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Shinizak
2009-10-13, 07:52 PM
Good way to start any conversation, yeah? :smalltongue:

Anyway, He can't die. I can't kill his character at all, and not because he's good at avoiding my obstacles. It's because he's pretty much an abusive player, and if he does die or gets some negative lingering effect he'll yell at us. When confronted about it he denies it (while yelling) and says his mood is because he needs something to eat.

He creates all sorts of "great characters" (cue optimizing fail), runs full throttle into battle, then gets butt hurt when I find his one ((many) weakness(es). He rolls Knowledge arcane checks and demands to know info about a villain, monster, or major plot point that I flat don't want to give out and gets upset when I don't.

He takes lead of the group tells them what to do and holds his victories above the other players heads for weeks, while pointing out others flawed actions for weeks (any time he does something stupid it's because "he's only human"). And will barge in on other people's private solo missions and talk crap about the players action RIGHT THERE!!!

I would kick him out but I owe him money, and he knows it. What do I do?

DementedFellow
2009-10-13, 07:54 PM
Pay him the money and kick him out?

Hat-Trick
2009-10-13, 07:54 PM
Pay his money and kick him out.

EDIT: Damn my low wisdom! I hate Ninjas!

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 07:54 PM
Wow...sounds like a real winner.

If possible, I would suggest paying him back asap, if that's interfering with your relationships.

Perhaps a bit of talking regarding teamwork might be in order as well? If he's hungry, bring snacks, or eat before the game, but it's hardly an excuse to screw with your friends.

Shinizak
2009-10-13, 07:55 PM
I will, but it'll take time. What can I do in the mean time?

Gorgondantess
2009-10-13, 07:56 PM
Pay back the money, and kick him. Or, just kick him. What does owing him money have to do with it? It's not like he can say "you owe me another thousand dollars because you kicked me from your group" or something like that.

Okay, so maybe if you kick him he'll want to collect faster and harass you about it... but, hey, if you owe money you owe money. Besides, if he's going to harass you, make sure he does it on his own time, not your and your friend's time.:smalltongue:

Coidzor
2009-10-13, 07:56 PM
That doesn't sound like a friend at all.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 07:57 PM
I take it the word friend is being used loosely here. =)

It so often is when a story begins that way.

Paulus
2009-10-13, 07:57 PM
Good way to start any conversation, yeah? :smalltongue:

Anyway, He can't die. I can't kill his character at all, and not because he's good at avoiding my obstacles. It's because he's pretty much an abusive player, and if he does die or gets some negative lingering effect he'll yell at us. When confronted about it he denies it (while yelling) and says his mood is because he needs something to eat.

He creates all sorts of "great characters" (cue optimizing fail), runs full throttle into battle, then gets butt hurt when I find his one ((many) weakness(es). He rolls Knowledge arcane checks and demands to know info about a villain, monster, or major plot point that I flat don't want to give out and gets upset when I don't.

He takes lead of the group tells them what to do and holds his victories above the other players heads for weeks, while pointing out others flawed actions for weeks (any time he does something stupid it's because "he's only human"). And will barge in on other people's private solo missions and talk crap about the players action RIGHT THERE!!!

I would kick him out but I owe him money, and he knows it. What do I do?

If you have already talked to him about his behavior and he refuses to listen.
Well you have two options, option one is if you really really want to keep him around. It involves sitting him down alone, and telling him you can't tolerate his type of behavior anymore in game or out of game. He has anger issues and is very abuse to everyone. If he can not change his ways you will have to insist that he doesn't contact you again. You'd like to help, you really would, but if he doesn't listen, you can't do anything more and he needs to leave. Thank you.

or two, "Please, leave. I will pay you back in time. Through mail, but you can not play anymore. We do not want you here. Please leave."
Walk to the door. Hold it open, listen to nothing he says. Simply wait for him to leave, if he does not. Call police.

Life is far to short to let ANYONE ruin your fun. You tried. Move on.

Shinizak
2009-10-13, 08:05 PM
I was afraid you were going to say that. He used to be a cool guy when he first started.

<=[

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 08:08 PM
People change. Sometimes, people don't even realize they've changed. Talking to him frankly about it might fix the issue...but if not, you need a backup plan.

