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Cieyrin
2009-10-13, 07:45 PM
A real long time ago, in the peasant kingdom of Peasantry...

Some people who lived...IN FEAR!

YOU are Rather Dashing, a peasant wearing short pants who returns from vacation to find his thatch wood cottage BURNINATED!

You swear revenge and embark on an incredible adventure to vanquish the Burninator once and for all!

So yeah, I've been bouncing the idea of having characters start as Commoners in a thorp and do the whole Peasant Hero send up. The game would probably start less combat oriented and more problem solving and build up as the characters find their individual strengths and grow into legends that haven't been seen in the land for generations.

Mechanically, this wouldn't be normal D&D by any stretch, considering how weak commoners are normally. I'm thinking Organic Stat Generation, random Trait, flaws allowed, standard races (leaning toward shorter lived, though I'll allow any if you can give me a good fluff reason, even allowing non-standard if you put the effort in, though no LA or RHD). Also perhaps a no-strings attached bonus feat.

Challenges would start as minor as wayward goblins and bandits and build as they get more experienced. As they're commoners, I'd probably have them do some back-up commoners or have stock characters for them to pick up into in case someone forgets that peasant is mortal or just has a bad roll of dice (which happens).

So, thoughts? Ways to expand? War stories of heroic peasantry? Utter scathing criticism that this is completely infeasible and I'm a fool to consider? Feel free to post! =D

Coidzor
2009-10-13, 07:57 PM
Beware Chicken McFisty.

BobVosh
2009-10-13, 08:21 PM
I would like to point out riddles are generally thought of as "bad." A campaign based around?

If your party likes it, then go for it.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-13, 08:28 PM
Don't forget that, as peasants, they WILL be expected to be on fire. :smallwink:

Paulus
2009-10-13, 08:30 PM
A real long time ago, in the peasant kingdom of Peasantry...

Some people who lived...IN FEAR!

YOU are Rather Dashing, a peasant wearing short pants who returns from vacation to find his thatch wood cottage BURNINATED!

You swear revenge and embark on an incredible adventure to vanquish the Burninator once and for all!

After searching the town for survivors and making sure all are well or burying the dead, I suit up: wool tunic, rope belt, leather boots, quarterstaff and sling. I grab my charred blanket and stuff whatever food I can find in it, I wrap that around my chest. I wash my hair and hands in the ashes of my entire life and begin my quest by marching in the direction of the path of destitution and destruction.


Bahamut, I would love this...

BobVosh
2009-10-13, 08:35 PM
Don't forget that, as peasants, they WILL be expected to be on fire. :smallwink:

Then the players will state that ninjas can't catch you if you are on fire. Then a bad class becomes worse.

Akal Saris
2009-10-13, 08:37 PM
I started a game like this, though it died quickly (PBP...). It was fun enough, but once the novelty wears off it gets pretty boring not having any class features.

Cieyrin
2009-10-13, 08:41 PM
I would like to point out riddles are generally thought of as "bad." A campaign based around?

If your party likes it, then go for it.

When I say problem solving, I mean not slogging in, sword first. I mean traps, ambushes and other tactics.

Riddles may show up but that's normal campaign fare.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-13, 08:44 PM
Then the players will state that ninjas can't catch you if you are on fire. Then a bad class becomes worse.

Don't worry about it. I think that Ninjas are pretty much ruled out by virtue of it being a classical medieval european-style setting.

Cieyrin
2009-10-13, 08:58 PM
I started a game like this, though it died quickly (PBP...). It was fun enough, but once the novelty wears off it gets pretty boring not having any class features.

I should also probably say that I don't intend to keep them as commoners. They'll be able to retrain out as they come into their power. I'm just going for a humble beginnings feel here.

revolver kobold
2009-10-13, 09:19 PM
My DM is planning a campaign much like this, starting off as commoners before gaining class levels.

We have decided to give the E6 rules a go.

olelia
2009-10-13, 09:45 PM
Sorry..but the first thing that came to mind when I read the thread..

Peasant quest (http://www.homestarrunner.com/disk4of12.html)

root9125
2009-10-13, 09:46 PM
Sorry..but the first thing that came to mind when I read the thread..

