, if we consider that, it's probably better to be dead, but still possesing your soul. After all, only the dead have seen the end of GRIMDARK. Those whose souls did not suffer some ugly fate.

[Platinius]

Absolutly, it's seriously better (as a weak psyker) to be sacrificed to the Emperor than have your soul eaten by demons or to die (if you are a blunt) in His name fighting orks rather than demons, heretics, sorcerors etc where the chance is high that you lose your soul.

[EleventhHour]

I'd like to be a blunt/blank... and they spend all my time giving psykers hugs.

:smallamuse

@V- I can't remember what Ravenor's guy was called, so I was covering both. :smalltongue:

[Platinius]

I don't think blunt and blank are the same.

blunt-psyker term for someone with no powers
blank- someone without a soul

[Arcanoi]

I'll bet blanks are the evolution of Gingers after 38000 years.

[Platinius]

I really don't see a link between gingers and blanks

[EleventhHour]

I really don't see a link between gingers and blanks

... :smallsigh:

People make ginger jokes / don't like gingers.

People would make blank jokes / not like blanks.

[Platinius]

I happen to like gingers, I didn't even know there were jokes about gingers (perhaps that's a side effect of comming from the very heart of western europe, unlike most people in this forum who come from the US, just a minor culturual difference)

Are you saying gingers have no souls?:smalltongue:

[Winterwind]

Jokes and discrimination. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hair#Gingerism_.28prejudice.2Fdiscrimination_t owards_redheads.29)

My guess is DCGFTW made a South Park reference; that's what my first association was, anyway (and I thought it was funny). :smallcool:

[Selrahc]

I happen to like gingers, I didn't even know there were jokes about gingers (perhaps that's a side effect of comming from the very heart of western europe, unlike most people in this forum who come from the US, just a minor culturual difference)

Are you saying gingers have no souls?:smalltongue:

I think it's actually more of a UK thing than an American one.

[Cheesegear]

Being a Blank would somewhat suck. As it's stated that even regular people can 'sort of' sense the fact. And, will unconsciously steer away from Blanks. And, people just...Don't like them. For no reason.

For this, it's the reason why Blanks tend to descend into the lower ranks of society and never really amount to anything unless someone important can actually recognise them for what they are.

It's also postulated that the Pariah gene is more common than the Inquisition realises. However, due to the above 'rule' about how most blanks are treated, most of them never even get found or amount to anything worth noticing - so they aren't noticed.

Being a 'blunt'...Well, that's psyker slang for a 'normal person'. Depending on what planet you're born on, that might not be so bad.

[Platinius]

Even Bequin from the Eisenhorn series who is supposed to be very beautiful was shunned by normal people prior to meeting the main character

[Cheesegear]

Even Bequin from the Eisenhorn series who is supposed to be very beautiful was shunned by normal people prior to meeting the main character

To say nothing of Jurgen. :smallwink:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

To say nothing of Jurgen. :smallwink:

To be fair, that might have something to do with the smell...

[Somebloke]

To be fair, that might have something to do with the smell...

Did he really smell? Or did people just subconciously invent the smell to cover up the strange sense of disgust they felt?

[Wraith]

No, he actually does smell really bad.

Any Valhallan, having grown up on an Ice World, will sweat uncomfortably in anything above 2 degress centigrade. Jurgan was first encountered on a Desert World, and is noted as being exceptional even among his companions.

Even Commissar Cain mentions it repeatedly - saying how he knew when his aide was about to enter the room because his body odour preceeded his arrival - and Cain likes Jurgan so that's probably something of a polite description compared to what others say. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Other possible reasons for the Smell (besides sweat) is Jurgen's tendency to keep food in his pockets long past the time it should be chucked away, his interesting collection of skin diseases, etc.

Makes me think a little of Discworld's Foul Ole Ron, and the fact that his Smell is actually more cultured than he is.

[Cheesegear]

No, he actually does smell really bad.

Not explicitally proven.


Any Valhallan, having grown up on an Ice World, will sweat uncomfortably in anything above 2 degress centigrade.

Also not exactly true. Since no other Valhallan stinks. Even in the air con that Valhallans love, Jurgen still stinks. Even though cold kills smell. There is no reason that Jurgen should stink in 'Valhallan' level air con. Yet he does.


Even Commissar Cain mentions it repeatedly - saying how he knew when his aide was about to enter the room because his body odour preceeded his arrival

You mean his 'blank aura' preceeded his arrival? :smallwink:

Keep in mind that Cain is also a 'normal'. And it is in fact mentioned that Jurgen does, in fact use soap. It just doesn't appear to do any good. Which doesn't make any sense.
Cain reacts to Jurgan just as every other non-psyker does when near a Blank...With disgust. Except, Cain knows Jurgen for what he is. And, not only that, actually considers him useful. That doesn't make Jurgen any less of a blank, and therefore, any less stinky.

Since, as it is frequently inferred, Jurgen's stench and his 'blank aura' appear to be one and the same thing.

Paraphrased (from at least two instances in every novel);
And that's when the daemon/psyker/monstrosity had me dead to rights. One more second I and was dead...And then I smelled Jurgen's familiar stench. And all was right again...And then I proceeded to kick some a*.

Just as Bequin's aura of distrust is her 'blank aura'. Although that's not entirely fair, since Eisenhorn loves Bequin and men find it hard to talk to women they love. :smallwink:
Probably compounded by the fact the Gregor is a psyker...

But, nobody else loves Bequin, or is a psyker. And they don't exactly speak to her either.


Other possible reasons for the Smell (besides sweat) is Jurgen's tendency to keep food in his pockets long past the time it should be chucked away, his interesting collection of skin diseases, etc.

Hmm...Maybe.

[BRC]

No, he actually does smell really bad.

Any Valhallan, having grown up on an Ice World, will sweat uncomfortably in anything above 2 degress centigrade. Jurgan was first encountered on a Desert World, and is noted as being exceptional even among his companions.

Even Commissar Cain mentions it repeatedly - saying how he knew when his aide was about to enter the room because his body odour preceeded his arrival - and Cain likes Jurgan so that's probably something of a polite description compared to what others say. :smalltongue:

I found Jurgen's behavior made sense in consideration of his blankness. Most Psykers tend to be somewhat crazy and eccentric. Jurgen, with his meticulous attention to detail, protocol, and efficiency (even his driving style is focused on getting the Commisar where he needs to go as quickly as possible) has an almost opposite personality type.

Also, I think Jurgen's lack of hygiene is an indirect result of his being a blank. People feel uncomfortable around Blanks, subconsciously anyway (probably because all humans are somewhat warp-sensitive. They don't pick up the signals from Blanks that they do from other normal humans). When he was young, Jurgen probably figured out that people weren't going to like him, so he just didn't bother looking nice.

Also, a question I have concerning the IG. I've read two main IG series, Cain and Gaunt.

In Cain, the Valhallens use Chimeras and sentinels to support their infantry. They have a dedicated support company, and their commanders stay away from the frontlines, coordinating a battle from a bunker or a command chimera.
In the Gaunt books, the Tanith appear to be entierly infantry, with the occasional sniper, a couple flamers, and one heavy weapons gunner. They have no vehicles to speak of, and their commanders all fight on the frontlines (Which seems stupid to me, considering how reliant the regiment is on it's strong leadership, sticking said leaders where a stray lasgun round could decapitate them seems odd).

Now I know they're different types of regiment from different periods, the Valhallans are standard frontline infantry, while the Tanith are dedicated recon/infiltration specialists (Though they're almost never used in this way) with a special focus on initiative at the squad level, but this severe disconnect seems odd to me.

Also, I personally thing the Valhallan 597th would beat the Tanith, mainly because they use things like vehicles and don't stick their crucial leadership on the frontlines.

[SmartAlec]

A better example of a Blank in action in a team might be Ravenor's blank, Frauka. For virtually the whole of the first novel, we never see his perspective, and everyone dislikes him. The men just don't talk to him. The women think he's a slimy creep. It's not until the later novels that you find he's actually a fairly decent human being, and if you re-read his early appearances and take the things he says at face value, he doesn't seem all that creepy. It's just that everyone takes the things he says and does the wrong way, and it's their perspective we see.

I'd imagine Bequin is a similar case, but we never see anyone's perspective other than Eisenhorn's in his trilogy. Perhaps Frauka was written because Abnett was aware he hadn't made Bequin a particularly convincing blank.

[Cheesegear]

Most Psykers tend to be somewhat crazy and eccentric.

Because they are crazy.


Also, I think Jurgen's lack of hygiene is an indirect result of his being a blank. People feel uncomfortable around Blanks, subconsciously anyway (probably because all humans are somewhat warp-sensitive. They don't pick up the signals from Blanks that they do from other normal humans).

See my above post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7151987&postcount=179). And SmartAlecs'. I'd forgotten about Frauka.


In the Gaunt books, the Tanith appear to be entierly infantry, with the occasional sniper, a couple flamers, and one heavy weapons gunner. They have no vehicles to speak of, and their commanders all fight on the frontlines (Which seems stupid to me, considering how reliant the regiment is on it's strong leadership, sticking said leaders where a stray lasgun round could decapitate them seems odd).

You'll note that the two books are written by entirely different people. Dan Abnett has a particular writing style where 'everything in the Universe sucks'. He's not as dark as Ian Watson, but, still pretty dark. The style and...general helplessness of the Tanith reflect what Dan usually writes like.
Mr. Abnett also likes his 'boss-type' characters to be awesome. That's why they're in the front. Tanith is also hardly considered a standard regiment.
As recon specialists, it wouldn't do much good to have a large, loud grinding Chimera behind you.

Sandy Mitchell writes about a traditional Guard regiment. Commanders in the back. Grunts in the front.

Different authors write about different things.