Paulus
2009-10-13, 08:19 PM
I was afraid you were going to say that. He used to be a cool guy when he first started.

<=[

Again two options.

1) realize that SOME people put their best foot forward. Always. Only when they have hooked you on the deception that they are like one way, do their true colors appear. Sometimes it can take years, sometimes it can take seconds. It all depends on the layers of defenses the person puts up. There is honestly nothing you can do about it, especially if are not a close enough friend for him to bring the cause to you outside of D&D. You can only hope he gets better and protect yourself and the group from his lashings out at the world. You shouldn't have to suffer because he doesn't know how to deal with his own life. Move. on.

2) if you indeed have been his friend, if you indeed have known him for so long, or if indeed he has been a childhood friend... then I would certainly spot this as a non D&D related problem. In which case, he doesn't need to be exposed to your group until whatever problems he has can be settled. By you and he, or someone else. Give him a probation period, work with him on solving whatever is causing the troubles in his life that cause him to unleash his emotions upon you and your game and your group. D&D can be wonderful therapy... but it is a group effort, and selfish of him to expect everyone else to allow for his suffering.

However much you love this person depends on your next actions. But however much you love him, it is not enough to harm your group for it. Do not include them. Either way. This person needs to step away from the table, and step toward his life.

Unless you give me more specifics I can not be deeper then that. And I doubt such things would need be discusses on this forum anyway. Thus, I hope whatever may come of this is positive, and you and your group can play in peace. Together, or otherwise.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-13, 08:24 PM
An alternative idea (depending on exactly how much money you owe this guy):

Talk to your other friends about it. If they all feel the same way as you do, and understand that you can't afford to pay what you owe, see if they will all chip in to pay your debt off so you all can be rid of this guy.

The end result: You now owe money to all of your actual friends, who you can still stand to be around, and you can solve your problem and never have to see this other guy again. Ever.

Ranos
2009-10-13, 08:35 PM
I'm not gonna comment on the whole issue since we only have one side of the story, but there are a few things I think he had right.
-Knowledge checks should not be denied for "plot reasons". If he succeeds in his knowledge check, he damn well better know stuff about the monster of the week.
-Solo missions are usually a bad idea. What else do you expect him to do, just sit here doing nothing for an hour ?

You should probably ask him why he keeps whining about stuff. Maybe he has a legitimate concern about you singling him out (I mean, you did say you've been specifically trying to "find his weaknesses"). The money issue should be solved asap though.

More importantly, maybe you should talk to the other players about it. If you've got consensus, doesn't matter who's right, he gets kicked out.

Shinizak
2009-10-13, 08:46 PM
I'm not gonna comment on the whole issue since we only have one side of the story, but there are a few things I think he had right.
-Knowledge checks should not be denied for "plot reasons". If he succeeds in his knowledge check, he damn well better know stuff about the monster of the week.
-Solo missions are usually a bad idea. What else do you expect him to do, just sit here doing nothing for an hour ?

You should probably ask him why he keeps whining about stuff. Maybe he has a legitimate concern about you singling him out (I mean, you did say you've been specifically trying to "find his weaknesses"). The money issue should be solved asap though.

More importantly, maybe you should talk to the other players about it. If you've got consensus, doesn't matter who's right, he gets kicked out.

True, I do actively look for a way to hurt his super builds, maybe I should stop that, but the money thing will be solved ASAP.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 08:54 PM
-Knowledge checks should not be denied for "plot reasons". If he succeeds in his knowledge check, he damn well better know stuff about the monster of the week.

This is actually a good point, yeah. Any time standard abilities get denied due to plot, players tend to get upset. And, in my experience, upset or bored players generally look for the easiest way available to shake things up. The easiest thing available is generally screwing with the DM.

Thurbane
2009-10-13, 08:56 PM
Anyone who is only kept in a game becuase you owe them something is not someone I would like to game with. I would take him aside and try to have a civilized discussions about the problems he causes in the game. How do the other players feel about him?

Long story short, if the issue can't be resolved and he is making the game un-fun for you and the other players, politely ask him to leave - oweing someone money is not a reason to let them walk all over you. It's a totally seperate issue as to whther he is invited to your game or not.

