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penbed400
2009-10-14, 02:44 AM
Like many others I was scanning through Complete Warrior and spotted the Drunken Master PrC and thought, "Hey cool!" Then realized that it was pretty much based on monks and remembered that monks suck...But do they? I've never played a monk before and thought I would try to work out a good build to strive for with it.

I make plenty of mistakes building characters and whatnot and I'm not really the best at telling whether something is optimized or not. So I ask you guys, does this character seem workable? Hopefully the link will work.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=160033

Edwin
2009-10-14, 02:52 AM
Well you certainly seems to have a pretty good set of stats.

62 AC is quite decent, if slightly moot at higher levels, and a 26 to hit is a pretty solid hit, usually.

Monks and Drunker Masters are not really my strong suit, but I'd say it looks about right.

sadi
2009-10-14, 11:27 AM
I'd like to know how you got those stats, and that 62 ac with vow of poverty.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-14, 11:32 AM
Like many others I was scanning through Complete Warrior and spotted the Drunken Master PrC and thought, "Hey cool!" Then realized that it was pretty much based on monks and remembered that monks suck...But do they? I've never played a monk before and thought I would try to work out a good build to strive for with it.

I make plenty of mistakes building characters and whatnot and I'm not really the best at telling whether something is optimized or not. So I ask you guys, does this character seem workable? Hopefully the link will work.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=160033

Drunken Master requires drinking alcohol, but VoP can't buy them. So can't combine.

Telonius
2009-10-14, 11:52 AM
Drunken Master requires drinking alcohol, but VoP can't buy them. So can't combine.

So make it a high-charisma female monk, and send her up to the local tavern. :smallbiggrin:

Choco
2009-10-14, 12:11 PM
So make it a high-charisma female monk, and send her up to the local tavern. :smallbiggrin:

Or get your friends to treat you :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 12:14 PM
Or get your friends to treat you :smallbiggrin:

You could take a page out of the movies and walk around with a wineskin and just ask for a filling in each tavern you run across; if someone tries to charge you, make them understand it was a willing donation. I don't remember "Jackie" ever paying for his wine, for one.

subject42
2009-10-14, 12:15 PM
Drunken Master requires drinking alcohol, but VoP can't buy them. So can't combine.

Craft (Brewing)?

jokey665
2009-10-14, 12:19 PM
Craft (Brewing)?

Profession (Brewmaster, Brewmaster, Brewmaster)?

Massive massive kudos if you get the reference.

penbed400
2009-10-14, 06:04 PM
I'd like to know how you got those stats, and that 62 ac with vow of poverty.

VoP gives 3 deflection bonus, 10 exalted ac, 3 natural stacked armor

Monk gives 1 AC, +wis to ac

Saint gives wis to ac again

Drunken Master gives 2 for ac boost and 2 for dodge, so 2 of the ac is situational but I wasn't sure how to really put that in there

Feral for 6 natural armor

5 for dex

AC = 62 = 10(base)+10(wisdom for saint)+10(wisdom for monk)+10(exalted)+2(drunken master)+1(monk)+2(situational dodge bonus)+6(feral natural)+3(exalted natural)+3(deflection)+5(dex)

If I counted that right

EDIT: Oh yea and for stats, I figured he'd have a tough time when I made him in the beginning since Monks are so MAD so I gave him an auto 18 to plug in to anywhere and then randomly rolled the rest. So I rolled and got a 10, 8, 16, 18(set), 16 and 16. The online dice roller was very nice to me.

Str: 28= 16(base)+4(feral)+6(lolth-touched)+2(exalted)
Dex: 20= 16(base)-2(feral)+6(exalted)
Con: 32= 16(base)+2(levels)+2(feral)+2(saint)+6(lolth-touched)+4(exalted)
Int: 6 = 8(base)+2(levels)-4(feral)
Wis: 30 = 18(base)+8(exalted)+2(feral)+2(saint)
Cha: 14 = 10(base)+4(saint)

Tar Palantir
2009-10-14, 06:08 PM
I don't think Wis to AC stacks from multiple sources. Plus, there's a space for natural armor. Even so, at that level an AC in the 40s should be quite effective, so it doesn't hurt you too much if I'm correct (which I'm not 100% sure I am, mind you).

Dixieboy
2009-10-14, 06:34 PM
Drunken Master requires drinking alcohol, but VoP can't buy them. So can't combine.

Why?
I only remember problem with magic items and high value stuff; but it's been a long time since i read VOP.

penbed400
2009-10-14, 06:40 PM
I don't think Wis to AC stacks from multiple sources. Plus, there's a space for natural armor. Even so, at that level an AC in the 40s should be quite effective, so it doesn't hurt you too much if I'm correct (which I'm not 100% sure I am, mind you).

They do stack since the saint template gives the wisdom bonus to AC as an insight bonus whereas the monk gets wisdom bonus to AC for...well I don't think it's specified really. I guess it would be a DM call for whether or not he viewed the monk bonus as an insight bonus or not. I would see them as two seperate things as per RAI but I can see how it wouldn't. I'm not sure what you mean by there's a space for natural armor.

Indeed....indeed

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-14, 06:45 PM
Got some news for you: The class isn't that good, even with VoP. Especially with VoP (I'm refering to the Druken Master, everyone all ready knows about the Monk).


The class gives you largely irrelevant abilities, and then gives you an ability that penalizes one of your most important stats (Wisdom). It gives you Flurry of Blows with Improvesed Weapons, but those are inherently inferior to your Unarmed Strikes (and cannot be used with VoP due to a restriction on weaponry). finally, the DM may impose house rules regarding alcohol that render you unplayable (if they are anything like the WFRP rules, or the rules presented in the Arms and Equipment Guide, you won't be able to use the class at all for various reasons).


Oh, and the cure effect from drinking booze? You can get the same ability 5 times/day as a 7th level Cleric. Without paying for the booze.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-14, 06:48 PM
Why?
I only remember problem with magic items and high value stuff; but it's been a long time since i read VOP.

Yep, any a simple weapon (doesn't matter if Heavy Xbow you can get it), clothes (starting ones), and 1 days worth of food at all times (can't stock up). One non-magical bag to carry food, ect.

No drink is allowed to be bought (have to find water or create water if a Cleric I guess).
No RAI might allow drinks to be bought, but RAW is pretty strict.

penbed400
2009-10-14, 07:07 PM
Yep, any a simple weapon (doesn't matter if Heavy Xbow you can get it), clothes (starting ones), and 1 days worth of food at all times (can't stock up). One non-magical bag to carry food, ect.

No drink is allowed to be bought (have to find water or create water if a Cleric I guess).
No RAI might allow drinks to be bought, but RAW is pretty strict.

It doesn't say no drink is allowed to be bought anywhere in the text I've seen, nor does it define poverty though that description seems fairly accurate to the idea they had for it. I mean yes it makes sense that you shouldn't have a lot of stuff but saying that you get nothing screws over casters and they attempted to compensate for that with the spending of XP for material components or having party members buy them for the caster. I don't see how this couldn't work for a Drunken Master as well seeing as it is compensating in the same manner basically. Nor does the PrC for Drunken Master say that he needs to constantly be inebriated. In fact Drunken Boxing is just the fighting style of staggering and flowing as if inebriated, though it can be done as such. So it's not as if he needs to drink constantly. He can very well just say this:

Drunken Master: You guys can have half of my share of the party treasure if you may be so gracious as to buy me a drink now and again. The other half of my share shall go to the (insert local charity here). Deal?
Rogue: DID YOU SAY MORE TREASURE!?!!?!??!

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-14, 07:08 PM
Don't take more than 4 levels of Drunken Master. That's the best advice I can give you.

The other bit of advice is to pick up Poison Healer after taking Great Fortitude, and Karmic Strike after Dodge.

Mongoose87
2009-10-14, 07:12 PM
How can you be both a Saint and Lolth touched? Don't those need opposite alignments? At the least Exalted Feats do.

penbed400
2009-10-14, 07:15 PM
How can you be both a Saint and Lolth touched? Don't those need opposite alignments? At the least Exalted Feats do.

Meh, I kinda homebrewed for that, made it Monkey-Blessed. All the same mechanics, Neutral Good alignment change. Same idea behind it, I wasn't sure if it really would matter. I just used Lolth-Touched for reference here because it would make no sense if I said Monkey-Blessed.

Mongoose87
2009-10-14, 07:19 PM
Meh, I kinda homebrewed for that, made it Monkey-Blessed. All the same mechanics, Neutral Good alignment change. Same idea behind it, I wasn't sure if it really would matter. I just used Lolth-Touched for reference here because it would make no sense if I said Monkey-Blessed.

I think that's cheating :smalltongue:

Darrin
2009-10-14, 11:47 PM
The class gives you largely irrelevant abilities, and then gives you an ability that penalizes one of your most important stats (Wisdom). It gives you Flurry of Blows with Improvesed Weapons, but those are inherently inferior to your Unarmed Strikes (and cannot be used with VoP due to a restriction on weaponry). finally, the DM may impose house rules regarding alcohol that render you unplayable (if they are anything like the WFRP rules, or the rules presented in the Arms and Equipment Guide, you won't be able to use the class at all for various reasons).


I've tried to put together a decent Drunken Master build several times but... ugh.

A dip into Incarnate (Strongheart Vest, Impulse Boots for evasion) or Binder (Naberius) can cancel out or reduce the Int/Wis penalties while leaving the bonuses intact. Take some levels of Psychic Warrior for expansion, which allows a dip into Hulking Hurler to reduce the improvised penalty to -2 (as would the City Brawler Barbarian variant).

There's also a Brawler PrC in Dragon #295 that works amazingly well for Drunken Masters, although the requirements are annoying (BAB +7, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Imp. Unarmed Strike). 1st level removes the -4 improvised penalty entirely. 2nd level allows you to apply weapon-specific feats (such as Weapon Focus) to improvised weapons.

I think I was noodling around with Monk 2/PsyWar 4/Incarnate 1/DM 2/HH 1/DM +1/Brawler 2/DM +7, but I gave up when I realized that Drunken Master doesn't advance your unarmed strike damage, and the bonus damage on improvised weapons wasn't enough to make up for that. Every time I tried to rework the build, it came out much much better when I removed all the Monk and Drunken Master levels (which eventually led me to the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5897646)).

There is a way to fix the unarmed damage scaling, but it required a lot of reworking... You can use Superior Unarmed Strike to get damage that scales up by your character level, but you have to remove *all* monk levels and get a monk's unarmed strike from something like Battledancer or Fist of the Forest, then you need two levels of Totemist for Totem Avatar, and Improved Natural Attack. Oh, and you need flurry... from Shou Disciple (which requires some extremely wonky 3.0->3.5 interpretations) or Disciple of the Eye. So...

Totemist 2/PsyWar 4/DotE 1/HH 1/FotF 3/DM 9? Can't quite fit it all in.

Rising Phoenix
2009-10-15, 12:00 AM
Str: 28= 16(base)+4(feral)+6(lolth-touched)+2(exalted)
Dex: 20= 16(base)-2(feral)+6(exalted)
Con: 32= 16(base)+2(levels)+2(feral)+2(saint)+6(lolth-touched)+4(exalted)
Int: 6 = 8(base)+2(levels)-4(feral)
Wis: 30 = 18(base)+8(exalted)+2(feral)+2(saint)
Cha: 14 = 10(base)+4(saint)

Ummm.... Lolth touched AND vow of poverty? Even if you were original a lolth-touched creature that god redeemed, I seriously doubt Lolt would still bestow her 'blessings' on you...


Edit: Ignore that. Read the explanation later down...which I also would call cheatin' :smalltongue:

R.P.

Mongoose87
2009-10-15, 12:20 AM
*queue Fistbeard Beardfist plug*

EDIT: Could a workable Monk/Drunken Master build be done with the Ascetic Mage feat? I can't really think of an appropriate casting class, off-hand. A bard houseruled to be lawful?

Keld Denar
2009-10-15, 12:56 AM
Needs more Fist of the Forest + Deepwarden. Because brewing moonshine from fungi makes you more potent in battle life.

I'll see your 2x Wisdom to AC and add in 2x Con to AC as well!

Also, stacking effective size increases for fun AND proffit!

Huzzah!

Devilboy
2009-10-15, 02:57 AM
Don't forget, if you can get size increases, you can hold a person one-handed in a grapple (at a penalty). You have improvised weapon prof, so they count as a weapon, and your allies can attempt to sunder the weapon, or you can just smack other people with a person, and on a 1? The 'weapon' "breaks and becomes useless" :P Up to you and the DM how to interpret that line...