Also, I personally thing the Valhallan 597th would beat the Tanith, mainly because they use things like vehicles and don't stick their crucial leadership on the frontlines.

And massively superior numbers, and superior firepower (sentinels, tanks and did I mention superior numbers?), has nothing to do with it?

But, Tanith would win anyway. Because they're the underdogs. And the Tanith always win when they probably shouldn't.

[BRC]

On the note of blunts being uncharismatic and making people uncomfortable, I believe an argument could be made for Psykers having an opposite effect.
In the gaunt books, you constantly run into psyker chaos warlords described as being incredibly charismatic. Many Inquisitors are both psykers and great leaders. Soric from the Gaunt books was incrediably popular among the regiment, and he hadn't even developed his powers. I think that just as people are subconsciously repelled by, and dislike Blanks, they subconsciously like psykers.
Now, Imperial citizens are culturally biased against Psykers, hence the distrust. People naturally liking Psykers also explains how Chaos Cults manage to spring up in the Imperium, which tells people from birth that the only proper response to anything that smells like Chaos is lots and lots of Fire. The naturally charismatic psykers draw people in before they fully know what they are getting involved with.

Edit : I factored the superior firepower into "Things mentioned above". Though I forgot about the numbers (Bureaucratic slowness keeps the numbers up vs Loses a massive number every book and only gets more troops when they combine with another regiment/absorb verunhive refugees). Thanks for the reminder.

[Cheesegear]

People naturally liking Psykers also explains how Chaos Cults manage to spring up in the Imperium, which tells people from birth that the only proper response to anything that smells like Chaos is lots and lots of Fire. The naturally charismatic psykers draw people in before they fully know what they are getting involved with.

...Wrong. Astropaths, Navigators, and even Sanctioned psykers (the allowed ones) scare the crap out of everyone. Nobody likes psykers. Nobody.

Chaos cults spring up because Chaos can lie. And if that fails. Mind Rape. And, most cults don't look like cults until it's too late.
"Oh, hey...You want to come to a party? There'll be booze and girls..."
Yeah...It's innocent to start with. But, we all know that's the recruitment slogan for a Slaanehi cult. They just don't call it a Slaaneshi cult.

Something as obvious as "Oh hai! We're Chaos. We herd you mite leik us!" just doesn't happen. Nothing 'smells like Chaos' until it's too late. That's why it's so dangerous.

Inquisitorial psykers are respected because they're Inquisitors. Not because they...Psyk? Non-psi Inquisitors are respected too y'know. :smallwink:

[Wraith]

Now I know they're different types of regiment from different periods, the Valhallans are standard frontline infantry, while the Tanith are dedicated recon/infiltration specialists (Though they're almost never used in this way) with a special focus on initiative at the squad level, but this severe disconnect seems odd to me.

Also, I personally thing the Valhallan 597th would beat the Tanith, mainly because they use things like vehicles and don't stick their crucial leadership on the frontlines.

Also remember that the Valhallen 597th are at full strength, with constant recruitment and replenishment, whereas the first thing that happened to the Tanith regiments was that a full half of their 6,000 men were killed by a Chaos attack that also destroyed the homeworld, and they had to be combined into a single lonely Regiment.
They don't get replenishments and reinforcements in manpower so they're only ever shrinking in size, which probably includes vehicle and the like.

Eventually (according to Departmento Munitorium practise if not the author's artistic lisence) the Tanith 1st will become too small to be useful and will probably be merged with another broken-down regiment like the original Valhallan 301st and the 296th before them - assuming that they aren't wiped out entirely first, of course.

[BRC]

...Wrong. Astropaths, Navigators, even Sanctioned psykers scare the crap out of everyone.

Chaos cults spring up because Chaos can lie. And if that fails. Mind Rape.

Inquisitorial psykers are respected because they're Inquisitors. How does that explain how non-psi Inquisitors are respected?
Just because Psyker inquisitors are great leaders, doesn't mean that non-psyker inquisitors cannot be great leaders. In fact, Psyker Inquisitors are not Great leaders because their psykers. They're Inquisitors because they're great leaders.
To use DnD terms, lets say that Psykers get a +2 bonus to Charisma. So a Psyker has a charisma of 18. Does this mean a normal person can't have a charisma of 18? No. Normal people are less likely to have a score that high, but it's possible, and considering the number of normals vs psykers, there will be alot more normal people with 18 charisma than psykers.
Here, so as to avoid the "Different Author's" Scenario, I'll take two inquisitorial groups from the Sandy Mitchell.

In the Cain books you have Amberly (A normal) as an Inquisitor, she's charismatic, a skilled leader, and an expert investigator. Her people respect her, and are all very loyal. A sanctioned Psyker provides any Psychic support that is needed.
In Scourge the Heretic, you have Whatshisname, the Psyker inquisitor. Once again, his people respect and are loyal to him, to the extent that he trusts them to work independently for long periods of time with the full authority of the Inquisition behind them.
If people wern't more inclined to like Psykers, the vast majority of Inquisitors would be Normals, with a sanctioned psyker underneath them. Yet you find many Inquisitors are Psykers, why would this be unless there was something about Psykers that made them better leaders.

Think about it this way, an Inquisitor can, theoretically, delegate almost all duties to subordinates. If they need something hurt, they bring a thug. If they need pieces put together, they bring an Arbite, if they need knowledge, they bring a savant. If they need to read somebody's mind they bring a Psyker. If they need to sneak in somewhere, they bring a Thief or assassin. The one thing they cannot delegate is overall Leadership. Everybody needs to answer to the Inquisitor, which means they need to respect and trust the Inquisitor. Short-term commands (like ordering around a squad of guardsmen) can be handled by a Rosette, but within a Warband something more is needed.
As for Sanctioned Psykers scaring people, that's on account of the cultural bias against Psykers. That cultural Bias is only overcome by Inquisitor Psykers, who in addition to being very charismatic in their own right, also have the even stronger cultural programming concerning Inquisitors in their favor.

[Cheesegear]

Just because Psyker inquisitors are great leaders, doesn't mean that non-psyker inquisitors cannot be great leaders. In fact, Psyker Inquisitors are not Great leaders because their psykers. They're Inquisitors because they're great leaders.

...Emphasis mine. That isn't what you implied in your previous post. In your previous post you stated that people are drawn to pyskers. Yet, here you say they aren't. Or might not be.


If people wern't more inclined to like Psykers, the vast majority of Inquisitors would be Normals

They are. :smallconfused:
It's not a question of whether people like them or not. It's a question of genetics. Being a psyker is rare. Being an Inquisitor is also rare. Being an Inquisitor who is also a psyker is (supposed to be) exceptionally rare. Since Inquisitors are drawn from the Progeniums. Where, there aren't really all that many psykers to be found. At least, apparently there's less than normal amounts of psi-able children in a Progenium with any discernable talent that can become more than just Food For The Emperor.

Dark Heresy and Inquisitor books expand on this. It may take me a while to find relevant passages.

Draco was barely more than Food. He could deal the Emperor's Tarot, and do some funky things with a Rod. But, that's about it. He wasn't even much of a leader...Considering.


Yet you find many Inquisitors are Psykers

Depends what books you read. The vast majority of (known) Inquisitors are not psykers (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Inquisitors).

What do people find out first? That you're an Inquisitor? Or that you're a psyker? Either way, it's irrelavent, because the status of the Inquisition over-rides any and all prejudices the populace may have.
And even not all the time. As Eisenhorn is hated by quite a few people because he's a psyker...Even though he's an Inquisitor.
Jaq Draco is/was the same.


Think about it this way, an Inquisitor can, theoretically, delegate almost all duties to subordinates. If they need something hurt, they bring a thug. If they need pieces put together, they bring an Arbite, if they need knowledge, they bring a savant. If they need to read somebody's mind they bring a Psyker. If they need to sneak in somewhere, they bring a Thief or assassin. The one thing they cannot delegate is overall Leadership. Everybody needs to answer to the Inquisitor, which means they need to respect and trust the Inquisitor. Short-term commands (like ordering around a squad of guardsmen) can be handled by a Rosette, but within a Warband something more is needed.

Not sure of your point there. :smallconfused:


As for Sanctioned Psykers scaring people, that's on account of the cultural bias against Psykers. That cultural Bias is only overcome by Inquisitor Psykers, who in addition to being very charismatic in their own right, also have the even stronger cultural programming concerning Inquisitors in their favor.

So...You're saying that Psi-Inquisitors are respected because they're Inquisitors. Not because they're psykers. Well done, sir!

[BRC]

...Emphasis mine. That isn't what you implied in your previous post. In your previous post you stated that people are drawn to pyskers. Yet, here you say they aren't. Or might not be.



They are. :smallconfused:
It's not a question of whether people like them or not. It's a question of genetics. Being a psyker is rare. Being an Inquisitor is also rare. Being an Inquisitor who is also a psyker is (supposed to be) exceptionally rare.



Depends what books you read. The vast majority of Inquisitors are not psykers.

What do people find out first? That you're an Inquisitor? Or that you're a psyker? Either way, it's irrelavent, because the status of the Inquisition over-rides any and all prejudices the populace may have.
And even not all the time. As Eisenhorn is hated by quite a few people because he's a psyker...Even though he's an Inquisitor.



Not sure of your point there. :smallconfused:



So...You're saying that Psi-Inquisitors are respected because they're Inquisitors. Not because they're psykers. Well done, sir!

Here, I guess my post wasn't very coherent (I have a habit of doing that).
You seem to be saying (Though I'm probably misinterpreting here), that If Psykers are more charismatic, non-psykers couldn't be leaders. I'm saying the average Psyker is more charismatic than the average Normal. You don't have to be a Psyker to be charismatic, but it helps. Just like you don't have to be a Blank for people to dislike you, but people are more likely to dislike blanks.