Peasant quest (http://www.homestarrunner.com/disk4of12.html)

That was the reference in the first post, good sir. And it is quite an excellent game by its own merits. XD

Cieyrin
2009-10-13, 10:13 PM
That was the reference in the first post, good sir. And it is quite an excellent game by its own merits. XD

Indeed, that was what I took it from, word for word. :smalltongue:

ondonaflash
2009-10-14, 12:32 AM
Eschew traditional D&D altogether, and just give them powers as they accomplish tasks.

chiasaur11
2009-10-14, 12:52 AM
Of course, the game should end with death by Trogdor.

It's a good way to die (if you know the reason why.)

If Trogdor is unavailable, use the S is for Suck dragon.

Berserk Monk
2009-10-14, 12:56 AM
A real long time ago, in the peasant kingdom of Peasantry...

Some people who lived...IN FEAR!

YOU are Rather Dashing, a peasant wearing short pants who returns from vacation to find his thatch wood cottage BURNINATED!

You swear revenge and embark on an incredible adventure to vanquish the Burninator once and for all!

So yeah, I've been bouncing the idea of having characters start as Commoners in a thorp and do the whole Peasant Hero send up. The game would probably start less combat oriented and more problem solving and build up as the characters find their individual strengths and grow into legends that haven't been seen in the land for generations.

Mechanically, this wouldn't be normal D&D by any stretch, considering how weak commoners are normally. I'm thinking Organic Stat Generation, random Trait, flaws allowed, standard races (leaning toward shorter lived, though I'll allow any if you can give me a good fluff reason, even allowing non-standard if you put the effort in, though no LA or RHD). Also perhaps a no-strings attached bonus feat.

Challenges would start as minor as wayward goblins and bandits and build as they get more experienced. As they're commoners, I'd probably have them do some back-up commoners or have stock characters for them to pick up into in case someone forgets that peasant is mortal or just has a bad roll of dice (which happens).

So, thoughts? Ways to expand? War stories of heroic peasantry? Utter scathing criticism that this is completely infeasible and I'm a fool to consider? Feel free to post! =D

So, you're making a campaign based on a game where the end boss is invincible and kills you in one attack?

Hashmir
2009-10-14, 01:27 AM
Sounds fun. Going further along these lines, you could pretty much take everything out of the hands of the players, so the class chooses you. Random traits, random flaws, random race (from a list of your own personal favorites!). And of course random stats -- however you decide them, it should be out of the hands of the player which numbers go where, a la Hackmaster.

Now that I think about it, I bet you could do some cool stuff to make the whole setup really feel like the precursor to a "real" campaign -- the stories that come before the heroes. For instance, you could simply force everyone to take X levels of Commoner before doing anything else. Or...

What if you start everyone off at Commoner level I (not 1), with mediocre stats -- probably ranging from 8 to 13. The first few adventures would see these young nobodies advance all the way to level IV, where they would gain the standard stat increase and (more importantly) begin to take levels in one of the better NPC classes: Adept, Expert, or Warrior. They would continue along these paths until the seventh level, at which point they would get some big stat increases and finally start taking some real class levels.

I'm kind of tired, so pardon me if this is all a little unorganized, but my basic idea is this:

I believe there are two choices in how one would run a game starting with "pre-adventurers." One is to start everyone as Commoners for a level or two before they suddenly come into their own, which is a kinda cool change of pace. The other is to spend a great deal of time with the characters being weak, and then slowly (oh so slowly!) incrementing them up -- Commoners to better NPC classes to actual PC classes.

This second approach may not be for you at all, but you cannot deny that it would be a radically different approach to playing D&D 3.5. Obviously, one would want to hand out experience like candy until the players get their real classes, but it would still require above all else role-players. After all, without obvious classes to determine the differences between characters or random battles to add instant action, it falls to the players to really bring the characters and the plot to life.

With dedicated players (I would guess 3-4, to help ensure the game moves), I think it would truly be a magnificent story. I mean, to watch a bunch of random kids claw their way up to first level would really make that moment pretty damn triumphant. All you need is the right people. :smallwink:

EDIT:

First, that was very stream-of-consciousness. Sorry for the jumbled thoughts.

