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JellyPooga
2009-10-13, 03:34 PM
I'm running a game (starting monday) and I've said that I want the players to use the Elite Array (15,14,13,12,10 and 8) for their Ability Scores.

What are the implications RE: character builds and power levels of doing this? Does this benefit the "big three" more than it does lower tier classes or vice versa?

SurlySeraph
2009-10-13, 03:43 PM
This benefits the lower tier classes more than the big three, since the big three rely on having really high scores in a single stat. This'll make things a bit easier for more MAD classes like the paladins and monks, though the big three will probably still be dominant.

You can expect character builds to be somewhat less powerful, but I don't think it'll make a huge difference overall.

Kylarra
2009-10-13, 03:50 PM
This benefits the lower tier classes more than the big three, since the big three rely on having really high scores in a single stat. This'll make things a bit easier for more MAD classes like the paladins and monks, though the big three will probably still be dominant.

You can expect character builds to be somewhat less powerful, but I don't think it'll make a huge difference overall.I'd go the other way around. The big 3 and teh rest of your high tier SAD casters are fine, albeit slightly less powerful. The ones in trouble are the ones that need more 13s spread around to qualify for feats etc.

tyckspoon
2009-10-13, 04:01 PM
This'll make things a bit easier for more MAD classes like the paladins and monks, though the big three will probably still be dominant.


Disagree. The Elite Array is actually much too low for anything that is truly MAD. The Monk, for example, is looking at Str (damage + to-hit), Con (HP and general survivability), Dex (AC, Init, skill bonuses), and Wis (Monk special abilities.) Elite Array allows two of those to be relevantly high and everything else to be not especially useful. Ideally, all would be at least 14 and preferably 16. Similarly, basic Paladin arrangement would probably have 15/14 into Str and Con, as a Fighter would. 13 Cha really isn't high enough to get any particular use out of the Cha-dependent features of the Paladin (+1 to hit with Smite! +1 to saves! Lay on Hands healing equal to paladin class level! yay.) Also Wisdom, if you take enough Paladin to care about the spellcasting, but I would normally want to PrC out before that was an issue anyway.

The spellcasters and simpler classes, on the other hand, still do fine with 15 into their primary stat and 14 into Con. They do what they do effectively enough already; having higher stats in other stuff is mostly just side benefits for them, they don't need it to make basic class features usable.

deuxhero
2009-10-13, 04:03 PM
Isn't the elite array intended for NPCs when the DM doesn't have the time to roll/point buy?

Starbuck_II
2009-10-13, 04:04 PM
Rogue, Druid (Pre-errata/post-errata), Barb, Wizard, Cleric, and Bard are pretty decent in elite.

Fighter, Monk, Pally, Ranger kinda want better.

Tavar
2009-10-13, 04:08 PM
Warlocks do pretty much as well as always. Incarnum might also be okay. As others have said, MAD classes are hosed, though. They rely on haveing mulitple stats in at least the 15-16 range, which this doesn't give. Full casters continue to be awesome, especially if they focus on Buff/non-save control.

Eldariel
2009-10-13, 04:14 PM
It does mean Save-or-X spells become much worse and buff & no-save spells like Haste, Solid Fog, Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement & al. become much better. It also means every class pretty much has only one rational way of putting the scores, and almost every class has to settle for either under 14 Dex or Con (outside Dex-focused classes).

Overall, especially on low levels, single-stat focus is de-emphasized, and classes that require multiple high stats (like Paladin, Monk, etc.) utterly suck. It also pretty much forces increasing single stat with all level-up points to reach good numbers on high levels.


It really doesn't do much outside weakening SoDs and warrior-types, and heavily favoring two-attribute classes. Also, racial bonuses are somewhat better since now they're pretty much the only way to get high primary stats.

This does something to improve the balance of Humans vs. non-Humans. Of course, penalties in critical stats like Con and Dex are worse than ever; Elf can never have an acceptable Con for most classes (14) under Elite Array, for example. But yeah, e.g. Dwarf benefits greatly of Elite Array as you get 15 in your primary stat and 16 Con.

JellyPooga
2009-10-13, 04:17 PM
OK, what happens when you throw Gestalt builds into the mix with it...how does that shake things up?

Tavar
2009-10-13, 04:21 PM
OK, what happens when you throw Gestalt builds into the mix with it...how does that shake things up?

It really resticts the number of viable choices. Even with stuff like 32 point buy, alot of combinations lead to way too much MAD. Since MAD is already a problem, most classes will probably take levels either in classes that have matching attributes(Druid/Monk), Complimentary ones, or none(Warlock/Anything).

Blackfang108
2009-10-13, 04:22 PM
Isn't the elite array intended for NPCs when the DM doesn't have the time to roll/point buy?

It's more for making stronger mooks. Most (if not all) monsters in the various MMs use 11,11,11,10,10,10 as the base array before racials and any level-bumps/equipment increases.

Changing that to the Elite array makes the creature a little tougher of a fight.

Person_Man
2009-10-13, 04:24 PM
My opinion is that any point buy system benefits SAD classes. Casters, in particular, can use No Save magic and Summons to huge effect, as long as their primary casting attribute is high enough to use their spells.

Whereas melee classes require high Str (to hit/damage) respectable Dex (to fuel AoO, the real power source of most melee builds) respectable Con (as they lack most magical protections) Int 13 (not always, but Combat Expertise is often a pre-req) and sometimes respectable Wis (for many half casters) and high Cha (Paladin, Crusader, Hexblade, Blackguard, etc) though many builds can get away with dumping Wis and/or Cha.

Skill Monkeys are at an even bigger disadvantage. They basically need respectable Str (to avoid encumbrance penalties) high Dex (to-hit, and to compensate for poor armor) and high Con (to compensate for poor hit die) and respectable Int. Plus they usually can't completely dump Wis or Cha (too many Skills linked to them, such as Spot and UMD). And they need to sink feats into things like Weapon Finesse and TWF, whereas melee builds get a much better return on investment with Power Attack et al.

I personally give PCs 85ish "true" points (not scaled so that higher stats cost more) that they can allot however they like between 18 and 5 before racial adjustments. For example, a Human Paladin might have Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 12 Cha 18. I also let PCs know that if they dump a stat (for example, a Barbarian might set Cha to 5 and then be a race with a Cha penalty) that they must roleplay that stat. And I make frequent use of stat damage and penalties (Poison, Disease, magic, etc) regardless of how allocate their scores.

Of course, all of this can be ignored if you're playing a mid-high level campaign with free range of splat books. A lot can be accomplished with X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)abilities (though notably, melee builds and Skill Monkeys still require greater investment then casters to accomplish parity).

Temet Nosce
2009-10-13, 04:45 PM
I'm running a game (starting monday) and I've said that I want the players to use the Elite Array (15,14,13,12,10 and 8) for their Ability Scores.

What are the implications RE: character builds and power levels of doing this? Does this benefit the "big three" more than it does lower tier classes or vice versa?

Casters will just switch their focus away from spells with saves (common anyways), although this will hurt them slightly. On the other hand, it's gonna do a real number on weaker classes since many of them are MAD. Overall, everyone will be slightly weaker and some non casters will be substantially weaker. I personally wouldn't recommend it, unless you're going for a game where the PCs are meant to feel weak.

JellyPooga
2009-10-13, 04:46 PM
I personally wouldn't recommend it, unless you're going for a game where the PCs are meant to feel weak.

It's a horror game...nuff said :smallwink:

Temet Nosce
2009-10-13, 04:48 PM
It's a horror game...nuff said :smallwink:

Ah, fair enough. Although I hope you warned your PCs to run from things in advance (many horror games I've been involved in using 3.5 had that problem). Good luck on traumatizing your vict... players, I meant to say players.

Hat-Trick
2009-10-13, 04:50 PM
oh, then it's okay. They'll all die mysteriously anyway, maybe you can allow them better stats later so they can play the people who survive.

JellyPooga
2009-10-13, 04:55 PM
oh, then it's okay. They'll all die mysteriously anyway, maybe you can allow them better stats later so they can play the people who survive.

pshh! you're not supposed to survive horror...that's the point. If you do, it's because your either a) in a hollywood horror movie or b) really ingenious (yes, these are mutually exclusive). For this game I've bene looking for players of the latter variety and I'm hoping that they don't do anything stupid...they know it's going to be a horror game, so I'm hoping for the best.

jiriku
2009-10-13, 05:00 PM
I have DM'd several campaigns in which characters were built with 25-point buy or the elite array. It's no big thing. Everything is a little less wild and crazy, but really after a while you won't notice the difference. People's bonuses are just lower, and depending on how they prioritize stats, they may have fewer options.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 05:08 PM
I'd go the other way around. The big 3 and teh rest of your high tier SAD casters are fine, albeit slightly less powerful. The ones in trouble are the ones that need more 13s spread around to qualify for feats etc.

This is correct.