Let's set up an equation.

Respect (R)= Charisma (C)+ Cultural Bias (B).

In Imperial Society, there is a considerable cultural bias against Psykers. So if people know somebody is a Psyker, they dislike them.
Johnius Q Imperial is an average citizen, so for him the equation is
C(10)+B(0)=R (10).
However, Bobdarus is a Psyker, which makes him more charismatic than Bob, but throws on the cultural bias.
C(12)+B(-20)=R (-8) So even though Bobdarus is Sanctioned, people still dislike him.

However, if they don't know that Bobdarus is a Psyker, or if that cultural bias is counteracted by something like an inquisitorial rosette or personally knowing Bobdarus (personally knowing somebody counteracts generalization, and with it cultural bias), people like Bobdarus more than Johnius.

Of course, this is based mainly on conjecture and me looking at what I've read and saying "Yeah, that makes sense".

Edit: my block about inquisitors delegating was there to ask the question "Why are so many inquisitors psykers". Because the only thing an Inquisitor cannot delegate is leadership, there must be somthing about Psykers that makes them better leaders, or else it would be very very very rare to find a psi-inquisitor as opposed to a normal inquisitor with a sanctioned psyker under them.

[Cheesegear]

You seem to be saying (Though I'm probably misinterpreting here), that If Psykers are more charismatic, non-psykers couldn't be leaders.

I'm not saying anything of the sort.
You're saying that being a psyker is a good leadership quality. I'm saying it isn't. Being a psyker has nothing to do with leadership.
You're focusing on one sentence in one of my previous posts that I edited out into something more along my argument while you were writing yours and you missed the edit.


I'm saying the average Psyker is more charismatic than the average Normal.

No. They're not. The rest of your argument is flawed because you start with a faulty premise. Most Inquisitors are not psykers. The 'average' psyker is a decrepit, frail half-monstrosity that freaks everyone out. Astropaths, on top of that sentence, are blind as well. Navigators are not at all liked being frail as well. As well as having a giant stick up their a*. Along with frequent attachment to the Warp. Along with a physical mutation on their forehead where everyone is reminded of it. Navigators apparently don't have friends. And appear to not want any.

If psyking is a leadership quality, regardless of who has it, why are psykers universally hated? Surely there should be at least a few of them who can make friends...And there aren't.

Inquisitors are charismatic because they're Inquisitors. Being a psyker has nothing to do with Leadership. Unless you can read minds and give people exactly what they want. But, continuous use of that power may constitute other Inquisitors beating your a* down.
Inquisitors are leaders because they have training and/or talent in doing so. Psyking, once again, has nothing to do with it. If it did, then all psykers should be in positions of power.


"Why are so many inquisitors psykers".

Flawed. There a few psyker-Inquisitors. I'd hardly call that 'so many'.
The vast majority of Inquisitors are not psykers. I even posted a not-very-current list of Inquisitors in my previous post.

Why don't more Inquisitors have sanctioned psykers under them?
Because psykers die. Quickly. Especially when exposed to the kinds of things an Inquisitor may have to deal with. Extended Warp exposure to any psyker (save Navigators) will most likely get them killed, or possessed, or get their Inquisitor killed.
And, if a psyker is unstable (which a great many of them are), depending on the situation when they die, and, with the proper power set, things will go boom.

Amberley Vail has a sanctioned psyker. But, that's not exactly normal behaviour for Inquisitors.

In Eisenhorn, for the named characters; For every one psi-Inquisitor, there's like...Three non-psykers. With multiple non-psi Inquisitors hunting Eisenhorn down. The Grey Knights series, which feature Inquisitors prominantly...Only one of them is a psyker of any note. And she's not a leader. Not by a long shot.

[Talkkno]

In Eisenhorn, for the named characters; For every one psi-Inquisitor, there's like...Three non-psykers. With multiple non-psi Inquisitors hunting Eisenhorn down. The Grey Knights series, which feature Inquisitors prominantly...Only one of them is a psyker of any note. And she's not a leader. Not by a long shot.

Didn't she get corrupted by Chaos? Though I recall she still managed in her maddened state to provide a curial clue to the deamon they were after

[Arcanoi]

I imagine that many Inquisitorial recruiting missions search for psykers, simply because in some ways, psykers will be more effective inquisitors than non-psykers simply because they have psyker abilities. It's also nice to note, that in general, an Inquisitor that can molest reality on a regular basis is more interesting in general than one who can't, and thus is more likely to see mention in most medias.

On the subject of blanks, it could also be noted that it's mentioned that both Bequin and Frauka are very WEAK blanks, in that psykers seem to be able to stand in the same room with them without vomiting. Bequin merely makes people near her feel uncomfortable sensations on their skin, and Frauka just seems like a creepy jerk, but it's altogether possible that Jurgen's (probably far more powerful, as it seems to have much stronger effects, though again this could just be author deviation) blankness manifests as an acutely powerful offense to the sensory organs.

[Lycan 01]

I always saw it like this: Most Inquisitors aren't Psykers. The reason Psyker Inquisitors tend to show up so often in the novels is because:
a) It adds to their coolness and intimidation factor.

b) Their Psyker-y-ness serves a major purpose in the plot. (Ex: Ghostmaker)

c) Their Psyker-y-ness has made them extremely powerful, and allowed them to have a prolific Inquisitorial career. They've managed to obtain a lot of authority, power, knowledge, and skill. This is why they're assigned to whatever situation drags them into the story. (Ex: First and Only)



Basically, the majority of Inquisitors are non-Psykers. The Pyskers just have more plot value. :smalltongue:

[shadow_archmagi]

I need to get this stuff. Jurgen and Cain sound nifty.

[Cheesegear]

I imagine that many Inquisitorial recruiting missions search for psykers, simply because in some ways, psykers will be more effective inquisitors than non-psykers simply because they have psyker abilities.

Seconded. But, it has nothing to do with Leadership abilities. It just means they make better Warp sensitives. A high proportion (comparitively) of Ordo Malleus Inqies appear to be psykers. I'll grant that.
But, it's still like, 6 or 7% are psykers in Malleus.
Rather than 2 or 3% in Xenos, and less psykers in Hereticus.


On the subject of blanks, it could also be noted that it's mentioned that both Bequin and Frauka are very WEAK blanks, in that psykers seem to be able to stand in the same room with them without vomiting.

That's a joke, right? It's certainly possible that Bequin's aura is a small one. But, there is only one 'strength' of Blank. Total.

Bequin could hold back Cherubael - not including physical attacks. And, even put down a Titan. Bequin is not weak. However, Eisenhorn frequently needs to hold her hand to gain immunities. It is also noted that Eisenhorn is not a strong psyker either. By rights, he shouldn't even be able to touch Bequin at all without something visceral happening to him.
Probably due to conditioning is Eisenhorn able to be around a Blank for so long.

Jurgen, on the other hand. Has a very distinct aura. And, apparently a powerful one.

Dark Heresy has different levels of Blank. There's the kind that only affects the person him or herself (such as Bequin). And, by investing starting characteristics, they gain an aura (such as Jurgen).

[Arcanoi]

I meant the intensity of their 'fields of blankness'. If he concentrates on it, Frauka is able to cover a small apartment, but when he doesn't he's got a very small one, that a daemon was actually able to beat down and suppress. Bequin can't extend it any respectable distance beyond her own person. Jurgen, meanwhile, can stun Genestealer patriarchs by walking into the same respectably large room as them. It's likely that the more encompassed a person is by the 'field of blankness', the more total the feeling is.

[One Step Two]

Dark Heresy has different levels of Blank. There's the kind that only affects the person him or herself (such as Bequin). And, by investing starting characteristics, they gain an aura (such as Jurgen).

Which rule book and which page can I find this?

[Cheesegear]

Which rule book and which page can I find this?

Disciples of the Dark Gods, page 28. And 'Blank radius' is equal to your Wp Bonus in metres. Must be taken at time of character creation. Any decent person can have at least 40 Wp at the start of the game. An 8m circle is rather huge...

Given the antagonists of 40K, being a Blank in Dark Heresy is exceptionally powerful. And any GM would be foolish to let you have it. Let's hope they know. :smallwink:

So, Blanks can disrupt the Hive Mind. Blanks can banish daemons by looking at them in a stern way. Blanks can stop Necron Pariahs doing their thing. Is their any indication that a Blank can block the Orks' Groupthink and/or disrupt Waaagh! Energy?
The tabletop game says that they can. But, I thought that Orks operated on a 'closed circuit' that doesn't have anything to do with the Warp?
...Except that Ork Roks definitely fly through the Warp...

Also, what effect does a Blank have when it comes near/in contact with an Eldar Spirit Stone? A Blank is known to shut down Titans...Can a Blank disrupt Wraithguard/Lords?

(Also, Abnett's third 'Eisenhorn-verse' trilogy is reported to be tentatively titled 'Bequin'...I will read this)

[Platinius]

Blanks essentially shut down everything psy-something, I'd say the Wraithguards are shut down, but as soon as the blank goes away, it fires up again. Soulstones can likely not be destroyed by a blank holding it, but they sure can't do anything else.

If there is a book with Bequin as main character I'll read it for sure (I liked her in the Eisenhorn series)

[Wraith]

Is their any indication that a Blank can block the Orks' Groupthink and/or disrupt Waaagh! Energy?
The tabletop game says that they can. But, I thought that Orks operated on a 'closed circuit' that doesn't have anything to do with the Warp?
...Except that Ork Roks definitely fly through the Warp...

I don't see why a Blank wouldn't effect the Orks. Waaagh! power is generated as an ambient, low-level psychic aura that acts a lot like the Tyranid Shadow in the Warp, so a Blank probably would disrupt this in the immediate area if not over an entire battlefield.