Second, writing this just made me think of playing gestalt with NPC classes (which really just means Expert, Warrior, and Adept). Then I realized that it would be boring as hell, because none of the classes other than Adept have anything other than BAB, saves, and a proficiency or two.

So now I pose another question: In this same spirit, how would one go about running a hilariously low-power gestalt game? (That means not just handing out terrible stats.)

bosssmiley
2009-10-14, 08:00 AM
Beware Chicken McFisty.

I leave this thread with something worthwhile: my bizarre porn Indian name. :smallamused:

@Cieyrin: play Labyrinth Lord (old D&D) for a bit if you fancy slumming at the bottom end of the power curve. Just surviving to get to 2nd level is a whole game in itself. I mean, do you know what Fighters get as their special class ability? Can wear armour and use weapons.

"3d6 in order, ladies." :smallcool:

JellyPooga
2009-10-14, 09:14 AM
The way I'd handle this would be as follows...

1)Peasants Ho!

Everyone starts at Level 1 Commoner. Stats are 4d4 (yes, 4d4) allocated in order (i.e. you don't get to choose what goes where "old skool" stylee). For reference, that should give an average of 10 across the board.

Adventures include The Amazing Tale of the Goblin Raider (singular) and How Bob Found the Key. No-one levels up.

2)Hmmm, I could get a feel for this...

Once everyone's bored of Peasants Ho! all the players get to choose a different NPC class. This NPC class level replaces their one level in Commoner and represents a slight upgrade in their abilities...anyone that wants to be a spellcaster must be an Adept (change the requisite casting stat depending on what type of spellcaster they wish to be), fighter-types obviously go for Warrior and skill-monkeys will obviously aim at Expert.

In addition, each player has 2d6 and 2d4 with which they can upgrade their Ability Scores. No more than one die can be added to any one score and you must choose what to assign where before rolling. No score can go above their Racial Maximum (i.e. 18+Racial modifiers). You may also, at this point exchange your Level 1 Feat(s).

Adventures now involve multiple enemies and might even have the brave heroes leaving their home village. Again no-one levels up.

3)HaHaaa! Adventurers, ho!

Once the boredome of Getting a Feel for This sets in, the same process occurs except everyone upgrades to a PC Class. This will be limited by what NPC class you took...e.g. Warriors cannot upgrade to Sorcerer.

This time, you only have 2d4 to increase your Ability scores, using the same process as before and you may not change your Feat selection.

Adventures now begin proper, like any other game and the players level up as normal.

Using this method, each character should have stats generated by one of the following methods by the time they start their adventuring career proper:

2 Prime Attributes: 5d4+1d6 (Average: 16, Max: 18)
2 Secondary Attributes: 5d4 (Average: 12.5, Max: 18)
2 Tertiary Attributes: 4d4 (Average: 10, Max: 16)

2 Prime: 6d4 (15/18)
2 Secondary: 4d4+1d6 (13/18)
2 Tertiary: 4d4 (10/16)

2 Prime: 4d4+1d6 (13/18)
4 Secondary: 5d4 (12.5/18)

Each player will have to choose his path dependant on his stats at first, but he also has a little choice in the matter as he gets to choose where to assign his "bonus rolls"...so if he's dead set on playing a Wizard, but only rolled an Int 8 to begin with, he can invest more into that (and still potentially hit 18 by the time he's a Wizard proper).

I don't know how balanced this would work out, but it is a system I just conjured off of the top of my head...

Mushroom Ninja
2009-10-14, 09:22 AM
A game where everyone's a peasant? It'd be like low level 2e all over again -- just without THAC0! Awesome! I would totally join such a game.

Cieyrin
2009-10-14, 11:02 AM
@Cieyrin: play Labyrinth Lord (old D&D) for a bit if you fancy slumming at the bottom end of the power curve. Just surviving to get to 2nd level is a whole game in itself. I mean, do you know what Fighters get as their special class ability? Can wear armour and use weapons.