If you bump all the lower skills up to a 13, then yeah, it helps out MAD players a lot.

Also, using odd numbers for all the stats helps out MAD players more than SAD. SAD will typically be pumping all their upgrades at one skill, while the MAD types will be happily getting a +1 modifier with every single new skill point.

TelemontTanthul
2009-10-13, 05:25 PM
Do a 27 point-buy.

Gives average stats, and no excuses for low Wis scores for your goofy players.

We once had a Ninja Kenku (Bird thing) that had like 4 17's and a THREE in wisdom.

Stupid bird...

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-13, 05:39 PM
It really resticts the number of viable choices. Even with stuff like 32 point buy, alot of combinations lead to way too much MAD. Since MAD is already a problem, most classes will probably take levels either in classes that have matching attributes(Druid/Monk), Complimentary ones, or none(Warlock/Anything).

This is the reason I do 43 PB with Gestalt (or any game for that matter). Ends up being better for the noncasters, and the Full casters are less inclined to use Polymorph to alter their stats (they may still do so, but they aren't as likely from personal experiences).


There's a better version of the Elite Array in the DMG that goes 16/16/14/14/12/12, IIRC. It may be in the DMG2. Use that instead of the normal Elite Array. Your casters won't complain, and your MAD characters will be fine for most purposes.

JellyPooga
2009-10-13, 05:51 PM
This is the reason I do 43 PB with Gestalt (or any game for that matter). Ends up being better for the noncasters, and the Full casters are less inclined to use Polymorph to alter their stats (they may still do so, but they aren't as likely from personal experiences).


There's a better version of the Elite Array in the DMG that goes 16/16/14/14/12/12, IIRC. It may be in the DMG2. Use that instead of the normal Elite Array. Your casters won't complain, and your MAD characters will be fine for most purposes.

43 Point Buy!?! Wow...I'm not a fan of power-creep at the best of times, but thats approaching double the recommended PB in the DMG!

I'm not a fan of high stats across the board...I'd rather see characters with weaknesses in my game than uber-heroes-of-doom-and-destruction. Using that 16,16,14,14,12,12 array just seems a bit pointless to me...it might help the MAD characters somewhat, but what's their weakness? That character, barring unusual racial stat modifiers, is at least above average at everything. I don't, personally, see the point of playing with a stat array like that. Sure the PCs are supposed to be somewhat exceptional, but that's also partially accounted for by the fact that they have Character Class Levels instead of NPC Class Levels.

With the Elite Array, as I see it, the players can excell in one or two areas, still have a little diversity with their above averages, but they have on weakness (maybe two). It forces them to actually think about their character, who they are and where they want to take them. Are they going to be a brute fighter with Str 15, Con 14, Dex 13, Power Attack and Cleave, or are they going to be a more subtle combatant with Dex 15, Str 14, Int 13, Weapon Finesse, TWF and Combat Expertise?

Temet Nosce
2009-10-13, 06:40 PM
43 Point Buy!?! Wow...I'm not a fan of power-creep at the best of times, but thats approaching double the recommended PB in the DMG!

I'm not a fan of high stats across the board...I'd rather see characters with weaknesses in my game than uber-heroes-of-doom-and-destruction. Using that 16,16,14,14,12,12 array just seems a bit pointless to me...it might help the MAD characters somewhat, but what's their weakness? That character, barring unusual racial stat modifiers, is at least above average at everything. I don't, personally, see the point of playing with a stat array like that. Sure the PCs are supposed to be somewhat exceptional, but that's also partially accounted for by the fact that they have Character Class Levels instead of NPC Class Levels.

With the Elite Array, as I see it, the players can excell in one or two areas, still have a little diversity with their above averages, but they have on weakness (maybe two). It forces them to actually think about their character, who they are and where they want to take them. Are they going to be a brute fighter with Str 15, Con 14, Dex 13, Power Attack and Cleave, or are they going to be a more subtle combatant with Dex 15, Str 14, Int 13, Weapon Finesse, TWF and Combat Expertise?

No, they can be slightly below average in one area for someone focused on it, and significantly below average in the others with a single tiny weakness in one area. I can see the point of making them feel less than effective in a horror game, but they're certainly not up to snuff in comparison with typical characters (I do however, presume competency for both NPCs and PCs, which means pretty much a guaranteed 18, which puts the elite array to shame). Even in a 25 point buy (something that I have not played as far as I can recall), odds are good I'd go for the 18 with a SAD and at least a 16 in something even for non SAD characters. This is also before we consider that Elite Array is a badly designed 25 PB, in comparison with average rolling (using the 4d6 method) rounding to a 29 PB if I recall right.

Still, I do agree about weaknesses, albeit 8 is only a slight weakness. I like my characters (and my players characters) to have at least one weakness, preferably a serious one (6 or lower). Something that defines them as much as their strengths. I've actually been experimenting with various generation methods for that in fact.

My next game will be taking the stats 4, 6, 12, 14, 14, 16 and having each player roll 1d6 six times adding the results in order. However, I have previously used 6d6 with opportunities to get up to 22 in scores. The most common PB I;ve encountered (although I rarely use PB for my own games) is around 34-36.

Does the elite array have its place? Sure, it's decent at portraying people who are mediocre at what they do and will probably help set the mood in your horror game. It's not a good representation of a PC in a typical game however, nor of an NPC proficient at their class.

ericgrau
2009-10-13, 06:40 PM
The elite array is about the same as average rolled stats, so not much should change from that. You won't have as much random variation, but on average things should be the same. Compared to a point buy that focuses on one stat or compared to high stats then, well, the PCs have lower stats.

Anyhoo give it a shot and don't worry about it. It's just a normal D&D game, that's all. Remind players that commoners have 10's and 11's, NPC warriors and adepts have a 13 for their high stat IIRC, and that the PCs are still quite extraordinary.

Oh, and here's a tripping fighter: Str 15, con 14, int 13, dex 12, wis 10, cha 8. Give him full plate and he's fine. Of course he'd like higher stats but so would the wizard.

JellyPooga
2009-10-13, 06:59 PM
No, they can be slightly below average in one area for someone focused on it, and significantly below average in the others with a single tiny weakness in one area.

*snip*

Does the elite array have its place? Sure, it's decent at portraying people who are mediocre at what they do and will probably help set the mood in your horror game. It's not a good representation of a PC in a typical game however, nor of an NPC proficient at their class.

I find it astonishing that you think that the Elite array represents someone mediocre and that you think a 15 is slightly below average for someone focused on it.

The stat range of 3 to 18 is supposed to represent the full gamut of Human capability, from crippled to the peak of human limits. To think that an 18 is required to be good at what you do is like saying you have to be an olympic weightlifter to be a half-decent bricky. A score of 10 or 11 is average. A 15 stat is noticable in a crowd; someone with Str 15 is noticably muscular and you'd probably assume that he's either a body-builder or does manual labour for a living. Hell, someone with Str 20 is as strong as a 10ft tall Ogre! To say that you need nearly be as strong as that to merely be "good" at your Str-based profession...yeah, I've said it already.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-13, 07:02 PM
In my experience you need a 16 to really stand out. Because you're first level and all. Elite array may technically even out to 4d6 drop lowest 1; but the rolling tends to give you a higher highest stat.

Is 15 slightly below average? Hells no. Is 15 slightly below average for a full-time, successful adventurer whose primary merit is strength? Slightly, yes.

Tavar
2009-10-13, 07:03 PM
For MAD classes, the weakness is usually that they're not that good. Why punish them twice.

And for gestalt, it's easy to need every stat. Just do anything with Paladin and you need at least 4, and it's easy to want decent scores in 5 or 6. If it's gestalt and elite array, you're basically say"don't play any mad classes, cause you'll suck". My favorite gestalt character is a Paladin/Truenamer(using Fax's and Kellus's fixes) and the only stat he doesn't need around at least 14 is Dexterity. Thus, I can only play him in higher point games.

Akal Saris
2009-10-13, 07:08 PM
Jelly, I don't think that 18's accurately reflect the pinnacle of human achievements in a "stat", or else every 4th level wizard would be smarter than Einstein.

The elite array is elite for monsters, but PCs in 3.5 are generally super-elite, if that makes sense.

For PCs, the elite array is pretty poor - doesn't the DMG even state this?

Deepblue706
2009-10-13, 07:11 PM
For PCs, the elite array is pretty poor - doesn't the DMG even state this?

I don't know about that, but I do recall it saying it's generally reserved for "Important NPCs".

I believe the suggested method for 3.x is actually 4d6-best-3, which will likely give you something just a touch higher. 28 is probably closer to the intended power of PCs, which may look like:

16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-13, 07:15 PM
4d6 best 3 averages to 28 point buy. However, 28 point buy will be distributed in the most optimal way (unlike 4d6b3), leading to the suggestion of 25 point buy for "standard" point buy.