Shinizak
2009-10-13, 09:00 PM
This is actually a good point, yeah. Any time standard abilities get denied due to plot, players tend to get upset. And, in my experience, upset or bored players generally look for the easiest way available to shake things up. The easiest thing available is generally screwing with the DM.

He makes them to know the weaknesses of monsters, to know what spell I'm using, and the worst one was he was trying to learn how to use a scroll of true Resurrection as a fighter (he refused) to let the cleric use it since it was "his" scroll (even though the bard found it).

xPANCAKEx
2009-10-13, 09:02 PM
run a seperate game for the fun players, then until you can pay him back, run an easy game for that... as long as the rest understand its a smokescreen they'll be fine with it

edit: and how much do you owe him?

Ranos
2009-10-13, 09:05 PM
He makes them to know the weaknesses of monsters, to know what spell I'm using, and the worst one was he was trying to learn how to use a scroll of true Resurrection as a fighter (he refused) to let the cleric use it since it was "his" scroll (even though the bard found it).

Well then that's just bad knowledge of the rules. Knowing the weaknesses of monsters is fair, that's how the skill should be used. Knowing what spell you're using is a spellcraft check. Using a scroll is a Use magic device check. Just take a moment to both read the rules and the problem might go away.

root9125
2009-10-13, 09:06 PM
He makes them to know the weaknesses of monsters, to know what spell I'm using, and the worst one was he was trying to learn how to use a scroll of true Resurrection as a fighter (he refused) to let the cleric use it since it was "his" scroll (even though the bard found it).

Those things are, in order: usually accepted, extremely often accepted, and not accepted. Not so bad, really.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 09:07 PM
He makes them to know the weaknesses of monsters, to know what spell I'm using, and the worst one was he was trying to learn how to use a scroll of true Resurrection as a fighter (he refused) to let the cleric use it since it was "his" scroll (even though the bard found it).

The first one is a completely appropriate use of a knowledge skill. Now, it depends on the knowledge skill and the monster as to if he'll get anything from it, but it's something that's certainly possible, depending on the monster.

Knowing what spell you're using...spellcraft. Scroll, well, sure, a knowledge arcana check might let him know about the scroll, but he still needs UMD to actually use it.

He might just need a refresher on which skill does what...and yeah, players often lobby for questionable uses of skills.



Definitely don't keep someone in a game just cause you owe them money, though. Trust me, in the long run, it'll be worse off for everyone, including you.

Shinizak
2009-10-13, 09:09 PM
Well then that's just bad knowledge of the rules. Knowing the weaknesses of monsters is fair, that's how the skill should be used. Knowing what spell you're using is a spellcraft check. Using a scroll is a Use magic device check. Just take a moment to both read the rules and the problem might go away.

But he uses them for EVERYTHING. and I DO mean everything. He once tried to use it to know who the king's killer was.:smallannoyed:

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 09:11 PM
Worth a shot. I mean, if magic was involved, it's possible it could provide info.

Put it this way, if I were a character without spellcraft...and as a fighter, I would be, since it's cross class, and they get jack for skill points, I'd attempt to use it to identify spells too.

I'm not saying you *should* toss him the identity of the killer for it, just know that it's not that unusual for players to try to shoehorn their skills into the situation however possible. Especially those poor bastards with nearly no skills to begin with.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-13, 09:14 PM
But he uses them for EVERYTHING. and I DO mean everything. He once tried to use it to know who the king's killer was.:smallannoyed:

"You have no idea." Problem solved.

root9125
2009-10-13, 09:18 PM
But he uses them for EVERYTHING. and I DO mean everything. He once tried to use it to know who the king's killer was.:smallannoyed:

Dude, you're getting way too easily annoyed. Really. Players have no good reason NOT to try to do these things. Now, if he's getting angsty when he fails, that's lame, but otherwise, no big deal.

Superglucose
2009-10-13, 09:19 PM
Do what my friend does.

"Knowledge Arcana: "Who killed the king?" ... 35!"

"Your intense studies in the field of magic have lead you to realize that the king could have indeed been killed by someone who was able to wield arcane magic."