"3d6 in order, ladies." :smallcool:

Sir, I started in Basic D&D, where 1st level clerics couldn't cast and Dwarf, Elf and Halfling were all classes. I know full well what old school D&D feels like and it was good times. These days, it's harder to find anyone who even knows what THAC0 is, so you gotta make do and when you gotta make do, it means you gotta make your own mechanics, since the game only provides so much for you to work within its design goals, which I'm pretty much throwing out for this.

@Berserk and Chia: I'm doing it for the feel. There may be epic battles with dragons of the burninating sort that may be impossible to beat by force of arm but that isn't the end goal, as what works in a parody adventure game doesn't necessarily work in a D&D campaign that I'd like to keep going.

@Hash and Jelly: I may model some of my mechanics off of what you guys have here, as there's certainly some good thought on how to make this work out.

Keep the thoughts coming in, for it looks more and more like this crazy idea is actually feasible.:smallbiggrin:

Andras
2009-10-14, 12:32 PM
Keep the thoughts coming in, for it looks more and more like this crazy idea is actually feasible.:smallbiggrin:

Almost anything is feasible with the right group. If you've got people who are willing to do this with you it could be pretty awesome.


Adventures include The Amazing Tale of the Goblin Raider (singular) and How Bob Found the Key.

This would be my suggestion. Make the "adventures" as humorously underwhelming as possible.

Tavar
2009-10-14, 12:52 PM
Here's an example of a commoner game:Commoner Campaign (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558998/Commoner_Campaign?num=10&pg=1)

Cieyrin
2009-10-14, 02:08 PM
Here's an example of a commoner game:Commoner Campaign (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558998/Commoner_Campaign?num=10&pg=1)

I can only hope to have this kind of success, it appears. You've set me onto a very interesting thread, to which I thank you. Good prose is sometimes hard to come across.

Lord Loss
2009-10-14, 03:32 PM
This seems like a good idea (I've considered it before, but never actually, y'know, run it). I say go for it! I'm back, by the way :smallbiggrin:.

Hashmir
2009-10-14, 03:57 PM
You know, after getting some sleep and reading the Wizards thread, I have concluded that you only need a few things to make this really work:

People who are interested in role-playing and story more than class features and "powering up".
Character creation that is not determined by the players themselves -- I mean, it wouldn't be very "peasanty" if people got to determine their identity themselves, now would it?
A solid grasp on mundane rules. In a party of Commoners, you can bet there will be a lot of improvised weapons and skill checks out the wazoo, and I'm guessing a significant portion of these will be checks the DM will have to make up themselves.

Frankly, I'm excited just imagining ways to make it all work.

Cieyrin
2009-10-14, 04:56 PM
People who are interested in role-playing and story more than class features and "powering up".

I guess I'm fortunate in this respect, as the local gamers to me are mostly RPers that I could possibly persuade for such. Not the most rules savvy bunch, admittedly, but that can be worked with.

imp_fireball
2009-10-14, 09:30 PM
I'm up for this.

Just answer the questionairre, OP, and then I'll submit a sheet.

Also, I'd prefer if this were played in IRC. It goes much faster than PbP and is spur of the moment.

Also, don't forget to include:

- Starting HP (I know 1d4, but is it max, average, rolled, or?)
- Starting wealth (even peasants have wealth, kthx)
- Stat Generation
- How many flaws and traits?
- Allowed material for races, equipment and such or if it can be hombrew, etc.
- Are we allowed to make unhappy peasant quips in-game like "A horse kicked me, once. It hurt!", "Yes milord. Hello! Oh er.. kay.", "Ready to serve.", "We are an anarchist socialist commune! Every two weeks we select a new leader..." , "You're the king? Well I didn't vote for you.", "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!", etc.?

Sorry, but too many GMs have already forgotten these things.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-14, 09:34 PM
I should also probably say that I don't intend to keep them as commoners. They'll be able to retrain out as they come into their power. I'm just going for a humble beginnings feel here.

I would happily make the trade of a free feat in return for spending a while as a commoner before retraining to an actual class.

It'd be challenging, but with appropriate light encounters(look at the list of summons for examples. Also, gobbies and kobolds.) it'd be doable.

Cieyrin
2009-10-15, 01:03 PM
I'm up for this.