I usually go for 28/32 point buy, then for 4d6 drop 1, then for 25. Elite Array is mediocre at levels 1-3 and irritating after level 8. Higher point buys I tend to avoid because I like being vulnerable to ability damage. :P

Theoretically, yes, 15 should be a nice score for a PC based on human averages. However, due to the odd-even thing they have going on, 15 and 14 are the same - and 14 is much more mediocre than 15 statistically (and in actual game mechanics, they're both mediocre for an adventurer)

JellyPooga
2009-10-13, 07:16 PM
Jelly, I don't think that 18's accurately reflect the pinnacle of human achievements in a "stat", or else every 4th level wizard would be smarter than Einstein.

The elite array is elite for monsters, but PCs in 3.5 are generally super-elite, if that makes sense.

For PCs, the elite array is pretty poor - doesn't the DMG even state this?

When you get above 1st level and are dealing with increased ability scores (whether from your every-4th-level bonus or items), yes, I agree that the boundaries of what a stat represents become a little more fluid. I'm thinking mostly of 1st level though (your Base scores, if you will).

Hat-Trick
2009-10-13, 07:20 PM
I don't get the point of a statistical WEAKNESS. If a commoner has average 10s 11s, then why does the adventurer have a stat low enough to cripple him in an area? These are people who put their lives on the line every single day, for the average party. The only thing any of them is going to be weak in is charisma (unless they're the face or cast off of it or something) or strength for casters.

Sure, one may be a complete drunk, or a problem gambler, maybe one can't seem to turn down any request. Those are weaknesses as well. For their stats to be lower than ten means there's something wrong with them. They can't lift a feather, they trip over their own feet, they catch pneumonia constantly, they can't think themselves out of a paper bag, they don't hear the run away cart heading right for them, or they can't hold their tongue. Many of those would get you killed doing what adventurers do daily.

Wizards are allowed a few statistic weaknesses, they bend the rules of the universe to their will, but a fighter needs almost every stat at least at ten.

Temet Nosce
2009-10-13, 07:21 PM
I find it astonishing that you think that the Elite array represents someone mediocre and that you think a 15 is slightly below average for someone focused on it.

The stat range of 3 to 18 is supposed to represent the full gamut of Human capability, from crippled to the peak of human limits. To think that an 18 is required to be good at what you do is like saying you have to be an olympic weightlifter to be a half-decent bricky. A score of 10 or 11 is average. A 15 stat is noticable in a crowd; someone with Str 15 is noticably muscular and you'd probably assume that he's either a body-builder or does manual labour for a living. Hell, someone with Str 20 is as strong as a 10ft tall Ogre! To say that you need nearly be as strong as that to merely be "good" at your Str-based profession...yeah, I've said it already.

Elite array is misnamed, it isn't even implied that it's actually elite in the description (it's supposed to produce "decent" scores) and as mentioned is well below average for rolling.

Is someone going to have a mediocre score in what they focus on? It's possible but incredibly unlikely, particularly given the odds of having a high score are actually relatively high in comparison with the number of characters with relevant class levels in a setting versus commoners. Further however, barring using the elite array (or some other method of forcing them not to) someone is simply going to have a high score in their relevant ability.

Could someone deliberately enter a class they're bad at? Yes, but most of the members of that class aren't going to be.

ericgrau
2009-10-13, 07:22 PM
In my experience you need a 16 to really stand out. Because you're first level and all. Elite array may technically even out to 4d6 drop lowest 1; but the rolling tends to give you a higher highest stat.

Is 15 slightly below average? Hells no. Is 15 slightly below average for a full-time, successful adventurer whose primary merit is strength? Slightly, yes.

Nope, I figured it out quite carefully before and rolled stats are close to the elite array. Not just in average but also the high and low. IIRC the high stat for an average set of rolls was 15.X, which barely rounded to 16. So the elite array might be a hair lower at worst. As for the DMG view on it, it's there to quickly make NPCs that are just as prominent as the PCs without a bunch of rolls. Those rolls might get lucky or unlucky anyway. If you are playing with high stats, you better darn well bump up the elite array to match when making the especially horrible opponents for the PCs. If you want to make regular opponents but with some stat variation, there's a non-elite array with a high of 13.

Matthew
2009-10-13, 07:29 PM
Elite array is misnamed, it isn't even implied that it's actually elite in the description (it's supposed to produce "decent" scores) and as mentioned is well below average for rolling.

Actually, elite array is what the game was balanced against when they tried to establish challenge ratings and the like; just about all the iconic characters use elite array and the DMG is pretty clear that it is the default expectation.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 07:51 PM
If it's the default expectation, why isn't it the default method used to set points?

Aright, let's look at this...average roll on a D6 is 3.5. Thus, the average roll on 3d6 would be a 10.5. 4d6 drop lowest is harder to calculate, but clearly significantly superior.

The most common result is a 13, but the distribution above and below are roughly equal, with lower having a slightly higher bias on averages due to more range. This isn't a significant concern if you're using the "reroll if you get a really crappy character" rule.

Thus, we're parked at about a 13 as a base stat. Not only does this make a mockery of the 10 = average issue, it means we're sitting at about a 25 pt buy if every roll is dead average. Realistically, the distribution curve is flat enough that you'll get solidly higher and lower. The lower rolls don't change the point buy. The higher rolls can.

I see a 27-29 point buy as representative of standard rolling as a result. You can certainly go higher or lower if you choose, but the elite array is definitely not elite, and a 15 as your highest stat, presumably in your area of specialization, is really not unusual at all.

The odds of any single roll being 15+ is approximately 23.2%. Not bad. 16+ puts us at only 13.1% odds, but with six total rolls, it should happen 57% of the time, if my math is right.

After racial modifiers, that 16 is almost certainly an 18, so yeah....expecting an 18 in a primary stat isn't that unreasonable.

Matthew
2009-10-13, 08:24 PM
If it's the default expectation, why isn't it the default method used to set points?

Aright, let's look at this...average roll on a D6 is 3.5. Thus, the average roll on 3d6 would be a 10.5. 4d6 drop lowest is harder to calculate, but clearly significantly superior.

The most common result is a 13, but the distribution above and below are roughly equal, with lower having a slightly higher bias on averages due to more range. This isn't a significant concern if you're using the "reroll if you get a really crappy character" rule.

Thus, we're parked at about a 13 as a base stat. Not only does this make a mockery of the 10 = average issue, it means we're sitting at about a 25 pt buy if every roll is dead average. Realistically, the distribution curve is flat enough that you'll get solidly higher and lower. The lower rolls don't change the point buy. The higher rolls can.

I see a 27-29 point buy as representative of standard rolling as a result. You can certainly go higher or lower if you choose, but the elite array is definitely not elite, and a 15 as your highest stat, presumably in your area of specialization, is really not unusual at all.

The odds of any single roll being 15+ is approximately 23.2%. Not bad. 16+ puts us at only 13.1% odds, but with six total rolls, it should happen 57% of the time, if my math is right.

After racial modifiers, that 16 is almost certainly an 18, so yeah....expecting an 18 in a primary stat isn't that unreasonable.

Unfortunately, it does not really matter what the math of a 4d6 roll will get you (if you are curious, though, go here (http://axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/rpgmath/qualify/)), because you only get a reasonable spread over a long number of characters, and the bottom line is that elite array (or rather 25 point buy) was what the game was balanced against, for good or ill. A 4d6 roll will get you a slightly better character on average, but it also offers the possibility of significantly better and somewhat worse results.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 08:34 PM
The fact that they balanced the game against a different power standard than the default option for character creation is a wee bit difficult to explain, and doesn't make a lot of sense.

The DMG only says that it was the method used to generate ability score for the sample NPCs in chapter 4 of the DMG.

That's incredibly different from balancing the game around it.

Matthew
2009-10-13, 08:55 PM
The fact that they balanced the game against a different power standard than the default option for character creation is a wee bit difficult to explain, and doesn't make a lot of sense.

The DMG only says that it was the method used to generate ability score for the sample NPCs in chapter 4 of the DMG.

That's incredibly different from balancing the game around it.

The reason is what is being termed these days as "legacy D&D". 4d6, drop the lowest was Method I in AD&D/1e and the most popular method by far of character generation (or so it seems).

25 point buy is elite array (more or less), which is "standard point buy", being the standard way to generate characters. Higher point buys are for tougher campaigns with non-standard CRs. On the next page, for instance, the DMG explains that the RPGA uses 25 point buy, but Living Greyhawk uses 28 point buy because it is a bit tougher than the average campaign (which of course gets you 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15).

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 08:57 PM
You still haven't addressed the difference between a shortcut used for making NPCs in one chapter and the balance of the entire game. It's a bit of a leap from one to the other, and while yes, players may fight NPCs generated via that chapter, that isn't generally all they fight. Unless it's a very boring, tedious campaign.