Ork Weirdboyz definitely would have their powers negated by a Blank. I dread to think what would then happen to the Weirdboy in question, given the... irregularity of Orkish psykers.... :smallwink:


Also, what effect does a Blank have when it comes near/in contact with an Eldar Spirit Stone? A Blank is known to shut down Titans...Can a Blank disrupt Wraithguard/Lords?

This one is harder to answer, as we dont know the extent of the relationship between Spirit Stones and Wraith Creatures.
According to the Lexicanum, the Spirit Stone is just be a 'point of entry' for the soul within, which spreads itself out and literally controls the Construct directly. This process is irreversible, suggesting that the Soul is literally inhabiting the Construct, like a human wearing a suit of Power Armour.
If this were true, coming into contact with a Blank would be unnerving - and maybe even painful - but the soul would still be there, being 'conducted' through the Wraithbone like an electrical charge coming from a battery and would arguably be able to function.

I think this theory is supported by the fact that Pariah and Blanks in the table-top only upset Psykers - they don't effect Wraith Constructs in the game, nor do they effect Exarchs and Phoenix Lords who all draw their power from Spirit Stones in a similar manner, and I'd imagine that Dark Heresy runs along similar lines.

The only thing that I can say for sure is, whether active or not, a Wraithlord/guard would not be able to see a Blank. According to Codex Eldar, their "Wraithsight" rule represents the fact that Wraith Constructs' senses are only partially in the Physical Realm, and occasionally overlaps into the Warp. As we all know, in the Warp Blanks have no presence, and as such would be 'invisible' to a Wraithlord.

[Arcanoi]

Can Eldar Farseers see blanks in their visions, or does their blankness make their paths through the future incalculable?

[Cheesegear]

This one is harder to answer, as we dont know the extent of the relationship between Spirit Stones and Wraith Creatures.
According to the Lexicanum, the Spirit Stone is just be a 'point of entry' for the soul within, which spreads itself out and literally controls the Construct directly. This process is irreversible, suggesting that the Soul is literally inhabiting the Construct, like a human wearing a suit of Power Armour.
If this were true, coming into contact with a Blank would be unnerving - and maybe even painful - but the soul would still be there, being 'conducted' through the Wraithbone like an electrical charge coming from a battery and would arguably be able to function.

But, a Blank, is in fact an empty vessel with no soul or Warp Presence. A Spirit Stone is effectively a Soul Jar. If a Blank physically held a 'full' Spirit Stone, what would happen?


I think this theory is supported by the fact that Pariah and Blanks in the table-top only upset Psykers - they don't effect Wraith Constructs in the game, nor do they effect Exarchs and Phoenix Lords who all draw their power from Spirit Stones in a similar manner

The tabletop game says a lot of things. Most of which aren't true. Or are just expedient and easy when it comes to rules and/or 'being fair'. Or, more likely, just doesn't get thought of.


and I'd imagine that Dark Heresy runs along similar lines.

Dark Heresy plays by the fluff. It has almost nothing to do with the 40K game except that they happen to be in the same Universe and contain the same characters. When it comes to the fluff, Dark Heresy is pretty good and seems to stick with everything else. It's also fairly in depth.
I'll crack open my Creatures Anathema book to see what it says about Spirit Stones...

Creatures Anathema, Page 77:
"The purpose of a waystone is to capture the psychic energy of an Eldar when it is released at the moment of death. Afterwards it is known as a Spirit Stone, containing a large part of an Eldar's personality, memories and sense of self; the stone becomes a repository for the Eldar's soul.

There's more to the passage about Crone Worlds and how valuable Waystones/Spirit Stones are...But, that's not important. I emphasised 'psychic energy', since Blanks are closely associated with that. I imagine something would happen.

Lexicanum has this to say on Wraithguard:
"This is done so through the guidance of a Seer who removes the fallen warriors Spirit Stone from the Infinity Circuit in order to place it into a pscyhoplastic body made of Wraithbone. Through the act, the robotic body is empowered with a living intellect that guides its artificial nature."

It appears it's like a Titan. And we know that the mind link of a Titan can be disrupted by Blanks. Unlike Wraithlords, Wraithguard are not permanently attached into their shell. Although, that comes with a [citation needed], so...I'll take that with a grain of salt.


The only thing that I can say for sure is, whether active or not, a Wraithlord/guard would not be able to see a Blank. According to Codex Eldar, their "Wraithsight" rule represents the fact that Wraith Constructs' senses are only partially in the Physical Realm, and occasionally overlaps into the Warp.

Makes sense to me.


Can Eldar Farseers see blanks in their visions, or does their blankness make their paths through the future incalculable?

Yes. Well, at least they're immune to the Emperor's Tarot. I don't know about Farseers though. As a daemon - albeit a really powerful one - I don't believe Tzeentch could see a Blank either.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yes. Well, at least they're immune to the Emperor's Tarot. I don't know about Farseers though. As a daemon - albeit a really powerful one - I don't believe Tzeentch could see a Blank either.

This is addressed in the Inquisitor book, the Second annual I think, which has a couple of sample blanks/pariahs (Sgt. Dorian Black and Jeremiah, Dannica's pet blank, if I'm remembering correctly).

Daemons can't see blanks themselves, but they can see the result of their actions - footsteps, swirling breeze, opening doors, etc.

So basically, blanks are invisible until a daemon starts to look for them, at which point it begins becoming something more like looking at the sun - you can't look straight at it, but you can get a pretty good idea of where the blank/the sun.

[Wraith]

The tabletop game says a lot of things. Most of which aren't true.

Citation please? Or do we start disregarding 'most' things that has ever been mentioned in a MRB or Codex? And if so, which do we keep as truth and which is exposed as falsehood? :smalltongue:


Dark Heresy plays by the fluff. It has almost nothing to do with the 40K game except that they happen to be in the same Universe and contain the same characters.

So, they're both entirely different games - I can live with that.
If that's the case, I don't see why both explanations can't be true, depending on their context. What is true of one game, isn't necessarily true of the other - compare Warhammer Fantasy and Blood Bowl as a good example of the same.


I imagine something would happen.

I would agree with this quite happily; I just don't think it would be as tragic and destructive as a Wrathlord just falling over on the spot, or a Phoenix Lord suddenly collapsing into a pile of empty pieces of armour.
Besides: You say "psychic energy", I say "soul". They're not necessarily the same thing. Tyranids are psykers, for example, but they almost certainly don't have souls. Neither do Orks, by traditional reckoning, but that won't stop a Weirdboy blowing someone's head off with a stray thought.


It appears it's like a Titan. And we know that the mind link of a Titan can be disrupted by Blanks.

Are you referring to an Eldar Titan, please? And if so, may I ask where the source comes from?
I'm certainly not disagreeing with you on this part - in fact I'm very much intrigued. :smallsmile:

[Cheesegear]

Daemons can't see blanks themselves, but they can see the result of their actions - footsteps, swirling breeze, opening doors, etc.

I'm assuming daemonhosts are immune to this fact. Since they're mostly physical forms. And since Cherubael (in a host) belts Bequin nine ways 'til Sunday.


Citation please? Or do we start disregarding 'most' things that has ever been mentioned in a MRB or Codex? And if so, which do we keep as truth and which is exposed as falsehood? :smalltongue:

I meant as regarding the rules of the game. Such as an Avatar counting as a daemon for all intents and purposes. Or the 'vanilisation' of (most) Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Space Marines apparently always arrive with their full (and non-Codex Approved) battle Companies at all times. etc.
The fluff and things in Codecies are fine. Just the rules are not the same in Dark Heresy. Lasguns actually are an effective weapon (compared to most things), and wearing a helmet matters. :smallwink:


So, they're both entirely different games - I can live with that.

Just the rules. Not the fluff. Fluff is 100% the same. If not more in depth.


I would agree with this quite happily; I just don't think it would be as tragic and destructive as a Wrathlord just falling over on the spot, or a Phoenix Lord suddenly collapsing into a pile of empty pieces of armour.

Oh. I didn't say that would happen. But, something certainly would.


Besides: You say "psychic energy", I say "soul". They're not necessarily the same thing.

The passage I quoted apparently equates them as the same. As does Lexicanum's (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Spirit_Stone) take on Spirit Stones.

Posted for convienience;
"At the moment of the Eldar's death the stone acts like a 'psychic trap' absorbing his psychic self and preventing it from entering the warp and being consumed by the nemesis of the Eldar race: Slaanesh."

I like the Dark Heresy wording better (in a previous post). Which uses the actual word soul in a sentence. The rest of the Lexicanum article says 'soul' a lot. But, ultimately, it all comes back to the posted quote that says the soul is a psychic signature/self.


Tyranids are psykers, for example, but they almost certainly don't have souls. Neither do Orks, by traditional reckoning, but that won't stop a Weirdboy blowing someone's head off with a stray thought.

Tyranids don't count. Neither do Orks. Both for different reasons. This has been brought up in relation to which souls go to the Chaos Gods argument. The only races who have souls (that matter) appear to be humans and Eldar.
And the soul appears to be directly related to psychic signature.

There is a correlation. Probably more so among the Eldar who are born and bred who use psyking as their bread and butter. Especially in the above on how Spirit Stones work.
Or Blanks. Who have no soul and who also happen to have no Psychic presence. It's hardly a coincidence.


Are you referring to an Eldar Titan, please? And if so, may I ask where the source comes from?

I was referring to the fact that a 'Sentient Intelligence inserted into an artificial contruct' was remarkably similar to a Titan. Any Titan. Which is not like a Dreadnought at all, where the Space Marine operator controls it manually. Rather than psychically on a Titan.

(Probably not Eldar Titans, who are powered by Spirit Stones...But, that's a psychic event too...Sort of. And the 'Blank vs. Spirit Stone' debate applies.)