Just answer the questionairre, OP, and then I'll submit a sheet.

Also, I'd prefer if this were played in IRC. It goes much faster than PbP and is spur of the moment.

Also, don't forget to include:

- Starting HP (I know 1d4, but is it max, average, rolled, or?)
- Starting wealth (even peasants have wealth, kthx)
- Stat Generation
- How many flaws and traits?
- Allowed material for races, equipment and such or if it can be hombrew, etc.
- Are we allowed to make unhappy peasant quips in-game like "A horse kicked me, once. It hurt!", "Yes milord. Hello! Oh er.. kay.", "Ready to serve.", "We are an anarchist socialist commune! Every two weeks we select a new leader..." , "You're the king? Well I didn't vote for you.", "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!", etc.?

Sorry, but too many GMs have already forgotten these things.

I think I answered most of your questions above in the first post but I guess I'll go through that here:

- Max HP, as they are PCs
- Wealth as per 1st level Commoner (it's listed in the DMG with the class)
- I'm still leaning toward organic stat generation, though I'm seriously considering what Hash and Jelly have put up.
- Random trait shall be generated for characters, 1 flaw allowed. I'm pretty sure I'm going to stick with the extra bonus feat so people don't feel completely gipped.
- Races and Equipment as per PHB and probably Arms and Equipment, though I'm open to interesting ideas, so if you want something specific and reasonable, ask and provide me with the source so I can look myself. The 'party' would be starting in a thorp, so you're not likely to find the marvels of technology or even what's common in the cities.
- Random peasant quips are fine, as long as they don't get out of hand. It's fine to joke around but not at the expense of other players or the DM, as this is a game and fun is why we play it.

As for running it, I was originally going to do this for a RL game but I can perhaps do it PbP. I could also see doing it via GameTable or OpenRPG, which are nice and free apps for making it amenable to play online. Text is all fine and good but having an actual map for players to move their pieces about on is better.

This is also still very planning stages and brainstorming, so I can't give a specific time frame at the moment about when it may go on or even if I can get it to a point where I could even feasibly run it. We'll have to see how my RL schedule deals with planning and running such a game.

imp_fireball
2009-10-15, 08:52 PM
Wealth as per 1st level Commoner (it's listed in the DMG with the class)

How much was that again?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-15, 08:58 PM
Organic stat generation is bad. It routinely makes unplayable characters. If you want the fear factor while they are commoners, use the organic generation for the commoner part only, and allow them to regenerate stats once they train out of commoner if they wish via a more normal method.

I guarantee, they will all wish to do so.

imp_fireball
2009-10-15, 09:06 PM
I don't even know what organic stat generation is. Am I missing something?

Tavar
2009-10-15, 09:09 PM
I don't even know what organic stat generation is. Am I missing something?

I believe it's 3d6 in order.

mabriss lethe
2009-10-15, 09:46 PM
On commoners:

I've run a quick commoner game. here's some advice

1. Start them all as at least level 3 commoners. It makes them slightly more likely to actually stay alive for any significant period of time. (ie: a housecat can't 1 shot them)

1a. Things that are nice and give you a little edge in a normal game suddenly have far greater and unexpected impact. races like elves suddenly become more combat oriented with their free weapon proficiencies. Feats you'd never choose in another game suddenly become lifesavers. Allow for heavy retraining later, though

2. Commoner challenges should be less combat-centric. the first one may be "Who's been swiping stuff from the village?" the party tracks a string of petty thefts to a small band of sick and injured goblin commoners mostly elderly, women and children.(each with 1hp.) The party can choose to kill them off as a menace and maybe not die, or perhaps they can negotiate something between them and the other villagers. It sure would be nice to have some skilled foragers and nighttime watchers out in this dangerous world. If only they can be trusted.

3. From there, let them go up a few levels in commoner. Do it quick, Level them up every other session or so. Once they get to level 5, Instead of continuing to level up, they retrain to commoner 4/npc class 1 continue until they're level 5 in their chosen NPC classes. a lot of this mimics or plays off earlier advice. so you get the idea.

It's still going to be a very lethal level of play, with the pcs having to learn how to avoid trouble far more than overcoming it. (commoner maxim, "keep your head low and don't go looking for trouble.")