Matthew
2009-10-13, 08:58 PM
You still haven't addressed the difference between a shortcut used for making NPCs in one chapter and the balance of the entire game. It's a bit of a leap from one to the other, and while yes, players may fight NPCs generated via that chapter, that isn't generally all they fight. Unless it's a very boring, tedious campaign.

Read the bit on the next page about the RPGA and character generation (I think there was a clearer statement in the 3.0 DMG, it has been a while since I looked).

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 09:02 PM
They are generated using standard point buys in the newer campaigns. In the older campaigns, nonstandard point buy is used.

So, those would be options 1 and 2. Elite array is option 3 in the list of 8 possible alternative options.

This isn't making much of a case for the idea that Elite array is what the game is balanced around, yknow.

Matthew
2009-10-13, 09:09 PM
They are generated using standard point buys in the newer campaigns. In the older campaigns, nonstandard point buy is used.

So, those would be options 1 and 2. Elite array is option 3 in the list of 8 possible alternative options.

This isn't making much of a case for the idea that Elite array is what the game is balanced around, yknow.

Yeah, because the older campaign is tougher. Elite array is just one way of applying 25 point buy; you could have a character with 8|8|8|9|15|18 if you preferred or some other combination, each of which is supposedly balanced with the other (of course, it's not in practice). If you play with higher powered characters the campaign should be tougher than a standard one [i.e. don't use standard CRs]. Not sure how much clearer it needs to be.

In the ordinary home game, it is simply assumed that the DM is familiar enough with the group to challenge them appropriately. The CR system, though, is based around a standard PC power level.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 09:14 PM
We've already covered that elite array is not equal in power to a standard point buy.

Also, a non-standard point buy can be less powerful as well as more powerful. The DMG does give an example of one more powerful campaign, yes, but it does not say that all campaigns made with non standard point buys are more powerful.

Eldariel
2009-10-13, 09:19 PM
So we can conclude that the game was balanced in a ****ty manner. Oh wait, we already knew that. In fact, I think that's what about ½ the threads on the forum are about.

Point being, I don't see the purpose of that discussion.

Matthew
2009-10-13, 09:20 PM
We've already covered that elite array is not equal in power to a standard point buy.

Of course not, but since you can generate elite array by standard point buy, that is not saying much. In fact, all it tells us is that standard point buy does not generate characters of equal ability by means of its various combinations. In short, there are better and worse ways to apply the points.



Also, a non-standard point buy can be less powerful as well as more powerful. The DMG does give an example of one more powerful campaign, yes, but it does not say that all campaigns made with non standard point buys are more powerful.

So, is your argument here that giving players more points to allocate to their attributes than the standard does or does not affect the difficulty of the campaign?



So we can conclude that the game was balanced in a ****ty manner. Oh wait, we already knew that. In fact, I think that's what about ½ the threads on the forum are about.

Point being, I don't see the purpose of that discussion.

Heh, heh. Are you implying that all feats are not equal? :smallbiggrin:

Superglucose
2009-10-13, 09:33 PM
Do not make your players use the elite array because it sucks to play a character with the elite array. I know I had a GM who INSISTED we use the elite array so one member wouldn't be "more powerful" than the other member. It didn't balance things out at all except take a lot of the fun out of the game at low levels since no one's stats were high enough to do anything.

The EA becomes less of an issue at higher level, but remember that level 1 combat is stat checks, and by forcing the fighter to have a 15 STR, you're really taking out about 1/3 of his damage and 2/5 of his attack bonus (over an 18).

Eldariel
2009-10-13, 09:34 PM
Heh, heh. Are you implying that all feats are not equal? :smallbiggrin:

Oh, heavens no! Of course Leadership is equal to Endurance! I mean, duh. One gets you a weak sidekick, one lets you run a bit longer (sometimes). And Toughness is just as good on level 20 as it's on level 1, 'cause while you of course gain more HP, there's always an equivalent chance of ending up on your last 3 points! I mean, you'd have to be a total noob to not see that! Even the playtesters thought so!

No, I'm talking about the grand imbalances inherent to combat maneuvers. I mean, honestly, in addition to dealing damage, melee characters can knock people prone or grapple them or break their weapons or disarm them?! Really? What were they thinking?! I mean, not only is this horribly imbalanced compared to spells (almost all of which deal damage or have some other effect only and almost always offer a save...or attack roll, which casters can't do with their inexistent BAB?), but it also breaks verisimilitude realism something severe! I mean, a knight knocking an opponent prone? Really? I bet you that's never happened. And it's dishonorable so the Paladin knight would fall for doing it. And yet, it's apparently "Ok" in this game. The nerve!

And the balance, oh, the balance; I mean, warriors get weapon damage and a stat to damage and various bonuses infinite times per day along with various conditions to inflict upon opponents (sure, Disarm isn't that useful vs. casters, but given that casters are nothing compared to warriors, as conclusively proven here, that doesn't really matter since there's really no reason for any character to be a caster), while casters only do one of the following with a save and only get base spell damage from damage spells, without any bonuses from anything! D&D 3.5 is broken!


WoTC really needs to playtest their products better. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go try and enable my Wizard to contribute in a party of Commoner, Fighter & Monk; I'm being overshadowed something severe and need to pull every trick out of my sizable optimization arsenal to even get one kill per encounter. Man...I mean, of course the guy spending years on mastering magic should always be better than the guy swinging a sword!

What were the playtesters thinking leaving casters so weak by comparison? I suggest all melee maneuvers should be doable with offensive spells, using the caster's primary casting stat for the opposed check and treating the opponent as Fine for comparison unless it's also a caster 'cause non-casters don't know how to resist magical energies. Much more fair.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 09:56 PM
So, is your argument here that giving players more points to allocate to their attributes than the standard does or does not affect the difficulty of the campaign?

No. Non standard point buys include less points as well as more.

Erom
2009-10-13, 11:01 PM
So... to go back to the original question a bit... it seems like the primary problems with Elite Array are:

1) it actually hurts MAD classes more than SAD
2) most players prefer slightly stronger characters

Noting that we're trying to deliberately get a low-powered array for the purposes of a horror game (or any other low-power genre), and thus ignoring (2), would one potential way to solve (1) be to use an even less optimized 25 point buy? Something like [8 11 13 13 14 14]? Obviously it nerfs everyone a lot, but does it nerf more evenly between MAD and SAD classes?

tyckspoon
2009-10-13, 11:09 PM
Noting that we're trying to deliberately get a low-powered array for the purposes of a horror game (or any other low-power genre), and thus ignoring (2), would one potential way to solve (1) be to use an even less optimized 25 point buy? Something like [8 11 13 13 14 14]? Obviously it nerfs everyone a lot, but does it nerf more evenly between MAD and SAD classes?

That particular arrangement? Not particularly, it still gives you two scores at +2, two at +1, one 0 and one negative. So, mechanically, it does almost the exact same thing as the standard Elite array. It does make it more attractive to bump your lower scores with level-up bonuses, but by the time you have enough levels for that to be relevant your base stats are usually much less important anyway (and chances are you're losing a lot of the feel you wanted in running a low-powered genre.)

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-13, 11:16 PM
43 Point Buy!?! Wow...I'm not a fan of power-creep at the best of times, but thats approaching double the recommended PB in the DMG!

Pssh...Ha! You actually listen to one of the most overpowered books in DnD? As a DM, I only reference them DMG for XP, and even then only when I can't access the SRD Encounter Calculator.


I'm not a fan of high stats across the board...I'd rather see characters with weaknesses in my game than uber-heroes-of-doom-and-destruction. Using that 16,16,14,14,12,12 array just seems a bit pointless to me...it might help the MAD characters somewhat, but what's their weakness? That character, barring unusual racial stat modifiers, is at least above average at everything.

I agree, weaknesses make for believeable characters. If I wanted beliveable, I wouldn't be playing 3.5. Even with the improved stats (which really are not as important as class features or class levels if you put a little effort forward) my players have to struggle when I apply the pressure. I have a very strong sense of system mastery, and a put it to good use. I know what my players are capable of (even my online players, many of whom I barely know) because I have universal access to their character sheets, and I have absolute control if I so feel the need. I have never had to apply that control to deal with a character's power. I am always capable of dealing with whatever my players throw at me, and I am more inclined to be amused than irritated by their caveats and gags.


I don't, personally, see the point of playing with a stat array like that. Sure the PCs are supposed to be somewhat exceptional, but that's also partially accounted for by the fact that they have Character Class Levels instead of NPC Class Levels.

As I said, the class matters more than the stats, even with that leniency. I still enforce the 18 pre-racial stat limit, so the best they can get is a 24 without LA (Con can hit that value easily, as can Strength).

And wanna know where I got that array? I took the original Elite Array, and added 2 points to every stat (the original idea was to have them use 17/16/15/14/12/10 until a player pointed out that the PB cost of this array was only 43 points).