(of course, this by no means means anything since a Wizard can cut your throat just as well as anyone else (NO! Coup de grace in my games are DEATH, NO SAVE! Bad D&D rules :P))

Fluffles
2009-10-13, 09:19 PM
Kick him out and keep the money as a sanity tax.

Vangor
2009-10-13, 09:23 PM
Anyway, He can't die. I can't kill his character at all, and not because he's good at avoiding my obstacles. It's because he's pretty much an abusive player, and if he does die or gets some negative lingering effect he'll yell at us.

He is being a child about an inevitability in game. Tell him to shut up if he begins yelling, and tell him to learn from his mistakes.


He creates all sorts of "great characters" (cue optimizing fail), runs full throttle into battle, then gets butt hurt when I find his one ((many) weakness(es).

If you are purposefully seeking his weaknesses encounter to encounter, stop. Now, you say many which leads me to believe he falls prey to obvious tactics, but, if not, unless the opponent has been observant, is entirely too knowledgeable, or has had the time necessary to test in combat trying to metagame against him is an aggravating move unless agreed upon by both people involved.


He rolls Knowledge arcane checks and demands to know info about a villain, monster, or major plot point that I flat don't want to give out and gets upset when I don't.

Meh, Knowledge:Arcane gives decent information but only truly about objects or monsters which one might possess knowledge of. While you should refrain from not giving information by fiat, even with the host of Knowledge skills there are still gaps in what is known and there always exists information beyond what can merely be known with study.

Shinizak
2009-10-13, 09:24 PM
Dude, you're getting way too easily annoyed. Really. Players have no good reason NOT to try to do these things. Now, if he's getting angsty when he fails, that's lame, but otherwise, no big deal.

It's not that he gets angsty, it's that he yells and yells.

root9125
2009-10-13, 09:27 PM
It's not that he gets angsty, it's that he yells and yells.

Ah. Then yes, that is an absurdity. I apologize for my statement to the contrary.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-13, 09:27 PM
Yellfests are sorta a game killer. If it's a screaming match due to a skill check...yeah, somethings gone horribly wrong, and the private talk needs to happen.

Superglucose
2009-10-13, 09:29 PM
Oh man, I know what you mean. There was this one guy who'd scream and yell at us if we tried to roleplay ("It's MY TURN! LET ME TALK!") which netted us an experience loss (losing roleplay xp since we couldn't roleplay) and who'd scream and yell at us in combat ("WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT YOU IDIOT?!") despite the fact that he was, without a doubt, always playing the most useless character in the party and preforming the most useless actions saying "Well it's what my character would do."

I stopped playing with him, and I no longer dread going to game!

Jade_Tarem
2009-10-13, 09:43 PM
To mitigate the problem short term:

Bring food, and the next time he yells, ask him why he's so upset. He can't use the food excuse, since there's food right there, so he'll either tell you what's really bothering him or he won't. If he does, work with that. If he doesn't, then boot him.

Don't actively set out to ruin his character's day, unless the enemy has had time to study the party and could know his weaknesses.

Take a refresher on what skills do what. Knowledge(Arcana) might give information about a wizard or a dragon, but does not give tips on fighting undead - Knowledge(Religion) does that, among other things.

Similarly, Knowledge(Arcana) won't give him the king's killer, but Knowledge(Local) or Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty) should at least give a hint if the roll was high enough - and if it provides no info, then that should be a hint that the king had no local or political enemies, and that something wierd is going on.

If he wants to take shortcuts through tedious investigations, you should recommend that he put ranks in Gather Information.

To fix the problem long term:

Now, it seems to me that the real problem is that he tries to solve his problems through being louder and more aggressive than everyone else. He, like many other terrible players, is aiming to win DnD, having not yet realized that he can't do that if no one else is having fun.

Next time he starts yelling, just sit there and stare at him until he comes to the realization that his behavior is unacceptable. When he stops yelling, ask him, calmly, "Are you through?" If he wants to keep yelling, just stare again, and every time he stops, ask him if he's done yet. When he catches on, try to begin a civil discussion. Use brutal, cold logic, and nothing else, in your arguments. Dig out the rules as often as you have to, and refer him to Rule 0 whenever he tries to tell you that you can't do something. Normally this would slow down a game, but at this point I don't think you have anything to lose. If he's not interested in listening, boot him.