Eisenhorn series. Chaos Titan. Although I suspect the fact that it was possessed may have something to do with Bequin's abilities against it. But, she did disrupt the mind link to the pilot. Whilst Cherubael ripped it apart.

[Platinius]

It seems that blanks are most efficitent weapons, perhaps the Black Ships should collect them too. In fact, it would render the transport of the psykers much safer and it gave the Imperium a method of shutting down out of control psykers that doesn't involve a Comissar and a bullet.

[Krrth]

It seems that blanks are most efficitent weapons, perhaps the Black Ships should collect them too. In fact, it would render the transport of the psykers much safer and it gave the Imperium a method of shutting down out of control psykers that doesn't involve a Comissar and a bullet.

Actually, they do have other methods. There's a drug used that shuts down a Pskyers' ability to connect to the warp.

[Platinius]

But how easy/difficult is it to apply to a raving mad-person who can fry a dozen men with lightning? The Imperium could deliver psyker and blanks to the requesting commanders in sets.

'Get your psyker today and you get a blank for free':smallbiggrin:

[SmartAlec]

On the subject of blanks, it could also be noted that it's mentioned that both Bequin and Frauka are very WEAK blanks

It might be worth noting that most of the time, Frauka is under the effects of a 'limiter' that contains his blankness. And even then, he comes off as a creepy jerk.

It's also worth noting that Eisenhorn's plan to mess with a Titan using Bequin didn't work, might not have had any effect at all (it's hard to see, because we don't see the Titan while she makes the attempt) and might in fact have been doomed from the start, as Eisenhorn is basically making the plan up as he goes. That plan more or less equates to 'there is a fire, we'll pour water on it'; for all we know, a Titan's mindlink might be the equivalent of a chemical or electrical fire, in this analogy.

And lastly, putting Blanks on the Black Ships might eventually fail, as readers of Ravenor will know that
Zael manages to wear away Frauka's resistance to psychic power through long-term persistence.

[Krrth]

But how easy/difficult is it to apply to a raving mad-person who can fry a dozen men with lightning? The Imperium could deliver psyker and blanks to the requesting commanders in sets.

'Get your psyker today and you get a blank for free':smallbiggrin:

If I'm remembering correctly, it can be administered by injection or gas. So a trank dart or gas grenade would do the trick.

[Platinius]

It would even be even more effectif if said drug could be administrated by a blank, but you are right.

concerning spoiler
I suspect Zael was a trained psyker and aimed his powers directly at Frauka resitance to break it
You argue well, it isn't perfect (after al it's GRIMDARK) but it would be safer and likely less costly then the alternativ. Less losses (=more weaponized psykers) and more anti-psyker/warp weapons which would be present at a relativ abondance and easy in application (a blank seriously hardly needs to do much other than standing there)

[Myshlaevsky]

It would even be even more effectif if said drug could be administrated by a blank, but you are right.

concerning spoiler
I suspect Zael was a trained psyker and aimed his powers directly at Frauka resitance to break it
You argue well, it isn't perfect (after al it's GRIMDARK) but it would be safer and likely less costly then the alternativ. Less losses (=more weaponized psykers) and more anti-psyker/warp weapons which would be present at a relativ abondance and easy in application (a blank seriously hardly needs to do much other than standing there)

If a psyker hurls a bunch of machinery at a far away blank, surely even when his powers cut out the stuff is going to continue to accelerate and smash the guy to bits? My understanding was that blanks could only affect the direct attentions of a psyker within their field, so that while they are powerful defensive weapons they are by no means the be-all and end-all of counter measures. A normal blank just isn't on the same offensive level as a 'weaponized' psyker - that place was always occupied, in my understanding, by Culexus assassins and Pariahs.

[BRC]

But how easy/difficult is it to apply to a raving mad-person who can fry a dozen men with lightning? The Imperium could deliver psyker and blanks to the requesting commanders in sets.

'Get your psyker today and you get a blank for free':smallbiggrin:
Except that blanks are very rare. If I remember correctly, Amberly says that the ratio of Blanks to Psykers is about that of Psykers to normal humans. Plus, Blanks are very hard to find. You can identify a psyker when they start reading your mind, or their eyes start glowing. The only way to identify a blank is to get them close enough to a Psyker for the Psyker to freak out and notice something is wrong, and then (Because not many people know Blanks exist), somebody has to realize what's going on.

Also, as mentioned, while Blanks are immune to warp-based attacks, everything else kills them plenty dead.

[Platinius]

I'm saying the Imperium should introduce blanks as a weapon in general rather than selecting only the strongest (clexi assasins) and ignoring the rest. The problem in this matter is probably that blanks are not so visible to the regular Imperial officer in comparison to psyker.

[Myshlaevsky]

who are as rare as Space Marines (or even rarer?)

I'm saying the Imperium should introduce blanks as a weapon in general rather than selecting only the strongest (clexi assasins) and ignoring the rest. The problem in this matter is probably that blanks are not so visible to the regular Imperial officer in comparison to psyker.

They do, though? I always thought that once discovered (and reported) a blank would be put to use in some capacity. The Culexus thing has always seemed like a bit of a waste to me, because the survival rates of assassin trainees are abysmal. It's a waste of a lot of blank talent. It also makes me wonder what happens when you servitorize a blank, because it's stated that failed assassin adepts often suffer that fate. The "no longer has a soul" argument against psyker-servitors doesn't work with blanks, because they never had one anyway.

[BRC]

who are as rare as Space Marines (or even rarer?)

I'm saying the Imperium should introduce blanks as a weapon in general rather than selecting only the strongest (clexi assasins) and ignoring the rest. The problem in this matter is probably that blanks are not so visible to the regular Imperial officer in comparison to psyker.
The Imperium makes use of every blank they can get their hands on, the problem is getting their hands on the blanks. In fact, in the Cain archive, Amberly deems it a better idea to "Hide" Jurgen in a frontline infantry regiment than openly bring him into her warband, because if word got out that she had a Blank, he would get snatched up by the Ordo Malleus or something.

It's not like "You're a blank? Sorry, you're not good enough for us to use, go back home" They're like "You're a blank! How do you feel about constant danger and being used as a weapon against chaos cultists. Well it dosn't matter because we're the inquisition, and we want you"

[Platinius]

If the Inquisition finds as many blanks as psykers in general, they could be used well in pairs (hence my joke about sets:smallwink:). It also means there are likely more blanks than psykers since psykers are relativly 'flashy' and blanks are just annoying. In the Imperium annoying people are ignored or shot (you know GRIMDARK). A Comissar is much more likely to shoot a(n) (undiscowerd) blank in comparison to the normal gunmeatsoldier.

[BRC]

If the Inquisition finds as many blanks as psykers in general, they could be used well in pairs (hence my joke about sets:smallwink:). It also means there are likely more blanks than psykers since psykers are relativly 'flashy' and blanks are just annoying. In the Imperium annoying people are ignored or shot. A Comissar is much more likely to shoot a(n) (undiscowerd) blank in comparison to the normal gunmeatsoldier.
Except that there are far Fewer blanks than Psykers. If you believe Amberly, the Psyker-Blank ratio is about that of the Normal-Psyker Ratio. Plus the Blanks are harder to find.

Mind you, when you factor in the number of Psykers that get sanctioned, the numbers even out a little, but not nearly enough to allow a 1:1 ratio.
Of course, it's possible there are more blanks than psykers, it's just that they don't get discovered, but that dosn't solve the problem, unless you manage to round up every imperial citizen and parade them past a Psyker.

[Myshlaevsky]

If the Inquisition finds as many blanks as psykers in general, they could be used well in pairs (hence my joke about sets:smallwink:). It also means there are likely more blanks than psykers since psykers are relativly 'flashy' and blanks are just annoying. In the Imperium annoying people are ignored or shot. A Comissar is much more likely to shoot a(n) (undiscowerd) blank in comparison to the normal gunmeatsoldier.

Many more psykers are found than blanks; the ratio of psyker:blank is slated vastly in favour of the psyker. Your note about there likely being more blanks applies to the fact that many (of this smaller fraction of blanks) go undiscovered, but I think the ratio thing is stated canon.

They can't really work in pairs because being around a blank is like living agony to a psyker, so the psyker would have to stay outside the blank's range at all times. In battle, if he accidentally wandered into range then he'd lose all his powers. I could see an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor keeping a blank close by him and using drugged-up penitent witches fitted with explosive collars as living 'suicide weapons' attacking in advance of him.

As for your point about executions, remember that a lot of psykers are killed on breakthrough and that, as a group, they are more vunerable to circumstances which can result in death & execution than blanks are.

[Platinius]

If the 'blankness' is already working when a person is born (that seems to be the case), it would be a reltivly easy thing to check schools (on the less feral planets) ever few years with a psyker. (You know, you had a very good idea)

I know I said working in pairsbut that doesn't mean they have to stand next to each other all the time

[Illiterate Scribe]

I'm assuming daemonhosts are immune to this fact. Since they're mostly physical forms. And since Cherubael (in a host) belts Bequin nine ways 'til Sunday.

Technically, even a daemonhost can't see a blank, but that in no way stops them from beating the hell out of them. It's quite possible that a daemon would be similarly adept at ripping a null apart in combat, too, they just wouldn't like it, and wouldn't be able to affect their soul.


(You are not thinking in longer terms)
If the 'blankness' is already working when a person is born (that seems to be the case), it would be a reltivly easy thing to check schools (on the less feral planets) ever few years with a psyker. (You know, you had a very good idea)

I dunno, it would require essentially carting a witch around every single slum in the galaxy looking for pariahs, which isn't going to go down too well. Remember too that blanks are the most likely people to exiled, alone, and out of the easy reach of the Imperium, since everybody hates them.