With the Elite Array, as I see it, the players can excell in one or two areas, still have a little diversity with their above averages, but they have on weakness (maybe two). It forces them to actually think about their character, who they are and where they want to take them. Are they going to be a brute fighter with Str 15, Con 14, Dex 13, Power Attack and Cleave, or are they going to be a more subtle combatant with Dex 15, Str 14, Int 13, Weapon Finesse, TWF and Combat Expertise?

The problem is that the Elite Array as presented is horridly underpowered. Seriously, even the RPGA accepted this fact and enforces 28 PB at the minimum. The Elite Array isn't so much a limiter as it is a stranglehold on the noncasters, who have the least access to ability boosters. Why do you bother enforcing the array on full casters anyway? They're just going to take 3 and dump everything else, then pump those three as much as possible until they have access to Polymorph.

I wish Acherpwr were here to post about my Skies of Arcadia game. He'd set this straight fairly easily with his little tale of the Druid's animal companion. But he's not on hand, so I'll tell it for him.

I allowed the party Gestalt 43 PB with very few restrictions. I was even nice enough to give the weaker characters improved PB (easily allowing them to boost their stats by 6 or so and get 75% more HP every level, in the most extreme cases). The weaker they were, the more benefits I gave them to keep them relevant.

Archerpwr decided to take the middle route. He opted for a highly optimized Dragonborn Warblade//Psion. His character was top-notch, able to stand up to some of the best encounters I sent his way (for the few we got through before the game died).

Another player chose to make a Druid//Cleric. I had a rule in that game: You can take stuff like Leadership, and even design your companions yourself. But they had the Elite Array and no benefits other than PC WBL. The druid picked a Riding Dog for his animal companion. I had no problems with this, and neither did the rest of the party (Archer included).

The very first encounter showed just how powerful the PCs were. But the real kicker came in with the Druid's Dog and Archer's Warblade/Psion.

The Riding Dog was completely unbuffed, and only 2 feats were altered by the player (it had Combat Reflexes, along with prereqs). It's Int score was not higher than the amount allowed for an animal, but the rest of its stats were very good (nothing compared to the actual PCs).

The Warblade//Psion couldn't match its damage output even when he buffed up to maximum power. It wasn't because of the Stats, because Archer had the clear advantage there. It wasn't because of the Elite Array the animal companion had. It was the feat selection that made the difference.

This made me realize how much more powerful class features were than stats. By pure stats alone, the Warblade won hands-down. But the animal companion won out in actual practice, and the matter would only have gotten worse if the campaign continued (at least until Archer shifted his character into caster mode).

For the record, the Elite Array made a 4 point difference in the animal companion's stats on a per stat basis, and the damage output was because of the number of attacks it made each round (3 or more). It would have had that power even without the Elite Array (with only a few points taken off of its damage output for the lower Strength). This was the important part: it's stats barely mattered outside of its attack roll. He didn't even need to optimize that, seeing as the party had a Bard.


The Elite Array is worthless, as is most other forms of PB (they only matter to the noncasters). Casters could care less about their ability scores; as long as they have a high enough stat to cast spells and a decent HP total, they're set for life. To all DMs who take the time to read this post: Throw the noncasters a bone and never use anything less than 32 PB.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-14, 01:27 AM
For Pally, I'd likely go:

Str 13, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8 Wis 10, Cha 15

At least, under elite array. The extra +1 to hit/damage, IMO, is not as important as +1 to all saves and extra healing. Wisdom, if needed, can be boosted via level gain. Ideally, I'd PrC/ACF out of the spellcasting though. That means that level 4 and 8 stat boost can go to str and Cha, and you're left with a +4 to reflex from stat, +5 Fort, and +3 Will.

sadi
2009-10-14, 02:21 AM
So... to go back to the original question a bit... it seems like the primary problems with Elite Array are:

1) it actually hurts MAD classes more than SAD
2) most players prefer slightly stronger characters

Noting that we're trying to deliberately get a low-powered array for the purposes of a horror game (or any other low-power genre), and thus ignoring (2), would one potential way to solve (1) be to use an even less optimized 25 point buy? Something like [8 11 13 13 14 14]? Obviously it nerfs everyone a lot, but does it nerf more evenly between MAD and SAD classes?

The real question is does everyone want to play this way, or is this just something the person running thinks will be "cool"? If everyone agrees to it with no reservations, then it doesn't really matter that the "weaker" classes are going to be even "weaker" than normal. The power level/competence of the players also matters. I once played a 32 point buy game where the kid playing the sorcerer had a higher strength than dexterity or con, and his strength was 12.

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 02:56 AM
16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8

That is my favorite stat array.

JellyPooga
2009-10-14, 05:00 AM
The real question is does everyone want to play this way, or is this just something the person running thinks will be "cool"? If everyone agrees to it with no reservations, then it doesn't really matter that the "weaker" classes are going to be even "weaker" than normal. The power level/competence of the players also matters. I once played a 32 point buy game where the kid playing the sorcerer had a higher strength than dexterity or con, and his strength was 12.

The game is not a highly optimised one and I've stressed from the start that it's going to be less dependant on stats and abilities as much as it is on roleplay, decisions and character interactions. So yeah, by enforcing the use of Elite Array, I was looking for a) a way to take emphasis away from the characters' stats, b) an easy way to make stat generation 'fair' (I hate random stats) and c) potentially introduce a little balance between the classes.

From what people have said here, I fear I may have failed on the last of those.

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 05:09 AM
Casters with half as many bonus spells/day will be far less dangerous.

The most egregious transgressions will be polymorph (easy to fix) and persistent buffs (also easy to fix), since that will give casters a way to circumvent low ability scores.

For classes with very strong MAD, namely the monk, elite array will make them absolutely horrid to play. Elite array, though, will mean casters are actually going to have trouble landing touch attacks through the first half of the game, and save-or-die spells aren't going to be nearly as dangerous.

Dhavaer
2009-10-14, 05:16 AM
If you want more of a balance between SAD and MAD classes, perhaps you could use point buy and increase the cost of high ability scores? 1 point for up to 14 as normal, but 3 up to 16 and 5 up to 18.

Matthew
2009-10-14, 05:23 AM
No. Non standard point buys include less points as well as more.

That does not actually answer the question, let me rephrase it. Does using non-standard point buy change the power level of the player characters generated?



If you want more of a balance between SAD and MAD classes, perhaps you could use point buy and increase the cost of high ability scores? 1 point for up to 14 as normal, but 3 up to 16 and 5 up to 18.

Yes; the fact that some classes are more reliant on multiple higher attributes necessitates this approach, I think.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-14, 06:08 AM
Casters with half as many bonus spells/day will be far less dangerous.

The most egregious transgressions will be polymorph (easy to fix) and persistent buffs (also easy to fix), since that will give casters a way to circumvent low ability scores.

For classes with very strong MAD, namely the monk, elite array will make them absolutely horrid to play. Elite array, though, will mean casters are actually going to have trouble landing touch attacks through the first half of the game, and save-or-die spells aren't going to be nearly as dangerous.

Actually, loss of save DC is countered by lower overall saving throw bonuses from ability mods too. Wizard Int 15 is, by level 4, only -1 to the DC versus an 18 int wiz.

Conversely, a character with a 13 Con, 14 Wis, and 12 Dex will be, at the same level, -1 to -2 behind on all saves.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-14, 07:04 AM
That does not actually answer the question, let me rephrase it. Does using non-standard point buy change the power level of the player characters generated?

Yes, obviously. For some classes more than others.

Matthew
2009-10-14, 07:11 AM
Yes, obviously. For some classes more than others.

So, then, what is the problem with understanding the designation as one as standard and the other as non-standard, as being analogous to default and non-default? It seems odd that one would expect the game to be balanced to non-standard attribute arrays. Presumably, increasing the attributes of a given monster or non-player character increases its CR, and all the iconic PCs are built on 25 point buy.

That is to say, if increasing or decreasing the attributes of player characters adjusts their power, why would we assume that standard CRs are suitable for non-standard PCs?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-14, 07:18 AM
Because they explicitly say that different methods were used in making different things? Keep in mind that "standard" point buy is still an alternative method of character generation. One of nine possible options listed in core alone.

You're looking for some sort of master balance plan that doesn't exist.

Matthew
2009-10-14, 07:28 AM
Because they explicitly say that different methods were used in making different things?

Eh, like what?



Keep in mind that "standard" point buy is still an alternative method of character generation. One of nine possible options listed in core alone.

You're looking for some sort of master balance plan that doesn't exist.

What I am saying that there are standard assumptions about party strength for basic CRs, whether they are accurate or not is a separate issue. That is why there is a standard assumption of numbers of encounters, and a standard assumption of wealth by level. There is a central mathematical standard to which everything is supposed to be balanced, and for attributes it is 25 point buy or elite array.

Kylarra
2009-10-14, 08:35 AM
I think we can all agree that even if the game is supposedly "balanced" towards 25pb characters, balance in 3.X means jack all in regards to characters or monster CR.