For his lording stuff over the other players, the correct response is to remind him, every time he does it, that each member of the party gets an even share of the loot and xp regardless, and that if he's chopping more heads it means he's working harder, not smarter. If that doesn't work, then just tell him to knock it off, plainly and to his face. If that doesn't work, boot him.

Really, my suggestion would be to take everyone else's advice and kick him now, but you seem reluctant to do that, so I've tried to offer some advice in reigning him in.

Shinizak
2009-10-13, 09:55 PM
Really, my suggestion would be to take everyone else's advice and kick him now, but you seem reluctant to do that, so I've tried to offer some advice in reigning him in.

Thanks, I'll try that. And yeah, I'll for sure kick him out.

RandomLunatic
2009-10-13, 10:15 PM
You could try having your tolerable players loan you the money the need to pay the loudmouth off, then kick him to the curb.

Or, if you are really cunning, start a donation drive for the "Get rid of the annoying d-bag" fund.:smallwink:

valadil
2009-10-13, 10:24 PM
Owing him money does not mean he gets to ruin your game. Punt him.

If he's really an ass (and depending on the amount of money involved) you could get the other players to pool some cash together to pay him back and kick him out.

Sliver
2009-10-13, 11:47 PM
When confronted about it he denies it (while yelling) and says his mood is because he needs something to eat.

Give the man something to eat! Get some munchies at the table. You don't have to do it all the time yourself, you can just pass the responsibility so everybody need to chip in. But get the food. ASAP!

sadi
2009-10-14, 01:11 AM
Assuming this is 3.x, he's a fighter if I've read correctly, Knowledge skills are trained only. So unless he has a high int or is ignoring class skills he can't have many ranks in them. That is if he's not just blatantly cheating and just using them untrained. Same thing for spellcraft, first tell him that's the skill used to figure out what's being cast and if he actually put points into it then he has the right to use the skill when appropriate, otherwise he's out of luck. As for you can't kill him. Roll the dice out in the open and if they come up saying he died because he did something completely stupid, then he should die. Maybe that way he'll get the idea and put a little though into the game. I doubt it since it sounds like he's a complete jerk, but one can hope.

Thurbane
2009-10-14, 01:55 AM
Owing him money does not mean he gets to ruin your game. Punt him.
This. Very much so, if you can't resolve the issues.

pasko77
2009-10-14, 02:22 AM
Again two options.

1) realize that SOME people put their best foot forward. Always. Only when they have hooked you on the deception that they are like one way, do their true colors appear. Sometimes it can take years, sometimes it can take seconds. It all depends on the layers of defenses the person puts up. There is honestly nothing you can do about it, especially if are not a close enough friend for him to bring the cause to you outside of D&D. You can only hope he gets better and protect yourself and the group from his lashings out at the world. You shouldn't have to suffer because he doesn't know how to deal with his own life. Move. on.


These are very wise words. They do also apply to a personal case of mine, so I would also suggest to move on.

sambo.
2009-10-14, 02:33 AM
That doesn't sound like a friend at all.

^
this.

kick him out of the group (assuming the rest of teh group shares your feelings on the matter).

and pay him back. if you borrow $$$, you owe $$$.

matters not in which order you do this, but it seems like these are two things that should be high on your personal To Do list.

Leon
2009-10-14, 07:49 AM
If he is causing problems ask him to buck up or leave, weather you owe him money or not has no bearing on him to cause problems for you and other people at a gathering.

If after you pay him back and he is still a Ass then Sever connections and live a better life for it

Guinea Anubis
2009-10-14, 08:28 AM
*snip*


these are some very wise words

Jayabalard
2009-10-14, 09:07 AM
Pay him the money and kick him out?I'd say kick him out, and then pay him back.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-14, 10:34 AM
He rolls Knowledge arcane checks and demands to know info about a villain, monster, or major plot point that I flat don't want to give out and gets upset when I don't.

He has a point here. It is part of the rules.
Just tell the group you are houseruling the knowledge rules if you don't want them to use them.