Furthermore, Dorian Black, aformentioned, didn't realise his capability until mid-way through his career, suggesting that it's possible for them to just slip past the net until you're touching each one with an astropath.

[Erloas]

What about the possibility of selectively breeding blanks or psykers for that matter? Round up all the blanks you can find, have a big blank orgy and come back in a few years and collect some. Its not like you have to worry about them falling to slaneesh or anything.

[BRC]

(You are not thinking in longer terms)
If the 'blankness' is already working when a person is born (that seems to be the case), it would be a reltivly easy thing to check schools (on the less feral planets) ever few years with a psyker. (You know, you had a very good idea)
Which still only covers a small percentage of the Imperial population. It would help, but it would be like throwing a teacup at the sun.

The vast vast vast majority of Imperial Citizens probably never go anywhere near a school. They work in fields or factories or they simply squat in the underhive.
In terms of mass recruitment of blanks, the most reasonable method would be to check Imperial guardsmen. It's a small number compared to the total population yes, but you've already got them parading around, and the Sanctioned Psykers are already nearbye.
Plus, it might be useful to see if any of them are latent Psykers themselves.


On the note of Demons vs Blanks, this actually happens in one of the Cain books. Jurgen's presence severely messes up a Demon, and when he actually touches it the Demon more or less dies.


Also, I don't know if there's any indication Psykers or Blanks get their powers genetically. So selective breeding might not work.

[Myshlaevsky]

If the 'blankness' is already working when a person is born (that seems to be the case), it would be a reltivly easy thing to check schools (on the less feral planets) ever few years with a psyker. (You know, you had a very good idea)

I know I said working in pairsbut that doesn't mean they have to stand next to each other all the time

Obviously this doesn't gel with the image of psykers in the Imperium, but nonetheless in areas where it would be possible it seems like a solid idea. I could see a progressive Inquisitor trying to institute this system.

The problem with the pairs thing is that their abilities more or less directly contradict each other. Given that every psyker has a measure of 'x' psychic defense anyway, a blank seems too risky to the potential power of the group. It would be useful in a situation where the psyker went out of control but only really useful if the psyker was already being nullified. If he's out of the blank's range then he can possibly still off the blank anyway, and a bullet has better odds of bringing him down at that distance.


Technically, even a daemonhost can't see a blank, but that in no way stops them from beating the hell out of them. It's quite possible that a daemon would be similarly adept at ripping a null apart in combat, too, they just wouldn't like it, and wouldn't be able to affect their soul.

I never knew this. I always assumed that the effect of a blank or null on a daemon or daemonhost was enormously harmful - after all, it effectively severs the warp connection.


What about the possibility of selectively breeding blanks or psykers for that matter? Round up all the blanks you can find, have a big blank orgy and come back in a few years and collect some. Its not like you have to worry about them falling to slaneesh or anything.

Probably is already being done. And going wrong in some catastrophically GRIMDARK way.

[Platinius]

Blanks should be easier/safer to breed since they can't run amok the same way pskers do:smallwink:, though they should have a real hard time finding a girlfriend/boyfriend. Bequin (though a lovely and beautiful woman) seems to never have had a boyfriend after meeting Eisenhorn (or before for that matter, she was a pleasure girl/prostitue before, though we can safely assume she simply became one because nobody wanted her anywhere else, hot enough to have sex with, but such a bad aura that nobody wanted an actual relationship with her)

On another matter, blanks are vulnerable to physical danger than anybody else, a psyker could defend himself/herself with a gun, but he/she could do that against anyboby. Besides even if said (maddened) psyker uses his/hes powers against the blank by throwing objects at them, it would give other people an oppening to attact/subdue with drug/commisar and bullet him/her.

Edit: People needn't know that there is a psyker among the group sent by the Inquisition to check on the moral, loyalty and genetic situation of the school/community.

[BRC]

Blanks should be easier/safer to breed since they can't run amok the same way pskers do:smallwink:, though they should have a real hard time finding a girlfriend/boyfriend. Bequin (though a lovely and beautiful woman) seems to never have had a boyfriend after meeting Eisenhorn (or before for that matter, she was a pleasure girl/prostitue before, though we can safely assume she simply became one because nobody wanted her anywhere else, hot enough to have sex with, but such a bad aura that anybody wanted a relationship with her)

On another matter, blanks are vulnerable to physical danger than anybody else, a psyker could defend himself/herself with a gun, but he/she could do that against anyboby. Besides even if said (maddened) psyker uses his/hes powers against the blank by throwing objects at them, it would give other people an oppening to attact/subdue with drug/commisar and bullet him/her.
Which is, of course, assuming that Blanks and Psykers can be selectively bred in the first place. If it's possible, I'm surprised the Imperium isn't doing it.
Even with Psykers, if you know, from birth, that somebody is going to be a Psyker, you can prepare them for sanction at a young age. Mass Producing Loyal, Sane, Sanctioned Psykers.
I've never heard of any children of Psykers, so I don't know if that works. The only thing I can think of was Whatshisname, from the Guant's Ghosts books, who was later found to be a Psyker, and who said his Grandmother was odd in someway (She may have been a low-grade Psyker, but he certainly didn't think of her as anything more than a fortune teller).

[Zorg]

What about the possibility of selectively breeding blanks or psykers for that matter? Round up all the blanks you can find, have a big blank orgy and come back in a few years and collect some. Its not like you have to worry about them falling to slaneesh or anything.

The C'tan thank you for enhancing the pariah program meatbag :smallwink:

[Myshlaevsky]

Which is, of course, assuming that Blanks and Psykers can be selectively bred in the first place. If it's possible, I'm surprised the Imperium isn't doing it.
Even with Psykers, if you know, from birth, that somebody is going to be a Psyker, you can prepare them for sanction at a young age. Mass Producing Loyal, Sane, Sanctioned Psykers.
I've never heard of any children of Psykers, so I don't know if that works. The only thing I can think of was Whatshisname, from the Guant's Ghosts books, who was later found to be a Psyker, and who said his Grandmother was odd in someway (She may have been a low-grade Psyker, but he certainly didn't think of her as anything more than a fortune teller).

Psykers break through with their powers, so you probably can't identify until after that point. Most psykers probably do not have opportunities to reproduce after discovered, but it's sort of implied both blanks and psykers are expressions of genetic potential, so I imagine they could eventually be bred true.


Edit: People needn't know that there is a psyker among the group sent by the Inquisition to check on the moral, loyalty and genetic situation of the school/community.

Eh, some people will know. Monodominance and psyker hate aren't restricted to the lowest classes in the Imperium; there are plenty of Inquisitors and Imperial Commanders who espouse those ideals. Nonetheless, where the idea could be executed it seems like a good one. Possibly the Sisters of Silence recruit like this, if they are still around.

[Krrth]

Which is, of course, assuming that Blanks and Psykers can be selectively bred in the first place. If it's possible, I'm surprised the Imperium isn't doing it.
Even with Psykers, if you know, from birth, that somebody is going to be a Psyker, you can prepare them for sanction at a young age. Mass Producing Loyal, Sane, Sanctioned Psykers.
I've never heard of any children of Psykers, so I don't know if that works. The only thing I can think of was Whatshisname, from the Guant's Ghosts books, who was later found to be a Psyker, and who said his Grandmother was odd in someway (She may have been a low-grade Psyker, but he certainly didn't think of her as anything more than a fortune teller).

If I had to guess, I'd say the genes that make a Psyker are recessive. They also probably need an environmental factor to trigger them. I know Dark Heresy mentions that when the Tyrant Star appears in a system, a larger than normal chuck of the population "awakens".

Given the state of Imperial technology, they probably haven't isolated the genes necessary.

[BRC]

That said, how much does the Imperium know about Genetics? Genecode Scanners have been mentioned a couple times, able to identify a specific individual by their DNA. But it's possible the AdMech is just aping the technology, and dosn't actually understand the principles behind DNA beyond a way to identify individuals. If Psykers do get their powers genetically, it might be possible to mass-scan blood samples for potentials.

[Selrahc]

If blankness is a genetic factor then those with the blank gene will be at the very fringes of society. Right down with the mutants and the madmen at the bottom of the slum and stuck there forever because everybody hates them. People like that are hard to search for within the system, because they have only limited interaction with the system.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I never knew this. I always assumed that the effect of a blank or null on a daemon or daemonhost was enormously harmful - after all, it effectively severs the warp connection.

Presumably the nastiest ones do - Culexus assassins, for example - but the main effect of the Pariah gene is the invincible warp presence.

Just thought of a canonical example of a daemonhost killing a pariah, and using its power to damage the body, actually - end of Flight of the Eisenstein, where the lieutenant, I forget his name, goes all Nurgle-y and massacres the Sisters of Silence contingent of the moon.

Presumably the majority of blanks can be bodily harmed just fine by daemons, but their minds/souls remain intact. Thus, directly warp-based attacks, ie psychic powers, fail, but if the warp creates a material hazard, that works just fine, although of course you'd have trouble targeting 'em.

[BRC]

If blankness is a genetic factor then those with the blank gene will be at the very fringes of society. Right down with the mutants and the madmen at the bottom of the slum and stuck there forever because everybody hates them. People like that are hard to search for within the system, because they have only limited interaction with the system.
Not necessarily. Blanks are unlikable, but not freakkish. People rarely know why they dislike a blank, or they chalk it up to something like a lack of Hygiene. They're more likely to be the guy who nobody talks to at work than the crazy hobo living in the gutters.

[Selrahc]

Perhaps. If that is the case though, I think it is more likely that blankness is a recessive set of genes. People who are blank would be unlikely to breed, because how could they ever find a willing partner? The gene would die out fast. At the bottom of society desperation could lead them to breed.