Andras
2009-10-14, 12:14 PM
I think we can all agree that even if the game is supposedly "balanced" towards 25pb characters, balance in 3.X means jack all in regards to characters or monster CR.

Pretty much this. While theoretically it should be balanced to 25, in reality it's all over the map because whoever designated monsters to the given CRs didn't quite understand what they were doing.

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 12:31 PM
Actually, loss of save DC is countered by lower overall saving throw bonuses from ability mods too. Wizard Int 15 is, by level 4, only -1 to the DC versus an 18 int wiz.

Higher point buy allows playing -con +int races, and/or having age penalties, so depending on pb, our hypothetical wizard could have over 20 int by level 4.


Conversely, a character with a 13 Con, 14 Wis, and 12 Dex will be, at the same level, -1 to -2 behind on all saves.

Yes, but that character isn't fighting the party wizard, so it doesn't matter.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-14, 12:47 PM
Pretty much this. While theoretically it should be balanced to 25, in reality it's all over the map because whoever designated monsters to the given CRs didn't quite understand what they were doing.

No, they did know what they were doing, but the guys who did it never communicated.
So one guy decides CR 6, but other creature similar is at CR 7.

Tavar
2009-10-14, 12:57 PM
Yes, but that character isn't fighting the party wizard, so it doesn't matter.

Of course, he could be fighting spellcasting NPC's, or monsters with class levels, or monsters with spell like abilities, or things that provoke saves.

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 01:01 PM
Of course, he could be fighting spellcasting NPC's, or monsters with class levels, or monsters with spell like abilities, or things that provoke saves.

Monsters use 10 10 10 11 11 11, and NPCs use 13 12 11 10 9 8. NPCs also have lower quality gear.

jiriku
2009-10-14, 03:30 PM
I respect you all as fellow players of the game, but honestly it's pretty funny to read these posts from people who are swearing up and down that having less than a 32 point buy dooms your campaign to suck forever.

As a DM who has been actually running such campaigns for years, I can tell you that my players have a heck of a good time, build interesting, memorable characters that they enjoy playing, and manage to strike a party balance that ensures everyone has a good time.

Now, if we're going to discuss the impact ability scores have on game balance at all, let's talk about rolling the dice. I mean, I love my d6's just as much as the next guy, but when two players roll stats, and one has a net +3 in ability bonuses while the next has a net +11 in bonuses, it's going to take a serious effort to balance the power of the two characters, even if they choose classes in the same tier.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-14, 03:34 PM
I respect you all as fellow players of the game, but honestly it's pretty funny to read these posts from people who are swearing up and down that having less than a 32 point buy dooms your campaign to suck forever.

That's just it: It doesn't ruin the campaign itself, it weakens the characters who are all ready at the lowest end of the metaphorical Totem Pole.

ericgrau
2009-10-14, 03:46 PM
We've already covered that elite array is not equal in power to a standard point buy.

Sigh...

15: 8
14: 6
13: 5
12: 4
10: 2
8: 0
TOTAL: 25

Also scroll up to my earlier post to see elite array vs. average rolls, and a tripping fighter that does just fine with elite array.

Random832
2009-10-14, 03:54 PM
TOTAL: 25

That doesn't mean you wouldn't do better with a less uniform distribution of those 25 points.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-14, 03:58 PM
Sigh...

15: 8
14: 6
13: 5
12: 4
10: 2
8: 0
TOTAL: 25

Also scroll up to my earlier post to see elite array vs. average rolls, and a tripping fighter that does just fine with elite array.

I think he meant "in terms of flexibility", not "in terms of point cost". I know for a fact that being able to pick and choose what my character's stats are is more powerful than being forced to have a set array.


Edit: I now have documented proof that a Garchomp is not faster than a (Random) ninja.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-14, 04:28 PM
Sigh...

15: 8
14: 6
13: 5
12: 4
10: 2
8: 0
TOTAL: 25

Also scroll up to my earlier post to see elite array vs. average rolls, and a tripping fighter that does just fine with elite array.

The fact that you can make a workable build with certain constraints has no bearing on balance, or relative power level.

As an obvious, trivial bit of optimizing, you would be better off with that exact same number of points distributed so that you had even numbers in all stats instead of having two odd numbers. Look, same amount of points, more power.

JellyPooga
2009-10-14, 04:34 PM
The fact that you can make a workable build with certain constraints has no bearing on balance, or relative power level.

As an obvious, trivial bit of optimizing, you would be better off with that exact same number of points distributed so that you had even numbers in all stats instead of having two odd numbers. Look, same amount of points, more power.

Except that one of the odd stats (15) would take 2 points to increase...so no, that doesn't work. Using 25 point buy, you will always have at least one odd number (I think...:smallconfused:)

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-14, 04:41 PM
Except that one of the odd stats (15) would take 2 points to increase...so no, that doesn't work. Using 25 point buy, you will always have at least one odd number (I think...:smallconfused:)

You're right, the combination possibilities prevent all even stats. Unless you actually care about the 8, which can become a 9 at no other benefit.

ericgrau
2009-10-14, 05:59 PM
That doesn't mean you wouldn't do better with a less uniform distribution of those 25 points.

That would only mean point buy is also better than average rolls and needs to be reduced to match, since - again - elite matches average rolls, or a hair worse IIRC (cuz of fractions). They didn't balance vs. point buy. So if the above is true then 25 PB is too much if you want to match it up with rolled stats.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-14, 06:54 PM
You're right, the combination possibilities prevent all even stats. Unless you actually care about the 8, which can become a 9 at no other benefit.

Yes, any odd point buy will result in at least one odd number. However, if it has more than one odd number, you've generally done something wrong.

For example, you could drop the 15 down to a 14, and bump the 13 up to a 14, and have another point left to drop somewhere else. Probably not the eight, since anything you're dumping that badly is probably irrelevant. The 12 is an obvious candidate, as it's likely on a more important stat.

But anyhow, as I've already covered earlier...4d6 drop lowest does not average out to a 25 point buy. 4d6 drop lowest gets an average roll of approximately 14. Sure, you could roll up something equivalent to a 25 point buy, but generally, you'll have some stats above, and some below average. Rolling 3 below average means having 3 less points. Rolling 3 above means having 7 more.

See the difference?

jiriku
2009-10-14, 09:13 PM
That's just it: It doesn't ruin the campaign itself, it weakens the characters who are all ready at the lowest end of the metaphorical Totem Pole.

I gather you're saying that it weakens them more than those at the top of the totem pole.

I don't disagree with you, but on what do you base this theory? My experience over the past few years hasn't borne that out.

Milskidasith
2009-10-14, 09:18 PM
I gather you're saying that it weakens them more than those at the top of the totem pole.

I don't disagree with you, but on what do you base this theory? My experience over the past few years hasn't borne that out.

Simple: A SAD character like a wizard, a Psion, a Druid, or a Sorcerer (and a Cleric, though they lose out on more than others with just high wisdom) needs only one stat at a certain point to always be able to do everything they are capable of. Sure, higher stats help, but they aren't necessary to get stuff out; if you are a low wisdom Druid, cast less Entangles, and more Greenbound summoned critters. They only need to have exactly a 15 in a stat to never be behind on spells, so they're fine. MAD characters, however, need multiple stats at such high levels. A Monk who only boosts, say, strength will have pathetic AC from his +2 to wisdom, or pathetic damage and to hit because he went with wisdom over strength. When you PB, you can dump multiple stats and then increase the ones that are needed to a +3 or so. Then again, Monks can't even dump stats like that, so they're kind of SoL.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-14, 09:29 PM
Right...shovel points at a druid, and the excess does relatively little. I mean...you can only get your casting stat to an 18...

Shovel points at a monk, and they actually become effective. Sort of.

Superglucose
2009-10-14, 09:40 PM
Right...shovel points at a druid, and the excess does relatively little. I mean...you can only get your casting stat to an 18...

Shovel points at a monk, and they actually become effective. Sort of.

Exactly. I still remember one game where the (idiot) GM declared "The elite array is perfect for monks!"

I almost choked.

Ozymandias9
2009-10-14, 10:01 PM
Exactly. I still remember one game where the (idiot) GM declared "The elite array is perfect for monks!"

I almost choked.

Why not? You're getting a bunch of reasonably high ability scores...

Seriously though, the question we should be asking is: "Elite array as opposed to what? The answer is very different looking at a 32 point buy than it is looking at 3d6 in order swap once.

Deepblue706
2009-10-15, 02:55 AM
For Pally, I'd likely go:

Str 13, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8 Wis 10, Cha 15

At least, under elite array. The extra +1 to hit/damage, IMO, is not as important as +1 to all saves and extra healing. Wisdom, if needed, can be boosted via level gain. Ideally, I'd PrC/ACF out of the spellcasting though. That means that level 4 and 8 stat boost can go to str and Cha, and you're left with a +4 to reflex from stat, +5 Fort, and +3 Will.

At...at level 1, you have a +2 to attack, which is not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) very (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direRat.htm) reliable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm).

I hope you take Weapon Focus.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-15, 07:37 AM
Why not? You're getting a bunch of reasonably high ability scores...

Seriously though, the question we should be asking is: "Elite array as opposed to what? The answer is very different looking at a 32 point buy than it is looking at 3d6 in order swap once.

We've already covered that elite array is inferior compared to even a 25 point buy, it's definitely inferior to just rolling stats, and those are the most common methods of char generation.

Lets look at alternative methods in the DMG:
Nonstandard point buy. Higher is obviously better, lower is arguably worse. Depends how much lower.

Floating Reroll. This is slightly better than the standard method, and is hugely better than elite array.

Organic characters: Less precise placement of best stats, but generates better average stats than the floating reroll. For a MAD character, like a monk, this is probably the ideal system, since you can still shuffle off a dump stat, get more points overall, and the SAD characters aren't as perfect.

Customized Average Characters: 3d6 rolling for stats. Almost nobody uses this.

Random Average Characters: 3d6 rolling for stats, no choice in where they go. Routinely makes unplayable characters, and frankly, just sucks. Nobody uses this.

High powered characters: 5d6 drop lowest 2. Rearrange as desired, easy access to rerolls if you did poorly.


Basically, no other system that's in common use is worse than elite array.

Flying Dutchman
2009-10-15, 08:40 AM
Our Dm gave us a 34 point buy for our current campaign. Although last campaign all our chars were really powerful in fights, so i think he wanted us strong so he could toss some ridiculous stuff at us. Our party is mostly 3rd teir and lower though minus our Psion.

Another_Poet
2009-10-15, 10:03 AM
hehe, have som evil poltergeist offer to improve a character's main stat to 18 if he/she allows it to possess them once a day.

:)

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-15, 10:41 AM
OP, I speak more basing on experience than math: as far as I know, for the balance of the campaing AMONG PLAYERS, is better concede high ability scores.

If a wiz has +1 or +2 on the spell DC because of an higher int, an higher con, and an higher dexterity, you can simply tweak a little bit (legally, I mean, by feats and similar things) the saves of the monsters, and drop less scrolls since he will have more bonus spells. HIgher con = more HP, not such a big problem. High dex, will have mor fun with the crossbow at low levels.

On the other hand, a fighter with a big stat other than streght will be FAR more interesting to play: could pimp Char for fear effects, or Dex + Int to gather CR and CE feats and be very cool to play (just imagine him charge, wreak havoc and then be charged: so use hold the line --> knockdownon the orc barbarians charging him. In the subsequent round, finish off andfscare to death those who resisted him.. Just an example, of course.

Shortly, is better, IMHO, high stat. See, I like PC with high stats, but not at fist levels - I like 1st level PCs be more like "pimped commoners" that have to find their way, just starting their career. i fixed it allowing 28 point buy at 1st level, and then starting a "retraining" quest at mid levels to iincrease the effective stats to a 32 point buy (you drink a cup donned by the Queen of Fey, you are blessed by Angels, you deal with Aevils ... as you wish).

you could adapt this idea even in 3 steps, 25--> 28-->32 at 1st, 8th, 16th (examples).

Said this, I don't consider at all unplayable a PC with the elite array. I played PC even worse. I played 3.x with "3d6, in order" with my old master. Simply, IMHO, can be fun, but is not a way to balance.

kme
2009-10-15, 11:36 AM
I don't understand peoples obsession with high stats. Elite array works just fine, and no, you wont be useless or gimped. If you really must have a higher stat (and why would you?), just pick a race that boosts it.

Remember that the default method for stat generation is rolling, and it is very easy to get stats that are actually worse than EA, and I have seen it in practice many times.

Tavar
2009-10-15, 11:45 AM
I don't understand peoples obsession with high stats. Elite array works just fine, and no, you wont be useless or gimped. If you really must have a higher stat (and why would you?), just pick a race that boosts it.

Remember that the default method for stat generation is rolling, and it is very easy to get stats that are actually worse than EA, and I have seen it in practice many times.

And many types of characters are gimped by EA. For instance, it's hard to make a Paladin who's not just a fighter without bonus feats, at least at low levels where your stats still matter. Or making a monk, period.

Conversely, the higher tiered classes need the higher ability scores to a much lower extent, so their power level remains the same.

Milskidasith
2009-10-15, 12:00 PM
hehe, have som evil poltergeist offer to improve a character's main stat to 18 if he/she allows it to possess them once a day.

:)

Magic Circle of Protection against anything.

Boom, the PC is immune and now has a stat at 18 for free.

Secondly... that was entirely irrelevant to this conversation, except that it would help SAD characters far more than it would help MAD characters (unless the MAD character could bump his 12 up to an 18, which might make him... playable, but focused on something different than he was previously.)

jiriku
2009-10-15, 12:44 PM
Simple: A SAD character like a wizard, a Psion, a Druid, or a Sorcerer (and a Cleric, though they lose out on more than others with just high wisdom) needs only one stat at a certain point to always be able to do everything they are capable of. Sure, higher stats help, but they aren't necessary to get stuff out; if you are a low wisdom Druid, cast less Entangles, and more Greenbound summoned critters. They only need to have exactly a 15 in a stat to never be behind on spells, so they're fine. MAD characters, however, need multiple stats at such high levels. A Monk who only boosts, say, strength will have pathetic AC from his +2 to wisdom, or pathetic damage and to hit because he went with wisdom over strength. When you PB, you can dump multiple stats and then increase the ones that are needed to a +3 or so. Then again, Monks can't even dump stats like that, so they're kind of SoL.

I don't follow.

Not long ago everyone was sounding off in a thread about how the bonus spells granted by high attributes were the "elephant in the living room" because casters benefitted more from high attributes than non-casters.

Now I see some of the same people arguing that non-casters benefit more from extra stat points. Which is correct?

Tavar
2009-10-15, 12:51 PM
I don't follow.

Not long ago everyone was sounding off in a thread about how the bonus spells granted by high attributes were the "elephant in the living room" because casters benefitted more from high attributes than non-casters.

Now I see some of the same people arguing that non-casters benefit more from extra stat points. Which is correct?

Oddly enough, both. Casters get more out of a high stat than non-casters thanks to bonus spells, but they don't need that to be good, it's just extra.

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 12:57 PM
I don't follow.

Not long ago everyone was sounding off in a thread about how the bonus spells granted by high attributes were the "elephant in the living room" because casters benefitted more from high attributes than non-casters.

Now I see some of the same people arguing that non-casters benefit more from extra stat points. Which is correct?It depends on your caster, but ultimately there's a margin of diminishing returns where your SAD caster will no longer be gaining use out of extra stat points (a few exceptions, notably cloistered clericzillas, mostly because I love mentioning them, you can find the rest searching for that all 18s thread from a while back), but your MAD classes will still be able to make more use of them in order to become more competent.

Your upper tier classes are still plausible with low stat points. Up to a point they gain more power with more stat points until they have 18 in their primary and secondary stats. Then they start to get marginal benefits, whereas something like say the aforementioned monk or paladin, will still be gaining "more" benefits from having higher stats.

Think Wizard vs paladin, with a single high stat, say an 18, a wizard is perfectly fine doing his schtick for pretty much the rest of his life, whereas the paladin can either hit things or have saves. A second 18 allows the paladin to have both. A third allows them to actually have HP to tank. A fourth would give them wisdom to cast spells. Meanwhile after 3 18s, the wizard is marginally just picking between WIS/CHA/STR to add to, none of which have any real affect on his power potential.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-15, 02:29 PM
I don't follow.

Not long ago everyone was sounding off in a thread about how the bonus spells granted by high attributes were the "elephant in the living room" because casters benefitted more from high attributes than non-casters.

Now I see some of the same people arguing that non-casters benefit more from extra stat points. Which is correct?

You're missing the point. Here's the full problem:


Casters do not need ability scores aside from their casting stat and Con.
Melee characters are not very effective if they have poor stats.
Casters gain next to no benefit from secondary stats as long as their primary stat and Con are 18s or so.
Melee characters are considerably more effective if they have good secondary stats, and even more so if they have high primary stats.
Melee classes are not as powerful as casters. They have no method of boosting their ability scores without an outside effect, but casters do (quite readily).

Once the caster has a base 18 in their casting stat, they need only a 14 or so in Con, a 10 or 12 in Dex, and a 12 or so in Wisdom (unless they are Wisdom-based). Every point beyond this is simply icing on the cake. Most feats a spellcaster wants to take require no secondary ability scores, and many require no ability scores at all (Metamagic, for example). Any weaknesses a caster has can be covered thanks to spells, feats, and magic items. These abilities can be obtained at fairly low levels.