Hashmir
2009-10-15, 10:41 PM
The lethality is what makes it fun!

And as for stats, I think that there are plenty of fun ways to do it. I wouldn't go for 3d6 straight up without a "shopkeeper" rule -- personally, I'd make everyone roll 4d6 in order.

Actually, scratch that: I'd make everyone roll 3d6 in order and reroll if the total stat benefit isn't in the range of -1 to +1 (numbers might need tweaking, but the point is they're hella low without being entirely unplayable). Then I'd level them comparatively quickly, as described above by me and others. Then I'd give them a bunch of stat gains when they finally hit PC classes (and actually have class features to use them).

I know! Give them an X-point buy, but with their Commoner stats as the baseline instead of 8's. I bet a 25-point buy would bring them to a decent status.

...On the other hand, it occurs to me that being Commoners, the characters probably need fairly high stats to start, to have any hope of getting skill points and compensate for the lack of class features. Perhaps the glorious change will just be the real classes themselves, and not stat gains...

imp_fireball
2009-10-15, 10:48 PM
I believe it's 3d6 in order.

KK

STR - 3d6
DEX - 3d6
CON - 3d6
INT - 3d6
WIS - 3d6
CHA - 3d6

imp_fireball
2009-10-15, 10:50 PM
EDIT: Sonofagun. The rolls aren't working apparently.

Commander_Vimes
2009-10-16, 01:56 AM
This is exactly what the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game tries to do, and does with great success (at least with 1st and 2nd edition, I think 3rd changed a bunch). You start off as the scum of the earth and strive to achieve competence.

Starting careers are things like Servant (a melee career mostly because it has Dodge Blow), Rat Catcher (starts with d6 dead rats on a stick and a small, but fierce, dog) and hypnotist (works about as well as it does in real life). Generation is really random. In a party of eight, six could dance well enough to earn a few coins busking, while only two could read. Skills such as Drive Cart, Blather (literally walking up to someone spouting gibberish to distract them a few seconds), and Rowing, all ended up being integral to plans.

Life is short, and you have to be creative to avoid death. It really encourages role-playing and really inventive planning (personal favorite was the one that started off with "Right, let's flip a coin, heads I stab you. Tails, you stab me.")

Evilfeeds
2009-10-16, 09:21 AM
Not sure how useful this is, but I'll throw this in:

I once ran a highly-lethal commoners game. Players were advised to create lvl 1 commoners with (iirc) 12 point buy, standards races. I think each player had 6 or 7 characters.

Then ran a fairly standard d&d game, except in this case everyone was terrified constantly.

"you see an orc in the distance, coming along the road."
"hide!"
"ok, roll."
"i got a ... 5."
"Orc spots you, and attacks. Orc hits you. 6 damage. You die."

30 seconds later, a new commoner pops up to take the place of the dead guy.

Etc.

The whole thing was incredibly good fun, one my players nearly managed to go through the whole game without dying, another went through all his characters and had to quickly gen a couple more.

Everyone was aware in advance that survival wasnt expected, so it was mostly a lot of fun.

Cieyrin
2009-10-16, 11:47 AM
I believe it's 3d6 in order.

Actually, Organic Stat Generation is described in the DMG pg. 169. You roll 4d6, drop lowest, and write the numbers straight down your stats: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha. Reroll 1 stat of your choice, keeping the new roll if it's higher. Switch 2 stats.

The aim here is that characters are decent but not necessarily designed to your specification. I'm trying to encourage people to try new things and have the characters seem to be a little more random than people are used to and to figure out a strategy to work with for the character.

If a character is truly unplayable and has no strengths to speak of, then I will allow a full reroll of stats. However, just because the character isn't exactly what you expected doesn't make them unplayable. Commoners come in all flavors and people who play should be expected to deal with the unexpected and be creative about it.

Commoner wealth is 5d4 gold. Think cheap and remember you'll probably be sticking around the thorp for quite a while, as 1st level commoners aren't designed for full-blown travel and dungeon delving.