[GolemsVoice]

Lexicanum says that at least the Navigator's talents are encoded in their genes. So, just assuming both blankness and being a psyker were genetically determined, what would you get if you bred a psyker and a blank? A normal person? (That is, if the process doesn't kill the psyker). Knowing my Warhammer 40K, it'll be a nameless horror, but just think about it....




Now, to travel through the warp, the Imperium uses machines that rip a hole in reality and transfer the vessel to the warp. Isn't that basically the same thing a psyker does to manifest his powers? Granted, the machines in imperial ships don't siphon power, they just open a connection, but would a powerful blank staqnding next to those warp-travelling machines make a jump impossible, sincethe connection to the warp cannot be opened? Also, would a blank standing next to a navigator cancel his warp-sight, thus causing the vessel to go astray in the warp?

[Myshlaevsky]

Lexicanum says that at least the Navigator's talents are encoded in their genes. So, just assuming both blankness and being a psyker were genetically determined, what would you get if you bred a psyker and a blank? A normal person? (That is, if the process doesn't kill the psyker). Knowing my Warhammer 40K, it'll be a nameless horror, but just think about it....




Now, to travel through the warp, the Imperium uses machines that rip a hole in reality and transfer the vessel to the warp. Isn't that basically the same thing a psyker does to manifest his powers? Granted, the machines in imperial ships don't siphon power, they just open a connection, but would a powerful blank staqnding next to those warp-travelling machines make a jump impossible, sincethe connection to the warp cannot be opened? Also, would a blank standing next to a navigator cancel his warp-sight, thus causing the vessel to go astray in the warp?

I always understood psykers to 'squeeze' the power, so to speak.

Sisters of Silence say no, I think, although I bet the Navigator is pretty isolated on such ships. I'm not sure where the line is drawn - is there a recorded instance of a blank affecting technology?

Also, anyone with the Rogue Trader book feel like sharing any extra fluff on Navigators? If it's there? I was always interested in the time-affecting powers they were given in their Inquisitor article. It made me wonder what kind of psychic abilities the Navigator actually has.

[Zorg]

The Navigator gene was harnessed by humanity in the Dark Age of Technology (around th eyear 20,000), before psykers emerged as a countable force. RT states it is not known if it was created or merely discovered and cultivated as beneficial to its current state. This is breadable, with the navigator families being horribly interbread in some cases to preserve their genetic gift as both parents must be navigators.

In the original RT stuff they never have psychic powers and are no more vulnerable to psychic attack than a normal human.

The Pariah gene was implanted in humanity by the Necrons as a long term counter to psykers (Eldar in particular). It is presumably breadable, but seems very latent.

Psykers are random as far as I know - I've never seen any info on families of psykers or the like. It also goes with the whole spontaneously-emerging-warp-portal-in-your-head thing they often have going on. The early Rogue Trader stuff had it as being completely unexplainable (even during the Dark Age), spontaneous and widespread:

Rogue Trader, page 146 (psykers): "This mutation reflects a general trend amongst humanity and is becoming increasingly common, presaging the emergance of a new, psychicly aware race. The mutation usually develops between th eages of ten and twenty, although it has been known for psykers to 'emerge' during infancy and even middle age. On the countless different worlds of the Imperium psykers are known by many names, and their role in society varies greatly. On feral worlds they are shamans or magicians, on medieval worlds witches or warlocks, amongst the more sophisticated societies telepaths or mediums. By whatever name they are known they are both a threat and a boon to the Imperium.

Psykers represent humanity's future, the ideal creature into which mankind will evolve, a more powerful, more intelligent and more capable life form. However, as yet the new race is weak, its members lacking the mental strength needed to face the dangers of the psychic universe. [goes on to describe threats from the warp] Were the new race of psykers permitted to develop free and unprotected, the whole of humanity would soon be destroyed [as it almost was during the Dark age of technology when psykers first emerged].

For this reason, the forces of the Imperium ensure psykers are tracked down by whatever means necessary. Once detected they must be protected. Those strong enough to stand alone will be recruited into the Adeptus Terra, the Army [now Guard] or other Imperial service. Of the remainder the most able will recieve the protection of the Emperor and join the ranks of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica [astropaths], the rest are doomed to serve their fellow man as members of the Adeptus Astronomica or as nourishment for the Emperor himself. Death may seem a harsh form of protection, but it is the only alternative, even those protected by the Emperor are not 100% safe and his powers are too precious to waste on any but the most deserving."

Rogue Trader, page 142 (Inquisition): "The most common threat posed to humanity, and therefore the most common problem faced by the Inquisitor, is that of psykers. The Inquisitor must be on his guard not only for individual psykers (who are mostly harmless) but for organisation, secret cults and other, so-called revolutionary groups working to protect and hide emergant psykers. Although such groups start with good intentions they always fall under the sway of psychicly attuned aliens - creatures that wish only to destroy and enslave mankind. Another great threat to humanity which the Inquisition labour to expose is that of mutation - the constant pollution of the human gene pool. Although most mutations are harmless, if the race is to develop into the new, psychically aware creature envisioned by the Emperor, other sinister and potentially dangerous mutations must be destroyed. Mutations which affect psykers can produce creatures almost as great a threat as some of the psychically attuned aliens."


Human personalities (characters) have a 5% chance of developing psychic powers in the RT rules. Inquisitors had a 50% chance, and psychic Inquisitors have undergone the Soul Binding in the same manner as Astropaths to be protected.

This is all from before the big chaos re-write, back when the Emperor was simply the first, most powerful, psyker and simply got too old after thousands of years so built the Golden Throne so he could continue to protect humanity as it emerged as a psychic race. Also before the 'four gods' emerged, where there were just random warp beasts that would attack you, rather than a great pantheon of evil.


As for warp engines, they don't draw on the warp, merely open a gateway into the warp through 'mundane' means. Gellar Fields are necessary to protect the vessel from the warp energies and intrusion from warp besties. A psyker draws power from the warp, tapping into the energies the Gellar Field cuts off from a spaceship.

It's like the warp is crocodile infested waters: you can go across them in a boat, the currents carrying you away, and will be fine so long as your boat doesn't spring a leak. Also some of the crocodiles are smart enough to know that if they can bust into your boat they will drift around for a while sure, but they may end up washed up on shore or someone with a working boat may come alongside to see what's wrong.

But if you're standing on the bank and need to drink from the water you better be strong enough to fight off any crocs who like th eidea of an easy meal wandering into their territory.

[Winterwind]

Lexicanum says that at least the Navigator's talents are encoded in their genes. So, just assuming both blankness and being a psyker were genetically determined, what would you get if you bred a psyker and a blank? A normal person? (That is, if the process doesn't kill the psyker). Knowing my Warhammer 40K, it'll be a nameless horror, but just think about it....Unless something excessively GRIMDARK-y happens, probably either a psyker or a blank, depending on which genes prevail.

And it's pretty much stated it's indeed in the genetics - psykers are mutants, after all, and blanks have been created by the Necrons introducing the Pariah gene into the human genome.
The latter also neatly explains what the thing that "goes horribly wrong" when somebody tried to breed blanks would be. :smallamused:

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[Platinius]

It's not like "You're a blank? Sorry, you're not good enough for us to use, go back home" They're like "You're a blank! How do you feel about constant danger and being used as a weapon against chaos cultists. Well it dosn't matter because we're the inquisition, and we want you"

I'm ready to believe that blanks were usully bullied as children and felt like outsiders all their life (many likely commit suicide) and the only person that ever loved them was their mother (if at all). And then somebody comes along, somebody important (like an Inquisitor), and says "You are very special, I need you" wouldn't you go with him\her simply because you are so happy that somebody noticed and didn't think "get lost!"? No, an Inquisitor hardly needs to force a blank to come with him.

[Selrahc]

Anyone here have the new Rogue Trader? The new 40k roleplay corebook in the same series as Dark Heresy?

I imagine that would be filled with useful fluff titbits on all sorts of topics. I would have bought it myself, but it's £40 for one book, and that is hard to justify if I'm probably not going to run a campaign.

[Lycan 01]

I'm a bit unsure about the new Rogue Trader game. Is it a completely different system? Or just a TON of new information, compatible with Dark Heresy? :smallconfused:

I'm sure it'd be fun, but I don't see the point of buying Dark Heresy with a different color scheme and character list. :smalltongue: Plus, I never anybody to play Dark Heresy with these days... :smallfrown:

[Myshlaevsky]

Anyone here have the new Rogue Trader? The new 40k roleplay corebook in the same series as Dark Heresy?

I imagine that would be filled with useful fluff titbits on all sorts of topics. I would have bought it myself, but it's £40 for one book, and that is hard to justify if I'm probably not going to run a campaign.

That was actually what I meant when I asked for information from Rogue Trader. I'll certainly buy it when I have money, but that might not be for a while.


I'm a bit unsure about the new Rogue Trader game. Is it a completely different system? Or just a TON of new information, compatible with Dark Heresy?

I'm sure it'd be fun, but I don't see the point of buying Dark Heresy with a different color scheme and character list. Plus, I never anybody to play Dark Heresy with these days...

My understanding is it's similar in rules with a heavily different theme. I imagine you could convert from one to the other without too much bother. I don't remember where I pulled this from, but I think a RT character is roughly equivalent to maybe a... rank 3 or 4 DH character? They seem to come with strong unique abilities though.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yep, got Rogue Trader (still discounted on Amazon, in fact). It's pretty cool. Not as good as Dark Heresy out of the box, but possibly better with a few house rules and an imaginative GM.


My understanding is it's similar in rules with a heavily different theme. I imagine you could convert from one to the other without too much bother. I don't remember where I pulled this from, but I think a RT character is roughly equivalent to maybe a... rank 3 or 4 DH character? They seem to come with strong unique abilities though.