Noncasters, however, have considerable weaknesses that they cannot cover very easily, especially at the lowest levels (where melee characters have a chance to be important). A Chain Tripper build, for example, needs a Str of 13, a Dex of 13, an Int of 13, and a Con of 14 or higher to be playable at all (the first three are for feats, the last is for HP). Optimally, a Chain Tripper would want a Str of 18 (for 2-handing the Spiked Chain), a Dex of 20 or better for AoOs, an Int of 13, and a Con of 16.

Noncasters must wait to get abilities to cover their weaknesses due to the WBL and the way levels work.


Can a noncaster function off of the Elite Array? Certainly, especially if they accept the LA on a race like Goliath or Tiefling, but they're going to be losing out quite a bit due to that level adjustment or low stats. If a noncaster has better than the Elite Array, then they are much better off. Does having a higher ability array change the way a noncaster plays? Yes. Indefinitely.

Can a caster function off of the Elite Array? Happily. Easily. After a certain point (usually 7th level or so), they don't even need their ability scores aside from Con and Casting Stat. Does having a higher ability score change the way they play? Not really. It may make them less conservative about their spells/day, but other than that nothing really changes.

jiriku
2009-10-15, 03:30 PM
Ok, let me try a practical application of this and see how it works.

For the sake of argument, let's introduce a wizard, a chain-tripping fighter, and a smite-happy paladin, all at 6th level when class balance is supposedly pretty good. I'm not going to use a monk because that particular dog has been kicked to death. I'll assumed everyone puts their extra ability point into their primary stat. I'll assume max hp at level 1 and half-0.5 hp per level thereafter. I'll assume everyone has a +2 item on their primary stat and melee types have a +1 weapon.

Elite Array:
Wizard Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 10
Spells 1st: 4, 2nd: 4, 3rd: 3
hp 20, AC 12+spells, Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +6

Fighter Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
attack bonus 10+feats
hp 41, AC 19 (in mithril plate), Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +2

Paladin Str 18, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14
attack bonus 10+feats
spells 1st: 2
hp 41, AC 17 (in plate), Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +5



Now the same trio with a 32-point buy:
Wizard Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 21, Wis 12, Cha 8
Spells 1st: 5, 2nd: 4, 3rd: 3
hp 26, AC 12+spells, Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +6

Fighter Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
attack bonus 10+feats
hp 47, AC 20 (in mithril plate), Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +2

Paladin Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 16
attack bonus 10+feats
spells 1st: 2
hp 47, AC 17 (in plate), Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +6



This is my choice of point buy placement. If you can suggest a better one, please do, and I'll re-run the numbers.


So the difference when we shift from elite array to 32-point buy is as follows:
Wizard: 1 extra 1st level spell, +1 spell DC, 6 hp, +1 to Fort saves, 9 skill points

Fighter: +1 AC, Ref save, and +1 opportunity attack, +6 hp and +1 Fort save

Paladin: +6 hp, +1 to all saves (+2 Fort), 1 extra turn undead attempt


Now, I'll concede that the paladin is essentially working from a 31-pb because he has an extra point thrown on Con that he can't apply anywhere where it would provide a mechanical benefit. But who benefits most here? I don't see the fighter and paladin winning out strongly over the wizard.

Edit: changed to correct fighter stats

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 03:43 PM
32 pb is still within the margin of SAD superiority.
It's also worth pointing out that improved tripping requires combat expertise which requires 13 int, which should show you how much the fighter really needs his extra statpoints, but the wizard is just fine without them.

Milskidasith
2009-10-15, 03:46 PM
Well for one thing, you put a 10 in int for the fighter... you can't do that. He needs a 13 in Int for chain tripping. You also buffed up wisdom (unnecessary) and added an 18 in str (not really that great when you need multiple stats high up).

So what you actually have is:

Fighter Elite array: 18 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Int, 12 Con, 11 Wis, 8 Cha.

Figher 32 PB: 19 Str 16/14 Dex, 16/14 Con, 8 Wis 8 Cha.

32 PB gives you decent HP and one extra AoO, or good HP and the same amount of AoOs, and a few more skill points. However, with a fighter... 12 con compared to 14 or 16 is a lot, and the HP means a lot more to him.

jiriku
2009-10-15, 04:04 PM
OK, corrected stats. I personally when building a fighter wouldn't take a -4 hit to Wis in order to gain +2 to Con, but maybe that's just because my DMs like things that force Will saves. It's a matter of taste.

So out of these three would you say it's the fighter who's the winner? My perspective is that the fighter and the wizard benefit about equally, while the paladin seems to get a little less benefit from the extra points.

Kylarra, maybe I'm a little confused here. 32-PB is pretty much the most powerful creation option on the table, unless you invent something that's not in the book. If the argument is that more generous and flexible creation methods (instead of elite) disproportionately helps low-tier, MAD classes, isn't it a fair test to compare elite to the most generous and flexible alternative in the book?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-15, 04:24 PM
OK, corrected stats. I personally when building a fighter wouldn't take a -4 hit to Wis in order to gain +2 to Con, but maybe that's just because my DMs like things that force Will saves. It's a matter of taste.

So out of these three would you say it's the fighter who's the winner? My perspective is that the fighter and the wizard benefit about equally, while the paladin seems to get a little less benefit from the extra points.

Kylarra, maybe I'm a little confused here. 32-PB is pretty much the most powerful creation option on the table, unless you invent something that's not in the book. If the argument is that more generous and flexible creation methods (instead of elite) disproportionately helps low-tier, MAD classes, isn't it a fair test to compare elite to the most generous and flexible alternative in the book?

The Fighter gains the most benefit from the 32 PB, as he is able to take Improved Trip without needing to wait until his Int score is 13. The same applies for Combat Reflexes. And Power Attack. He's getting up to 12 extra HP and a bonus to Fort saves over the Elite array.

The Paladin's stats are a little wonky. He should have:

Str: 18
Dex: 10
Con: 14 (the +1 from level goes here)
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 16

He gets a whole 6 extra HP, and a +1 Fort save bonus in addition to the improved stats from the 32 PB. This still beats out the Elite Array, but makes it much more obvious.


The Wizard? I've proven that the bonus spells/day don't matter to him. The extra 1st level spell? Not that good. The +1 Save DC? Ok. The extra Skill Points? Meh, skills suck in 3.5. The bonus to Fort? Nice, not that he can't just cast a spell like Alter Self to get a better Con score. In other words, the only benefits he gets that he wouldn't all ready have a way to obtain are the skills and the save DC.


Whereas the Fighter gets extra attacks, improved damage and attack rolls, a bonus to Trip Attempts, and the whole shebang.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-15, 05:07 PM
OK, corrected stats. I personally when building a fighter wouldn't take a -4 hit to Wis in order to gain +2 to Con, but maybe that's just because my DMs like things that force Will saves. It's a matter of taste.

So out of these three would you say it's the fighter who's the winner? My perspective is that the fighter and the wizard benefit about equally, while the paladin seems to get a little less benefit from the extra points.

The wizard doesn't do terribly badly yet, because he's investing into int. Arguably, the fighter is still better off, but hey, lets make this more blatant. Try adding additional points, instead of just comparing to elite array.

Make it a 36 pt buy.

The wizard gets either a +1 dex or con modifier, whichever he wants more. Not really a big deal, frankly. Offensive power doesn't increase at all really.

The pally can actually get some much needed dex, and get his wisdom to 14. Vastly bigger buff.

jiriku
2009-10-15, 05:14 PM
But 36-point buy isn't one of the character creation options specified in the DMG. Remove the constraint of RAW, and we're not demonstrating the strength or weakness of the rules any more.


ST: I have rearranged the stats on the fighter and paladin as you suggested. The elite array fighter now qualifies for all the feats you mentioned at level 1. I should note that he gains 6 hp and 1 Fort, which is the exact benefit obtained by the paladin and wizard, and which you claimed was insignificant for the wizard.


Now, if I understand you, you're suggesting that +1 hit/damage for a fighter > grease 1/day (or better spells as the wizard's Int continues to scale). I hear something different from you when you're praising the virtues of the batman wizard. I'm also unpersuaded that a fourth opportunity attack in any given round has much marginal utility.

Meh. I suppose it's not going to change anything anyhow. I'll continue to run my games with elite or 25-pb, and you'll continue to use your own methods. Neither of us seems much persuaded from our original positions.

BTW, kindly don't shout in your posts. I'm treating your views with respect. I'd appreciate it if you'd return the favor.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-15, 05:18 PM
But 36-point buy isn't one of the character creation options specified in the DMG. Remove the constraint of RAW, and we're not demonstrating the strength or weakness of the rules any more.

THE RULES ARE MESSED UP ENOUGH AS IT IS, THERE'S NO REASON TO PROVE HOW WEAK OR STRONG THEY ARE.

Seriously, why bother? Point Buy is better for noncasters than the Elite Array, especially with more points involved (because casters don't care). Point Buy is also safer than rolling stats.