I haven't decided what to do about stat gains, though when you get high enough to advance to a different NPC class, I may grant 1d4 to an appropriate stat as part of retraining and learning the ropes. Warriors can choose a physical stat, Adepts can choose a mental stat, Experts...hmm, Dex, Int or Wis sound good for that? I suppose you can gain half that to a second appropriate stat as well. I'll have to think about that some more.

@imp_fireball: While I appreciate the enthusiasm, but, once again, I'm only in the brainstorming/planning stage. I don't know when this will get anywhere, so I don't want to be disappointing anyone if I don't get this into a workable form.

Hashmir
2009-10-16, 02:58 PM
Sounds like a good setup. As for the stat boosts...

Well, I think we can assume that after the initial stat rolls and swap, the player will know what their eventual base class is going to be. If you treat the NPC classes as "proto-classes," then I guess there are a couple of ways to set up the transitions.

One is to allow any character to go to any NPC class, and then any PC base class. This way, any character can get whatever benefits out of whichever class they like: Do they want a good attack bonus, skill points, or spells? This is also quite simple ruleswise. However...

In a sense, I think this campaign will be defined by its limitations, and by the smooth growth of its characters. Thus, I would propose a sort of "branching path" class system. In the abstract, the idea is to get characters into an NPC class that flows into their future PC class, for both mechanical and role-playing reasons.

Here's how I would implement it if you asked me right now: First I would roughly divide the base classes (using just the PHB for now) into outgrowths of Warrior, Expert, or Adept. For example:

{table]Warrior:|Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin

Expert:|Bard, Monk, Ranger, Rogue

Adept:|Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard[/table]

(Arguments could be made for, say, putting Monk or a two-weapon Ranger in Warrior, but we'll get to that later.)

So, in order to get to a specific base class, you must go through the proper NPC class. Pretty simple, and you could just stop there. But I think a few more modifications could really spice it up.

For starters, look at the Adept. It's the only caster, but it's a divine caster -- doesn't really make sense for a future Wizard or Sorcerer. But if you simply change the way they learn, prepare, and cast spells, it flows beautifully.

Right now, they cast spells like a Druid with a really slow progression -- at level 1, the numbers are exactly the same. So we can just have "Sorcerer" Adepts know a limited number and get more casts/day. "Wizard" Adepts learn all 0-th level spells and X 1st-level spells, and have the regular casts/day. They can all use the same spell list, and the fluff is easy to write out.

Oh, and as for figuring out which classes go together, you could just do it case-by case. Or, if you're offering a major and a minor stat growth, you could let it be self-selecting. Let Warriors get two physical stat growths, let Adepts get two mental stat growths, and let Experts get one of each. I think that would be thematically consistent with the nature of the classes.

ADDENDUM: To make sure Adept is worth it for a caster class, you could consider letting casters "convert" their Adept levels to base class levels for casting purposes. Thus, they could start as a level 1 Wizard with access to 2nd-level Wizard spells, etc. After all, Warriors get to start with a much higher BAB, and Experts get a big leg up on skills. It also keeps them from having two separate casting classes, one of which is sucky.

Cieyrin
2009-10-16, 04:32 PM
I was thinking that when they transition they'd retrain into their new PC class but I suppose that works, too. I mean, I don't think any caster wants to be stuck with commoner levels for all their lives, y'know?

As for Adept, I think I'll allow them to choose their casting stat and spell list to take from. This way, they're not forced to be Wisdom casters on the way up into their future class.

imp_fireball
2009-10-17, 01:08 AM
STR 4d6
DEX 4d6
CON 4d6
INT 4d6
WIS 4d6
CHA 4d6

Why aren't the rolls working? :smalleek:

Hashmir
2009-10-17, 01:54 AM
Yeah, I was specifically thinking of how to work it if the NPC class levels were treated as "pre-level-1." But any system you can devise that abstracts a smooth progression while not unbalancing the real classes relative to each other works just as well (insofar as the real classes are balanced).

Elana
2009-10-17, 02:13 AM
On commoners:

I've run a quick commoner game. here's some advice

1. Start them all as at least level 3 commoners. It makes them slightly more likely to actually stay alive for any significant period of time. (ie: a housecat can't 1 shot them)...

Or just use the wound points rule from unearthed arcana.

Having peole have wound points as highas their con, and vitality points (hit points) on top of it, helps surviving at lower levels.

Hashmir
2009-10-17, 04:20 AM
That could work. It might also make the fights that do occur feel more cinematic-yet-common, if that makes any sense. I mean, hardened adventurers can afford to not worry about the blows that just take a chunk out of their easily-regained hit points. But Commoners have to be able to dodge blows, and getting hurt really hurts.

It also seems like exactly the type of campaign where the healing rules for vitality/wound points would actually be really interesting to play.

Cieyrin
2009-10-17, 10:38 AM
That could work. It might also make the fights that do occur feel more cinematic-yet-common, if that makes any sense. I mean, hardened adventurers can afford to not worry about the blows that just take a chunk out of their easily-regained hit points. But Commoners have to be able to dodge blows, and getting hurt really hurts.

It also seems like exactly the type of campaign where the healing rules for vitality/wound points would actually be really interesting to play.

Hmm, that is a good point. I'll have to look into it, as I'm personally a fan of the Reserve Point system, making characters a little more long lasting without making them extra durable. Not sure if it's appropriate for this particular game but I'll have to have a look, I guess. Where are you, my copy of Unearthed Arcana!


I've a good idea on what to use for a BBEG and its minions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkMvKeX7erI). It'd be a handful for actual first level characters, so for a bunch of commoners, it could shape up to be a truly epic confrontation.

I was actually thinking of making a Magewright BBEG, which I thought was a hillarious idea. Crazy Cat Lady throwing house cats isn't a bad idea, either.


Why aren't the rolls working? :smalleek:

Because this is the roleplaying forum, not the PBP games forum. For the last time, there's no point making a character at this point. I'm just trying to get the mechanics settled, let alone getting NPCs and the initial town set up or what initial plotlines I'm going to go with. I don't even know if I'm going to make this a PBP game, even! Keep this up and I won't let you plan at all, seriouslly.:smallmad:

Hashmir
2009-10-17, 01:20 PM
Well, both the Vitality Point and Reserve Point systems are good for low-power games with little healing, so they're certainly appropriate. I would argue that Vitality Points are better suited for a Commoner campaign, because Reserve Points are designed for easing the strain of many successive battles on parties that are otherwise unable to heal themselves. I think Vitality Points would do a better job of representing the frenzied nature of normally unimpressive battles when everyone's a Commoner.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Cieyrin
2009-10-17, 01:47 PM
Well, both the Vitality Point and Reserve Point systems are good for low-power games with little healing, so they're certainly appropriate. I would argue that Vitality Points are better suited for a Commoner campaign, because Reserve Points are designed for easing the strain of many successive battles on parties that are otherwise unable to heal themselves. I think Vitality Points would do a better job of representing the frenzied nature of normally unimpressive battles when everyone's a Commoner.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Oh I agree, I'm just saying the Reserve Point system isn't necessarily fitting for a Commoner game, for the reasons you pointed out and more.

Bonecrusher Doc
2009-10-17, 01:52 PM
Whatever you end up deciding, may I put in a request to PM me when you start recruiting? I love this kind of game!

Cieyrin
2009-10-17, 02:21 PM
Whatever you end up deciding, may I put in a request to PM me when you start recruiting? I love this kind of game!

If it does end up PBP, I'll probably link it here and then link to wherever from there, so just subscribe, as I'm not gonna remember to PM people requesting to be told. ~_~

Elana
2009-10-17, 03:03 PM
Hmm, that is a good point. I'll have to look into it, as I'm personally a fan of the Reserve Point system, making characters a little more long lasting without making them extra durable. Not sure if it's appropriate for this particular game but I'll have to have a look, I guess. Where are you, my copy of Unearthed Arcana!...

I haven't seen it, but in case it's not just under the sofa, here a link to the appropiate section from the srd
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm

Bonecrusher Doc
2009-10-18, 12:26 AM
If it does end up PBP, I'll probably link it here and then link to wherever from there, so just subscribe, as I'm not gonna remember to PM people requesting to be told. ~_~

Understood.