5,000 XP of DH = rank 1 Rogue Trader character. And yeah, they're pretty different to DH characters - origin paths are nice, and the psychic systems been overhauled to its benefit, I think. The starting adventure is terrible, but who plays them ...

... yeah, I'd recommend it. It's not that much more expensive than one of the Dark Heresy setting books, and certainly has more stuff in them, if you were just considering getting one of them.

[Cheesegear]

Okydoke, as previously explained like a bajillion times the psyker:Blank ratio is about the same as the psyker:human ratio.

Secondly, if that were the case, Blanks are hard to find. They usually end up gravitating towards the bottom of society where no-one notices - or cares about - them due to whatever personality quirk they happen to manifest as a result of their being Blank.
The Black Ships find psykers because some little kid lights a house on fire. Or some guy has visions. And it gets reported to the authorities (the Arbiters) who have the correct contacts to get in touch with whoever controls the Black Ships. The BSs don't just rock up to a planet and say "We're here to test your populace for psykers!"

And, then of course there's all the psykers who go unchecked and get whispered to by Chaos entities. And when that happens, the Arbiters start running out of gum...

Plus, how would a shipload of Blanks affect a Navigator trying to do his thing? And, selectively breeding Blanks is a Bad Idea. The C'Tan want (need?) to close the Warp. Humans as the most...Pestulant (?) race in the galaxy, would spread the Pariah gene throughout the galaxy almost completely. The C'Tan want humans to start getting the Pariah gene. And doing what the C'Tan want can never be good...

It says in Disciples of the Dark Gods (a sourcebook for DH), that a psyker can't use Telekinesis and smash a Blank against a rock 'til his brains pop out (I'm elaborating). But, the psyker can use Telekinesis to smash the rock into the Blank.

Cherubael also seemed to be able to shoot lighting at Bequin. Since lightning is a physical attack, albeit generated psychically. Like a D&D Fireball spell. Once it's summoned, it's a real thing. But, trying to generate lightning whilst standing next to Bequin would've been near-impossible. In fact, I think he tried it...
It should also be noted that Cherubael was in a host at the time, and had a tangible hold on the Materium. As well as being a particularly strong daemon. Able to melt gold Aquillas with his bare hands. Which most daemons are hardly even supposed to be able look at. Let alone touch. Let alone hold one and rend it molten.

Maybe he couldn't see where Bequin was? But, if that's the case, I'm sure he was intelligent enough to aim where he clearly knows she is.
"Oh...There's a...Dead spot over next to Eisenhorn. I think I'll shoot the spot with lightning...Let's see how that pans out..."


I'm a bit unsure about the new Rogue Trader game. Is it a completely different system? Or just a TON of new information, compatible with Dark Heresy? :smallconfused:

It's the same system. With a rather huge rewrite. Rather than hanging around an Inquisitor as in Dark Heresy; You hang around with your best friend and buddy the Rogue Trader. The rules between DH and RT are directly compatible too.

Think of it as a new Sourcebook...That also functions as it's own Rulebook. I think it's a lot more suited to the Players' mindset, as it focuses on exploration and finding new stuff. TON of information indeed.

[Myshlaevsky]

Plus, how would a shipload of Blanks affect a Navigator trying to do his thing? And, selectively breeding Blanks is a Bad Idea. The C'Tan want (need?) to close the Warp. Humans as the most...Pestulant (?) race in the galaxy, would spread the Pariah gene throughout the galaxy almost completely. The C'Tan want humans to start getting the Pariah gene. And doing what the C'Tan want can never be good...

IMO this has been left sort of vague, because there's short fluff piece which reveals ultimate destruction (admittedly, for the Eldar) unless the Culexus temple remains in existance. I don't think the Pariah gene is working as intended - or rather, I think there's a payoff in it for factions other than the Necrontyr.


Cherubael also seemed to be able to shoot lighting at Bequin (lightning is a physical attack, albeit generated psychically. Like a D&D Fireball spell. Once it's summoned, it's a real thing). It should also be noted that Cherubael was in a host at the time, and had a tangible hold on the Materium. As well as being a particularly strong daemon. Able to melt gold Aquillas with his bare hands.

Don't really like this one. My understanding is that directly targeting a blank causes the attack to just fizzle out. That 'dark spot' should also be the blank's field, wherein all psychic powers are not going to work well. I mean, a WH40K fireball is a psychic attack, why would lightning not be? I suppose if natural lightning was aggravated into existence with telekinesis, but still...

[BRC]

IMO this has been left sort of vague, because there's short fluff piece which reveals ultimate destruction (admittedly, for the Eldar) unless the Culexus temple remains in existance. I don't think the Pariah gene is working as intended - or rather, I think there's a payoff in it for factions other than the Necrontyr.



Don't really like this one. My understanding is that directly targeting a blank causes the attack to just fizzle out. That 'dark spot' should also be the blank's field, wherein all psychic powers are not going to work well. I mean, a WH40K fireball is a psychic attack, why would lightning not be? I suppose if natural lightning was aggravated into existence with telekinesis, but still...

It might depend on the type of attack, and maybe the type of blank.

Jurgen seems to project a considerable Dead Zone around himself that shuts off Psykers, disrupts the Genestealer hive-mind (but not the Tyranid one), and shuts off a warp artifact thingy. His touch makes a Genestealer freak out and kills a demon. But nobody has tried to use sorcery on him yet.
Frauka spends most of his time under the effects of a limiter, but also seems to project a similar Field.
It's possible that Bequin may be a weaker sort of Blank, with a small enough Field that, while the lightning dosn't hit her, it gets close enough to still deal damage, or that the lightning was caused by sorcery but not sorcerous in itself.

[Selrahc]

IMO this has been left sort of vague, because there's short fluff piece which reveals ultimate destruction (admittedly, for the Eldar) unless the Culexus temple remains in existance. I don't think the Pariah gene is working as intended - or rather, I think there's a payoff in it for factions other than the Necrontyr.

Honestly I think that was a vague fluff piece. If the Eldar destroyed one of the Imperiums most valuable areas of black ops technology I would expect them to face heavy reprisals. If they uprooted one of the Necrons greatest plans I'd expect a massive retaliation. The combined wrath of the Imperium and the Necrons could break the Eldar.

[Myshlaevsky]

Honestly I think that was a vague fluff piece. If the Eldar destroyed one of the Imperiums most valuable areas of black ops technology I would expect them to face heavy reprisals. If they uprooted one of the Necrons greatest plans I'd expect a massive retaliation. The combined wrath of the Imperium and the Necrons could break the Eldar.

Well, yeah. Still, leave me with my crazy theories man! :smalltongue:


It might depend on the type of attack, and maybe the type of blank.

Jurgen seems to project a considerable Dead Zone around himself that shuts off Psykers, disrupts the Genestealer hive-mind (but not the Tyranid one), and shuts off a warp artifact thingy. His touch makes a Genestealer freak out and kills a demon. But nobody has tried to use sorcery on him yet.
Frauka spends most of his time under the effects of a limiter, but also seems to project a similar Field.
It's possible that Bequin may be a weaker sort of Blank, with a small enough Field that, while the lightning dosn't hit her, it gets close enough to still deal damage, or that the lightning was caused by sorcery but not sorcerous in itself.

I hadn't really considered that sorcery might follow different rules. It's supposed to be distinct from 'normal' psychic powers so it might well do. If I'm right, you don't need psychic talent at all to be a sorcerer but it still uses the same warp channeling system.

[Cheesegear]

It [sorcery] is supposed to be distinct from 'normal' psychic powers so it might well do. If I'm right, you don't need psychic talent at all to be a sorcerer but it still uses the same warp channeling system.

All true. Daemons use sorcery now that I think about it. Everything makes sense now.

The fact remains that Cherubael shot lightning at Alizabeth and Gregor. And it worked. And I edited my above post to make it clearer, which you probably missed while you were writing your post.

Either
a) Generating the lightning was a psychic event. But, once said lightning exists, it's real and tangible and not psychic at all. And not affected by psi-shields, whatever form they take. Or,
b) Daemons use sorcery. And the 'Rule of Blank' doesn't apply.

Pick your favourite. Or both.

[Myshlaevsky]

All true. Daemons use sorcery now that I think about it. Everything makes sense now.

The fact remains that Cherubael shot lightning at Alizabeth and Gregor. And it worked. And I edited my above post to make it clearer, which you probably missed while you were writing your post.

Either
a) Generating the lightning was a psychic event. But, once said lightning exists, it's real and tangible and not psychic at all. And not affected by psi-shields, whatever form they take. Or,
b) Daemons use sorcery. And the 'Rule of Blank' doesn't apply.

Pick your favourite. Or both.

The only difficulty I have with it is that, although I don't have my Inquisitor book to hand, I'm pretty sure a blank imposes a negative penalty on trying to shoot lightning at someone within that ruleset. It's not really a point that I should debate further because I can accept both of your points, the inadequacies of a game ruleset and the fact black library can often diverge from canon. So my personal conclusion on it could be anywhere.

[Lycan 01]

What? No, I'm pretty sure Blanks affect Daemons, too.

Spoilers for Cain's Last Stand.
As I recall, Cain ended up fighting with a Daemon without Jurgen present. It wasn't going to well for Cain, until Jurgen entered the room. The Daemon, IIRC, reacted to his presence. But it definitely became weaker, and it lost the ability to shrug off/regenerate its injuries. Cain quickly won with Jurgen present, while he almost died when he wasn't there.

So, even though Daemons aren't Psykers, they're affected by Blanks. And since Daemons aren't Psykers, that means Blanks don't affect just Psykers - they affect all Warp-related things. Ergo, Sorcery would also be cancelled by Blanks, since it involves tapping into the Warp.

Right? :smallconfused: